OU Moves To Publish New Soleveitchik Siddur With Koren

Move seen by some as a response to Artscroll's policy of not citing (or not attributing material to) Modern Orthodox rabbis Like Joseph Soleveitchik.

In April, the JTA reported on the controversy surrounding the debut of the Sacks Siddur, also published jointly by the OU and Koren. The JTA reported that

ArtScroll also has approached the O.U. about publishing a forthcoming siddur based on Soloveitchik's writings, according to O.U. officials.

Artscroll didn't get the gig.

Like the Sacks Siddur that includes the commentary of England's Modern Orthodox Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sachs, the Soleveitchik Siddur is being published by Koren and is due out in Spring 2010, along with a separate volume of Kinnot and commentary for Tisha B'Av.

 

When asked by the JTA last April why Artscroll's books rarely quote Modern Orthodox sources like Rabbi Soleveitchik, ArtScroll cofounder Rabbi Nosson Scherman replied:

“It's not a question of trying to include as many names as you can for the sake of popularity,” Scherman said. “It's a matter of trying to clarify the material.”

Somehow those "clarifications" are 99.9% haredi. Koren has changed that.

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Comments

[seymour]

Move seen by some as a response to Artscroll's policy of not citing (or not attributing material to) Modern Orthodox rabbis Like Joseph Soleveitchik

I am not sure I understand. did they just not include stuff. or did they include stuff and not sire who it was from

[Reb Doniel]

To further counter Artscroll, I have an idea: another publisher should create an English series of Gemara commentaries, basically giving a translation of all of the major rishonim and acharonim on each daf (figure 10-15 pages of commentary on each daf. There would be a translation and explanation of Rashi, Tosafot, Rambam and his commentators, Ran, Rashba, Rosh, Ramban, and others, followed by the Gra, Bach, Tzlach, Pnei Yehoshua, Avnei Nezer, Chiddushei HaRim, relevant poskim and responsa, and then works from the roshei yeshiva, such as the Briskers, Rav Gustman, Birkat Shmuel, Kovetz Shiurim, and others. That would be a goldmine to whoever put out such a work. Figure each tractate would have 3-4 volumes, and you charge a decent amount for each volume. I am dreaming here!)

[Shmarya]

I am not sure I understand. did they just not include stuff. or did they include stuff and not sire who it was

Both.

[seymour]

then it is unethical since you must site you source or give reference to it.

I had to do it for college

[Honestly Frum]

Artscroll is unethical in many of the things it does, including the "biographies" of the gedolim which are full of lies and revisionism.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

The Koren Sachs Siddur is a beautiful looking work from which to pray and I'm glad they offer such important commentary from a MO rav. However, I have to give Artscroll credit where due: they still have an excellent set of pronunciation marks (notated shva and stress, although no kamats katan) and prayer instructions that are a wealth of information. The Koren work chooses visual form over function sometimes, as well explained and argued by the editor at the their site forum.

[Pablo Faird]

Honestly Frum:
When making such accusations, please include examples/proof of what you post. It would be unethical not to do so.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

While Sir Jonathan Sucks tries to portray himself as Modern Orthodox he reuses to accept children as Jewish where the parent has an Israeli Orthodox conversion from particular municipalities.

[A. Nuran]

If they're using his work without attribution they aren't just unethical. They may well be in violation of several laws and could face civil and criminal action.

[Ben]

RabbiSir Jonathan Saks has number of serious faults. His policy in regards to Israeli converts being one of them. I for one would never take a siddur with the name of this "gentlemen" in my hands. Much less I am ready to sponsor the works of this scoundrel by purchasing a book which he has authored.

[yudel]

Horale Pablo,
Busca las mentiras online.

[alternative childcare]

Thanks heavens. Aside from all their crazy politics, the artscroll hebrew font is cheap and ugly.

[Dave Marshall]

Reb Doniel,
I have the ultimate dream- a new edition of Mikra'ot Gedolot of the entire Tanach,
citing Karaite sages as well as Samaritan sages (obviously for Samaritan sages it would only go from Bereshit to Joshua) as well as Rishonim and Acharonim and MO, and even Conservative and Reform rabbis. Except only Peshat and Derash interpretations (No Remez and No Sod), and No mystical interpretations ie. No Chassidus intepretations.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sachs, drugs, and rock and roll...

[WAKE UP GUYS]

guys
artscroll cites the rav extensively in the stone edition ofthechumash and already distributes the K'hal publishing Masores Horav machzor on rosh hashana and yom kippur they did not get this gig...because

THEY ARE PRINTING THE NEW RCA SIDDUR (VERY VER MO BY RABBI BILLET) WHICH IS FORTHCOMING!!!!!!

