Leading Haredi Rabbi Urges 'Modest' Haredi Women To Shun Less 'Modest' Haredi Women

Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky says truly 'modest' haredi women should refuse to sit on the same park benches with less 'modest' haredi women.

A Mother In Israel writes:

Neve Yaakov: Immodest and Modest Women Asked to Sit Separately

According to the religious Zionist weekly Matzav Haruach, the following sign appeared in a playground in the haredi neighborhood of Neve Yaakov in Jerusalem:

[A Mother In Israel's translation:]

According to the suggestion of our teacher the great rabbi H. Kanievsky [Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky, a son-in-law of Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and a leading haredi rabbinic authority in his own right – Shmarya], women are requested as follows, to divide seating in the city according to groups of women. Women dressed appropriately (wide clothes, a properly covered neck, a modest scarf [MiI: to cover hair]) will sit on separate benches. Women dressed immodestly [bepritzut] Heaven forbid, (tight clothes/open collar/bandana) will sit by themselves. And in this merit the women [MiI: there's no question as to which women, even though the wording is vague] will merit viable offspring, a comfortable living, and true comfort [nachat] from their children.

Notice that the suggestion is not directed at women who wear pants, show cleavage, or (married women) who leave their hair uncovered. The target appears to be women who more or less follow the rules, but fall from the community standard or the standard of whoever wrote the sign. There is even a subtle dig at wigs, as they are not mentioned in the description of modest clothing. Wigs are verboten in more modest circles.…

I used to live in Neve Yaakov up the hill from that haredi neighborhood, and I still have friends who live there. I wonder if moving has crossed their minds…

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

Comments

[happy]

Which park are we talking about? I haven't see this anywhere...

[Yosef ben Matitya]

well, the 'rabbi' himself as he is shown in this picture, looks like a transvestite to me.
he comes across as a toeva, an abomination, pritzusdiq und nein tzniusdiq!
he should be shunned too on public benches, a veritable sakkana to innocent yaldei yisroel, und their kosher mothers.
since we can't moyseren him to zionist polizie, at least for self defence, women who take their children to the park, should take with them a dark colour wool blanket und baseball bats or nabuteh , when they see him, they should throw the blanket on his head, and invite all the neighbourhood women to hit him with thick canes called in eretz yisroel "nabuta" or baseball bats.
same observation on 'r'' ginzburg of ota kat of sonei yisroel (y'sh r'l) whose picture is shown at the bottom, mame'sh, mame'sh toeva! oy la-einoyim shekach royos!
finally, ki messaneikho hashem essnoy! und baavod reshoeem rino! omeyn kein yehi roytzoyn.

[Dr. Dave]

Wouldn't it be better for them if the "more appropriately" dressed women interacted with the "less appropriately" dressed women to teach them the proper way to do things?

There would be more ahavat yisrael and they might talk them over to their viewpoint instead of shunning them and driving them to perhaps (gasp) wear shietels or sheer hosiery!!

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Dr Dave
unfortunately, among these animals, there is no such thing as ahavas yisroel.
(not even lip service is left)
even among the pretend jews called chabad, love of yr feloju is nothing but a fetishism to mask hatred and disdain of the rest of the world (including but not limited to ,I suspect, the likes of john voigt).
there are no "discussions of viewpoints" you either join the animals in their zoo, or are relegated to be shunned at best (i.e. when u are not yet zokheh to be beaten up).
and remember! we "are not a democracy" chos vecholileh, and should have no illusions in that direction.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/

an obscene website of deranged jewish (aryan it seems) red necks supremacist.
incidentally they seem to be fond of both the mames'sh and r' canievsky

[Hometown Postville]

You know... if they keep separating each other within their own sect, pretty soon there will only be one perfect woman left of their making and she will be a robotic, inflatable doll!!!!

[Mr. Apikoros]

I suggest the ADF "bomb" Mea Shearim with inflatable dolls. I'd prefer to see them fully inflated, but one can pack more of 'em in if they're not.

You can be sure the overly pious Pharisees will blow them up in no time, and I don't mean with explosives.

[ah-pee-chorus]

+++will merit viable offspring, a comfortable living, and true comfort [nachat] from their children.+++

smart purveyors of ancient misogynistic superstitions would claim that the rewards for this behavior will be granted in a world to come, where at least there can never be any empirical study to determine its truth. kanievsky is not that smart. he has left the door open to a study which could easily determine if his claims of "viable offsping and a comfortable living" does indeed hold true if a woman folows his advice. if only these mindless women would request some verification for his claim before spending their lives following these ridiculous rules he and his rules and promises would be exposed as lies. fortunately for him, his followers have been intellectually beaten down to the point where any questioning of his words is both unnecessary and blasphemous.... and so the cycle continues...

[seymour friedman]

what are we going to have now

separate buses for woman who dress appropriately and those that don't and many more innovations

[Pablo Faird]

YBM:
Before you degrade R`Chaim Kanievsky, find out more about this Gadol B`Yisroel. You don`t need to agree with his opinion, your comments however are totally uncalled for.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

find out more about this Gadol B`Yisroel

if he was a godol, he would have reached me. i am available in shuls, batei midrash and other places of study.

i am quite keen to see judaism elevated, all i see is it being drowned by actions of 'gedolim' who don't seem to care about the masses of the jewish people being lost.

[harold]

Let us see. One sign appears that states:

According to the suggestion of our teacher the great rabbi H. Kanievsky, women are requested as follows. To divide seating in the city according to groups of women.

(a) Women dressed appropriately will sit on separate benches.
(b) Women dressed immodestly will sit by themselves.

Considering their belief in the laws of tznius this should not shock anyone.

So what happens.

