Video: A Jewish Man's First Bacon

A formerly-Orthodox Jew breaks his lifelong food taboos by eating treife with Penn Jillette.

Penn and Teller.

[Hat Tip: Dr. R-F.]

Comments

[WoolSilkCotton]

I felt like he was talking about me.

I still can't bring myself to eat pork products, but when I first tried nonkosher chicken and beef a couple of years ago, I was physically trembling with fear of becoming violently ill. But I didn't.

Then I discovered it tasted just like kosher chicken and beef, maybe better because it was fresh and properly cooked, not like from the shithole places in Crown Heights and Boro Park where I would usually go out to eat. (Eating Rubashkin meats, I was probably already keeping treif.) And the people who worked in the nonkosher places were so much more polite.

A cheeseburger was a nice combination of flavors. And I lived without getting struck by lightning.
And I discovered I could now eat wherever I went, and with friends, and not always be the oddball who can't share in the meal.
So all those rabbis and religious friends and folks I knew had been lying to me. And my nonreligious friends hadn't.
And God was a liar, too. No surprise, he fvcked us in pogroms and holocausts, so why should I feel like he was treating me any better? Let my people go- to Le Halles for their signature all beef burger.

[alternative childcare]

WSC: I think we'd be more interested in hearing about your first non-kosher woman...

[WoolSilkCotton]

Well, AC, why didn't you say so sooner!

Shiksas are indeed wonderful women, and I am not saying that in a lascivious way. They want to please you and look forward to your happiness. They are most grateful for any kindness you show. They are not looking for your money.
In bed, well, AC, they are absolutely fantastic. I want to keep this posting fairly clean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not all shiksas are great women, some are shrews, and yeah, yeah, yeah, not all Jewish girls are impossible japppy beeaaatches, but the stereotypes are largely borne out by my experience. So sue me.

The difference between Jewish girls and shiksas?
With a Jewish girl, the diamonds are real but the orgasms are fake.
With a shiksa, the orgasms are real but the diamonds are fake.

Again, so sue me.

[YABED]

"So all those rabbis and religious friends and folks I knew had been lying to me. And my nonreligious friends hadn't."

Lied about what?

What was the purpose of that video? To mock what certain people believe in? What good feeling do you get from it?

I have a feeling that if you a born a Jew, then you don't burn up your Jew card by saying you want to opt out of the tribe. It doesn't work like that. You might still be responsible for your actions.

Anyone's thoughts might be better than mine.

[David Willig]

To WSC, did anyone ever tell you that you would get sick or hit by lightening if you ate non kosher food? eating kosher helps make a spiritual experience out of a physical need. No one tells you what to do, but do not think that those who keep Kosher are idiotic children. That is beneath you.

[alternative childcare]

WSC: Thanks. Nothing works better for me than generalizations about millions of human beings all in one shot, but if you would only have also posted pictures, like Shmarya did of the bacon, then no one would mind :)

[WoolSilkCotton]

They lied about kosher food. It is not better. It does not make you better. It changes nothing. It is a way of keeping rabbis, schochtim, and the religious industry employed, at the expense of the rest of us Jews who they manipulate and brainwash into thinking that unkosher food is evil and bad for your soul. The notion of kosher food exists entirely in your mind, and nowhere else. The Torah says so? The Torah says a lot of things.

The orthodox world has been screwing with the minds of Jews for many centuries. You want to keep believing them? Be my guest, it's a free country.

Deciding to eat unkosher food does not mean you 'opt out'. Your or my Jewish membership card is 'lifetime', or whatever me or you want it to be.

Is God so petty that He's looking to screw Yabed for eating a Nathan's Hotdog? Pretty crappy God, with too much time on His hands, if that's the case.

Many, many Jews raised via religious brainwashing go through what Penn was describing. Religious people of other religions, too. Books and books have been written by those who have experienced this. Start with reading something easy, like Angela's Ashes. Then try Foreskin's Lament. Just google the topic.

Penn wasn't being a wise guy. He made a soul-to-soul connection with another person, not unlike himself, who also went through a major rethinking of what religion had done to his mind and his life.

Another person made it over the barbed wire, the searchlights, and the barking dogs. See you at Peter Luger's, friend.