[alternative childcare]

Dave Marshall: That's your "ultimate" dream?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Every day I write the frum (Apologies to Elvis Costello)

Don't tell me you don't know what torah is
When you're old enough to know bupkes
When you find strange hands on your touchus
When your rabbinate turns out to be a footnote
I'm a Yid with a mission in two or three editions

[Chorus:]
And I'm wearing a yeshivish look
Everyday, everyday, everyday I write the frum

Chapter One Artscroll was much too frum
Chapter Two I want a Modern Ortho Jew
You said you'd learn with me in the middle of Chapter Three
But you were up to your meshugas in Chapters Four, Five and Six

[chorus]

The way you shuckle
The way you daven, and try to to learn a daf
In four or five paragraphs
All your kashas and your cutting remarks
Are captured here in my quotation marks

[chorus]

Don't tell me you don't know the difference
Between a lamdan and a commuter
With my pen and my J&R computer
Even in oylam habah where everyone is on a roll
I'd still owe the frum right who are working on the Artscroll

[chorus]

[levi]

Who would sue?? this is old news, sforim business has been dealing with these sort of scruples since the days of gutenberg and long before

pseudoepigraphical works abound

[maven]

YL: From that line about being a man with a mission I thought you were channeling Devo (Big Mess)...

I am frummer yid
frummer yid i am
I am a semi literate
Let me tell you why
I'm a man with a mission
A frummer with a gun
I got a translation of the holy books
etc

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maven:

Are we not men?
We are YIVO.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

My Niece (4 years old) likes to put a sand bucket (empty) on her head and say ' I am no man, I am diva' , Really

[maven]

Monsey: So you have you nicknamed her "Spud" ?

YL: I'm going to hate myself for this in the morning, but I can't help myself (i'm jerkin back and forth):

If your tefilin bag is open,
you must zip it...

[mb]

"While Sir Jonathan Sucks tries to portray himself as Modern Orthodox he reuses to accept children as Jewish where the parent has an Israeli Orthodox conversion from particular municipalities.

Posted by: the Monsey Tzadik | October 26, 2009 at 01:41 PM "

You are incorrect. It was not the Israeli conversion that was the problem, per se. The convert was never Shomer Mitzvot.That invalidated the conversion.

[Ben]

mb, this is another retroactive revocation. Sachs, or Sucks as you seem to prefer to write his last name, really sucks. I hope his siddur flops and would reccommend any modern orthodox shul to avoid work of this grandstanding fool. To daven to Hashem, using words or explanations of this perverter of justice is doing disservice to G-d.

[Shmarya]

It was not the Israeli conversion that was the problem, per se. The convert was never Shomer Mitzvot.That invalidated the conversion.

Not at all.

Rabbi Sacks doesn't know what the convert thought at the moment of conversion – and, of course, neither do we.

That's why normative halakha has always been like the Rambam on this matter: once the convert gets out of the mikva and is accepted by the beit din, the convert is Jewish, period.

[Nachum]

Dave Marshall, I know you're trying to present yourself as some big scholar, but the very fact that you think that Samaritans have a book of Joshua (they don't) shows what an ignoramus you are.

[Raphael Freeman]

"The Koren Sachs Siddur is a beautiful looking work from which to pray and I'm glad they offer such important commentary from a MO rav. However, I have to give Artscroll credit where due: they still have an excellent set of pronunciation marks (notated shva and stress, although no kamats katan) and prayer instructions that are a wealth of information. The Koren work chooses visual form over function sometimes, as well explained and argued by the editor at the their site forum.

Posted by: Neo-Conservaguy | October 26, 2009 at 01:37 PM"

The Koren Siddur notes primary stress, shva na, kamatz katan and furtive patach whereas Artscroll only notes primary stress and shva na.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

You are incorrect. It was not the Israeli conversion that was the problem, per se. The convert was never Shomer Mitzvot.That invalidated the conversion.

Sir Sucks refuses to accept any conversions from few Israeli municipalities,

It is the same Sucks who told the Guardian in 2002 that certain actions on the part of Israeli soldiers "on a daily basis" left him "profoundly shocked" and "uncomfortable as a Jew."

[Ben]

Whatever designation RabbiSir Sucks has in religious spectrum, he is abusive, granstanding fool and nobody should buy this siddur regardless of the quality of the print job.

[Uzi M]

Nachum, he said "citing Karaite sages as well as Samaritan sages (obviously for Samaritan sages it would only go from Bereshit to Joshua) "
Bereshit to Joshua---not including Joshua

[Dave Marshall]

Nachum, I never said I was a big scholar.
However I did read that there is a Samaritan book of Joshua.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Let's reserve our vitriol for public figures, not each other.

Maven: Good one!

[Dave Marshall]

Thanks Yochanan.
By the way, I re-checked. There is a Samaritan book of Joshua, written in Arabic. In some parts it closely parallels the Joshua account in the Tanach, and then some areas it goes out on complete tangents.

[mb]

"It was not the Israeli conversion that was the problem, per se. The convert was never Shomer Mitzvot.That invalidated the conversion.

Not at all.

Rabbi Sacks doesn't know what the convert thought at the moment of conversion – and, of course, neither do we.

That's why normative halakha has always been like the Rambam on this matter: once the convert gets out of the mikva and is accepted by the beit din, the convert is Jewish, period.

