Chabad Opposes Proposed Israel Under-18 Drinking Ban
Chabad Opposes Proposed Drinking Ban
Shmais.comThe Chabad movement has expressed shock over a proposed new bill, put forward by the director of the Knesset Finance Committee MK Yariv Levin (Likud), banning the serving of alcoholic drinks to anyone under the age of 18. This would mean that minors would not even be allowed to hold bottles of liquor in their hands.
The NRG website reports that according to MK Levin, the intoxicating effects of drinking alcohol are responsible for the involvement of young people in road accidents, crime, and violence.
Chabad claim that apart from some rare cases, alcohol is not consumed at farbrengens in enough quantities to cause drunkenness. In fact, in recent years Chabad yeshivos have introduced a rule prohibiting their students from drinking more than a revi’is (100ml) at farbrengens.
Chabad spokesman Rabbi Menachem Brod declared that there is a need to change the bill somewhat, allowing the consumption of alcohol in limited amounts as part of an educational or religious framework, supervised by a responsible adult.
Rabbi Brod explained that Chabad does not encourage underage drunkenness. “Saying a lechaim shouldn’t reach any level of intoxication,” he said. “We’re talking about a mere sip. The amount of alcohol should be very limited, just for drinking a lechaim and according to the considerations of an adult.”
[Hat Tip: YbM.]
l'chaim
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 12:15 AM
drinking wine for kidush and havdala and arba kosot teaches children how to use alcohol responsibly. being commanded to get drunk on purim and getting drunk on purim teaches us hate being in a state of drunkenness. tasting the horrible taste of straight vodka makes us hate drinking vodka saves us from getting drunk by drinking mixed.
the diference between a jew and a goy is that goyim drink in bars and jews drink in synagogues. i have never in my life had a drink in a bar. one saturday night many years ago i went with people from berkley chabad house to a bar on a saturday night. they went to the bar to socialize and i went to the bar to make havdala in the bar. i was sitting at a table with them when i took out my own wine and my own cup from a bag and took out my havdala candle and matches and proceded to light my havdala candle in the bar. when i was kicked out of the bar for lighting the havdala candle in a no smoking zone, my friends from berkley chabad house left the bar together with me to protest my not being allowed to make havdala in the bar. i saved these jews from sitting in a moshav leitzim and i was saved from drinking havdala wine in a bar and this is how i have a perfect record of never in my life having had a drink in a bar.
l'chaim
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 12:49 AM
the reason that religious jews rarely become alcoholics is because we drink religiously instead of socially.
l'chaim
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 12:52 AM
secular jews unfortunately drink socially instead of religiously and end up suffering from drunkeness and alcoholism. they should not be allowed to give even a drop of alcohol to minors.
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 12:58 AM
this is a conspiracy of the evil zionist nazi gestapo to be able to accuse haredi parents and rabbis of child abuse for serving kidush wine to their children and take haredi children away from their parents and accuse haredi parents of child abuse and lock up haredi parents and rabbis in jail and cause the children to go away from yidishkeit.
lchaim
lchaim
LCHAIM
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 01:11 AM
conspiracy
evil
zionist
nazi
gestapo
to be able to accuse haredi parents and rabbis of child abuse for serving kidush wine to their children and
take haredi children away from their parents and
accuse haredi parents of
child abuse and
lock up haredi
parents and rabbis
in jail and
cause the children to go
away from yidishkeit.
lchaim
lchaim
LCHAIM
wow, mr sabel, you should seek proffessional help!
Posted by: Yosef ben Matityahu | October 21, 2009 at 01:44 AM
Since when is 100ml "a mere sip"? It's about three stiff drinks. Ridiculous!!
Posted by: Snakebite Survivor | October 21, 2009 at 02:37 AM
Since when is 100ml "a mere sip"? It's about three stiff drinks. Ridiculous!!
thank you Snakebite Survivor!
these idiots are heavy drinkers.
suffice to see manis friedman presenting "educational programs" on tv
grining coast to coast with a bottle of vodka on the table. as they say in slang hebrew "mastul", (one who lost his senses).
Posted by: Yosef ben Matityahu | October 21, 2009 at 03:13 AM
At risk drinking — The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) defines "at risk" drinking (which suggests that the person is at risk for adverse consequences) as : Greater than 14 drinks per week or four drinks per occasion for men Greater than 7 drinks per week or three drinks per occasion for women
A standard drink contains approximately 0.5 ounces of alcohol as defined by Department of Health and Human Services and the United States Department of Agriculture [11] . This corresponds to 12 fl oz of regular beer, 5 fl oz of wine, and 1.5 fl oz of 80-proof distilled spirit.
