Letter from Jerusalem: Women Want To Sit At The Back Of The Bus

Haredi advocate for gender separation cries anti-haredi bias, says women like to sit in back.

Women have been kicked, spat on and punched by haredi men enforcing unwanted gender separation on Israel's public buses. But the haredi leader behind that gender separation sees no evil in his people's ways:

What do women want?
Segregated buses preferred by many women, reinforce respect for them
Shimon Stern • Ynet

Segregated bus lines have been in existence in Israel for 15 years, and in many countries such as the United States, Japan, Greece, and France one can find separate train cars for women. There, everyone understands the legitimacy of the issue – women who wish to sit separately because of the terribly crowded conditions and for other reasons.

Only recently, after 15 years, some Reformers and other radicals are suddenly coming up with ridiculous claims in order to tease and destroy something that only has to do with the ultra-Orthodox community. We are dealing with a handful of people who are obsessed with the haredim and have failed in organizing three demonstrations that never drew more than 20 people – compared to thousands who rallied in favor of the segregated buses in Jerusalem.

In addition, about 6,000 letters have been sent to the Transportation Ministry in favor of the arrangement, compared to only a few dozens opposing it – so tell me, what do we need to change?

Each person has the right to decide, for themselves, what constitutes humiliation or respect. I therefore think that it is clear that a community espousing gender-segregated systems at schools, synagogues, and celebrations is also allowed to decide that sitting separately is not humiliating – rather, a woman’s modesty is part of the respect she garners and plays an integral part in her dignified personality.

Did you ask the women?
Every haredi, man or woman, follows Jewish Law – which according to all rabbis rules that segregation is mandatory. In addition, we saw the establishment of a haredi women’s lobby in favor of segregated lines – this lobby comprises women of all kinds and they view this segregation as a right and honor to travel that way.

By the way, we also received responses from many secular women who said they prefer it that way, because of the abuse they suffer on regular bus lines.

Some people argue that “there’s violence on the segregated buses.” But there’s also violence on regular bus lines – I saw people fighting for window seats with my own eyes. So are we going to shut down those lines too? Meanwhile, the State also funds stadiums, which sometimes feature plenty of violence. Does anyone think of shutting down these venues?

And one more thing: If segregated buses are regulated by law, such violent acts will disappear. The moment the rules are clear, there is no room for arguments and problems. Beyond that, the violence on such buses is mostly verbal and comes from a handful of hotheads who are misbehaving (in contradiction to the view of all rabbis). But why generalize and exaggerat, while punishing the haredim collectively? This is unacceptable to anyone.
 
And last but not least, they tell us: “Why don’t you just establish a private company for segregated buses?” And I say: I wish they permitted us to do so. After all, these lines are highly profitable. About six months ago we offered free public transportation, yet the Transportation Ministry fought against it, claiming it was illegal. So please, if we have to travel using the national bus company, at least make it suitable for our conscience.

Shimon Stern is the spokesman of the Rabbinic Committee for Transportation Affairs

Comments

[R]

as this is written by a man he cannot be speaking for women.

[soso]

No, i don't. I always try to sit as much up front as possible.

[critical_minyan]

its only a matter of time before the haredim like this guy discover poppy seed growing, and the transformation from jewish to taliban is complete.

[Ben]

According to this man, women like to sit at the back of the bus. I am sure he did statistical analysis and not just anecdotal stories. Ok. But what about the rights of men? Do we want to seat only in the front part of a bus? I myself like to seat at the back and not be bothered by people passing by. I feel discriminated against by this narrow minded anti-men haredi bigot, who only consideres rights and wishes of women.

[M. Wisler]

I frankly thought that this article was pretty moderately written and well-thought out unlike every other defensive article that I've seen written by the black-hats.

They ought to put this on the ballot at the next Jeruselem municipal elections.

[anycomment1]

The article articulates the chareidi perspective well -- live and let live. if u have both segregated and co-ed buses in areas with a high demand for segregated buses, it seems to make good business sense.

PPl can choose which one they want. Sounds logical, unless u believe in imposing ure view on others.

[Dorian]

I ONLY WANT TO DRIVE THE BUS!

[JewishCynic]

It was a reasonably written piece.
Yes, it wouldn't suprise me that women would rather not sit among haredi men.

But how about a gesture to illustrate that this segragation is about religion and not male dominance - make the men sit in the back.

