Killing Kasztner Premieres In NYC

Once incorrectly reviled as Nazi collaborator, Rezso Kasztner now shown to be a rescuer who saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust.

“There were some things I didn’t know; there was a lot of politics involved [in Kasztner's trial and assassination],” said Gabriela Shalev, Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, who listened to a discussion afterward with Ms. Ross, members of the Kasztner family and historians.

Once Reviled as Nazi Collaborator, Now a Savior

By RALPH BLUMENTHAL • New York Times

“Were you on the train?”

Hedy Mayer, Devora Spira, Peska Friedman and Berta Rubinsztejn felt no need to ask: which train? Only one train was on everyone’s lips on Tuesday night at a Manhattan gathering of Hungarian Jews who had escaped the Holocaust. There had been many trains to Auschwitz. There had been only one train to life, and the four women, now all in their 80s, had been on it, along with about 1,680 others.

It was a train from Budapest that stopped for several months at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp and finally made its way to Switzerland and salvation. The trip was arranged in 1944 during the darkest days of the Nazi genocide by Rezso Kasztner, also known as Rudolf or Israel Kastner, a Jew who was to rescue more Jews than Oskar Schindler.

He had done this by negotiating face to face with Adolf Eichmann, the administrator of Hitler’s Final Solution, and paying $1,000 a head while concealing, enemies later said, the full measure of the peril that was to claim an estimated 550,000 of Hungary’s 825,000 Jews, and vouching at the Nuremberg trials for an SS colonel, Kurt Becher. For this, Mr. Kasztner was shot to death in 1957 at age 51 in Tel Aviv.

For years his name was anathema. Reviled as a Nazi collaborator whom an Israeli judge said had “sold his soul to the devil,” Mr. Kasztner, a journalist and official in Israel’s ruling leftist workers party, Mapai, was denounced in court, demonized in print and spat upon on the street. Rage against him brought down the Israeli government in 1955 and all but ignited a civil war. His three right-wing killers were pardoned seven years into their life sentences. Israel’s Supreme Court later cleared him of all charges, but the stigma stuck. His name graced no memorial walls, even at Yad Vashem, Israel’s shrine to victims of the Shoah, although in 2007 it accepted some of his papers.

But on Tuesday, growing research by historians and a long campaign by his aggrieved family and the many he saved culminated in a joyous tribute at the Yivo Institute for Jewish Research at 15 West 16th Street, where a respectful new documentary about him was screened before its American movie house opening on Friday.

The two-hour film, “Killing Kasztner: The Jew Who Dealt With Nazis,” took its director, Gaylen Ross, more than eight years to make. The movie presents new information, including allegations by the confessed gunman, Ze’ev Eckstein, that others were in on the plot but never prosecuted, and it has already been acclaimed in Israel, Canada, England and Hungary. It also suggests that Mr. Kasztner had acted with the knowledge of Jewish Agency officials he later protected.

“There were some things I didn’t know; there was a lot of politics involved,” said Gabriela Shalev, Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, who listened to a discussion afterward with Ms. Ross, members of the Kasztner family and historians.

“We heard he was killed and we were shocked,” said Ms. Friedman, who had been on the train and now lives in Brooklyn. “He did not deserve it.”

Ms. Mayer, also of Brooklyn, said that she was several months pregnant when she boarded Mr. Kasztner’s train. Her child, Egon, was born in Switzerland and lived to become a professor of sociology at the City University of New York.

Ms. Spira, another Brooklyn resident, said it was not just the people on the train who were saved. “I have two children, 13 grandchildren and 27 great-grandchildren,” she said. “He saved them, too.”

Mr. Kasztner’s daughter, Zsuzsi, 63, a nurse in Israel, and two of her three daughters — Merav Michaeli, 42, a television journalist, and Michal, 38, a marketing consultant — were smothered in embraces. “I want to thank you for your grandfather,” said Irene Grossman, 67, of Riverdale, in the Bronx, who was 3 years old when she joined her family on the train.

Manny Mandel, 73, a psychotherapist in Silver Spring, Md., who was also aboard the train, said he had heard all the stories about Mr. Kasztner’s outsize ego and abrasiveness. “I’m not sure I would have liked that man personally,” he said. “But if not for all that arrogance, imagine how he could have negotiated with Eichmann — he could have had him shot on the spot.”

