Satmar Tells Obama To Crack Down On Israel

The mayor of Kiryas Joel sends anti-Zionist letter to the President.

The letter is published on the Jews Against Zionism website.

Strangely, the JTA, which published excerpts from the letter and links to the PDF download of the letter from the Jews Against Zionism website, doesn't note the Jews Against Zionism connection.

Please click to enlarge:

Here is the official Kiryas Joel press release:

Mayor of Jewish Town Sends Letter of Support to President for Middle East Peace EffortMonroe, NY - July 7, 2009: Abraham Wieder, mayor of Kiryas Joel, New York, wrote a letter last week to President Barack Obama, praising his “noble efforts” to stop the “senseless bloodshed” in the Middle East. 

The letter was written in reaction to the anti-Obama rhetoric of some religious pro-settler organizations, which have become increasingly vocal in recent weeks as the Obama administration continues to push the Israeli government to curb settlement growth in the West Bank as a prerequisite for a peace settlement. 

Wieder’s letter reads in part, “Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity; its preservation and the prevention of bloodshed are its more central tenet. When life is in jeopardy all commandments that guide Jewish life must be set aside in order to preserve human life. My heart therefore aches over the endless loss of innocent life just to hold on to lands inhabited by one’s enemies. I therefore deeply respect and support you and pray that divine providence guides your every move. 

“Some Israeli politicians resist relinquishing any part of the holy land claiming religious prohibitions. This is wholly fallacious! In fact, after the destruction of Israel in 69 CE, Jews were commanded to await divine redemption and prohibited from conquering the land. To this day Jews yearn and pray for the divinely inspired return to Jerusalem… The modern State of Israel stands in contravention of the Almighty’s prohibition. Its effort to cloak itself in religion as a means of continuing the contravention of the Almighty is laughable if it weren’t so sad.”

“This important letter comes at a time when many Jews in our community are upset over the militant Zionist groups who appear to be representing Orthodox Jews,” said Rabbi Dovid Shlome Eckstein, a rabbi representing the organization True Torah Jews and a close associate of Mr. Wieder. “Our mayor is doing his job in expressing our sentiments, and we hope the President gets the message.”     

Kiryas Joel, http://www.kjvoice.com, with a population of 20,000, is the largest all-Jewish town in the United States. 

The acquisition of 800 acres of woods in 1974 in the town of Monroe in Orange County The acquisition of 800 acres of woods in 1974 in the town of Monroe in Orange County marked the beginning of Kiryas Joel. Leaders of the Williamsburg community set out to build housing for some of the lower income families in Wiliamsburg, whose large families required more space than the Brooklyn community afforded them. Most of the elderly residents in Kiryas Joel are survivors of the Holocaust, having escaped death at the hands of the Nazis.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

Relocate Curious Joel to Heimand province in Afghanistan.

[Ben]

Mr. Rabbi Wielder is going to await his redemtive return to Jerusalem under the leadership of Satmarer rav himself probably. In the mean time he is perfectly willing to sacrifice this reshoim who abandoned 2000 year wait and moved to Land of Israel now. What a good hearted genocidal fellow. I am sure he is expecting to get greater welfare checks for his butt kissing , as well as more lenient sentences for Satmarer thiefs both already convinced and the ones not caught yet (Mr/Rabbi Weilder being one of them of course).

[MisterApikoros]

I am going to send this motherfucker a letter of my own. Since when does Kiryas Joel, which is an incorporated village, make foreign policy? This letter was written on official Kiryas Joel stationery.

It says very clearly in the United States Constitution that only the State Department makes foreign policy. The mayor of Kiryas Joel can go to hell, along with the rest of his village.

[MisterApikoros]

YL, Relocating Kiryas Joel to Poland, where it belongs, is good enough for me.

[Althelion]

Kiryas Joel is just a hop-skip and jump from being Jonestown, Guyana.

[Alana]

Right there is another reason to rightfully question authority and at the same time another to shake our heads in shame over the current state of the world

[Just a Goy]

Weider has a point - Sad there're those that aren't heeding, willing to listen. There's significant validity in his worlds - With particular emphasis on suffering, by all parties.

I'm not saying, the end of Israel - Just a more plural means of existence; secular, while respecting all - Far less theocratic functionality. There is a healthy medium in there, somewhere.