Criteria for at-risk drinking may be modified by comorbidities, especially in the older population. Increased mortality risk has been demonstrated for older patients who are at-risk drinkers, as defined by the CARET (Comorbidity-Alcohol Risk Evaluation Tool) . At risk drinking in patients with significant medical or psychiatric conditions, or who take medication for insomnia, seizures, allergies, indigestion, or pain is defined as two to three drinks per day on two or more days a week, or four or more drinks on any occasion. Patients with hepatitis or who have ulcer disease are considered at risk with any amount of alcohol intake.
An important subset of at risk drinking, particularly in teenagers and young adults, is binge drinking. DSM-IV defines binge drinking as five or more standard drinks for men, and four for women, in one sitting in the past year [13] .
Total consumption is not the only factor associated with adverse consequences; binge or high intensity drinking, as an example, is linked to injuries, psychosocial problems, and negative consequences, especially in younger patients [14-16] .
Alcohol dependence — Alcohol dependence is defined by the DSM-IV as a maladaptive pattern of use associated with three or more of the following (see "Screening for and diagnosis of alcohol problems") [13] : Tolerance
Withdrawal
Substance taken in larger quantity than intended
Persistent desire to cut down or control use
Time is spent obtaining, using, or recovering from substance
Social, occupational, or recreational tasks are sacrificed
Use continues despite physical and psychological problems
ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS, A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION OF THE MEMBERS OF THE CULT REFERRED TO ABOVE ARE "AT RISK" DRINKERS!
Posted by: al Farabi | October 21, 2009 at 04:09 AM
Yosef ben Matityahu (a.k.a al maimouni)
thanks al farabi.
all this is just a way to gauge & describe at risk. A- a person who drinks up to 100ml and "enjoys" the feeling, can open a bottle @ his parents, or buy alcohol either aided by his rabbi, or chevrussa lidvar aveira.
B- I am not aware that chabad houses stop @ 100ml despite the limit which they claim to uphold.
C- Their reasons to "celebrate" drink lechayim, are unlimited. birth? lechayim, death? lechayim, barmitzva? lechayim, siyyum? lechayim. shalosh sudos? lechayim. a good business deal? lechayim, a simcha of any sort lechayim?
always with a silly and besotted grin that makes me run away!
Posted by: Yosef ben Matityahu | October 21, 2009 at 05:06 AM
The drinking age should be lowered to 18 here in the USA. It is just about everywhere else in the civilized world, and was in many states, including New York, until Sen. Frank Lousenberg, who needs to be retired, waged his campaign to raise it to 21.
If you're old enough to fight, you're old enough to drink. In Israel, and here.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 21, 2009 at 06:02 AM
I've had a few in my time, and a very small proportion of those have been in synagogues.
Al Farabi, 100 ml (3.7 oz.) can be a mere sip or 3 not-very-stiff drinks. It's about 1/3 of a beer bottle, 2/3 of an average glass of wine, or 2 real drinks of whiskey or vodka.
In any case, it's certainly not enough to get an adult of normal size drunk, or even tipsy (a 200 pound man would blow an 0.03% on a Breathalyzer from that).
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 21, 2009 at 06:11 AM
You're talking about 15 year old boys having 2 full shots of vodka.
And that's the official maximum.
As anyone who has seen or participated in Chabad farbringens in yeshivot, shuls and, especially, campus Chabad Houses will tell you, that maximum is rarely held to.
Posted by: Shmarya | October 21, 2009 at 06:15 AM
four l'chaims, my childhood mashpia hat farklert, could also be four cups. Der ikker, what's important, it should brink his'orerus, hislahavus and devaikus (translation: it should facilitate indoctrination by associating the good feelings of disorientation from the booze with the disoriented and incoherent philosophies of habad)
Posted by: levi | October 21, 2009 at 06:30 AM
Don't put words in my mouth, Shmarya. I'm in favor of an 18-year-old drinking age. Universally.
Fifteen year olds shouldn't be drinking, period, except for token amounts (a couple sips of kiddish wine or altar wine). A token amount would be far less than 100 cc's, and wouldn't include any hard liquor.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 21, 2009 at 07:12 AM
chabad is mostly a drinking club. without alcohol nobody would go to those farbrengrens. the speeches go on for hours and make no sense.
when the chabad comes to my shule on simchat torah, i've seen 15 year old kids making kiddush on 8 oz glasses of vodka.
Posted by: critical_minyan | October 21, 2009 at 07:41 AM
Well, in that case, my advice is to start drinking heavily.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 21, 2009 at 08:19 AM
In Wisconsin, there is (was) a law that allowed fathers or legal guardians to take their 15-year-olds + to a bar ... as a reward for going hunting with dad. (It used to be adults, but it was being abused by the good folks at the University of Wisconsin) They've tried to repeal it a bunch of times, for all I know it has been repealed. Does MN have a similar law???
