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August 06, 2009

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Tom

Seymour is right.

If secular Jews were to go into a haredi neighborhood and do the same stuff they are doing in secular hoods then the sparks would fly.

Forget diversity. That is not in their head. They are not interested in any way except their own farkakte meshugas.

Haredim and datiim are the worst enemies of klal yisroel.

paul stevens

Omg, religious Jews attempting to convince other Jews to become religious. Is hanging a strong enough punishment?

effie

PishPosh: You lose. Nothing I posted even compares to what you claimed. Everything I said is what the article says happened and all are against the law.

Yoel

Seymour, I'm up for adventure, and have in mind some really good ideas. Think of some way for me to contact you.

Dave Marshall

Yonah, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that "Elokist" ideology means that Chabad believes that not only M.M. Schneerson "is" the Mashiach, but he is, as Chabad puts it "Hashem in a goof" ie. G-d incarnate in human form, G-d forgive me for such blasphemy, but I am just explaining what I understand them to believe.
I certainly hope I am wrong in my understanding of their beliefs.
Naturally I cannot accept such blasphemy.

Yonah

Dave, I've heard you mention "elokist" stuff here and there and still am unsure what it means to you. Please explain?

Dave Marshall

Tanya, you're right. However, what it makes it worse is the Yechi ideology and the Elokistim ideology which is totally unacceptable not only to any rabbinic Jew, but also unacceptable to any Karaite, to any Samaritan Israelite or any group remotely connected to the faith of Israel.
If the Sadducees were around today, they would also say it is unacceptable.

Ben

Tanya it probably was a joke, although a joke done in a bad taste.

tanya

Chabad knows exactly what they are doing. i listened to a youong chabad rabbi speak, and he said, so with a smile of how smart he was on his face, saying, "We had challah and wine at the table. Now is there a better way of getting jews to come, by feeding them and giving them wine."
I was offended by the whole thing. First of all, I don't want to be a part of "them", and secondly, what are we jews, a bunch of fish biting at the bait. They, the chabadniks, have a lowly opinion of their fellow jews. Like giving whisky to the indians, they give challah and wine to the jews. Who the hell do they think they are. Manipulative cunning insincere sneaks,that's who I think they are.

Yosef ben Matitya

"I think the issue is overstated. I do not agree with everything that Chabad does ..." sez Alex.
it is not overstated alex, they actually serve booze to kids. not only in israel. also in north america and certainly in south america. they do that knowing certainly that they brake the law, they do it against the will of the parents. they do it, because it is easier to brainwash vulnerable minors that they are in fact corrupting. in some places in north america, they offer "courses" for hi-school credits coolect donations for their "educational activities" and serve "brew" -not tea- to the kids. maybe parents don't complain so they will not be considered moysers, may be they don't know.
Well, may be u don't agree with everything habad..... hmmm try to disagree also to partake of their "free fuud and free buuz".
Oy to judaism that needs them to stay alive!

ah-pee-chorus

they werent in crown heights.

seymour

seymour- you will love this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4DjmRhMXM

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | August 06, 2009 at 02:08 PM


pretty funny at least they did not act out.

Yoel Mechanic

Seymour, that sounds like a whole lot of fun. I will have consider if doing such a test jives with my principles however, so you'll have to ask me in private. But I must say: that book of J, and being edited by a woman was the absolutely silliest theory I have ever heard because he has no documentary evidence for this, pure speculation in the name of pandering and political outreach. Seems to me that if one wants to hand out provocative literature it should be something worthwhile. Ah.. I think I have a better idea! how can i contact you.

ah-pee-chorus

seymour- you will love this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4DjmRhMXM

seymour

I have a simple challenge to see if the ultra orthodox and especially Chabad, really mean what they say.

I am willing, with someone else and a person with a hidden video to go in front of 770 and give out pamphlets about atheism and how the Torah is man made or written edited by woman (the book of J) or mabe a pamphlet called aphekores the real true behind the Torah.

Let see if they are so tolerant of that as they want others to be of them

anybody up for some adventure

Tonda

Forcing their way in with threats against the current occupants. Taking over entire neighbourhoods by comandeering properties. Making historic and settled families displace.

Do they think they're in the "occupied territories"???

Dr. Dave

Pish Posh -

Yeah, I too was concerned when the Satmars moved into my neighborhood.

PishPosh

A lot of comments here sound like ones I heard as a kid growing up about a certain ethnic group in America.

1. They bring down Real Estate values.
2. Their animals.
3. Why do they have to move here.
4. Why cant they stay amongst their own kind.
5. Cant leave the house, they are likley to murder or rob ya.
6. I have nothing against them as long as I dont have to live next to em.
7. Great, now watch the drug sales start.

Yonah

I won't lie, it was whiskey that first dragged me out of bed to go to morning minyan. Tefillin, booze, and leftover herring... the breakfast of champions. Of course I'm a woman and it was an egalitarian shul, but still.