Obama isn't anti Israel, he's just anti hypocrite - Think about it; based upon previous agreements, clearly a lack of adherence to terms.

Do we want an Israel which is respected by the international community, or simply loathed, mocked, deemed untrustworthy, stereotyped...?

[Just a Goy]

Wieder NOT Weider; my bad

[Dr. Dave]

I wonder how much of the budget deficit could be alleviated by taxing hats and wigs that cost over $500.00, by investigating and clamping down on welfare, medicare and medicaid fraud in Kiryas Joel.

Just wondering - i'm no moser.

[critical_minyan]

for people so against being mosers they have no trouble ratting on the state of israel and all the jews there.
fuck them. the lowest pieces of shit out there.
no scorn is too much for these ganavim.

[MisterApikoros]

I don't have a beef with Obama (not on this issue, anyway), and in fact agree with his Middle East position more than I disagree. I believe the only solution is a two-state one, as do the overwhelming majority of Israelis.

My beef is with the hypocritical nature of Wieder's (pronounced "Weeder") letter. In his last paragraph, he gives the typical frumbag argument that Israel is illegitimate because it is, despite the Herculean efforts of the frumbags to make it otherwise, a secular state.

Imagine if Michael Bloomberg, who's just as Jewish as Wieder, sent a letter like this to Obama on official NYC stationery. His opponents would have a field day, which would be a good thing, because two terms of the Mayor For Life is enough.

[Alex]

Weider should cut his nuts off so that he could no longer procreate

[Ben]

Just a Goy, you missed the point the mayor of Kiriat Joel actually stated that state of Israel is illegitemate regardless of 1 or 2 state solution, because his Satmarer rave told that Jews will return to Israel only when Messiah comes. This is this goup's official ideology.

Kiriat Joel, coincidentally is the center of of thievery and public funds fraud of every type.

[justayid]

So, if I am a Palestinian, I can buy a house and be accepted in wonderful multicultural Kiryas Joel? How about if I am a Shwangunk Indian, a descendent of the displaced people of Orange County? Last I heard even non-hasidic Jews are unwelcome in KJ.

The irony is that KJ is effectively a Zionist/territorialist project, and an extremist one at that EXCEPT for its location in non-holy ground. This is NOT a liberal or dovish objection to settlements at all, its merely the usual Satmar assault on the democratic state of Israel.

[justayid]

"I'm not saying, the end of Israel "

but that is PRECISELY what Wieder is saying. He doesnt want a more secular jewish state, he wants one that isnt secular at all, one thats founded by the messiah. As for his own municipality, it pushes against the limits of the wall of seperateion, here in a country where the seperation of church and state is part of the constitution.

[David]

It seems to me that EVERTHING in the letter is correct. And at least this view is consistent (unlike most of the "Torah-True" world that has sold out on these views). And they don't insert any of that NK BS that helps our enemies. (Of course, those who believe that anything other than lockstep support for the settlers helps our enemies will not be impressed).

The fact that other Satmarers may be caught up in scandals or have some silly or nasty beliefs of one sort or another is neither here nor there, and is an ad hominen argument. It has no more relevance to the contents of the letter than the fact that some religious Zionists are borderline-reminiscent (to put it nicely) of the Jews' worst persecutors does to Zionism as a whole.

They have every right to comment on foreign policy, along with any other Americans. Especially when others claim to speak with the moral authority of Torah. In fact they certainly have as much right as those who just make Torah up as they go along to justify their ultra-Nationalist political views.

[David]

I read this again. I cannot find anything here to disagree with. Can those who are so worked up about this letter please point something here that's wrong.

And by the way, it is the State of Israel's "effort to cloak itself in religion" that is the prime objection of this letter. Not the mere existence of Israel.

[Alternative Childcare]

MrA, stick to WWII/Nazi material, which you know better. The Satmar don't oppose Israel because it is a secular state, they would oppose it equally if it were a religious state. Their opposition goes way back, to VaYoel Moshe, and is based on a reading of the Gemora, the section on the "shvuoys" as they pronounce it.
I'm sure every president of the US, and probably every NY governor, etc, got a similar letter from these guys or the Neturei Karta. Its their "tradition".