Posted by: yankele | October 21, 2009 at 09:23 AM
That law changed in Wisconsin this year.
Posted by: ML | October 21, 2009 at 10:27 AM
On ynet a couple of months ago, they had a story about a photographer who took all these photos of hassids in Israel. Several of them were of young men drunk and passed out on tables and passed out on the street.
Posted by: effie | October 21, 2009 at 11:39 AM
As someone who grew up in Lubavitch, perhaps I can clarify some points:
1) In the early 1960s, the Rebbe came out against bochurim drinking in large quantities. The story goes that at the wedding of the Kapitchnitzer Rebbe's granddaughter (daughter of Lubavitcher Rabbi Zalman Gurary), the bochurim drank so much that it caused a big chilul Lubavich at the chasuneh. It was due to this and some other events that the Rebbe came out with what chasidim call no-so-humorously the "gezeiroh ho'ayumoh": the Rebbe made osur ANYONE UNDER 40 YEARS OLD to dring more than 4 kelishkes (small 1 oz. l'chaim cups) during the course of an entire farbrengen. Earlier on, the Rebbe said no more than 3 kelishkes, but later on it was modified to 4 kelishkes.
2) Despite this, more than a few chasidim under 40, even bochurim, would drink copious amounts of vodka. Though they had no justification for breaking the Rebbe's gezeiroh, this was still overlooked as being from the "chasidisher yetzer horoh." Mashpi'im, even Rabbi Yoel Kahn, would speak out against this, but the fact is that there was no real direct control, and 2 liter bottles of Smirnoff on the table during a farbrengen with bochurim was very common. At the end of the farbrengen, these bottles were usually empty. And when the bochurim farbren amongst themselves without a mashpioh there was 100% no control. In fact, if someone did adhere to the Rebbe's gezeiroh he was viewed as "nerdy" and "not shpitz Chabad."
3) It is a dovor yoduah that although Lubavitchers by-and-large can "hold their liquor" (whatever that means), still, there is a mos that after which even the biggest "moychin d'gadlus" falls apart. I have seen countless times very intelligent chasidim who just lost it by farbrengens and acted in the most crass ways (to cite just one common practice: the elder mashpioh or chosid getting on top of the farbrengen tish and pulling down their pants and underwear [i.e. "mooning"], even in a shul, especially in 770.) This also led some chasidim to speak nonsense, nibul peh, even k'fireh, under the guise of "hergesh," or to get into terrible fights, even physically, in shul & yeshiveh etc. And this was happening even by those who were over 40 and therefore supposedly muter to drink like this. And not to mention some very brilliant and talented chasidim that could have accomplished much more with their lives, but who are now barely functional due to their life-long nurturing in Lubavich alchoholism. (This too has a long history in Chabad, e.g. the chosid of the Ba'al haTanyeh, Chazkel Droyer, who had a nefileh through shikrus.)
3) How is this all possible? This is because it is part-and-parcel of Chabad "avoydeh," especially at a farbrengen: to get RID of one's moychin d'gadlus. ["Moychin d'gadluis" is a known term in the kaboloh of the Arizal, in Eytz Chaim etc., vk"m.] I.e.: The chosid is supposed to drink until he gets rid of his "chaba"d" (seychel) faculties that are ma'alim umastir (obstructing) him from getting in touch with his nefesh ho'elokis. In the words of the RaYa"Tz (Friediker Rebbe), it is to farshiker the chosid's nefesh habehamis so his nefesh hoelokis shines; or, as the Rayatz taytshed at a farbrengen (printed in "Likutey Diburim"), based on the gemoroh: "Mashkin es habeheymoh lifney hashchitoh lehosir hasirchoh," that we farshiker the nefesh habehamis before we "shecht" him in order to get rid of our spiritual sirchos. The positive portrayal of mashkeh goes all the way back to Ba'al haTanyeh (Alter Rebbe) who said in a ma'amor: "Yehi rotzoyn shenizkeh l'yoym shekuloy mashke," meaning that yemoys hamoshiach is described as a time of an endless flow of mashkeh. Of course, it is taytshed as a moshol, but "eyn mikroh yoytzey midey pshutoy." This is also in line with Chabad's take on the concepts of "yayin hamishumer" and "yayin hamishtaker," which are mesholim for the endless flow of pnimiyus hatoyreh and chasidus. We also should not forget that many Chabad-Lubavitch nigunum are drinking songs and extoll the act of drinking and getting drunk. It was one such song ("n'ye zhuritzi chloptzi") that they would sing at the end of almost every farbrengen with the Reebbe!