Ladislaus Löb, 76, who was 11 when he was on the train, came to the screening from England, where he is emeritus professor of German at the University of Sussex; he published a book last year on his experiences and what he called Mr. Kasztner’s “daring rescue of Hungarian Jews.”

“He was a hero of circumstances,” Dr. Löb said. “Somebody had to do something. It’s better to save lives than not save lives.”

Ms. Rubinsztejn, also from Riverdale, claimed the last word before the Yivo Institute audience of 300. “Who has something to say about Kasztner should come to me,” she said. She was there, alive.

The Times also has a sideshow on the YIVO event and the original article has artwork drawn by a Kasztner survivor during the stay in Bergen Belsen. The artwork shows that, relatively speaking, the Kasztner Train passengers were treated better than other Bergen Belsen prisoners.

Comments

[Levi G]

How does this movie explain the fact that he openely lied to the hungarian jewry that they were being sent to labor camps, when in fact he knew quite well where they were going.
How does it explain the false letters he braught forth as evidance to the humane circumstances of the camps.
His own hometown was 20 kilometers from the romanian border with the slightest suggestion that people should leave and escape many whould have been saved.
Unfortunately when Rabbi Weismandel who saved many jews pleaded for several years to kastners zionist (sorry for being so abrasive i forgot the name of their irgunim and organizations then) collaborators for money and support his plea was mostly ignored.
Now i am not suggesting that they all meant to deliberatly conspire to the final solution.
But seemingly they were more interested in building the chalutzim and irgunim, then my great grandfathers orthodox long bearded jewish blood.
This i shall never forget and never forgive.

[Levi G]

Correction:
My Great Grandfathers "Hungarian" Orthodox long bearded jewish blood.
He lived in "niderhaz".
My Grandmother and one sister from a family of 10 were the only ones who survived.

[Shmarya]

How does this movie explain the fact that he openely lied to the hungarian jewry that they were being sent to labor camps, when in fact he knew quite well where they were going.
How does it explain the false letters he braught forth as evidance to the humane circumstances of the camps.
His own hometown was 20 kilometers from the romanian border with the slightest suggestion that people should leave and escape many whould have been saved.
Unfortunately when Rabbi Weismandel who saved many jews pleaded for several years to kastners zionist (sorry for being so abrasive i forgot the name of their irgunim and organizations then)

Every point you just made is false and has been proven false many times over.

[Levi G]

Shemarye, i read the book pefidy as well as your previous posts and comments on this, and i dont see anything proving.
What i do see is simple common sense.
The fact remains Rabbi Weismandel saved the chech jewry for 2 years, and tried to do the same with the entire hungarian jewry, but did not receive any support.
The fact is that many jews escaped to romania and survived, so who "is" to blame in not informing them?
I will put it to you in better words
"This entire saga stinks from top to bottom"

[Rachel]

My mom z"l, used to say that Kasztner helped some of the well to do escape death - but since it did not come at the expense of anyone else, (if he did not do this thousands more Jews would have died - that's all). it was the right/rightous thing to do. She was from Budapest and survived Bergen-Belzen. I can't wait to see the film!

[Shmarya]

Shemarye, i read the book pefidy as well as your previous posts and comments on this, and i dont see anything proving.

Please.

Dozens of historians, all the new Eastern European archival material, and Yad Vashem all agree Perfidy is complete bullshit.

There are reams of evidence.

Even the assassin says Kasztner was framed.

[Levi G]

Rachel i dont think its that simple.
In the court records in israel, he is accused of not informing and collaborating with nazis in distributing false information on the real location the jews were being taken.

[Shmarya]

In the court records in israel, he is accused of not informing and collaborating with nazis in distributing false information on the real location the jews were being taken.

And those charges were found to be baseless.

You leave that 'little bit' of information out.

[seymour]

I could be wrong here but

Shmarya and others like you, me included are fighting a battle we cannot win.

Simply we base our opinions and yes sometime believes on facts. Therefore, if new facts come to light we can change our opinions and or believes since what is true is more important even if it shatters our previous believes.

However, to many especially to religious their beliefs is what prevails. facts that do not confirm or goes against it are dismissed.

The holocaust is a great problem for the frum and also the actions of their leaders. Therefore they will cling to any BS anyone says, that helps them put it in a diffrent light.

Like in this case blaming a Zionist for their relatives deaths instead of their leaders who told them to stay. Or, simply blame G-d

[Shmarya]

Seymour –

That is a very profound statement. And I'm sure you're 100% correct.

[seymour]

to Levi G

why don't you take your hatred and point it to the culprits.

The GERMANS

[Rob Wisler]

As I said in a previous post, my father was a friend of Ben Hecht's and was responsible for the mid-1960's translation (into Hebrew) and publication of the book "Perfidy" in Israel (for which he was persecuted by the then-ruling-party). My father still holds by Perfidy, even when presented with the new facts that have come to light. People who are of a "religious" belief such as Levi G. and my father cannot have their totally-wrong minds changed, no matter WHAT evidence comes to light.

What a shame for the search for truth and for our descendents who are purposely and maliciously misled by the "religious" fervor of a totally incorrect notion. May God bless Rudolf Kastner and may he find his place among those saints who were martyred for the sake of heaven.

[Levi G]

Sorry there, but i feel you base your opinions and believes on the religion of bashing frum ignorance.
I know very well that the satmar ruv was not correct in his dealings either and thats my opinion too (for the record).
When you point to the opinions of historians as evidance or to other vague documents, is not strong enough for me to wash away very "believable" accusations.
At best i would say that nothing is proven here as 100 percent, so yes i wil stick to my belief that theres alot to blame on the zionist part.
And please seymor, i do believe in facts and proven evidance, so please stop superficially categorizing anyone with a different opinion.

[Shmarya]

When you point to the opinions of historians as evidance or to other vague documents, is not strong enough for me to wash away very "believable" accusations.

Please.

What you're really saying is you are comfortable in your belief that Kasztner is the devil, so any opinions from mumchas (experts – who, BTW, have halakhic standing as such) and documents won't change that.

[Levi G]

Not true shmarye, i do respect their opinions, and would very much believe them should they be 100 percent proven.
But as far as this case, i dont see much evidance on both sides its a he said she said situation, and i dont try to blame everything that happend on a single person, and i am not interested in bedeveling him.
What this all proves to me is, the believe that something terribly wrong had been done and felt, on the part of the then zionist leadership and mindset.

[Shmarya]

You don't expect Hecht to prove anything "100%" but you expect actual real trained historians to do that – meaning you hold them to a much higher standard than you do Hecht, and you accept hecht's false information as fact.

Past that, for example, historians now have Jewish Agency documents showing Kasztner's flight to Nuremberg to sign the Becher affidavit was paid for by the Jewish Agency.

Did you simply miss this?

Or don't you think that means anything?

[nobody]

"Once incorrectly reviled as "

Shmarya is still harping on this agenda as if it's objective fact. Does one of Kastner's descendent's fund your blog or something? Not everyone agrees that this man has been exonerated....

[Levi G]

Yes it sure does mean something, that there was a very large collaboration in kastners dealings and not simply a one man band.
Again i dont point entirely on hecht, how about Weissmandels accusations, have you read that.

[nobody]

Key point here: "And those charges were found to be baseless." should read "And those charges were 'found' - by a combination of opinion and wishful thinking - to be baseless."

[Shmarya]

Shmarya is still harping on this agenda as if it's objective fact. Does one of Kastner's descendent's fund your blog or something? Not everyone agrees that this man has been exonerated....

Not everyone? Right, not everyone.

But more than a dozen of historians, Yad Vashem, and pretty much any journalist who has looked into the case during the past five years or so agree the man was framed and that he is not a collaborator,

The problem with you and other right wingers is that hating Kaszter is part of your totem. and you can't stand to have that totem rocked by the facts.

[Shmarya]

Yes it sure does mean something, that there was a very large collaboration in kastners dealings and not simply a one man band.

Yup. there was a giant Zionist conspiracy to kill Jews. And you "know" this because ben Hecht – a playwright – and Shmuel Tamir – a Revisionist Zionist hardliner who hated both Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin – told you so.

Please.

Again i dont point entirely on hecht, how about Weissmandels accusations, have you read that.

A friend's father wrote the book on Wiessmandl. Weissmandl:

1. Had no idea what was happening in Hungary.

2. had no idea about the internal Jewish politics.

3. Had no idea what could and could not be done.

4. had no idea what Kaszter could and could not do.