[David]

"Imagine if Michael Bloomberg, who's just as Jewish as Wieder, sent a letter like this to Obama on official NYC stationery."

Oh really???

Do you doubt that every Mayor of NYC sends letters in support of Israel and "Solidarity with Israel" to as many US politicians as possible?

[Proud jew]

To Just a Goy...
That Israel is loathed is the world's hypocritically prejudiced sickness , not Israel's fault . The world is anti-Semitic. What , you really believe that if it goes totally secular the world will now love Jews? Please..." Just a more plural means of existence". Really ?! ...

[justayid]

whats wrong with it, David? Where to beigin

"Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity; its preservation and the prevention of bloodshed are its more central tenet. When life is in jeopardy all commandments that guide Jewish life must be set aside in order to preserve human life."

well then. If Israel protects Jewish life, which we secular Zionists believe it does, then that should override any commandment Satmar claims doesnt allow its establishment. Is Satmar honest enough to admit that?

" My heart therefore aches over the endless loss of innocent life just to hold on to lands inhabited by one’s enemies."

Which lands inhabited by ones enemies? the territories? Or Israel "proper". Disingenous to elide the distinction. Are Israeli arabs inevitably our enemies? Maybe Satmar, and, OTOH, Kach think so. I dont.

[justayid]

"Some Israeli politicians resist relinquishing any part of the holy land claiming religious prohibitions. This is wholly fallacious!"

No likud politician has mentioned religious prohibitions, AFAIK. Only Bayit Yehudi and Shas pols have. As obamas main concern is with Bibi, not the religious parties, this is misleading.

Also, moderate religious Zionists agree that land can be withdrawn from Pikuach Nefesh, which overrides other commandments. Of course to emphasize this honestly, Satmar would ahve to admit that Pikuach Nefesh can also justify the establishment of Israel.

"In fact, after the destruction of Israel in 69 CE, Jews were commanded to await divine redemption and prohibited from conquering the land."

No. There is one line in the Talmud that Satmar and some others read this way, but its far from that clear. If he were to quote the actual line, the reader could see that its not clear, which is why he paraphrases.

" To this day Jews yearn and pray for the divinely inspired return to Jerusalem… The modern State of Israel stands in contravention of the Almighty’s prohibition."

see above.

"Its effort to cloak itself in religion as a means of continuing the contravention of the Almighty is laughable if it weren’t so sad.”

The state has for the most part justified itself by history and practicality, while adopting the symbols of the Jewish people. It has NOT cloaked itself in religion. If Satmars main concern is for ISrael to be less cloaked in religion, they are welcome to vote for Meretz, which wishes to deentangle the state from religion. They will not, as Meretz is "too Zionist" for them. In fact they dont what a secular Israel, they want NO Jewish sovereigntly in ISrael, and so they are dishonest.

Yet they want to maximize Jewish sovereignty in Orange County New York.

[David]

What crap written by justayid.

It is crystal clear what the letter means. Only a disingenous twisting by a mind infected with the pathology of constantly parsing for offensive unintented implications in order to score propaganda points could fail to see otherwise.

The letter does not call for Obama to lend his support to the end of the State of Israel, in whatever form, religious or secular. You have set this up as a straw man, and all your arguments attack this straw man.

The letter's object is OBVIOUSLY to provide a counterpoint to those who DO cloak their Right Wing Zionist politics on Torah. To wit: Those who say "not an inch," the Extreme Right Wing settler rabbis and their followers and other supporters and fellow travelers (in Israel and in other places). THAT is his objection: Using Torah to justify those policies.

Specifically:

1. I don't understand your objection to his "Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity" point. The only people who disgree with that are those who now believe that actually, any and every inch of Eretz Yisroel is inherently more important than human life. ie Some of the settler rabbi crowd (again, the intended object of the letter). This is not directed at the very existence of the State, clearly.

2. "Which lands inhabited by ones enemies?" Well duh. Do you really need to ask what he means?

3. He says "Some Israeli politicians resist relinquishing any part of the holy land claiming religious prohibitions." And then you say "No likud politician has mentioned religious prohibitions...Only Bayit Yehudi and Shas pols have." Sorry, are those not Israeli politicans, and part of the government?