4) It is a fact, that while the "gezeyroh ho'ayumoh" did have some initial effect in the '60s, it gradually became shvacher in practice (according to some it is already botul), so much so that one can currently go to a Lubavitcher farbrengen and see not only teenage bochurim drinking ohn a shiur (Yeshivah "Oholey Torah" in Crown Heights was notorious for this) but that these teenagers are even the "sar hamashkims," those that teyl oys the mashkeh. (There are even some pictures of this on the internet.) Who can count the times that Hatzoloh had to be called to help someone, even a 15 year old, suffering from alchohol poisoning, as it happened a couple of years ago in 770?
5) Even of those who adhere to the aforementioned gezeyroh, many say that it does not apply to Simchas Toyreh or Purim (or Hey Teyves, or Rosh Choydesh Kislev, or Tud Tes Kislev, or...) so effectivelly there is some time during the year that EVERYONE (can) get(s) wasted.
6) In the '80s, especially around the time of "Didan Notzach" (i.e. the Seforim Case), when there was unpreccedented unlimited drinking in Lubavitch on a daily basis, some concerned community activists printed a kuntres, "Mashkeh," with all the Rebbe's sichos and writings against excessive drinking. Of course, this had no major effect on the chasidim as a whole.
7) Unfortunately, since the Rebbe's petireh in 1994, all the chasidim have left to do is drinking, as a means to find solace in their current state. And for the Meshichists it takes on messianic importance ("yayin hameshumar" etc.)
8) To end off with what I heard from the famed mashpiyeh, Rabbi Mendel Futerfas, telling a middle-age chosid at a farbrengen: "Until 40 the Rebbe doesn't let you drink, after 70 the doctor doesn't let you drink; NU, CHAPT ARAYN, CHAPT ARAYN!"
Posted by: Shiker vi a Yid | October 21, 2009 at 11:39 AM
being that the evil zionist nazi gestapo government singles out haredim to give haredim major punishment for minor infractions and violations of its well intentioned laws, this law against giving alcohol to people under 18 must be fought lock, stock, and barrel. if this law would allow an exemtion for wine only and only for religious purposes, i would be for this law because i am against abuse of alcohol and i believe that minors should be prevented from abusing alcohol.
but who is to say what is wine for religious purposes and what is not a valid religious reason for drinking wine? who willsay what is a religious commandment to drink wine and what is not?
i dont believe that people under 18 should ever drink hard liquor, even at farbrengens.
i believe that the mitzva of getting drunk on purim applies to all jews and that all females and all males under 13 are exemt from this mitzva. but what happens if the evil zionist nazi gestapo tries to tell us that getting drunk on purim is not a mitzva? what happens if the evil zionist nazi gestapo tries to tell us that people under 18 must fufill the mitzva of arba kosot with grape juice? what happens if the evil zionist nazi gestapo tries to tell us that people under 18 can only be given grape juice for kidush?
bruria keren, the so-called taliban mother, is being held in jail indefinitely with the worst possible prison conditions when all she did was lock her 13 year old son out of the house one night because she was scared that her son, who was rebeling against religion, would make her kitchen not kosher. she is also accussed of a lot of other crimes against her children. these false accusations were made by children of her who revolted against religion and wanted to get back at their mother for forcing them to be religious.
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 11:40 AM
why does the evil zionist nazi gestapo government not set a court day for the sentencing of bruria keren? because they know that if she is sentenced it would be a gross miscarriage of justice for her to be sentenced to anything more than time served and if she were sentenced to anything more than time served, haredim would riot.
it is time for us to demand the immediate sentencing of bruria keren to time served. the punishment does not fit the crime even if she is guilty of everything that she is accused of.
THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE
WE SHALL OVERCOME
BURN BABY BURN
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 11:51 AM
As a Chabadnik I am constantly saddened and at times disgusted with the open and abusive drinking of underage kids, even in the presence of supposed learned and caring rabbis. when adults hold a lecahim and get spirtually elevated with mashka in front of young people we are setting a bad example. To serve the young people is wrong! To say it is rare to see drunkeness by young people at a fabrengen must mean the rabbi is too drunk to tell or in denial.
THe trend of boozing is pandemic amongst young Chabad men and bochurim. One day I fear we will see a book tilted the Rebbe's drunks(G-d forbid.
Posted by: concernedjew2 | October 21, 2009 at 11:58 AM
++Shiker vi a Yid | October 21, 2009 at 11:39 AM++
Thanks for the interesting historical account.
It was always scary for me to watch anyone in Chabad, especially teenagers, making Shabbos daytime kiddush after davening on a full cup of vodka, with an empty stomach, and being 'required' to gulp down the majority of the contents in one swig. It is considered, as you mentioned above, a sign of manhood to be able to do this.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 21, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Rabossai, lets stop being defensive and lets not get into this silly defense that no one gets drunk at Chabad. Let's be honest about the vodka just as some of us are proud enough to say the full yechi for our melech moshiach.
