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August 03, 2009

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Alana

How different is a Jewish theocratic state run by ultra-orthodox from a muslim theocratic state run by muslim fundamentalists?

Probably not much difference from those states and North Korea (Except North Korea is based on cult of personality rather than a mainstream god), but difference in religious laws

Chazak

sorry that should have read "Schneerson the witchdoctor" by which i meant the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe Shlita Presumptive Moshiach and Redeemer of the World and Plastic Bottles etc etc.

Chazak

Look up a pic of schneeron the witchdoctor from when he was in paris in the 1950's.

Could he look any more fey? If any readers here are gay can they use their gaydar and post their view.

here is one pic to look at:

http://mentalblog.com/uploaded_images/TiHU341101-707368.jpg

chabib

What is the difference between homosexual
behavior in the Conservative and Orthodox
communities ?

In the Conservative Community its
consentual.

Shmarya

kornreichs comments were made according to whom?nobody knows him and he made have said it in jest but hey quote a no name person say he is inciting a bunch of american yeshiva boys?and how does the post know this?modern day mein kumpf-heil hitler

According to him. He posted them on his website.

Try following the links.

stan edwards

only one sane comment?the rabbis comments in no way incited murder as was well pointed out.the torah calls it evil,so i assume the post and mr apikorus want to burn the torah and excuse my reference as to the last regime that burnt our torah,yes the torah of mr apikorus and of the jp.our claim to jerusalem is the torah
kornreichs comments were made according to whom?nobody knows him and he made have said it in jest but hey quote a no name person say he is inciting a bunch of american yeshiva boys?and how does the post know this?modern day mein kumpf-heil hitler

Dave Marshall

Althelion, my feeling is that the only way Israel will not become a Haredi state is if all Jews, yes even the secular, are learned in Torah. If we as a group AND as individuals study the Torah a lot, it empowers us, and we stop feeling that somehow the Haredim are more "authentic" than us. This goes for the Diaspora as well.

Dr. Dave

Its those damn homosexuals who cause the hareidim to have that uncomfortable feeling in their loins.
They deserved what they got.

They would have been better if they had gone to Yeshiva and spent all their waking hours with their chavrusas...

Going to the mikva....

Lashing each other with willow branches...

Oh well. Better get back to metzitza b'peh before this gets out of hand.

effie

But if the Torah opposes it, regardless of Haredi crimes, excesses, whatever you want to call it... that doesn't give homosexuals carte blanche in a Jewish state.

Does it at least allow them the right not to be murdered?

I know that goes against the grain of our modern American secular democracy upbringing,but catering to our whims IF they are opposed by the Torah does not fly in a Jewish state. Just my opinion.

Is it a whim not to want a 16 year old girl - and that is a 16 year old girl lying dead on the floor in the photo, to be murdered?

seymour

one day in the near future if the herideim keep this upa shooter will attack the ultra othdox, and who know what nobady might care but then

PS free speech the rebbies can say what they want, but even frum people should (but do not) not listen to idiots. also it was random attack, of people who where hanging out at a gay club, no sin. And lets get real what are they afraid off I do not think people become gay, by meeting interacting with gays. Your are or your not

there is now way anybody today is chayav misa, since no Sanhedrin. You need two adults who warned them during the act or right before and stating the correct avara and the correct punishment. (question what where the two doing in the room with them)

also in I remember from my yeshiva days, Sanhedrin rarely or never issued the death penalty.

If like the orthodox g-d can do what he wants, why not let god do his own dirty work to the sinners.

Dorian

D= Dorian..sorry!

D

The overall filosophy/believe of (ultra) orthodox Jews is that if God intended to have homosexuals he would have created Adam & Alphy. The story goes he didn't.
The Torah explains into details about the subject (shun the act..NOT the people!..) and many filosophers and scientists have written numerous articles about in how far a human is male and female and what really determines the difference, besides the sexual organs..
Being that as it may..the homosexual being excists; ALSO in the orthodox communities...

I do think however that what bothers many hetero-AND homosexuals alike is the fact that in order to make a point and/or to state their case and place in society,.. to often it ends up in events like 'the gay parade' and other excesses... Those events to many's dismay often show perversity in every form (I leave it here up to the imagination of the reader). IN brief;.. performances and language you don't want to hear yourself, let go your kids and is very abarrassing
Comparing it to womens liberation; I wouldn't like women to expose themselves that way in order to proof that you are 'free' and 'free' to do whatever you please and that you are in control of the game and therefore totally lack to controll yourself and your ultimate goal.
That is missing the point of your goal ánd ridiculing others.
The point is that hetero- or homosexual..men or women..there should be equal rights in work, payment etc etc..
It should NOT be dragged down to the level of who you wake up with in the morning; Adam with Alphie or Eve with Evelyn ...or indeed Adam and Eve. The only person I am interested in next to me in bed is my husband. NOT in others and NOR do I like it to be used to make a point.

BTW: the Centre in Tel Aviv was to support homosexuals but álso yuongsters who were in doubt and were looking for somebody to talk with. Reason why many had to come all the way there? Because many of these people come from religious homes where even thínking what they want to ask is absolutely taboe.


Now let me go back to one of my favourite homosexuals: Oscar Wilde...