4. You say "The state has NOT cloaked itself in religion." Well sure, but once again the letter does not attempt to persuade Obama to support the destruction of the State of Israel. It asks him to ignore those who claim Torah as the reason for supporting Right Wing politics in Israel that place land over peace. IE THOSE WHO DO CLOAK THEIR POLITICS IN RELIGION!!!!

[MisterApikoros]

The Satmars have the moral authority of a turd.

You know damned well, David, what the Satmars want, so don't be disingenuous. It's the same thing that Osama bin Laden wanted (and presumably still does, assuming he's not dead) in Afghanistan, which is a bunch of religious, and corrupt zealots running the country.

By the way, that letter, being that it's written on official Kiryas Joel stationery, also violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, in the same way as if a fundamentalist mayor of an Alabama town repeatedly invoked the name of Jesus Christ.

[mordecai]

If G-d truly gave us the Torah, he must have done so to see how we would interpret it. Jews battle each other over word meaning, punctuations, turns of phrases, interpretations, etc. Amazingly one interpretation tells us to be a Zionist and the other not to be. One interpretation tells us it is work to turn on an electric light on shabbos and another tells us differently. And we will riot, picket, boycott over all of this. G-D should help us in out foolishness.

As it is written in Proverbs. "Better to meet a she-bear robbed of her cubs than a fool in his folly."

[alternative childcare]

Mister Apikoros, you are best off sticking to your Nazi/WWII material.
You continuously reveal that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Jewish matters, no matter how many foul words you use.
The Satmar don't oppose Israel because it is a secular state, they would oppose it equally if it were a religious state. Their opposition goes way back, to VaYoel Moshe, the founder of their group, and is based on a reading of the Talmud, with regards to the "shvuoys" that Gd made with the Jewish people. One may disagree, but no one denies R. Yoel's moral authority.

[Ben]

David, to start your counter argument with "What crap written by justayid" is stupid. However I must admit that this phrase, as despicable as it is, was the best part of your long comment. The rest of it so shallow that it does not warrant any respose. It is a waste of time to argue with hot headed and poorly uneducated personalities.

[Ben]

AC, "no one denies R. Yoel's moral authority." ???? I don't know what you are talking about. The are many more people who indeed deny R.Yoel's moral authority then those who do not. In fact many people think that this guy was immoral.

[DeLion]

The Satmar rebbe (all of them) are POS. They are irrelevant dirt bags that perpetuate poverty and suppression of all freedoms. The only issue that Obama should be aware of is the systematic shnorring and pillaging of every possible welfare program that goes on in the Satmar community. Satmar hasnt contributed anything to America, Society or Judaism. Its time for their fraud to be exposed!! They are pirates with no loyalty to anything. They dont even have the decency to learn the language of the land. 99% of them would fail a 4th grade Social Studies test. ALL THEY DO IS TAKE. I SAY WE CARVE OUT KJ AND SEND THEM ALL TO ROMANIA

[DeTiger]

I am really tired of being embarrassed by Satmar and Co. Most "chasidim" today do not belong in America. They are disguising examples of humanity and are the least tolerant of people. They put on a show of religion and piety to the world but they are vile racists and crooks to boot. It's high time we quit making excuses for them. Their actions and behavior will lead to their own political and social demise. I think it is our obligation to publicly dissociate ourselves from them and all the other pirates on welfare and declare Judaism free of these animals. I have little concern for archaic terms like mesirah which have zero relevance in our abundant medina shel chesed. We have it better today in terms of freedom and privilege than during the time of the Second Temple! things are going to change and the world will learn who Satmar and Co. really are...

[alternative childcare]

Ben: I suppose you are right. What I meant was that his readings on this subject were taken seriously, and his books are considered valid and studied, even among those who disagree. As far as some of the personal issues, Kastner, etc, point well taken.
However, the reading of the shavuot at the end of Ketubot remains a thorny issue among those who take midrash and talmud seriously.
At any rate, the matter is not about whether or not there is a traditional or secular leadership in Israel, its whether Jews are "allowed" to rise up again in Israel at all.

[DeTiger]

The Satmar Rasha suffered from post traumatic stress disorder, coupled with survivor's guilt which manifested itself as vitriol and venom, biting the hand that saved him . He realized that his very existence was owed to the Zionists to whom he dedicated a lifetime of hate. He could not tolerate Israel's victorious triumph and therefore retreated like a cockroach to America...spreading his intolerance to our shores.