Any decent shliach he works with HS and college students knows that a reveis is not enough to lift a yid from the 49th madraiga of tummah the holiness of chassidus. The only time reveis works is if they are underweight, they skip the food and they are very sensitive to alcohol. But when we sing uforatztuh we also have in mind yidn who are fat, well fed, and alcohol tolerant
Farkert. First we have a mesorah from Chazon Ish who had it from the Vilna Goan that for Vodka a Revius is 4 times as large. You are asking so how come we did not know it till now, since when do Litvaks do favors for us, and how do we know it is true now? We must get people to understand that chassidus never really had a machlokes with the Vilna Goan, just a small minor misunderstanding, and near the end of his life the Vilna Goan understood he was wrong about hassidus. Those who surrounded him when he died heard him say all this. Unfortunately he was betrayed by those around him. So from the Olom Ha-emes he passed it down to through a sort of time teletransport to the Chazon Ish because he had the nevius to see that the Chazon Ish would be oker harim on matters of shiurim. (I cant explain the time teletransport but have heard that the yid who got a nobel prize developed it and got the Nobel prize when the rebbe looked at his manuscript, corrected one equation by one number, and one letter). It had to do with gematria which I dont understand. Anyways, the Chazon Ish was also betrayed by his followers. So again from the olam haemes the Chazon Ish using the teletransport thing passed this to the Rebbe who shared it with my teacher in Safad. But the Rebbe said, it should be kept secret until a terrible gezeira falls on us and then he can reveal it.
But now it has to be revealed.
Now I will say it differently in another loshon. The rebbe always encourages us to know different languages for kiruv. So in litvak language we are talking about hiddur mitzvah. We are talking about a mashkin that can turn a tinnuk shenishbar into a baal thsuvah.
So remember it is a litvish and chassidish thing to quadruple the shiur.
L'chaim
Yechi... voed
PS visit my website where I sell Chazon Ish shot glasses with chabad slogans. Profits go to support the pidyon shvuyim fund so Reb Rubashkin can come out and fullfill the mitzvah of vodka with the correct shiur.
Posted by: Menachem Wolpin | October 21, 2009 at 12:42 PM
Since when is it a religious obligation to drink hard liquor? It's only because of the Russian heritage of this Lubatvitch cult that they make vodka drinking a religious obligation. It's time for these idiots (most of whom have NO Russian geneology) to grow up and quit with these idiotic "let's pretend we're Russian peasents" affectations.
Posted by: Rob Wisler | October 21, 2009 at 12:54 PM
Wow!!
Shmaraya - you really have them coming out of the woodwork.
More than Vodka many of these people need Haldol or Mellaril (antipsychotics).
Although one cannot diagnose by the web, there is a lot of psychosis apparent here.
Posted by: Dr. Dave | October 21, 2009 at 12:55 PM
Shikker vi a yid,
Thank you. It was very informative. Was this the wedding of Mosheh Heschel who succeeded his father as the kapischnetze and worked for his father-in-law until he became rebbe.
I remember his levayeh. No hespedim as was their minhag. While the coffin was being prepared from his table (also thier minhag) there were thousands of people outside. To hear how people talked about him. Every conversation I overheard, the person speaking felt as if R. Heschel was his special friend who exactly understood him. Because it was a long wait I walked through the whole crowd, and at some point I got to the point where I was tuning into several conversations at once and there was all such talk around. It was better than any hesped I ever heard.
I have a question about the fact that the Rebbe's rule about vodka was disregarded. I have never been directly involved inside chabad. But I just always thought people did what the rebbe told them to. How could there be so many violations of his directions. Sure I understand all of the chassidishe explanations why one should drink and most of them even seem like good ones. However, always there was a difference between those who behaved properly and those who dont when they drink a lot. But clearly there were many cases where the behavior made it clear that they werent moving to higher levels of chassidus, just to being foul. It sounds like some people werent being erlich in their chassidus arguments, they wee just using their knowledge to rationalize. Again, most chassidim in chabad and elsewhere, dont allow themselves to interpret themselves and pasken themselves once their rebbe has made clear how he sees it. So while I could understand all these arguments before that wedding, How could they keep on saying it.
A
Posted by: AJ Hershkovitz | October 21, 2009 at 01:03 PM
A meaningful thread on alcohol is marred by the presence of Russian potato water. Can we please replace the Stoli with a more refined libation? A good single malt would be preferable (my favorite is the Talisker Rebbe...).
Posted by: CR | October 21, 2009 at 01:20 PM
++Dr. Dave | October 21, 2009 at 12:55 PM++
Dr. Dave, if you need a second opinion, I concur.
