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August 03, 2009

Haredim Blame Homosexuals For Incitement

Gay Les Bi Trans Club body on floor As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day after two others are buried, haredim accuse gays of incitement.

Gay Les Bi Trans Club body on floor

Haredim lament blame for TA attack
Matthew Wagner • THE JERUSALEM POST

Reactions in haredi news media outlets Sunday to the fatal shooting attack against Tel Aviv homosexuals varied from total denial to a focus on how the incident was being used to bash haredim.

The Internet site 'Hadarei Haredim', which has a chat forum and reports internal haredi news, led Sunday morning with the headline "The Anti-Haredi Incitement Club: the police are still investigating but the club's community is already accusing - the murder is a result of haredi incitement."

Kikar Hashabbat, another online haredi news site, led with an editorializing piece entitled, "Our blood has been cheapened: the incitement parade against the haredim has begun."

The article continues: "Under a façade of love, the abnormal community in Israel spreads hatred and blackballs the entire haredi sector."

In recent weeks, haredim here and abroad have been subject to considerable negative media exposure, and the reactions these stories have generated have put the haredi community on the defensive.

Burka arrest 2 The spate of bad news began with the conviction of a haredi woman from Beit Shemesh -known as the "Taliban mother" - for abusing her children.

In addition, haredim have persistently, and sometimes violently, demonstrated in Jerusalem to protest the opening of a parking lot on Shabbat, while the story of a haredi woman accused of purposely starving her three-year-old son led to even more serious riots that included destruction of public property.

Concurrently, in the US, several haredi rabbis and community leaders were arrested on charges of money laundering and trafficking in human organs.

Some haredi leaders have reacted by blaming the secular news media and the secular Israel public for tendentiously singling out the haredi community for censure.

Even some veteran secular journalists, such Nahum Barnea of Yediot Aharonot, have admitted that the local press has gotten carried away with haredi-bashing.

Against this background, the homosexual community's accusations against Shas MKs were seen as another attempt at negative stereotyping of haredim.

Eli Yishai and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Sources in the gay community have placed some of the blame for the attack on Shas, the Sephardi haredi party, whose members have made disparaging remarks about homosexuals in the past. Shas Chairman Eli Yishai and Shas MK Nissim Ze'ev, who have made headlines in recent years for their verbal attacks on homosexuals, were singled out for special criticism.

In February 2006, Yishai called homosexuality a disease.

"Up to a few years ago they would be exempt from military service. It is clearly a disease. I did not determine this, medical science did. It's a disease. The Torah talks about its severity, and I wish them a speedy recovery, I'm not hiding it," he said at the time.

Yishai also expressed his hope that a medicine would be found to cure homosexuality.

In June 2007, Ze'ev suggested setting up special teams of psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers who would help homosexuals return to normal life, "just like drug rehabilitation."

Nissim Ze'ev In January 2008, Ze'ev said homosexuals should be put in rehabilitation centers together with drug addicts and alcoholics. He said that homosexuality was a "plague that may destroy Jewish Israel," adding that this "plague" should be dealt with "just as the Health Ministry is dealing with bird flu."

In its official response Sunday, Shas condemned Saturday night's attack.

"Murder, understandably, is against the Torah way. Any attack is against the religion of Israel," the party said.

Meanwhile, a senior editor at the haredi daily Hamodia said that his paper would totally ignore the incident.

"We do not want our children asking questions about that community," said the editor, who was interviewed on condition of anonymity.

"Our philosophy is to stay away from that entire issue," added the editor. "Someone who walks into a perfumer's store comes out smelling good. But someone who walks into a tanner's comes out smelling bad."

A sentence like this has no business being in a news report, unless it is a quote:

Even some veteran secular journalists, such Nahum Barnea of Yediot Aharonot, have admitted that the local press has gotten carried away with haredi-bashing.

Yet, there it is. Barnea "admitted"? What Barnea did is assert, not admit. If Barnea wrote he himself was guilty of this, then it could be said Barnea admitted his own guilt. This could perhaps be stretched to include his own newspaper, although that is tenuous at best.

This isn't to say there isn't some anti-haredi bias in the media. There is. But, as the Post shows, there is far greater anti-secular and anti-gay bias in the haredi media.