[libby in the hood]

DeTiger: I agree with your posts but unfortunately our politicians especially in New York kiss these gonif asses because they vote as a block. They (Satmars)deliver the vote for any politician that gives them what they want. The ending line of the letter I especially like "May G-ds blessing be upon you and your family" Funny, you know what they are calling Obama (the "S" word)...that's assuming that the average Satmar knows who the President of the United States is.

[nobody]

"I don't have a beef with Obama (not on this issue, anyway), and in fact agree with his Middle East position more than I disagree. I believe the only solution is a two-state one, as do the overwhelming majority of Israelis."

How exactly do you define "overwhelming majority" ?

This sounds like the rhetoric of "Peace Now," but it doesn't sound like the truth. Nor does the recent election of Netanyahu reflect that the Israelis are happy with the direction Kadima was going. And their direction WAS consistent with the assumptions of Peace Now.

[nobody]

"some religious Zionists are borderline-reminiscent (to put it nicely) of the Jews' worst persecutors "

Talk about willful and malicious delusion. Whatever gets you (and all of us) to believe the myth that the settlers are the reason there's a conflict, right? Any falsehood will do?

[nobody]

Let's also further point out that that "one line in the Talmud" was midrash agada, NOT HALACHA! At least aside from the Satmar Rav and a few polemicists, it was not taken as halacha by the Jewish authorities. Certainly not in rishonim.

[nobody]

David said,

"The only people who disgree with that are those who now believe that actually, any and every inch of Eretz Yisroel is inherently more important than human life. ie Some of the settler rabbi crowd "

That is patently false. Jews of Yosh (they are not "settlers" they are legal residents, citizens of Israel), and other rightwing nationalists, whether secular or religious (yes, rightwing secular nationalists exist in Israel), consider that giving away land is itself a danger to lives. And history has proven them correct. That keeping and maintaining Israeli sovereignty over problematic areas is a better way to safeguard lives (one could even argue both Israeli and innocent Arab lives) is proven by the evidence. Israel's infiltration of operations and interference/prevention of PLO terrorism in Judea and Samaria has been superb since they re-entered. On the other hand, witness Gaza. It is clear that people are more safe under Israeli control. There is no reason to give away land, that certainly will NOT 'solve the conflict,' and it puts more lives in danger to do so. Any well-wishing onlookers from afar do not really have arguments against the simple truths of real-life events and common sense that many Israelis comprehend.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Jews and only the Jews, of all the world's peoples, work to deligitimize their own state. You don't hear of Italians wanting to return Italy to the Papal States and Austria. Yet chassidic religious fanatics on the far right and Jewish leftists of the far left schrei gevalt about Israel's very existence. What the hell is wrong with us?

Mr. A: What do you have against the Dear Leader of the People's Republic of NYC, RINO Bloomberg? (/sarcasm).

[Friar_Yid]

Relocating Kiryas Joel to Poland, where it belongs, is good enough for me.

Poland? Satmar was in Hungary (now Romania).

[MisterApikoros]

Even better. Send 'em to Transylvania.

[MisterApikoros]

Justayid: There's nothing "Zionist" about Kiryas Joel, the instant slum that pollutes Orange County. If you're not a Satmar scumbag, just try buying property and living there. See how welcome you'd be. Blacks living in Dearborn, Michigan during the 1930's would have been more welcome.

Not that anyone in their right mind would want to live anywhere near this unacknowledged Superfund site.

[WoolSilkCotton]

A long as they deliver the block vote, and campaign money, a politician in New York will listen.

No such politician will interfere with the welfare fraud or the other crimes, for fear of having his opponent supported.

Lots of mayors send letters to the President, in order to appease their little world of constituents. These letters can be found in the White House recycling dumpster.

[Barry]

“Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity; its preservation and the prevention of bloodshed are its more central tenet. When life is in jeopardy all commandments that guide Jewish life must be set aside in order to preserve human life."