[Yoel Mechanic]

WSC: I ask a provocative question, but in all sincerity: why eat treif? (And I mean eat, in all senses of the word...) For instance, I can certainly understand how someone would get "fed up" with all the sectarian squabbling. I could see how someone might leave one community, and make their way elsewhere. But how does that translate into eating treif? (Also, is it a straw man who told you lightening would strike or what? we all know those aren't the typical things one would hear) I'm not trying to criticize; I really am looking for real insight into how all this happens, and why.

[Just a Goy]

Frum & Teller - Great story !!!

[WoolSilkCotton]

David W, punishment is exactly what is implied when kids are told they must only eat kosher.

The spiritual experience is entirely your own choosing. No matter how kosher you keep, there is someone claiming you are not keeping kosher enough.
Kindly explain why most orthodox Jews won't eat Hebrew National. I'm sure there are religious folks who won't eat in your house. Please explain why.

Try your best to eat honestly, ethically, and healthy. Eat kosher if you'd like, and I wish you the best of health.

AC, you asked for my experiences and my opinion, and I gave you them as honestly and sincerely as possible, at the risk of having a lot of people here ticked off at me. If you'd like to see a picture of a hot shiksa, scroll back to the Britney Spears thread.

[Asa]

WSC, out of personal curiosity, allow me to inquire: did you ever think that maybe it's not the Torah you find obsolete, but the institution it has become? Surely there's more to God, and more to Torah, for that matter, than what the O institution has made it? I mean, what's the point of a Moshiach who'll come to teach us Torah in a whole new way, if what we're being taught now is as it ought to be? I just wonder, maybe it's not the "religion" you're fed up with, but the "religious".

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yoel: unlike the man who met Penn, I did not go looking for treif. I went to a nice (nonkosher) restaurant with friends, I ordered the chicken, and it was delicious. Nothing bad happened physically or mentally. I am still a good person. I am still Jewish, and just as much so, although you might disagree.

We fool ourselves with only eating tuna at the office cafeteria, or flounder fish in a nonkosher restaurant, and other such mind games we play on ourselves.

I have since had other chicken and beef meals in nice restaurants, and the meals were fine. No adverse effects physically or spiritually.
Remember, you get frustrated once and for all with the ortho world, and then eat nonkosher. You do not eat nonkosher, and then decide you don't like being orthodox.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Asa, good point. I've put in plenty of time studying the Torah, and I look at the orthodox, and I conclude that this could not possibly be what God thinks is the right way for a Jew to be.

i just got home from work, and I need to prepare for a lecture tomorrow. Will stop back later.

[Isa]

Did you know...

That chicken or rather poultry, biblically was not subject to the 'kosher' process, it was like fish. Only rabinically was it subject to myriad kosher regulations.

[pierre]

among other 'issues' was helping this guy regain even more weight.

[alternative childcare]

WSC: I was just kidding around, no need to get all Jewed up about it. Though you gotta admit, breaking down all the world's women into two categories is a bit reductionist. Beside, once you've had yemenite you never want back :)

[WoolSilkCotton]

Pierre: as if we need even more greasy foods in our diet!

Reductionist- the practice of analyzing and describing a complex phenomenon, esp. a mental, social, or biological phenomenon, in terms of phenomena that are held to represent a simpler or more fundamental level, esp. when this is said to provide a sufficient explanation.

AC: Guilty as charged! There are 2 kinds of people in this world- those who say there are 2 kinds of people in this world, and those who don't. Hmmm......yemenites, ehhh? :))

[Radical Feminist]

I have a bigger problem with people eating meat from sick animals raised on feed lots. obese in inhumane conditions
then I do about eating treif. Actually, the Rubashkin thing, combined with my concerns for my health, is one of themain reasons I started eating meat raised without hormones, grass fed and humanely slaughtered.

[YABED]

At the time of the Roman empire, about theyear zero AD, there were about 9 milllion Jews out of a population of 44 million people. Based on those figures, we should have over 440 million people now.

But we are not. Many were killed. Many were converted. Many opted out. We have only 16 million left.

If you are a Jew today, chances are tremendous that your grandparents were orthodox. If not, their parents were. They knew that Kosher was not a scam. They knew that there were 2 Torahs that were given out - a written law and an oral law. Your granparents were the survivors from the 16 million that are around now. And I hope that my grandchildren are included in that number.

Don't jump all over me and say that I drank the koolaid. Actually, it was mixed berry punch and I enjoyed drinking it, like my ancestors did for 2500 years.

I would like to continue this, but not with name calling. It does not add dignity to an intelligent conversation.