[harold]

I see no problems with men and women being squeezed together on a crowded bus :)

[Asa]

JewishCynic: ah, but then the'd be compelled to stare at the napes of women's necks, not to mention the sillhouettes of their shoulders, and we all know where that can lead.

[ah-pee-chorus]

the only point he makes which i agree with is that they should be permitted to run a private bus company. THAT should be put to a vote.
the point which the author and many of the posters miss is that a true,free democracy requires the protection of every persons right not to be discriminated against based on race, sex or religion. this is NOT open to a majority vote. ergo, if there is even one person whose rights are being violated it is illegal and has no place in society. if the haredim WISH to follow this practice, nobody would force them to mingle on the bus. but they do NOT have the right to pressure , harrass or attack anyone who does not wish to sit in their area of the bus.
if his logic held, then by majority vote there could still be separate bathrooms and fountains for blacks. and blacks could be forced to back of bus as long as the majority willed it. or jews wearing kippot. majority rules.... NOT in a free country with equal rights.
and he uses a non-analogy by equating fighting over windows or at stadiums with violence on these buses. in neither of those cases is the violence being caused by those wishing to deny someone their civil rights. in this case, he wishes the right to do just that be granted and agreed to. but nobody should be surprised at another attempt by haredim to twist all logic and law from their minds in order to do as they wish, whether legal, or moral.

[Mr. Apikoros]

In the United States, no private bus company has the right legally to discriminate against passengers. This includes those servicing Monsey, NY. If they sell tickets to the general public, they must abide by the anti-discrimination laws.

[ah-pee-chorus]

BREAKING NEWS:

muslims in the galilee have stated thet their interperetation of the koran requires that no muslim sit behind a non-muslim. by a majority vote this was affirmed. henceforth any jews riding a bus in the area will be forced to sit only in the rear of the bus. this will be enforced by whatever means are deemed necessary by the muslim passengers. thank you for understanding.

[seymour]

In the United States, no private bus company has the right legally to discriminate against passengers. This includes those servicing Monsey, NY. If they sell tickets to the general public, they must abide by the anti-discrimination laws.

Posted by: Mr. Apikoros | August 20, 2009 at 12:29 PM

they are selling tickets with restriction
I do not see a problem with that

The one thing the person does not mention
is that are also telling woman how to dress even if she wants to go to the back

[seymour]

JewishCynic: ah, but then the'd be compelled to stare at the napes of women's necks, not to mention the sillhouettes of their shoulders, and we all know where that can lead.

Posted by: Asa | August 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM

let them put on very dark sun glass or look at a sefer and learn

maybe some woman should stand and block a few buses like the Heridiem do to cars.

The only problem I see it that a heridie bus might actually run them over,and say it was mutter since they are Zionist and are the cause of swine flu holocaust and every thing bad

[Mr. Apikoros]

Wrong. I just did some research on Monsey Trails, and they'll sell tickets to anyone (not just to Jews, or to the ultra-Orthodox).

It says in the "general information" section that the driver has the right to seat anyone the way he wants. This means men on one side, women on the other, with a mechitza in the aisle (I have never ridden a Monsey Trails bus, so I don't know how it works.

As far as I know, the Monsey Trails bus is the only public transportation between Monsey and NYC. So if one doesn't have a car, or chooses to take public transportation, he or she has to use this bus line.

I see Hasidim on the NYC subway all the time. I'd love to see a black hat walk up to a 6'6" black man and tell him to move because he's seating next to a woman.

When is NY State going to grow a pair and enforce the law? Or are they too busy putting Plaxico Burress in the slammer?

[Asa]

The problem as I perceive it is that females are being forced to take the back seat (not only literally but also figuratively, in nearly every if not every aspect of haredi life) to protect weaknesses of male instinct; this way the males never learn how to control themselves and seem to stay in a state of non-evolution, even de-evolution. Can the male sexual instinctive drive be completely reformed to be indifferent to gorgeous girls walking around in barely-there clothes (which I'm also against)? Of course not. But it seems there has to be some accountability on haredi males, some instinctual responsibility.