Rabbi Kanievsky is said to look like a transvestite.
He is called an animal.
Then some nonsense about inflatable dolls.

What is really going on is as follows.

In your home, if you tell someone to remove their shoes when they enter because you don’t want to dirty your carpets, you would understand. If you enter a shul and are asked to put on a kippa you would understand. If you enter a library and they tell you to speak softly or not at all because you will disturb others you would understand.

Now here we come the crux of the problem. The surprise is not that the charadim would prefer to live in a world of tznius and they have a right to within their confines (homes, shuls, yeshivas). What they are doing is testing the waters as to just where their boundaries are and at what point society at large will understand. Notice this was a request, not an enforceable law. If people choose to listen, fine, if not then they know that they have overreached their territory.

It is up to society to help define right and wrong. Listen, if the US govt has their choice they would love it if every citizen hand over their paychecks to them. Throughout this planet there is this perpetual struggle of what people want and what they can get. What we see here is an example of what goes on at the “bleeding” edge.

I think I am taking these posts more seriously than I should.

[Mr. Apikoros]

These are public streets. The Haredim don't have the right to dictate to anybody what to do on a public street, or in a public place.

If the Haredim don't want to be offended, they can do either of two things (or both):

1. Set up a gated community, on private property. Just don't ask anyone else to pay for it.

2. If their eyes offend them, they can pluck them out.

[Dr. Dave]

Uh Mr. A -

#2 on your list is in the testament most hareidim don't read

[Ben]

Currently we have benches that are available for everybody - men, women, child. I wonder how this new rule is going to be implemented and how it is going to be enforced in practice. Perhaps we can color code benches for tznius women and not tznius enough women? What should we do if a not tznius enough women will sit on tsnius bench? What should we do if a man will sit on women's bench? What if a tzniut women sits on not so tznius bench?
It is confusing and We need a clarification.

[Asa]

Ben, the solution is: a separate village for men and one for women, with an enclosed area in between for conjugal visits and transfer of warm meals.

[Ben Gurion]

Who says rav kanievsky wrote this?
Alot of askanim are running things at the moment.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Dr. Dave:

It may be in the part of the Bible that most Haredim don't read, but it's good advice nonetheless.

[Asa]

Mr. A: and one which the late great Soloveitchik indirectly agreed with as well, as evidenced in some of his halachas regarding seating on buses and the like.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Who says rav kanievsky wrote this?
Alot of askanim are running things at the moment.

doesn't matter! him n them, them n him are part of the same dross!

[alternative childcare]

Really Asa? R. Soloveitchik indirectly agreed with the New Testament (Matthew 18:9)? I love it when you and Mr A, who doesn't even know what tefilin is, but knows what inflatable dolls are, assume to know what's best for Judaism. R. Soloveitchik would have agreed to not be quoted by the likes of you, he was not very tolerant of the unlearned.

[Asa]

AC, are you completely sure you're familiar with the definition of the word 'indirectly'? The 'pluck out your eye' proverb is just that, a proverb. Not exactly on par with the whole messiah/resurrection/Jews-are-going-to-hell thing. And the meaning of 'indirectly' in this case is that Soloveitchik's ruling about the bus-seating is related to the 'pluck your eye out' proverb. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't understand your vitriol, AC. Where did I ever say I know what's best for Judaism? I do not claim to have any significant answers, nor do I pretend to. You have no intention of having a discussion or even a civil debate about your points (which may be valid, and which I've told you I welcome and am interested to know, though you never respond to THOSE posts of mine). You merely wish to spew at those whom you have decided are anti-semites. Ridiculous. Again, and for the last time, I am sincerely, genuinely interested to hear your point of view--because I am on the fence about much of the intricacies of halacha, etc., and have never pretended otherwise. If, however, you feel the need to continue spewing at me, Mr. A, and anyone else who may have qualms against orthodox policy, be my guest. Whatever gets you off.

[Asa]

To further clarify: the meaning of 'indirectly' in this case is that Soloveitchik's ruling about the bus-seating is related in theory, in philosophy, to the 'pluck your eye out proverb'. It's a matter of common sense. When you find yourself, for example, unable to control yourself in front of a female, you have two choices: either blame the female, or look at yourself--enter Soloveitchik's ruling. 'Look at yourself' is the same as 'pluck your eye out' in philosophy. It means, rather than blaming and then oppressing the other, correct, improve and elevate your own self. Simple as that.

[harold]

These are public streets. The Haredim don't have the right to dictate to anybody what to do on a public street, or in a public place.

There is no dictation here, it is more of a public announcement of a supposed ruling. Think of this along the line of a sign in a park declaring "Do Not Litter" or a poster on a utility pole during the presidential election declaring “New York for Obama”. To the followers of Rabbi Kanievsky the sign has meaning to everyone else it is background noise.

[L.Krawitz]

religious 'Apartheid' - again.

This is beyond insane.

[Mr. Apikoros]

A sign in a park saying "Do Not Litter" is more than a suggestion, boychik. There are fines for littering in every city and town.

[harold]

A sign in a park saying "Do Not Litter" is more than a suggestion, boychik. There are fines for littering in every city and town.

Again, everything is in the eye of the beholder. Littering can result in a monetary fine. To the haradim, not keeping the laws of tznius can result in a "spiritual" fine in the world to come. So just because you don't hold by the laws of tznius should not effect your appreciation of just what the purpose of the sign is to its intended audience.

[nobody]

"These are public streets. The Haredim don't have the right to dictate to anybody "

They didn't "dictate." Did you read the sign and its translation? It said "requested." Nobody has to listen to that if they don't want. Even though I think they are going overboard by putting up a sign like that, it can be ignored by anyone.

[moshe kaufman]

YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP!