Yeshiva Student Murdered By Fellow Students In Street Brawl

Moments before stabbing, students told victim, "What you did wasn't Jewish."

Yeshiva man killed by fellow students
THE JERUSALEM POST

A 24-year-old resident of Netanya was stabbed to death Wednesday before dawn during a fight that took place in the city center.

The man was evacuated by Magen David Adom paramedics to Laniado Hospital in moderate to serious condition after being mixed up in a street brawl on Prof. Shor Street. He succumbed to his wounds and was pronounced dead at the hospital shortly thereafter.

Police arrested two suspects, aged 22 and 35, also residents of Netanya, in connection with the death. An initial investigation revealed that the stabbing was related to a conflict between three students of a nearby kolel yeshiva. Police have ruled out any connection between the stabbing and recent conflicts between noted crime families in the city.

The three men involved were known to police from past incidents.

Witnesses to the altercation said they heard the suspects telling the victim that "what you did was not Jewish."

Comments

[L.Krawitz]

Its tragic but inevitable.

Killing in the name of any religion is never justified

But, this is precisely what inculcated religious fanaticism leads to, regardless of whether the religious zealots are Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

The Yeshivas and the rabbis that instill this type of excessive religious zealotry in their students should also be held accountable for what these young men did.
They are no different to the mullahs who instill vicious anti-semitism in their students in their madrasahs, encouraging their young muslim students to go out and kill 'the Jewish enemy."

The actions of these students remind me of the Christian Puritans, who also loved their God with all their heart, but hated any man who was not with them, with all their might.

[zach]

"Inevitable"?? "Excessive religious zealotry"? You have no clue as to why this murder took place. I'll just posit that you are using this to express your anti-religious sentiments since there doesn't seem to be any more details on what happened.

[yosef ben matitya]

very sad.
even the poor murdered student's respond is very misguided.
they -and their rabbis- keep saying this is jewish, that is not jewish as if this is all that counts. while in reality, they ought to be human first. a properly behaved goy is worth a whole brigade of 'jewish' thugs of this sort!

[effie]

I agree with zach, we have no idea what happened and taking statements out of context doesn't help.

[Dr. Dave]

Whatever he did, murder is not Jewish either.

[ah-pee-chorus]

quite a strange story. why did police know of them?
why did he have a knife?
if there were past problems why were they still being paid to do this at a kollel?
why were they in city center near dawn?

[seymour]

the story is lacking in details

simply the police said they know of these guys, shows me they where trouble makers

While I am no Heridie defender one killing , one cannot make any assumption on the whole

[alternative childcare]

I don't think anyone knows what this is about at this time, I can tell you though that it apparently has little to do with chareidim, (see the picture at http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1113403.html, sure doesn't look chareidi to me...) and one of the involved characters is 35! But that shouldn't stop the usual characters here from making their usual daily comments.

[ah-pee-chorus]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3774558,00.html

++ The victim and the suspects all studied and lived at Rabbi Amos Gueta's yeshiva,++

++ Investigators said the three yeshiva students are known to police, and estimated that the fight erupted following an ongoing argument over a halachic ruling. ++=

sounds haredi to me.

[alternative childcare]

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/daily/D090909/180_hayal.jpg

[ah-pee-chorus]

was that picture recent or maybe 5 or 6 years ago when he was 18 and in army? he was 24 now. i dont know, i'm just asking.

[ah-pee-chorus]

if it was a halachic dispute then they would properly be emulating beis shammai's murder of beis hillel.

[alternative childcare]

I have to smile at your 11:09 comment. Though I think the second temple period with the sicarii may be more relevant.
I don't know anything about the story other than what was in Haaretz. However, if he was in the army then, and "charedi" now, that makes the point about why "dealing with the charedi world" in Israel is not as easy as some of the more violent posters here would advocate, as it is a very fluid term, people pass in and out of it in Israel rather frequently. So an Israeli would know that the term "charedim" often subsumes relatives and friends.

[ah-pee-chorus]

point taken. he could have been a BT haredi as well as the others. not enough info. but they all seemed to currently find themselves in some form of haredism.

[anycomment]

There has unfortunately been a recent spike in murders in Israel. The perpetrators and victims have been disproportionately -- relative to the population -- Seculars, in come cases mob related.

It is hard to concieve how L.Krawitz attributes the cause of his fellow Seculars' killing spree to be "excessive religious zealotry," but maybe he can explain it. I also haven't seen many Seculars denounce the murders, certainly Shmarya has not.

Orthodox Jews, chareidim to MO, are human with all the frailties that this entails. This site identifies inappropriate activiites by the O -- and unfortunately for us all, they will always exist -- and then implies that those activites are pervasive (beyond the O share of the population) among the O. The site offers no proof for this.