5. attacked Zionists for their failures (which often were not failures) but did not attack haredi rabbis for their failures (which really were failures)

You keep relying on hearsay evidence from people with clear biases, while you disregard the facts.

[Nachum]

Oh, wow. People he rescued and his family testify as to what a great guy he was.

The historical establishment, leftists all, agree.

Surprise surprise.

[Shmarya]

Oh, wow. People he rescued and his family testify as to what a great guy he was.

The historical establishment, leftists all, agree.

So does the guy who shot him.

[MalachHamovies]

attacked Zionists for their failures (which often were not failures) but did not attack haredi rabbis for their failures (which really were failures)

Nobody really knows what R" Weissmandell thought about the haredei leaders. But he cleary did not write anything against them. And he was close to the Satmar Rebbe after the war. The Rebbe used to come up to Mount Kisko to comfort him.

Why he didn't iclude the satmar rebbe and other haredei leaders who told jews not to leave, i'll never know.

[seymour]

levi G

the problem is your arguments are based from a book that has been discredited by scholars and historians.

It is like me to prove the holocaust did not happen and bring quotes from Irving

The falsification of history by Hecht extends all along the line: from the general events of those years, through the history of the Holocaust and the rescue efforts of the Yishuv, to the Kastner-Gruenwald trial. Let us just cite a few examples:

PAGE 3: Hecht claims that in fact it was possible to come to Palestine without being prevented by the British. This is untrue.

PAGE 4: Hecht claims that a “sort of war” had been going on in Palestine, started by an underground army – Irgun Zvai Leumi. This falsifies history, since Jewish self-defense started in Palestine at the turn of the century with the Hashomer and later the Haganah, and the Irgun Zvai Leumi was only an off-shoot (small in numbers) of that latter organization.

PAGE 5: It finally ended with the “British de-camping and the Arabs taking over.” All that because of the Irgun Zvai Leumi? It had nothing to do with the preceding illegal immigration, the political struggle, or the victory in the UN Special Committee On Palestine (UNSCOP) which was unanimous in its finding that the British have to depart? There was never a Haganah and a Palmach, there never was a UN resolution partitioning Palestine and establishing the Jewish State?

PAGE 19: Hecht claims that Chaim Weizmann was “an Englishman with Jewish leanings.” He makes this point in order to support his contention that in 1939, Dr. Weizmann announced that he was taking a recess from all Jewish activities in order to concentrate on the war effort. In fact, Weizmann was a Russian Jew and scientific work took up only part of his time. His main preoccupation continued to be the Zionist political work. (One of the more dramatic successes of his activity was to prevent the deportation of the refugees of the Patria.)

PAGE 21: The Zionists in Palestine wanted “only the best Jews,” says Hecht, and therefore prevented large-scale immigration. In order to support his contentions, he quotes a letter from the United Jewish Appeal to a Rabbi in Maryland. The quotation, itself, does not bear out the contentions. (It also explains very carefully that the official Jewish organizations could not at that time officially reveal their authority over illegal immigration, for such admission would have meant the end of their existence under the British.) Since it would not fit his charges, Hecht, of course, fails to mention the fundamental “detail” that until the publication of the “White Paper” well-to-do immigrants could enter Palestine without restrictions. Any person who could bring in $3,000, or any artisan who could bring in $1,500, could immigrate without regard to any quotas or numerical limitations. The restrictions concerned those without financial means, on the basis of “labor schedules” which were issued by the British Mandatory Government twice a year for the following six months. The constant tug of war between the Jewish Agency and the Mandatory Government over these quotas for impecunious immigrants was a central feature of Zionist activity of that period. This was a struggle not for “the best Jews” (in the sense Hecht uses the term) but the popular masses of poor immigrants from Poland, Central Europe and Yemen. These penniless Jews formed the majority of the immigrants whose number in 1937 alone totaled 72,000 (60,000 of them legal immigrants, 12,000 “tourists” who remained in Palestine). All the phases of this struggle for larger quotas are fully recorded in the published biannual reports submitted by the Political Department of the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem to the successive Zionist Congresses. They also figured prominently in the annual memoranda of the Jewish Agency Executive to the Mandates Commission of the League of Nations in Geneva.