Posted by: Shmarya | October 27, 2009 at 12:05 AM"

I agree if it was an Orthodox conversion.
However this was not. Chief Rabbi Sacks, is Orthodox. JFS is an Orthodox institution. They are entitled to reject non-orthodox converts as not Jewish. You may not like that policy, but it is a policy held throughout Orthodox. The only wiggle room is if a non Orthodox Beth Din had three Shomer Shabbat Dayanim on it. Very rare but it has happened. It was not the case here. The lady in question had a quicky non-Orthodox conversion for the purposes of marriage. She never was or intended to be shomer mitzvot.
Full disclosure. Chief Rabbi Sacks is my Rabbi.

[steve]

Artscroll would rather quote and publish the works of criminals such as child molester Moshe Eisemann and convicted thief Leib Pinter.

[steve]

YL,

From Elvis to Elvis, there was none like Elvis.

[the Monsey Tzadik]

It was Orthodox conversion in Israel (where they perform only Orthodox conversions), the conversion was done the by the conversion authority in Israel.

Sir Sucks in his hunger for power uses her to consolidate his power.

Maybe he wants to suck up to Tropper (that why he is called SUCKS)

Read the letters here:
http://www.geoffreyalderman.com/news.shtml?20050913

[Anonymous]

"another publisher should create an English series of Gemara commentaries, basically giving a translation of all of the major rishonim and acharonim on each daf (figure 10-15 pages of commentary on each daf."

An interesting contender is R' Nachman Cohen's series. He doesn't offer a literal translation but a full summary and deeper insights based on classic meforshim. His agenda is to encourage his reader to learn how to learn gemara- as well as to look into the meforshim themselves for a deeper understanding. This is quite unlike the "spoon-feeding" approach taken by Artscroll. There are some "drushy" comments that are also cool.

He's done Sanhedrin, Bava Bathra, Brachos, Tamid, Pesachim, Rosh HaShana and Taanis.

Some volumes of the Mei Menuchot (hebrew traslation/explanation of Tosfos) have been translated into English.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: Good one.

Anonymous: Sounds interesting. Does he do the Yerushalmi, too? I always wanted to check that out.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jonathan's Army (apologies to Elvis Costello)

Don't start me writing
I could write all night
My mind goes bullfighting
While I'm putting orthodoxy to right
Called rabbinic information
Have you got a black hat infatuation?

CHORUS:
Jonathan's army is here to stay
Jonathan's army are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

There was an Israeli convert
She didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've tasted rabbinic bile
Only takes one itchy trigger
One more gentile, one less Jewish shiksa

CHORUS

Gateshead is up for grabs
London is full of Kartas
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by a alter kockers
With the boys from the Hudson and East River and the Tyne
But there's no danger
It's a rabbinical career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Reb Elyashiv's ear
If you're out of luck you're out of work
We could send you to Williamsburg

CHORUS

And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today

[Neo-Conservaguy]

The Koren Siddur notes primary stress, shva na, kamatz katan and furtive patach whereas Artscroll only notes primary stress and shva na.

You are correct! I misremembered the issue with the Sh'vaim; they are notated but with a somewhat subtle font difference as opposed to the Artscroll's horizontal bar above the letter.

[Nachum]

"Sucks?" Really? Come on.

The Samaritan book of "Joshua" is a medieval work which is not part of their Bible. I'm just tired of all the commenters here and elsewhere who, upset at Orthodoxy for one reason or another, babble on about Samaritanism or Karaism without really knowing what they are.

[Dave Marshall]

Nachum, fine, I shall ask you in future if I have any questions about Samaritanism or Karaism, since you know everything, and can explain it to me in a very impartial manner.

[Nachum]

I don't pretend to know. I just know that if you think Orthodoxy is harsh, wait until you see the alternative.

[Dave Marshall]

Actually, from all I have read about Karaism, I found that for someone who thinks Orthodoxy is harsh, Karaism is less harsh and yet still traditional- they do believe in (written) Torah mi'Sinai, unlike Conservative and Reform.
I am not planning to become Karaite.
However, I think that the Jewish people would be far better served, in terms of religious options, if the main "opposition" to Orthodoxy were Karaites and Not Conservative and Reform. Judaism always was pluralistic, and will continue to be so, whether we like it or not. However, do we want a traditional pluralism or a pluralism that includes strongly assimilationist pluralism? By including Karaite Judaism into the mainstream of Jewish discourse we would strengthen the Jewish people, not weaken it. Simply put, from what I've read, I think Karaites take Judaism a lot more seriously than most Conservative and all Reform Jews do.

[Nachum]

All well and good, but there a whole bunch less Karaites in the world than Conservative or Reform (or Orthodox) Jews. Kind of hard to be taken seriously that way, fair or not.

[Dave Marshall]

You're right Nachum, there are only about 30,000 Karaites in the world, as far as I know. However, I am trying to spread the word to people that don't want to be Orthodox, but are disillusioned by some of the (U.S.) Conservative movement's recent policies (in my opinion gutless caving into the gay agenda, etc.) that there is a traditional alternative to Orthodoxy.

[Dave Marshall]

My personal opinion would be that the most ideal form of Judaism would be to keep the rabbinic calendar, but adopt some Karaite ideas- a kind of best-of-both worlds mixture of Modern Orthodox Judaism and Karaite Judaism. However, it will probably never happen.