As for gay incitement against haredim, let's take a moment to look at few examples of haredi quotes about gays in addition to those mentioned by the Post:

"Homosexuals are evil criminals who have no place with the God of Israel." – Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch.

Homosexual are "the lowest of people." – The Chief Rabbis of Israel, Shlomo Amar and Yona Metzger.

'We trembled in horror at the news of this menacing plot devised by a minority of our lost brothers, who have agreed to do the lowest, most abominable of acts – acts which are the polar opposite of the value of modesty the nation of Israel has been blessed with.…

"They have dared to parade in the holy city and temple to display their rebellion against the laws of the holy Torah and human morality, embraced by the majority of the world's nations, crushing of the feelings of millions who hurt and grieve this desecration, fearful of the horrible dangers concealed in this sinful act against the existence of our people." – The Chief Rabbis of Israel, Shlomo Amar and Yona Metzger.

"If [a homosexual] does not respond to conversion therapy…nor is one strong enough to to withstand a lifetime of temptation and is sure to stumble at some point and engage in a forbidden homosexual act, then, just perhaps, the Torah condones 'suicide al kiddush Hashem.'…[But] before even thinking about implementing [this], consult a genuinely Orthodox rabbi (and a good frum therapist as well)." – Rabbi Dovid Kornreich, a teacher at Yeshivas Toras Moshe, a mainstream haredi post high school yeshiva for American students, located in Jerusalem.

"All those involved in the matter, those of impure souls and those helping them and guarding them, they will feel in their souls a curse, a bad spirit will come over them and haunt them, they will never be cleansed of their sins, from the judgment of God, in their bodies, their souls and their finances." – Edah Haredit.

And, of course haredim rioted violently for days to prevent gays from holding a gay pride parade in Jerusalem.

But that haredi violence allegedly goes even further:

…Eight years ago, when a youth group was established in the town of Hadera, we were ambushed by dozens of haredi thugs organized by the local Shas chairman. They raided the branch, beat us up, threatened us, and threw us out. It worked out for them; a few gay teenagers cannot face hate-filled brigades.…

So, let's recap. Haredi rabbis said gays:

1. Are "evil criminals."

2. Have "no place with the God of Israel."

3. Will "never be cleansed of their sins."

4. Are the "lowest of people."

5. Engaged in the "lowest, most abominable acts."

6. Are involved in a "menacing plot" that "threatens the existence" of the Jewish nation.

7. Should commit suicide if they can't be "cured."

And haredim are upset they are singled out for creating an atmosphere that encourages violence against homosexuals?

Please.

Comments

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This is like the psychologist who said the pedophile victims were the seducers.

By extrapolation of the logic here and the recent testimony in the peodophile case, the Nazi's were merely the victims and blameless.

(I know, I know. But being absurd to the extreme is sometimes the only way to make a point.)

Homosexuals are the new "Jews" for the Haredim. The amazing thing is no matter how much Haredim will riot or threaten them, there is not much that they can do. Homosexuality always existed it is just in the open now.

Hareidim believe that homosexuality should be limited to the abuse of little boys by rabbeim. This, they'll cheerfully cover up. If it's between consenting adults, it requires the death penalty. Makes about as much sense as anything else in the hareidi community...

I really hope that it wasn't a hareidi person who shot up that nightclub. This will just add to the internal troubles in Israel.

What? We don't have enough external tsuris we need attack each other?!?

The hareidi community is absolutely clueless regarding homosexuality. Non-procreative straight sex isn't condoned either. Hareidi media ignore the story - good. They can't understand it or comment intelligently on it.

The "commit suicide if they can't be cured" line is bizarre.

Gays are good for Israel because they help to push the forces of pluralism.

" they will never be cleansed of their sins, from the judgment of God, in their bodies, their souls and their finances." – Edah Haredit."
I like the idea of Eidah Haredit that homos and their supporters will be hurt financially and that this would be sign of G-d's displeasure. I wonder how they explain situations when they themselves are hurt finantially, like in current Spinka,Syrian and Hassidic fraud network raids? Is this the sign of G-d's displeasure with Eidah Haredit or simply gentile anti-semitism that has nothing to do with the creator?