Ben Amalek

Do they serve Jesus Juice?

Reader

The conclusion: people have the right to live anywhere they want but without FORCING their values on others. Chabadniks don't merely exercise their right of residence, they actively change the neighborhood to conform to their lifestyle because to them this lifestyle is obviously superior and eventually others will agree with them, and if they won't, well, that's tough.
It's no accident that they try to involve the children first. They hope to make the whole family observant through the children, or if not, to at least get the children. The alcohol is not innocuous, aside from the obvious psychological effects, a few people become heavy drinkers over time after getting involved with Chabad. I am not saying "alcoholics" but where is the fine line between the two?

ah-pee-chorus

++both seculars and Haredi need to avoid confrontations and respect each other.++

Posted by: Alex | August 06, 2009 at 09:02 AM


the second half of that equation will never happen. there are NO haredi neighborhoods where a secular woman would be able to move in and wear a tank-top in the streets. we both know she would be attacked, beaten, stomped on, spit on, and possibly have acid thrown in her face if the haredim are lucky enough to have some lying around.
haredim request and coerce residents and shopkeepers in NON-HAREDI areas to respect their desires, but in haredi neighborhoods they DEMAND that you follow their rules and enforce these demands by any means necessary. and this applies to situation where a secular would simply be dressing the way they always do without trying to influence the haredim in any way. if a group of seculars held a beer party in any haredi area and invited local teens to discuss bible criticism they would not leave alive.
yet the hypocrites continue claiming that THEIR rights are not being respected.
it is well known that haredim require a minyan within walking distance. so why would any religious jew ever consider moving to ramat-aviv, an expensive place with few other haredim. there is only one answer. to spread their haredism, or messianism. in a truly free society i would be all for their rights to do so and to compete in the marketplace of ideas. however, no country would permit imports from another country which has banned all of their exports. so i support the seculars right to use all means necessary to ensure the battlefield remains fair and even. its sad that it must be like this but the haredim made the rules of war. now they should live by them.

Dr. Dave

Underaged drinking!!

Boy, do I feel ripped off!!!

When I was a teenager all they offered me was Rabeinu Tam Tefillin!

Althelion

Ben makes a very good point about the double-standard that the haredi employ in regards to the control of information. The societal parameters are all ready in place: Children are minors. A childs interaction with other people, especially other adults, is completely at the discretion of their parents. This statute ought to be respected.

You don't see secular parents pushing their "agenda" on haredi children by handing out Jonas Brothers cds.

effie

Harassment:

Spitting on the store’s stoop.
Anonymous annoying phone calls.
Giving alcohol to teenagers.
Following people who have indicated they are not interested in Chabad.
Setting up tables and booths in front of stores.
Violation of zoning laws.

Oh, and I love your not so subtle threat of violence. The only people I see who are routinely confrontational and violent are the haredi.

Ben

I am all for Chabad to move into secular neighbourhoods and tell about their ideology, but only to adults, not to children. If Chabad insists on ability to spread their message among children, they must allow for secularists and gays and christians and feminists and hippies and whoever else to come to their places like Mea Shearim, Kfar Chabad, Beit Shemesh to spread their message among haredi children.

The problem is that they insist on playing uneven game. They insist on their right to protect their own children against any information inconsistent with haredi ideology, but simulteneously they insist that secular children can not be protected against messages that secular parents find inapropriate (such as haredi ones for example).

Alex

Effie, no where does this article state that Chabad is harassing other members of the neighborhood. As far as what Seymour is saying, two wrongs do not make it right. However driving a further wedge between seculars and and Haredim will only lead to further violence. In the interests of not creating more strife in Israel, both seculars and Haredi need to avoid confrontations and respect each other.

Althelion

"As far as giving out wine and beer, come on lets get real. Chabad is clearly not aiming to get these teeenagers and young men drunk. "

Well then, why don't the chabadniks just use their messianic theology to attract the young people? The booze is an incredibly effective lure for young people and they know it.

seymour

I think the secular need to be proactive and dop this and see hoe they take to it

Horowitz compares the situation in Ramat Aviv to a secular organization moving into Mea She'arim. If such an organization were to begin approaching religious members of the community, distributing leaflets advocating secularism, "there is no way they would be able to operate," he contends

effie

And people have the right to not what them in their neighborhoods, too. Anywhere they live they violate the laws. Zoning violations, harassing businesses, spitting, etc.

Alex

I think the issue is overstated. I do not agree with everything that Chabad does but their members clearly have a right to live anywhere they want and participate in their activites. In these articles, I do not see how they are infringing on the rights of seculars. This is Israel after all and they have a right to express their Jewishness, of course as long as they do not infringe on others rights.

As far as giving out wine and beer, come on lets get real. Chabad is clearly not aiming to get these teeenagers and young men drunk.

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