[steve]

He looks like he's straight of the Rocky Horror Show.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yabed, no one has done any name calling- yet!

Kosher was not a scam in my grandparents' day. Today it is.

If traditional Jewish religion is not sustainable, and cannot evolve in the right direction, than it will disappear. I will not row against the tide, on a journey that nobody else is interested in.
The vast majority of Jews in the world have made it abundantly clear that they have no interest in being orthodox Jews.

I hope traditional Judaism will make a resurgence, but I will not continue something just to continue something.
My grandparents did it? Yabed, you've got to be more persuasive than just applying guilt.
Yes, there was a lot of good stuff about being religious, but the baggage that seems inseparable from being orthodox has made me no longer interested.

[Asa]

WSC: By baggage I take it you mean the power politics? Politics in general? Sectarianism? If that's what you mean by baggage, isn't there some way of being orthodox without getting into that poisonous mix? If I, for example, decide to proceed with an orthodox conversion, does that necessarily signify shedding my honesty? The image of the three monkeys comes to mind.

[Dave Marshall]

WSC, you've got some good points. I am the proverbial guy whose grandparents were Orthodox.
I remember in the late 1960's, my Orthodox relatives would eat fish in a non-kosher restaurant. Now they don't.
I think the problem is that a lot of Orthodox have not just built a fence around the Torah, they've built a fence around the Talmud too. Stuff like kosher Ajax, for crying out loud? I wonder what the Rambam would say? I think he'd probably say "this is humrot gone amuck".
My ideal for Judaism would be about 1/3 of Jews being MO, 1/3 being Karaites, and 1/3 being some serious form of Conserva-form.
However secular Judaism seems to end up being no Judaism at all after a couple generations. Many of us also forget that the "default option" may initially be agnosticism/ atheism, but it soon turns into Christianity, at least in the West.

[Asa]

"I think the problem is that a lot of Orthodox have not just built a fence around the Torah, they've built a fence around the Talmud too."

Excellent point.

[MisterApikoros]

As the resident expert on shiksas here I have to say WSC is absolutely correct.

On the other hand, the first (and only) girl I fell in love with on the spot is Jewish.

[alternative childcare]

Wow, MrA, you really flatter yourself. How do you know that you are the "resident expert" on "shiksas"? How many different ethnicities of women did you actually sleep with?

[anycomment]

YABED,

The purpose of this site is to denigrate Orthodox Jews. If you need to be convinced see the post on June 17, 2009 titled
"Man Molests Two Brooklyn Hasidic Girls" where the site seeks to elicit humor from the molestation of 2 young girls.

if you're offended by comments that denigrate ethnic groups you're not likely to feel at home at this site.

[Asa]

The purpose of this site is to expose corrupt and criminal orthodox Jews.

[Asa]

When rabbis and Jewish leaders and judges mislead and break the trust of the Jews and converts who depend and rely on their guidance, they must be exposed. To belittle the posters of this site, from whom many of us newcomers to the religion have learned a great deal, to little more than bigots is unfair.

[Chicago Samson]

fences + fences = a labyrinth

[Yoel Mechanic]

WSC: perhaps I don't have a clear picture, yet, where you are coming from. Because you mentioned "trembling", I thought that meant you were from a Charedi background... at least sort of :) So I am still not quite sure what all the motivation behind all this is. I've learned (as no doubt everyone has) that eating non-kosher food dulls one's spiritual sensitivity.. but by definition there is no way someone can test it on themselves, for if their sensitivity is dulled then they may not be able to sense this loss.

But I'm not looking for spiritual explanations; just more of a social explanation (and that is not so easy to express either. perhaps we are all a bit of a mystery, even to ourselves) Still, if you have further insights to share, I am very happy to hear.

Also, as an aside: it's questionable how much a newcomer to "religion" can benefit from this site. Only someone who is very mature can benefit from this (I'm not even sure if I benefit from it) So it's possible newcomer's can benefit (and I hope they do!) but I feel sorry for anyone immature who wanders into all this.

A warning label perhaps: For Mature Audiences Only. hehe.

[Yoel Mechanic]

WSC: why were you interested in Orthodox Judaism to begin with, and how did you loose that interest?