PAGE 21: It is untrue to say that the only illegal immigration going on prior to World War II was that started by the Revisionists. Tens of thousands were brought by the Haganah. (And why was there illegal immigration if Jews were not prevented from coming by the British, as claimed by Hecht only a few pages earlier?)

PAGE 32: “Nevertheless... the Jewish leaders decided on their course of obeying the White Paper.” Yet, in 1939, Mr. Ben-Gurion said that “We shall fight the war as if there was no White Paper and fight the White Paper as if there was no war”; and this was the Jewish Agency’s attitude till the end of the war. Indeed, the Jewish Agency, on one hand, organized the illegal immigration, the demonstrations against the White Paper, and on the other hand, called upon the youth to enlist in the Palestine Brigade which fought with the British forces against the Nazi Axis.

It is preposterous to call the Partition plan a “United Nations-British” document, since the British fought tooth-and-nail against its adoption. They voted against it in the UN and refused to collaborate in its implementation.

PAGE 39: It is untrue that the government has given a “precise and specific go-ahead to the Altalena.” In support of this contention, Mr. Hecht only quotes Mr. Begin’s assertion. And Mr. Begin was, of course, on the other side of this argument. The importation of arms by the Irgun was an open attempt to defy the authority of the legal government of Israel by force of arms and the maintenance of a private army. No government can countenance such attempts.

[Levi G]

"Yup. there was a giant Zionist conspiracy to kill Jews. And you "know" this because ben Hecht – a playwright – and Shmuel Tamir – a Revisionist Zionist hardliner who hated both Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin – told you so."
Please, the facts show that they did not inform the jews correctly,and again i never wrote that they conspired in "killing", but in giving more emphasis to their self interests, then to the reality, which was to take physical action in helping the many people escape and not tipsy toe with negotiations and diplomacy to help the privileged few.
Where did the money (some 60 million) the american jews contributed go to?.
Those chalutzim had wonderfull tricks in fighting the british, arabs, and so well organized, so where were they when the earth in hungary was boiling.
How about the 1943 zionist conference in america where the situation in europe was vaguely mentioned but rather the importance of a jewish state?.
Anyway i feel i said enough for my part all i can ask you is, did you have a grandfather killed in hungary shmarye?
cause i see you dont get it, and it might just be you will never understand it.
You will never understand the meaning of seeing a grandmother for 60 years (and may hashem grant her many more)crying each and every day for the entire family of hers being killed, as i have witnessed in my life.
And to blame Weissmandel in being a hipocrite is total biasness, you know and i know the orthodox rabbis had very little pull politically, financially, compared to the zionist machine then, and many were misinformed.

[Shmarya]

the facts show that they did not inform the jews correctly

Thee are no such 'facts,' Levi. In fact, quite the opposite is true.

And to blame Weissmandel in being a hipocrite is total biasness, you know and i know the orthodox rabbis had very little pull politically, financially, compared to the zionist machine then, and many were misinformed.

So your rabbis are guiltless even though they ignored many warnings but the people who warned them are guilty for not saving them?

II suggest you read Kaszter's Train by Anna Porter and see Killing Kasztner.

[seymour]

Funny

there are only two groups of people who still claim Kazstner was evil

Heridiem and Neo-Nazis

Good company heridiem

[Levi G]

"So your rabbis are guiltless even though they ignored many warnings but the people who warned them are guilty for not saving them?"
I rest my case, both are guilty.
the rabbis are guilty for ignoring many warnings even if they had very little capability to do, and the zionists are guilty for having the capability and not doing anything.
Shalom

[seymour]

Levi G

I had most of my family killed by the Germans and I am happy that there where some people like Kastzner who saved others from that predicament.

In addition you seem to think it was so easy to save jews, and that in other countries the jews where saved buy only in Hungary did they perish because of Zionist.

If only he was like the orthodox and let it to hashem

[Shmarya]

I rest my case, both are guilty.
the rabbis are guilty for ignoring many warnings even if they had very little capability to do, and the zionists are guilty for having the capability and not doing anything.

Are you serious?

Nobody had the ability to do much of anything, Levi.

Kasztner saved at least 20,000 Jews according to Yad Vashem. That means this ZIONIST saved more than all your rabbis, all your Irgun-niks, all your Schindlers COMBINED.

Rest your case?

Please.

[seymour]

Levi

the rabbies good do very little,

they knew enough to get their asses out, but leave their chassidien to die.