It's amazing how the secular world is so far ahead of the black hat world in terms of recognizing alcohol/substance abuse issues and attempting to educate kids through programs such as D.A.R.E. run by police departments.
The first anniversary of the Rubashkin Mountain Dew Party in Postville is coming up on erev Halloween!
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 21, 2009 at 01:26 PM
Continuing my earlier post, it is important to note that on more than one occasion THE REBBE HIMSELF appeared drunk & drank copiously at public gatherings with his Chasidim:
1) The most famous episode was Purim 1958, when the Rebbe came to the night farbrengen, apparently having already drunk a lot at the meal before he appeared in public. During the all-night farbrengen, he drank more & instructed the chasidim to drink a lot too. There are 6+ hours of audio recording of this farbrengen, and you can hear that as the night progresses, that his speech slurs more and more, & he goes more and more "off script." According to a journal written at the time by a chasid there, the Rebbe was so drunk that when they drove him home after the farbrengen, he threw up outside his home on President St. before going indoors. The next day, the Rebbe called in the chozrim ("reviewers") to review what he said the night before, and from the Rebbe's questions and remarks it was apparent that he did not remember anything that transpired after the first hour or so. [Ironically, during the farbrengen the Rebbe recounted that on Simchas Torah (or Purim) the chosid Chonye Marozov would "fake it" as if he was drinking large quantities and then speak openly as if he was drunk, saying later that he did this since everyone thinks he is drunk so he can say what he really wanted to say the whole year.]
2) During the end of the Moshiach Meal farbrengen of Passover 1989, the Rebbe instructed everyone there to drink a fifth full cup of wine, in addition to the traditional 4 that are usually drunk. (He said this during the ma'amar!) I was there and witnessed the Rebbe down all 5 cups fully. When it came time for him to give out "kos shel brachah" wine, he began swaying erratically and couldn't stand straight. After less than an hour they had to cut the line short (usually it would go on for 3-5 hours) and whisk the Rebbe back upstairs to his room. I can remember it as yesterday how the rebbe wobbled out of the downstairs zal (shul) barely keeping his composure, all the while with a glowing smile on his face. Chasidim at first were in a panic, thinking that this was a replay of Simchas Torah 1977, when the Rebbe had a heart attack during hakafos and barely walked out of the zal by himself (itself an incredible feat). Chasidim began feverishly reciting tehilim in 770 and outside the office. One of the Rebbe's doctors, Dr. Feldman, was rushed into the Rebbe's room, and after less than a half hour the doctor came out and announced in his characteristic way: "Don't worry everyone, he is OK. The Rebbe is just a little shikur!" Immediately a sigh of relief passed over everyone and a joyous atmosphere emerged. The bochurim assembled downstairs and, drinking up the wine left over by chasidim at the farbrengen, they began singing the verse of "B'nei Heycholo": "d'vey malka b'gilufin, aya aya aya ya..." We later found out that the Rebbe's private wine-maker (and shochet), Rabbi Kalmanson, produced an exceptionally potent (high alcohol content) wine that year.
3) At least the last 4 Lubavitch Rebbes (from the Maharash on) would drink Benedictine (D.O.M.) on special occasions and during farbrengens. In addition to its high alcohol content, it is also high in sugar and produces a more powerful inebriation. In fact, in the early years, a bottle of Benedictine would (sometimes?) be on the Rebbe's table during the farbrengen. It was only after someone pointed out to him that there is a crucifix on the bottle (since it was produced by Benedictine monks), that he stopped having it openly on the table.
It is also known that the famed chosid of the founder of Chabad, the Ba'al haTanya (Alter Rebbe), Reb Eyzel Homlier, would drink a full cup of "zeks un neyntziker" (96% = 192 proof!) before he prayed. There are numerous stories of both chasidim and even Chabad Rebbes drinking "zeks un neytziker."
So in a way, all of this is not new.
Posted by: Shiker vi a Yid | October 21, 2009 at 01:50 PM
Shiker vi a Yid,
Schneerson's story of Chonye Marazov pretending to be drunk on Simchas Torah is reminiscent of the heilege chossid Dean Martin who drank Martinelli's alchohol-free carbonated apple cider and who appeared drunk.
However, I think that I revere Dean Martin's rebbe Sinatra many times more than I revere the cult-leader Schneerson (although Sinatra's interviews were much more coherent and intelligent than anything that Schneerson ever said).
Posted by: Rob Wisler | October 21, 2009 at 01:58 PM
The problem with underage drinking is that you have to get used to the taste of alcohol. Almost no-one likes alcoho naturally.
Therefore we should avoid inducing anyone to like alcohol, just because it makes them look grown up or "for religious reasons"...