A further comment, about your remark that most Jews are not interested in orthodox Judaism, and it not evolving, etc. I have yet to hear anyone provide a full accounting of the hidden corrosive effects of kiruv, and the whole kiruv movement. I don't know if everything can be blamed on this (maybe a small amount of blame only?) but the kiruv movement has given us a lot of nice sounded rhetoric, but lacking in long term wisdom and historical foundation, and also lacking in scientific foundation (yes!) Is there a backlash going on? (mabye!). Also, it seems the kiruv rhetoric is the stuff we tell *them*, but not the stuff we tell *THEM*, if you know what I mean :)

Is there any chance this has caused problems?

A final comment: history shows that religious movements have A LOT more staying power than one can ever expect. So don't expect any movement to disappear quickly. The Reform was supposed to disappear in 3 generations... it didn't. The Orthodox is supposed to disappear...it won't.

[Asa]

Not a newcomer to religion, a newcomer to this religion.

And this newcomer, for one, has benefitted and continues to benefit. Had I not checked this site out I may have been sucked into the groupthink of Chabad and chassidism, I may have hung a picture of the Rebbe up on my wall, I may never have had the chance to open-mindedly discuss Judaism and the Jewish world with honest individual Jewish persons, and thus come into it more honestly than I ever could have as a groupthinker. Other sites I frequent (non-chassid orthodox and non-religious) as well share the credit.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Good points raised by all my fellow FM voyagers here.

Yoel, I never used the word 'trembling'.

I am still looking for an explanation as to why the orthodox don't eat Hebrew National. Is the meat not slaughtered and processed as per Jewish Law? Are the utensils there not kosher? Is dairy, or other forbidden ingredients, added? If the answer to these questions is no, then an entire industry is being smeared by idiotic rumor and innuendo. And yet we all know that that is exactly the reasoning for the ortho's not eating HN.

But that is a small point. I'm at work now, and it's busy here, and so will check back later to elaborate on other feelings.

[Ben]

We have to admit that Orthodox and especially ultr-Orthodox have 3 great advantages when we compare them with the "reasonable" Jews. The haredis create families, in-marry and multiply.

[MisterApikoros]

Many, including Jewish. At least you acknowledge that I'm straight, unlike yourself.

Now go swing a rooster over your head, and transfer your homosexual urges to the bird.

[Bob C.]

Yabed,
Who says that there are "two Torahs"? Why should I believe the rabbis who invented the Jewish religion? Judaism post-Churban has NO RESEMBLENCE to Judaism during the time of the Temple.

GIVE ME PROOF that Judaism, with its made up Mishna, Midrash'im, Talmud, Shulchan Aurach etc is ANY MORE LEGITIMATE than Christianity or Islam. Islam claims that it's the true faith and that there's no other truth. Christianity claims that it's the true faith, in fact, so does Mormonism.

All claim exegetical proof that their "added on laws and stories" are "oral traditions" that have as much legitimacy as Torah itself. Why do you claim that your made-up Mishna, Talmud etc is any more legitimate than the other religions' added-on writings and traditions?

[harold]

Now that’s what I call covering Orthodox Judaism, an interview with an atheist about his jollies feeding a Jew his first non-kosher meal. What next and interview with a pedophile describing his first sexual encounter?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Bob C. check out Karaite websites.

I would not return to eating pork even if I lost my faith. I would not, in honor of my culture and ancestors.

I don't care for Penn and Teller. I find them vaguely creepy. And they use neo-atheist arguments from ridicule, rather than intellectually compelling ones, against religion.

But for everyone, freedom of conscience is key, as far as I am concerned.

[Asa]

Bob C., Yochanan, I'm with the both of you.

On the one hand, Bob, I know where you're coming from. I honor halacha theoretically, and plan on honoring it actually once I've converted, but I can't bring myself to believe in "Two Torahs". I believe the oral law has to be an evolving entity. I could be wrong, but if the Torah is the Word of God, then it must be infinitely meaninful, and thus lends itself to reinterpretation in every generation. To treat Halacah as if it were static and done with is to say the Torah is mortal, not immortal, wisdom.

On the other hand, YL, I know where you're coming from too. Penn has always bugged me. I appreciate intelligent dialogue with atheists, but those who attack religion from ridicule, as you put it, are useless.

On the other hand (too much Fiddler on the Roof, I guess), "freedom of conscience"...I'm not so sure. After all, criminals commit crimes with clean consciences all the time. I doubt that conscience makes such a good guide.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Asa: I meant freedom of religious/philosophical conscience. Read John Milton's "Aereopagitica" which can be found online.

[Bob C.]