Of course not all, I do give credit to the ones who stayed behind

[Levi G.]

"Nobody had the ability to do much of anything, Levi."
Much of anything?
Couldnt they invest some money or at least inform people of the dangers ahead, and help them escape to romania.
I guess there was alot of grass and woods and empty land in romania for example where people could have hid out for several months till the wars end.

"Kasztner saved at least 20,000 Jews according to Yad Vashem"

20,000 WOW, But how about the 1000,000 ignored? and according to who? yad vashem? a institution openly biased on many issues, i will not discuss now.

[Shmarya]

I'm sure you mean well, Levi, but you simply do not know what you're talking about.

Lots of Jews knew deportation meant death, Levi. They still didn't flee.

Any guesses why?

[seymour]

levi

lets ee if I understand you

rebbies 0 good
Kazstner 20,000 saved no good because he should have done more.

Amazing logic a real gemmorah kop

[Levi G.]

Many more did not quite know the meaning of deportation.
As well as no money to be able to run, and no leadership for support to do so.

[Shmarya]

Many more did not quite know the meaning of deportation.
As well as no money to be able to run, and no leadership for support to do so.

Please.

People ran with no money. Friends of mine did that, in fact.

People did not run in Hungary because they thought they would be safe, and by the time they realized they would not be safe, it was too late.

What contributed to that?

Lots of things, from the unique nature of Hungary's Jewish community to the rabbis who told their followers not to run to the deportation to work battalions of the men, which was done early and done by the Hungarians, not the Germans.

Kasztner wasn't a bad man, Levi, Kasztner was a hero. And, quite frankly, that's a lot more than your grandmother could say about her rabbis.

[Levi G.]

"rebbies 0 good
Kazstner 20,000 saved no good because he should have done more."
seymor i can just see your empty hatered on anything orthodox that you squeeze anything in just to prove the rabbies bad.
I never uttered a word in my entire discussion enything good done by the leadership of the rabbis (accept for Rabbi Weissmandel.
Rabbis or no Rabbis, what the zionist leadership did in those years was terribly terribly wrong, including kastner.

[Shmarya]

Kasztner saved more Jews than any other Jew during the entire Holocaust.

And Kasztner was a Zionist.

[Levi G.]

I see shmarye you dont get it, the zionists saved jews and i will thank them for it, but why they did it i feel in some part was just to give people like you the thaught as if they were the saviors and heroes.
Dont forget many nazis saved jews in the end of the war too for that same reason.
Its the same way they do now, they turn on the fire, bomb the palestinian s... out, and then cry that jews should make aliya!!, anti-semitism is rising!!!.
Yes they saved jews but on many others expanse.
As i point to you before, in the 1943 zionist convention in america merely two sentencas did ben gurion utter on the plight of the european jewry, the rest was to their self interests.

[Shmarya]

As i point to you before, in the 1943 zionist convention in america merely two sentencas did ben gurion utter on the plight of the european jewry, the rest was to their self interests.

Complete ignorance of history and its context isn't an excuse for what you write, although it explains it.

The Jewish Agency and the "Zionists" were pretty much powerless during the war.

Past that, most of the rabbis who marched in the Rabbi March on Washington were Zionists, Levi.

So were many of the rescue activists in Europe.

So was Kasztner.

Your Hungarian rabbis didn't save anyone, Levi.

[Levi G.]

"Your Hungarian rabbis didn't save anyone, Levi."

This should explain everything.
Again shmarye dont be twisted into the same quagmire as seymors.
Yes the rabbis didnt do much with their little resources, but neither did the zionist leadership with their much greater capability.
So i should thank the zionist rabbis who marched in washington and some activists who happened to be zionist then i will.
But that will not justify what the others including kastner did.

[Shmarya]

Yes the rabbis didnt do much with their little resources, but neither did the zionist leadership with their much greater capability.

Please.

What "much greater capability"?

Have you ever studied history, Levi?

But that will not justify what the others including kastner did.

Again, Kasztner saved at least 20,000 lives.

Yet you hate him.

Your family's rabbis saved no one.

And you refuse to condemn them.

Think about that.

[seymour]

tyou hate him because he saved 20,000 jews.