The site has many who are all to anxious to rejoice at hearing of these activiites and villify and denounce all of the O as evil ppl and in some cases refer to O and its leaders in derogatory terms (a clear violation of Rule 5, which Shmarya determined applies only to O posters).

As do Seculars and everyone else, the O need to improve and work as hard as possible to improve the behaviour and understanding of those that act inappropriately. But the cause is not Torah principles, but the failure to abide by them.

It is amzing to me that Shmarya feels that he was this evil person while O commiting all sorts of crimes and abuse of others and has now been saved, while all his former O friends continue their heinous behaviour. It would bode well for everyone if he would change the purpose of the site from villifying the O to encouraging positive behaviour by all Jews. This doesnt mean ignoring transgressions, but rather putting them in pespective, and extending the enforcement of Rule 5 to non-O posters.

[L.Krawitz]

The article above said :-

- Witnesses to the altercation said they heard the suspects telling the victim that "what you did was not Jewish.

If that was the case then it would appear that the men who stabbed the victim were doing so because they had decided that the man they were stabbing was not conducting himself like they believed a Jew should conduct himself,
- which is definitely a religious judgment call
-and for this error in the victims religious understanding and/or interpretation - they killed him by stabbing him more than once.

I live in a country where violent crime is unfortunately a way of a person's daily life, - and I am very familiar with violent, random crime as our entire family have all been victims at different times.

We have all had loaded guns held to our heads
One member had a srewdriver pressed against his throat,
Another had a knife held to her throat for her jewelry,
We have all been victims of armed carjackings,
We have all been held up and robbed at gunpoint at various times and some of us have experienced this more than twice and some of us several times, in front of our homes, out in the street and in our workplaces.

I can assure you that none of our experiences ever involved any conversations with the criminals about religion.

Trust me, that topic just never comes up.

These men (yes they are all men), just want your cars, your money, your jewelry, - watches, chains and rings which they bite of your fingers if they cant pull them off quick enough, and your cellphones, ipods and your laptops. And, occasionally they beat you across the face or pistol whip for fun.

None of this seems to be part of the story above.

I base my my judgement on what witnesses said they heard the two perpetrators say to the victim prior to stabbing him and on my personal and my families experience of random, violent crime, - where conversation and judgement calls about religious conduct never come up.

[A. Nuran]

"Witnesses said" is not the best source of information, sad to say. Ask any police investigator. People miss or mis-hear all the time. Their minds fill in the details in a way which makes a coherent story.

The identity of the victim and the alleged perpetrators? Highly reliable.

Past associations at school? Highly reliable.

Had they been arguing or at least making noise? Pretty reliable.

One of them said to another "That isn't Jewish"? Unless there's a recording or alleged participants said so independently to the investigating officers it's not much better than hearsay at this point.

Arguing about a point of law? Motivations? Who stabbed who when and why? It's all murky. That's why they call them "initial investigations"?

[anycomment]

L.Krawitz **We have all had loaded guns held to our heads
One member had a srewdriver pressed against his throat,
Another had a knife held to her throat for her jewelry,
We have all been victims of armed carjackings,
We have all been held up and robbed at gunpoint at various times and some of us have experienced this more than twice and some of us several times, in front of our homes, out in the street and in our workplaces. **

you may want to move

[WoolSilkCotton]

Krawitz, where the heck do you live, so that I can avoid visiting there?

[Isa]

Krawitz must live in the Republic of South Africa

[Mr. Apikoros]

That's what I was thinking.

[mo katpas]

When t comes to Charedim the Jpost trumps Ynet and Haaretz any day.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The murder victim and the two suspects all attended a local yeshiva known as "the Kollel," which takes in newly religious young people with criminal records, as part of an effort to rehabilitate violent offenders.

The Prison Rehabilitation Authority runs a program under which well-behaved offenders are released two-thirds into their prison sentences to centers around the country, among them religious centers like the Kollel.

"The background is a dispute over living space in the dorms," a police source told The Jerusalem Post.

"This dispute has been going on for two days. It turns out a previous fight broke out two days ago, but that was not reported to police," the source added.

The source dismissed a Ynet report which claimed the fight was linked to a "halachic disagreement."
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Shmarya How much ya wiiking to bet that the above is ther real story

[Shmarya]

I'm sure the details are correct. Except that I wouldn't give up on the halakhic angle yet.. Time will tell.

[Shmarya]

It seems it was a religious dispute after all:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/09/defending-rabbis-honor-no-excuse-for-murder-567.html

[L.Krawitz]

I can't say that I am even remotely surprised to read that it was a religious disagreement after all that led to the murder of this student.

Thanks for posting the info Shmarya.