[Dorian]

There are enough Haredi who travel on the 'normal' public busses without any problem.
Yesterday I entered a loaded bus with a baby in one arm, a backpack, and a heavy bag. When I was looking for a place 2 haredi men stood up and offered me their place. I accepted. They both had to stand because they could not sit next to me...They didn't get out the next stop as I expected but only about 15 minutes later..A very thoughtfull gesture.
Also, when I sit alone next to a man and a haredi comes in of whom it is obvious he is in need of a seat I stand up and offer him a seat which he can take because he will sit next to a man. If it would be a woman I wouldn't bother to stand up since he wouldn't be able to take my seat anyway.
Sometimes the haredi don't give a flip; sometimes the secular. BUt a big problem..no.
So if the ultra ultra SOMUCH want a gender seperated vehicle...than the móst elegant solution would be a DUBBELDECKER.Then women can sit anywhere they like!

...but I STILL want to drive that bus!!

[anycomment1]

I'm not familiar with Israeli jurisprudence but I expect that it does not have constitutional standards that mirror those of the US. There is no separation of church and state.

So if the govt want to fund a separate bus line that likely is not considered unlawful.

Again, the govt is providing an option to chareidim to meet a consumer demand. Anyone who is unhappy with it can choose the alternative bus line. In this case separate but equal may work, and shouldn't be offensive to anyone.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Are you opposed to gorgeous girls?

I am all in favor of women walking around in next-to-nothing. As long as they don't weigh 250 pounds, that is.

[joe]

IF THEY WANT SEPARATE SEATING THEN WHY NOT LET THE WOMEN SIT IN THE FRONT OF THE BUSS I HEARD THIS LINE FROM A VERY CHASIDISH LADY WHO'S HUSBAND IS A MAGID SHIUR IN A TOP OF THE LINE YESHIVA

[Asa]

Opposed to gorgeous girls? Hell no. Opposed to gorgeous girls adopting the Kardaashians and Hiltons of the world for role models? Hell yes. And, Mr. A, the current trend of "skank is the new black" extends to those lovely "big-boned" ladies too.

[Dorian]

"..So if the govt want to fund a separate bus line that likely is not considered unlawful.."

It may not be unlawful..but like in a city as Jerusalem it just couldn't be done. The city is already packed as it is. The train thru the city will be ready..whenever..
Do we also need a second set of rails for gender seperated trains?
Hope not. Again I say that the best solution is to invest more in bicycle- roads. Free for everyone; no gender problems.

[Clear]

JewishCynic: ah, but then the'd be compelled to stare at the napes of women's necks, not to mention the sillhouettes of their shoulders, and we all know where that can lead.

Mixed dancing. It lurks everywhere.

[Asa]

lol exactly.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If a nonreligious or nonJewish woman tried to sit wherever she wanted on the Monsey bus, and the driver insisted on her sitting in a 'women only' area, you can bet there will be a law suit and Federal/State civil rights charges. The bus company will be taken to the cleaners.

Same goes for the yiddish signs in New Square that say 'mens side' and 'womens side' on opposite sides of the streets.

[NotParticularlyFrumButSickOfBS]

Where does the Shulchan Aruch state that transportation facilities need to be separated? I know that during prayers, separation is mandatory, but this really seems to be going "beyond the Pale".

[Asa]

NPF, much of what goes on today in the haredi world doesn't seem to be in the shulchan aruch. "more religious than God" is the objective here, and "we're the best Jews", too. Look, isn't it a chassidic belief that all Jews are naturally drawn to Torah. These cults claim to be the truest bearers of the true Torah way. Therefore all Jews everywhere should be drawn to their way of life. They're not, though, because their way of life is repellant to most. And if it's repellant, it's either not true Torah, or all non-haredi Jews are not true Jews.

Correct me if my perception is askew.

[just me]

it's a democracy, why not just put it up for a vote?

[WoolSilkCotton]

How about a vote in the USA about kosher slaughter, or Sabbath observance, or wearing a yarmulke in public? How do you think those would go over in some parts of the USA if "it's a democracy, why not just put it up for a vote?"

We are a representative government, and we elect officials to carry out what's truly best for the American people. Citizens can, and should, express opinions to their elected representatives about any given issue.

Protecting the rights of the minority, in accordance with the stipulations and interpretations of the US Constitution, is one of the most important mandates of our legislative branch of government.

And so, no,we don't "just put it up for a vote" when it comes to many issues.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Justme: A democracy respects the rights of the minority, as well as the will of the majority. It it out of this seeming contradiction that much law is made and affirmed.

[Mr. Apikoros]

WSC: My fiancee is Jamaican. Maybe this weekend (Sunday, as I don't believe the Monsey Trails buses run on Saturday) the two of us will become non-violent civil rights protesters and relive the 60's, of which I was part and she, being 12 years younger than I, was not.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mr. A, good luck! Bring a video camera, and maybe a friend or two as witnesses.
If you're near New Square, take pictures of those yiddish street signs requiring men and women to walk on opposite sides.