Yochanan, Eating pork is not the issue. The eating of pork is prohibited by Torah. The type of sch'chita knife to use, or the covering of the head, or the putting on of Tefillin is not prescribed by Torah, but made up by the ancient post-Temple Jewish sages. Does any literature from the Temple period mention Tefillin? How about the principles of what is considered Kosher slaughter?

[Asa]

I've read it. Twice. But even freedom of religious/philosophical conscience. I'm wary of it. It'd seem, then, that "all is permitted".

[Yochanan Lavie]

Bob: I am also skeptical about rabbinic claims. Look at Karaite websites and make up your own mind. In case you don't know, they reject rabbinic Judaism and have their own kind of Judaism and interpretive tradition. They're very interesting.

Asa: All is permitted to be believed, not to be acted upon. For actions, the Golden Rule applies. And making choices means accepting the consequences of those choices, including the possibility that you may displease God. Freedom of conscience is not the same as anarchy. It means freedom from coercion, or from making phony declarations you don't believe in order to please others.

[Westsider]

Posting this video feels to be very mean spirited and not in the spirit of your other postings.

[Asa]

YL: I see what you're saying. But we act according to what we believe. If I believe one thing but act not in accordance to my belief, I'm already acting, in a sense, in order to please others, based on external things such as societal acceptance, etc. But consequences, the displeasing of God, these apply only to the conscience that is concerned with them or believes in them to begin with. Conscience and anarchy aren't the same thing, yes, but conscience is either the enabler or the preventer. Plenty of actions feel right, such as a bacon cheeseburger to the fellow Penn's talking about. But I couldn't begin to refine my conscience if I base what is right on what feels right.

If the Golden Rule is to apply, then a proper, objective concept of Justice has to be in place in the conscience; otherwise the conscience sets up its own justice system according to what it believes to be right and good and just.

[Dave Marshall]

Excellent posts Yochanan, Bob, and Asa.
In the "old days" when many of us did not know enough Hebrew or Aramaic, heck a lot of us were only partially literate, it did indeed make sense to a very firm system with lots of fences and the Talmud being very important. At that time, had the Karaite theology won out against the rabbonim, it would have made Jewish continuity harder, since Karaite teachings require one to make a very serious study of Tanach and (I would argue) also other post-Tanach- in effect, to be a serious Karaite, one has to learn Hebrew and Aramaic, or at least make a serious effort. In the "old days" the access to printed books was very limited, this was hundreds of years before the internet, so at that time we needed the rabbinical enforcers to give a pre-digested version of Tanach and Talmud. Now however, Karaism should become as important a stream of Judaism as Reform or Conservative, since Karaism is traditional and requires serious study. Nowadays we have very easy access to Torah learning and learning of Hebrew and Aramaic, so Karaism's ideas have become newly relevant and worthwhile.

[MisterApikoros]

The main purpose of Kashrut, as most of you know, has nothing to do with preventing trichanosis or other food-borne diseases. The most serious food-borne disease, botulism, comes from improperly canned food and there's nothing in the Torah prescribing canning of food.

Kashrut was, and is, a way of self-segregating Jews from Gentiles. If a Jew couldn't eat pork, lobster, shellfish, or a cheeseburger, he couldn't patronize restaurants which sold such items, such as McDonald's, nor could he eat at homes which weren't strictly kosher.

Kosher wine drives this point home even more. There is nothing inherently treyfe about wine. However, drinking is for most of us a social event, and if Jews couldn't drink non-kosher wine (Kosher wine is manufactured by Shabbot-observing Jews), it eliminated them from social activities involving Gentiles. It makes no difference if Kosher wine is better or worse than non-Kosher wine; that's not the point and never was.

For most of my life, I believed that the point of Kashrut was to ensure the health of Jews at a time when there was no such thing as refrigeration, and at a time when microbes were unheard-of. Now I know differently. So I simply believed Kashrut was archaic.

Now I know differently. Kashrut is exclusionary, ever bit as much as the old real estate covenants which barred Jews from living in say, Bronxville, NY, and which were held illegal by the US Supreme Court in the late 1950's. For this reason I thoroughly reject it.

[MisterApikoros]

Sorry, I meant "proscribing."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Every culture has food taboos. Why should Jewish culture be an exception- whether from God or not? There is more to being Jewish than refraining from pork, but it's an important symbol. I won't dishonor my ancestors by consuming it, even if ti wasn't mandated by God.