Audrey the Liberal

Maybe it's my liberalism talking, but just because haredim say a bunch of hateful and bizarre things about gay people doesn't mean they incited anyone to do anything. As far as I'm concerned, the only people (or person) responsible for this shooting are the ones who planed and carried it out. Note: I will be happy to retract my statement if someone can point to an instance of a hasid saying something like "Go out and kill some faggots".

Mr. Apikoros

I don't give a damn what it says in the Torah. If the Haredis incited this killer, be he Orthodox or even Jewish, they share in the blame for the shootings.

BTW I have no particular love of homosexuality.

Althelion

The question is: Is Israel a Jewish state (a theocracy) or is it a democracy formed by and currently governed by a plurality of Jewish people?

We are one people but we are not all the same.

shneerhere

Personal sentiment aside, fellas, the bottom line is: does the Torah condone or oppose homosexual relations?

If it condones, then Shmaryas comments may have merit. But if the Torah opposes it, regardless of Haredi crimes, excesses, whatever you want to call it... that doesn't give homosexuals carte blanche in a Jewish state.

I know that goes against the grain of our modern American secular democracy upbringing,but catering to our whims IF they are opposed by the Torah does not fly in a Jewish state. Just my opinion.

nobody

"are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various haredi rabbis regarding gays PRIOR to the shooting did not occur?"

Read my post again. I quote Shmarya, who is speaking about "...the day after..."

So, ah-pee-chorus: 'are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various [gay-activists] regarding [haredim AFTER] the shooting - did not occur?'


And if you're asking me if Shas (and other haredi spokespeople) expressing its disapproval of "gay lifestyle" is the same thing as an imaginary scenario of Shas encouraging murder or shooting rampages, the answer is an emphatic and very obvious no. (at least it should be very obvious, but activists are clearly obfuscating this issue).

When people say that drug abuse causes societal problems, is that the same thing as encouraging others to go on shooting rampages against drub abusers? When people on this site say that living off govt funds by learning in yeshiva and not working for parnassa is an improper/unacceptable "lifestyle choice" - are these commenters encouraging others to go and shoot up yeshiva/kollel men? Is that the same thing? Surely you don't believe that.

And if you do, there are serious problems with this website... maybe Israeli govt should investigate the "incitement" here...

ah-pee-chorus

++As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day it actually happened, gays accused haredim of incitement.+++

Posted by: nobody | August 03, 2009 at 09:13 AM

are you saying that all of the inciteful and hate filled comments made by various haredi rabbis regarding gays PRIOR to the shooting did not occur? or are you just fishing for moral equivalence where none exists in order to be a good little apologist for the haredim?

A. Nuran

Althelion - In a Jewish one you get schnapps and no suicide bombers. In a Muslim one you get four wives (which will make you yearn for schnapps) and shrimp.

Althelion

This is just another illustration of the Israeli struggle between secular democracy and religious theocracy.

How different is a Jewish theocratic state run by ultra-orthodox from a muslim theocratic state run by muslim fundamentalists?

effie

A haredi doesn't have to be the triggerman to have contributed to the shooting of these kids. When you go around advocating for the death or suicide of homosexuals, don't be surprised if a nutter, whether haredi or not, is influenced by their tacit endorsement.

Mr. Apikoros

I would be shocked, shocked, shocked, if a Haredi had anything to do with these two murders.

nobody

"As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day after two others are buried, haredim accuse gays of incitement."

As more than a dozen gays and lesbians lie wounded, and on the day it actually happened, gays accused haredim of incitement.

Ben

" they will never be cleansed of their sins, from the judgment of God, in their bodies, their souls and their finances." – Edah Haredit."
I like the idea of Eidah Haredit that homos and their supporters will be hurt financially and that this would be sign of G-d's displeasure. I wonder how they explain situations when they themselves are hurt finantially, like in current Spinka,Syrian and Hassidic fraud network raids? Is this the sign of G-d's displeasure with Eidah Haredit or simply gentile anti-semitism that has nothing to do with the creator?

Althelion

I really hope that it wasn't a hareidi person who shot up that nightclub. This will just add to the internal troubles in Israel.

What? We don't have enough external tsuris we need attack each other?!?

The hareidi community is absolutely clueless regarding homosexuality. Non-procreative straight sex isn't condoned either. Hareidi media ignore the story - good. They can't understand it or comment intelligently on it.

The "commit suicide if they can't be cured" line is bizarre.

Gays are good for Israel because they help to push the forces of pluralism.

David

Hareidim believe that homosexuality should be limited to the abuse of little boys by rabbeim. This, they'll cheerfully cover up. If it's between consenting adults, it requires the death penalty. Makes about as much sense as anything else in the hareidi community...

Alex

Homosexuals are the new "Jews" for the Haredim. The amazing thing is no matter how much Haredim will riot or threaten them, there is not much that they can do. Homosexuality always existed it is just in the open now.

Tonda

By extrapolation of the logic here and the recent testimony in the peodophile case, the Nazi's were merely the victims and blameless.

(I know, I know. But being absurd to the extreme is sometimes the only way to make a point.)

Yochanan Lavie

This is like the psychologist who said the pedophile victims were the seducers.

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