"As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day after two others are buried, haredim accuse gays of incitement."

As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day it actually happened, gays accused haredim of incitement.

I would be shocked, shocked, shocked, if a Haredi had anything to do with these two murders.

A haredi doesn't have to be the triggerman to have contributed to the shooting of these kids. When you go around advocating for the death or suicide of homosexuals, don't be surprised if a nutter, whether haredi or not, is influenced by their tacit endorsement.

This is just another illustration of the Israeli struggle between secular democracy and religious theocracy.

How different is a Jewish theocratic state run by ultra-orthodox from a muslim theocratic state run by muslim fundamentalists?

Althelion - In a Jewish one you get schnapps and no suicide bombers. In a Muslim one you get four wives (which will make you yearn for schnapps) and shrimp.

++As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day it actually happened, gays accused haredim of incitement.+++

Posted by: nobody | August 03, 2009 at 09:13 AM

are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various haredi rabbis regarding gays PRIOR to the shooting did not occur? or are you just fishing for moral equivalence where none exists in order to be a good little apologist for the haredim?

"are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various haredi rabbis regarding gays PRIOR to the shooting did not occur?"

Read my post again. I quote Shmarya, who is speaking about "...the day after..."

So, ah-pee-chorus: 'are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various [gay-activists] regarding [haredim AFTER] the shooting - did not occur?'


And if you're asking me if Shas (and other haredi spokespeople) expressing its disapproval of "gay lifestyle" is the same thing as an imaginary scenario of Shas encouraging murder or shooting rampages, the answer is an emphatic and very obvious no. (at least it should be very obvious, but activists are clearly obfuscating this issue).

When people say that drug abuse causes societal problems, is that the same thing as encouraging others to go on shooting rampages against drub abusers? When people on this site say that living off govt funds by learning in yeshiva and not working for parnassa is an improper/unacceptable "lifestyle choice" - are these commenters encouraging others to go and shoot up yeshiva/kollel men? Is that the same thing? Surely you don't believe that.

And if you do, there are serious problems with this website... maybe Israeli govt should investigate the "incitement" here...

Personal sentiment aside, fellas, the bottom line is: does the Torah condone or oppose homosexual relations?

If it condones, then Shmaryas comments may have merit. But if the Torah opposes it, regardless of Haredi crimes, excesses, whatever you want to call it... that doesn't give homosexuals carte blanche in a Jewish state.

I know that goes against the grain of our modern American secular democracy upbringing,but catering to our whims IF they are opposed by the Torah does not fly in a Jewish state. Just my opinion.

The question is: Is Israel a Jewish state (a theocracy) or is it a democracy formed by and currently governed by a plurality of Jewish people?

We are one people but we are not all the same.

I don't give a damn what it says in the Torah. If the Haredis incited this killer, be he Orthodox or even Jewish, they share in the blame for the shootings.

BTW I have no particular love of homosexuality.

Maybe it's my liberalism talking, but just because haredim say a bunch of hateful and bizarre things about gay people doesn't mean they incited anyone to do anything. As far as I'm concerned, the only people (or person) responsible for this shooting are the ones who planed and carried it out. Note: I will be happy to retract my statement if someone can point to an instance of a hasid saying something like "Go out and kill some faggots".

The overall filosophy/believe of (ultra) orthodox Jews is that if God intended to have homosexuals he would have created Adam & Alphy. The story goes he didn't.
The Torah explains into details about the subject (shun the act..NOT the people!..) and many filosophers and scientists have written numerous articles about in how far a human is male and female and what really determines the difference, besides the sexual organs..
Being that as it may..the homosexual being excists; ALSO in the orthodox communities...

I do think however that what bothers many hetero-AND homosexuals alike is the fact that in order to make a point and/or to state their case and place in society,.. to often it ends up in events like 'the gay parade' and other excesses... Those events to many's dismay often show perversity in every form (I leave it here up to the imagination of the reader). IN brief;.. performances and language you don't want to hear yourself, let go your kids and is very abarrassing
Comparing it to womens liberation; I wouldn't like women to expose themselves that way in order to proof that you are 'free' and 'free' to do whatever you please and that you are in control of the game and therefore totally lack to controll yourself and your ultimate goal.
That is missing the point of your goal ánd ridiculing others.
The point is that hetero- or homosexual..men or women..there should be equal rights in work, payment etc etc..
It should NOT be dragged down to the level of who you wake up with in the morning; Adam with Alphie or Eve with Evelyn ...or indeed Adam and Eve. The only person I am interested in next to me in bed is my husband. NOT in others and NOR do I like it to be used to make a point.