Posted by: soso | October 21, 2009 at 02:04 PM
To AJ Hershkovitz:
I was refering to the wedding of Ester Gurary (daughter of the Kapitchnitzer Rebbe's DAUGHTER [Malkah?] who married a lubavitcher, R. Zalman Gurary) to R. Nochum Shternberg of Israel.
As for how Lubavitchers can blatently act contrary to the Rebbe's directives, well, this is part of the unwritten doctrine amongst (some) chasidim of "kavanah p'nimis," i.e. that the Rebbe can say one thing, but "we" understand what the Rebbe REALLY meant. (A bit of the Platonic "noble lie" thrown in here for the prime "philosopher-king"...) In fact, some chasidim see this as a form of chasidishe mesiras nefesh: to do something "chasidish" even though it goes contrary to his explicit directive.
Case in point: More than once the Rebbe would tell chasidim that instead of traveling to him for a holiday, especially Passover, they should stay home and use the money for simchas yom tov. Even so, more than a few chasidim would travel to the Rebbe, against his open directive.
Another example I remember: Once at the end of "kos shel brochoh" the Rebbe said that EVERYONE should come up to get some wine. When the line ended, he said that even those "shpitz chabad" who think that they are doing him a favor by not coming to get wine (since it will take up the Rebbe's time and energy), that even they should come up. What happened was that even after the Rebbe said this, only a few more chasidim went up, but many others STILL did not go up.
Sometimes the chosid would defy the Rebbe's directive like this even though he knows in advance that the Rebbe will chastise him for doing (or not doing) something; the chasid would respond that a chosid has to be willing to go on "chasidisher mesiras nefesh" for (what he thinks is) the Rebbe's benefit or for a chasidisher reason, etc.
There is also stories of earlier Chabad rebeyim (the Alter Rebbe, Tzemach Tzedek) who explicitely warned their chasidim not to take/steal their manuscripts. Yet after there was a fire and the manuscripts lost forever, the Rebbe was upset that they did NOT ganveh them from him. In fact, the Rebbe was happy when he found out later that the chosid DID take it. [the last Lubavitcher Rebbe once recounted a similar story of how he made copies of manuscripts in his father-in-law's possession without ;permission, even though he knew it was against his wishes.]
As they (including the Rebbe) say: "Chasidim zaynen kluger."
However, the Rebbe would also call the yetzer horah: "Der kluginker"...
BTW, it is those who are currently in the so-called anti-messianist camp (the Shemtovs et al.) who have promulgated this twisted ideology of "kavanah p'nimis." This explains how they were able to act in certain ways contrarty to the what the Rebbe SAID, for, as these "kavanah p'nimis" idealogues claim, they know what the Rebbe THINKS.
It is interesting how "kavanah p'nimis" is used both by the anti-meshichists and the meshichists, albeit from opposite sides of the arena. Vekm"l.
PS: One could make the distinction between breaking the Rebbe's directives for the Rebbe's own benefit (e.g. health), or for deeper connection to the Rebbe, versus breaking the directive for one's own personal benefit. But who is to decide when it is proper to or not? Ah...that's where "hergesh" comes in...
Posted by: Shiker vi a Yid | October 21, 2009 at 02:42 PM
WSC:
It was also a sign of manhood in my college fraternity to get drunk, and down shots of vodka (or gin or Jack) in one gulp, although we mostly drank beer.
But this had absolutely nothing to do with davening. Then again, I wasn't in a Jewish fraternity.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 21, 2009 at 02:59 PM
Menachem Wolpin:
Brilliant.
Posted by: C-G | October 21, 2009 at 03:20 PM
Anytime there is a home game during football season, the ERs in college towns treat student after student, comatose and near death, due to alcohol intoxication.
Posted by: effie | October 21, 2009 at 03:24 PM
Chasidim are clueless as to how closely their drinking antics resemble those of alcohol abusers in college fraternities and in general society. The religious excuses for getting drunk are pathetic.
Posted by: WoolSIlkCotton | October 21, 2009 at 03:54 PM
Shiker vi a Yid Is the Purim 1958 episode the time when they the older chasidim removed the vodka from the Rebbe's reach.
Is Benedictine still Kosher?
Posted by: Shlomo | October 21, 2009 at 05:44 PM
israeli laws are enforced very strictly when used against haredim and very rarely enforced againt secularists. but
THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE
WE SHALL OVERCOME
BURN BABY BURN
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 21, 2009 at 08:46 PM
Shiker, thanks for all your interesting info.
Mr. A, hopefully we will all have a good reason to drink tomorrow night (although probably not until after midnight), when our glorious Yankees deliver the final death blow to the angels.