[A E ANDERSON]

I think it's high time somebody tell the haredim to stop trying to impose their peculiar practices on others in the public sphere. What they do in their own bedrooms, hang on their own clotheslines, and so on, is their business.

What always amuses me is that the haredim who seem to scream tsnius the loudest are, like Andrea Dworkin as feminst rape victim, the most unalluring and unappealing of physical specimens, and are, consequently, the least likely to be the subject of mahshavot zarot and lewd hirhurim.

IMO, even a handful of Viagras would not suffice for the typical shietel or tichle-topped babushka all too frequently seen on the streets of Monsey, Meah Shearim, etc,.

To be honest, at times I wonder how haredim manage altogether to procreate. Seriously... when I see the couples -- man with scruffy begishe and scraggly beard, and woman as described above -- I marvel at how they manage to attract one another for as long at it takes to conceive (and especially within the narrow time frame allotted by the niddah conventions).

Add this to the sedative and flatulent effects of haredi cuisine (chicken and kugel, hungarishe cholent mit a sach bebelach), I don't quite understand the standards or methods of attraction within haredidom. Perhaps there's a PhD dissertation to be done on pheromones and the digestive effects of cholent.

And what about the faygelach among them? We know from the scandals reported here that more than a few yeshiva rebbes prefer young boys. If so, how does segregation by gender prevent homosexual and pedophilic thoughts and actions?

Still, I think the Rambam was quite on target when he posited the standard of pas b'salo as the litmus test for what would be undue sexual attraction for the male. In other words, it's OK to see or pass women on the street so long as you have "pas" (bread, i.e., a doable woman) in your "sal" (basket, i.e., house). Then, when you get a woody on the street from an overly alluring babushka or her garlic-onion scent, you can run home and use the medium of satisfaction at hand (though not literally at "hand").

[Mr. Apikoros]

On a scale of 1 to 10, the late Andrea Dworkin was a -6.

But next to some of these hideous haredi hags, Andrea Dworkin was Angelina Jolie.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Rape is a criminal act of violence, not an expression of randiness gone awry, and so ridiculing Andrea Dworkin's rape seems off base. We sometimes read in the news about elderly women being raped.

Other than that, AE Anderson, your 2:14 posting above is outstanding!
I suspect alcohol is a major part of haredi foreplay.

[Mr. Apikoros]

In one of her books, Andrea Dworkin claimed that at age 10, she was abducted and raped by aliens. She was living in New Jersey at the time so I guess that explains it.

Dworkin also claimed that while living in the Netherlands as a young woman, she became a hooker.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mr. A, I realize that Andrea wasn't playing with a full deck all the time.

Her rape claims lost credibility because of her other over-the-top insanities.

AE Anderson's second paragraph in the 2:14 posting seemed to state that Andrea couldn't have been raped because she was physically unappealing.
He somehow equated this with the physical/sexual unattractiveness of haredi women and haredi men's obsession with their tznius.

The 2:14 posting would have worked a lot better without implying that physical appeal is some sort of criteria for picking a rape victim.

I enjoy a good poke at haredim as much as the next guy, but a true case of rape isn't about sexual attractiveness or a man's randiness.

I also think that the wacky issues of tznius with the haredim isn't about fears of haredim raping their women, it's fear of themselves getting a woody and jerking off. That's what makes it so comical.

[Mr. Apikoros]

She was, however, attractive to space aliens.

I agree with you, however, in that physical appearance isn't the basis for rape, at least among the subhuman terrestrials who commit this crime.

[alternative childcare]

"But next to some of these hideous haredi hags, Andrea Dworkin was Angelina Jolie."

Mr A, as an elderly man who is clearly without friends, since you sit here all day writing Nazi things about Jews, you are not the person to accuse anyone of being ugly. But this is more of your nazi crap, and it is really time for you to shut your foul mouth already or go back to your stormwatch blog.

I think it may be time to formally ask Shmarya to have you banned, you foulmouthed nazi anti semite.

Shmarya: How many times does a Nazi get to call Jews vermin, hags, maggots, and such language, before he is banned?