BTW: the Centre in Tel Aviv was to support homosexuals but álso yuongsters who were in doubt and were looking for somebody to talk with. Reason why many had to come all the way there? Because many of these people come from religious homes where even thínking what they want to ask is absolutely taboe.


Now let me go back to one of my favourite homosexuals: Oscar Wilde...

D= Dorian..sorry!

one day in the near future if the herideim keep this upa shooter will attack the ultra othdox, and who know what nobady might care but then

PS free speech the rebbies can say what they want, but even frum people should (but do not) not listen to idiots. also it was random attack, of people who where hanging out at a gay club, no sin. And lets get real what are they afraid off I do not think people become gay, by meeting interacting with gays. Your are or your not

there is now way anybody today is chayav misa, since no Sanhedrin. You need two adults who warned them during the act or right before and stating the correct avara and the correct punishment. (question what where the two doing in the room with them)

also in I remember from my yeshiva days, Sanhedrin rarely or never issued the death penalty.

If like the orthodox g-d can do what he wants, why not let god do his own dirty work to the sinners.

But if the Torah opposes it, regardless of Haredi crimes, excesses, whatever you want to call it... that doesn't give homosexuals carte blanche in a Jewish state.

Does it at least allow them the right not to be murdered?

I know that goes against the grain of our modern American secular democracy upbringing,but catering to our whims IF they are opposed by the Torah does not fly in a Jewish state. Just my opinion.

Is it a whim not to want a 16 year old girl - and that is a 16 year old girl lying dead on the floor in the photo, to be murdered?

Its those damn homosexuals who cause the hareidim to have that uncomfortable feeling in their loins.
They deserved what they got.

They would have been better if they had gone to Yeshiva and spent all their waking hours with their chavrusas...

Going to the mikva....

Lashing each other with willow branches...

Oh well. Better get back to metzitza b'peh before this gets out of hand.

Althelion, my feeling is that the only way Israel will not become a Haredi state is if all Jews, yes even the secular, are learned in Torah. If we as a group AND as individuals study the Torah a lot, it empowers us, and we stop feeling that somehow the Haredim are more "authentic" than us. This goes for the Diaspora as well.

only one sane comment?the rabbis comments in no way incited murder as was well pointed out.the torah calls it evil,so i assume the post and mr apikorus want to burn the torah and excuse my reference as to the last regime that burnt our torah,yes the torah of mr apikorus and of the jp.our claim to jerusalem is the torah
kornreichs comments were made according to whom?nobody knows him and he made have said it in jest but hey quote a no name person say he is inciting a bunch of american yeshiva boys?and how does the post know this?modern day mein kumpf-heil hitler

kornreichs comments were made according to whom?nobody knows him and he made have said it in jest but hey quote a no name person say he is inciting a bunch of american yeshiva boys?and how does the post know this?modern day mein kumpf-heil hitler

According to him. He posted them on his website.

Try following the links.

What is the difference between homosexual
behavior in the Conservative and Orthodox
communities ?

In the Conservative Community its
consentual.

Look up a pic of schneeron the witchdoctor from when he was in paris in the 1950's.

Could he look any more fey? If any readers here are gay can they use their gaydar and post their view.

here is one pic to look at:

http://mentalblog.com/uploaded_images/TiHU341101-707368.jpg

sorry that should have read "Schneerson the witchdoctor" by which i meant the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe Shlita Presumptive Moshiach and Redeemer of the World and Plastic Bottles etc etc.

How different is a Jewish theocratic state run by ultra-orthodox from a muslim theocratic state run by muslim fundamentalists?

Probably not much difference from those states and North Korea (Except North Korea is based on cult of personality rather than a mainstream god), but difference in religious laws

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