Posted by: WoolSIlkCotton | October 21, 2009 at 10:12 PM
BURN BABY BURN
why not burn yourself, zeivel?
Posted by: Yosef ben Matityahu | October 21, 2009 at 11:07 PM
what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the americans have declared war against the m'lachim and want to kill the m'lachim. well i have news for you all you americaner bums.
m'lachim are not physical beings and therefore cant be killed.
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 22, 2009 at 12:09 AM
i have been asked why i dont burn myself. the reason that i dont burn myself is because i am not suicidel. i want to live instead of die. but if i was in jerusalem i would be burning garbage cans.
BURN BABY BURN
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 22, 2009 at 12:16 AM
if anybody is thinking of commiting suicide they should call me 24/6 at 845-659-9162 and tell me why they want to kill themselves and i will with the help of g-d save their life.
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 22, 2009 at 12:21 AM
of course, barukh 'honen "la-adam" daat!
but what with that, that is not adam (la-afuqei behaimos und idiots gmurim?) and appears only intermittantly bidmut adam?
Posted by: Yosef ben Matityahu | October 22, 2009 at 01:46 AM
It was well known in Europe in the 19th century and probably earlier that chasidim are heavy drinkers (regardless of affiliation). Basically, the Lubavitchers seek to rationalize their addiction which is dearer to them than even the Rebbe (that's why it's called "addiction").
Their drinking to "get rid of their seychel" is strangely reminiscent of non-Jews' drinking to "lose control".
They are just very human shtetl Jews who got in way above their heads, and now things are getting worse and worse.
Posted by: Reader | October 22, 2009 at 02:35 AM
Let 'em drink Mountain Dew instead.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | October 22, 2009 at 09:57 AM
YL, the Mountain Dew anniversary is on October 30!
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 22, 2009 at 10:03 AM
I don't think Israel has made this rule solely because of chabad. I was told by someone who just visited the wonderful country that young teens or even pre-teens are sitting outside at night with nothing to do except drink themselves to death. They sit in the street with bottles of vodka or whiskey or any booze they can get and drink until they kill pickle their livers.
I think Israel needs to make this law. If they don't they will end up with the same sort of boozers as you get in the UK only they will be younger and by the time they hit their 30s most likely on life support.
They need to teach their teenagers the dangers of alcohol.
Posted by: R | October 22, 2009 at 02:08 PM
R, the drinking age in the UK IS 18.
When I lived in London, I saw more drunks there than I did in Ireland.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 22, 2009 at 07:59 PM
you can make lchayim on mayim chaim but you cant make lchaim on mountain dew
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 23, 2009 at 01:05 PM
r, you have just told the world that there worse drunks in israel than the lubavitcher drunks. also only a minority of lubavitchers get drunk any other time except purim and simchas torah. i only get drunk on purim. most lubavitchers who make shabos morning kidush on hard liqour instead of wine do so because they are making kidush in polisher synagogues where wine or grape juice is traditionally not served for shabos morning kidush. the polisher custom is to make shabos daytime kidush on a very small whiskey cup of hard liqour. the taz, who most of the polish jews follow, permited making shabos daytime kidush on a small whiskey cup of hard liquor because this is the amount of hard liquor that people usually drink. but the alter rebbe, the baal hatanya disagreed and poskined that shabos daytime kidush has to be made with a full cup that is at least 3.3 ounces even if one is using hard liqour instead of wine for kidush and that one should preferably drink the whole or at least half of the glass.
it is the fault of the polish jews that lubavitchers drink so much for shabos daytime kidush because they have no wine or grape juice for shabos daytime kidush. if the polish jews would only realize that lubavitchers dont make kidush on less than 3.3 ounces and lubavitchers instead use 5, 7 or even 9 ounce soda cups for kidush instead of 1 ounce whiskey cups for kidush, they would serve wine a kidush so that lubavitchers would not have to make kidush on large glasses of hard liqour.
in lubavitcher synagogues most people make kidush on wine instead of vodka. if you look at 770live.com and watch a live broadcast of a farbrengen in 770 you will see that a lot more people are drinking wine, juice, and soda instead of vodka and that very few people are drunk.
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 24, 2009 at 11:08 PM
If you want to get drunk, go into the local Blarney Stone and get shitfaced. Don't demean a synagogue by getting drunk in one.
There are worse drunks in the world than Lubavicher drunks. That doesn't excuse the Lubavicher drunks, though.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 25, 2009 at 06:43 AM
we get drunk for religious reasons that you apikorsim dont understand and not for secular reasons
Posted by: reuven sabel | October 25, 2009 at 06:33 PM
That reminds me of the guys who smoke dope for "religious" reasons, e.g., members of the Temple of Hash.
Posted by: Mr. Apikorus | October 29, 2009 at 08:39 AM