[NotParticularlyFrumButSickOfBS]

For those of you who refer to "hideous haredi hags" I sincerely hope that someone splashes battery acid or something similar on your faces. You don't have to be obnoxious to make an anti-frum point. Personally, I find women who are dressed modestly to be more attractive than the shiksa-zoynas running around the streets.

[Mr. Apikoros]

Shmarya, how about banning this crazy idiot who seems to have nothing better to do with his time than call me a Nazi?

[WoolSilkCotton]

AC, where were you in the discussion about the current use of nazi imagery by republican hacks in the health care debate?

Or is your righteous indignation only limited to being against democrats? You didn't say a word on the other thread. You only appeared here when Mr. A made a comment.

Just curious about your position on the matter.

[Mr. Apikoros]

I believe this AC pile of rubbish is a mole planted by Ronn Torossian. And when he looks in the mirror, he sees nobody.

I also believe he's not blogging from Israel, as his latest post at 2:21 PM is 8:21 PM Israel daylight time, well after the inception of Shabbot.

[alternative childcare]

WSC: I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. When someone on a Jewish site says "But next to some of these hideous haredi hags, Andrea Dworkin was Angelina Jolie." I think it is correct to call them on that. When they post similar stuff on a Jewish website ALL DAY usually accompanied by German language terms from the Nazi period, I think it is legit to call them on that, particularly when they don't even know what tefilin are.
Why you imagine that I was a Republican or am on the right in Israel is beyond me. Obviously I'm disturbed by that polemic. But they don't post it here. If they did, I would comment. This "alternative childcare" name was born when I attacked "Archie Bunker" for use of racist language (similar to Mr. A's use of "sistah"). I don't know why you, as an educated person, are always so supportive of this oysvurf.

And I can be supportive of traditional mesorah (and even generally Orthodox) even if I do have to work in the lab after Shabbat starts.

[Mr. Apikoros]

It's now 10:50 PM, Israel time. You're still working in the lab?

What's so offensive about "sistah?" You seem to be very easily offended, and I'm only too happy to oblige you.

[Mr. Apikoros]

BTW, people very much like you call President Obama a Nazi, so I guess I'm in excellent company.

[alternative childcare]

People like me call President Obama a Nazi? I write for left-wing political journals. Is this some kind of delirium of the elderly that you have? And I do recall your being in favor of Sarah Palin.

Plenty of people work at this hour in the lab. I assume you've never run a Western or done PCR.
Did you tell your Jamaican girlfriend that you called her a "sistah" in public? Having jammed with some graduates of Lord Coxson's studio, I'm pretty sure she'd be offended as well. Soon she'll realize she isn't dating Mr Apikoros, but "ol' screwface".

[Mr. Apikoros]

Well, that explains your problem, buddy. You're a commie.

No, I've never run a "western." Just seen 'em in the movies and on TV. Nor have I ever done PCR. We don't get to do that in my business.

As for Sarah Palin, I'm about as much in favor of her as I am of Der Fuehrer. You can interpret that any way you like.

Helpful hint: I'm 62. If you want to reach my age, don't be so easily offended at nothing. Otherwise you'll die of apoplexy, and it'll be you in the pan.

[Mr. Apikoros]

BTW, you're no lefty, just a liar. If you were, you'd have been all over "nobody" for advocating ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians, and of course, you sided with him.

If you're posting all your defamatory comments about me from work, they must not be keeping you terribly busy in your pathology lab, if in fact you really work in one. If you were in Israel, your last post was at 6:14 EDT which is 1:14 AM in Israel. But then, with the ultra-Orthodox idiots prohibiting autopsies on murder victims, it must be a slow night.

Good Shabbos,

Leo A.

[Daniel]

the article claims that segregated train cars exist in various countries includung france, i'd like to hear some proof to back up this statement, because they certainly dont exist in france.

[anonymous]

There are no women-only rail cars in the United States.

[Bloomie]

"...in many countries such as the United States, Japan, Greece, and France one can find separate train cars for women."

This is not true in the USA -- not on public transportation of any kind. As an American, I know that "separate but equal" doesn't work -- not by race and not by sex. It's time for Jews to emancipate women.

[sonia]

seriously... are they any different from the taliban??

[Bartley Kulp]

So may be the author of this article should get the shit kicked out of him if he is ever caught at the back of a bus. That's right!! They beat up women for their own honor!

[Dovit]

"If segregated buses are regulated by law, such violent acts will disappear. The moment the rules are clear, there is no room for arguments and problems. " In other words, sit down (at the back) and shut up and we won't beat you.