Maybe he could maybe not could have saved more but to think of a man who saved 20,000+ Jews bad because maybe if he tried harder he could have saved more is idiotic

[seymour]

I do not the orthdox I know them very well I just know how their leaders BS them all the time

[seymour]

My queses would be take all the orthodox and they did not save a many as Katsztner so who is the bad one

[MalachHamovies]

Levi G.

The hungarian rabbis especially the satmar rebbe said that because Hungary had so much torah, no harm will happen to them.

How do i know this ? Because i have a friend who lives in Israel who spoke with a eldery hungarian jew whose family (and him as well) were satmar chassidim. And this is what the satmar rebbe told his parents and others.

[Levi G]

MalachHamovies,

I know this very well actually i read a well known book named "olamo shel aba" (world of my father) from a romanian rabbi after the war describing precisely that he lost a son in hungary because of the guidance of the satmar rabbi while he was in romania was saved.

In none of my disscusions did i praise the rabbinic authority, unfortunately the lack of their judgement was fataly wrong.

But to paint a highly contraversial individual with very sincere and numerous accusations, as a hero is outragous.

Most defenately does it not answer the part of the zionist leadership of the time for their lack of concern obliviosness and carelessnes, who had the rational knowledge of the situation, and had much more means then a rebbele overthere with his small enclave chasidim.

We should not be teaching our young generation that while "standing idle while blood is spiling" is something that will be forgotten, and notoriously glorified.

[seymour]

Levi G

but you are basing you opinion on him from erred information

[Shmarya]

That's the point, Seymour, as you noted yesterday.

No amount of facts, no amount of proof, will ever be enough.

In their minds. someone Jewish has to be evil, has to be responsible for what happened.

And that person has to be an Other, someone not an amasecha.

So Kasztner is the devil, even though Kasztner saved more lives than any other Jew.

[seymour]

Levi G

some of the things you say where thought to be true 20 years ago, however, new evidence and documents have shed new light and it seems mant things that were believed are not true and maybe completely different.

when you are dealing with these type of issues it is not like arguing about that Torah that it cannot be changed the view of Kazstner can and was changed ans new evidence comes out

I know for many, and i can see it on other boards, frum people have a very hard time admitting that the secular did much more than their godolem did to save Jews.

And I know (i was black hat) they will never ever give a secular or Zionist there do because then it shatters their facade that they are better much better than secular

I am not bashing the gedolem, many just made a mistake they are human.

However, the ones that said stay but left themselves is wrong. You know it is like some people complain and give seminars about conservation, but do it by flying in a private Jet.

I have no respect for that.

[Debbie, Agi, Laci, Dumitru, Luciana, The Erdozi family, The Borda Family]

The 2nd Generation of Survivors of the Holocaust, based in the NY Metropolitan area, endorses Hashem for his decision to bring Kasztner closer to him!
It does not endorse these American Jews whose parents born in this country, complained of "starving" because they ate meat only once a month, or their Rabbis who at the urgency of the creep from Temple Emanu-El, Rabbi Emeritus, his name mud, stopped their historical walk against the Holocaust, of fear of being called, "demonstrating kikes" !
We will not support this comic called " a movie", and will not read this blog again-
it's written in poorer English than The Jewish Week/Jewish Press.

[nobody]

Right, and Yad Vashem has no political agenda. Uh huh...keep sipping that kool aid Shmarya.

[nobody]

Seymour has completely distorted the case of the Altalena. No one can honestly claim that that was an attempt to seize control of the govt. There is ample documented proof that the Irgun believed they were operating with the approval of the central command (ben gurion), and their intentions were to split up the supplies amongst the haganah and irgun (more going to irgun obviously), for joint efforts at liberating the land of Israel, which were already taking place and continued to take place!

[Yoel B]

Will all you people shreing at Kasztner please stop playing the Nazi's game?
Kazstner had to choose who to take because the Nazis, y"sh were murdering and robbing European Jewry. There were only so many he could get out. The Allies weren't going to get to the camps fast enough. He had to make terrible, terrible choices: people he did't take were going to die. And if money was a criterion? So what? What should he have said? No, I won't dirty my hands by giving the Nazis money and taking out those who have money to allow me to buy more lives?
I don't care if everyone he got out was his first cousin and rich (which they of course weren't, and Hashem yirachem that I have to say it explicitly;) how many "whole worlds" did he save?