David, that statement by Weider is plainly untrue. Reb Baruch Ber quoted the Chofetz Chaim as saying, "The Jews of Russia made a mistake in not fighting the Bolsheviks with the sword and spear...even though they would die, they would weaken the force of evil and we would win." Surely in order to save the lives of these Jews and their Bolshevik enemies (many of whom were lapsed Jews), it would have been better to "set aside the commandments" and allow the communists to implement their anti clerical agenda than resort to the "sword or spear".

On his website Rabbi David Eidensohn writes that

" The decision of Reb Elchonon Wasserman to refuse to help students go to certain Yeshivas that boasted college programs sounds very strange, but let us again examine the historical reality.

A student in YU in those times, and probably today as well, had to study science and evolution from teachers and texts that were deniers of Torah and Creation. A student was also influenced by other types of thoughts considered treife and even minuse by Reb Elchonon, for good reasons. The halacha is clear. Rather than going to a place of minuse one must die"

David, do you agree that Rabbi Eidensohn is correct over the Halacha. Is it better to be die at the hands of an enemy then be taught geology or evolution which may lead one to deny the 13 principles?

Then there is the din of moridim v’ein ma’alim which is hardly respectful of life.

David you are being disingenuous in denying that Israel's secularism goes to the root of their hatred (which they once openly held for the USA and why they chose to create their ghetto in Kiryas Yoel). Satmar hate and wish to see the downfall of Jews who escape their backward and primitive ideology whether to Israel or the Treife Medina because their backward and primitive ideology requires such a downfall as proof of God's righteous anger. They are the equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church and their ideology is everything that Obama stands against. Obama is a secular democrat. For him the statement that "in fact, after the destruction of Israel in 69 CE, Jews were commanded to await divine redemption" is as delusional and fanatic a statement as anything said by the craziest settler in Hebron, or come to think of it the Rev Jeremiah Wright and Adam Gadahn.

[justayid]

" "Which lands inhabited by ones enemies?" Well duh. Do you really need to ask what he means?"

Yes I do. Nablus and Ramallah and settlements nearby?

Or Tel Aviv and Haifa and Herzliya and Netanya?

Everyone here knows, and you know, that Satmar ideology opposes Israeli rule over BOTH. The letter is cleverly formulated to elide the distinction.

Just as it elides the distinction between supporting parties in the coalition and the leaders who make decisions on security policy.

It is profoundly dishonest in that regard, and you are repeating that dishonesty, I am afraid.

Mandatory self-disclosure - I am a life long Labor Zionist, who now supports Livni and Kadima, who wants a two state solution, with withdrawl from MOST of the West Bank and from MOST of the settlements, and who wish vehemently for less settler influence, less influence from Habayit Hayehudi and Shas, etc.

But I AM a Zionist, I DO believe that the state of Israel was necessary for Pikuach Nefesh, and I will not let Satmar ideologues disguise themselves a moderate doves.

If Satmar is dovish, and wishes to live in peace with gentiles, they should focus their efforts on intercommunity relations in Williamsburg and Orange County first.

[justayid]

"I don't understand your objection to his "Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity" point. The only people who disgree with that are those who now believe that actually, any and every inch of Eretz Yisroel is inherently more important than human life."

My point precisely. IE most Zionists do not disagree with the point. Including doves (religious zionist doves as well, like Meimad) and also security hawks, including the Likud, and at least some hwakish religious Zionists. His implication that the point leads naturally to Satmar ideology is incorrect.

[justayid]

"He says "Some Israeli politicians resist relinquishing any part of the holy land claiming religious prohibitions." And then you say "No likud politician has mentioned religious prohibitions...Only Bayit Yehudi and Shas pols have." Sorry, are those not Israeli politicans, and part of the government"

They are, but they are not whom the Obama administration is negotiating with. Have any of them come to Washington? Have they met with George Mitchell or other Admin reps? Not AFAIK. the admin is negotiating with Bibi and Barak, and occasionally meeting Leiberman (because of his nominal portfolio). Ergo, the point about Shas and Habeyit Hayehudi ideology is red herring, designed, as red herrings are, to distract from the essential debate.

[justayid]

"You say "The state has NOT cloaked itself in religion." Well sure, but once again the letter does not attempt to persuade Obama to support the destruction of the State of Israel."

thats not clear, as he also says "The modern State of Israel stands in contravention of the Almighty’s prohibition. "

"It asks him to ignore those who claim Torah as the reason for supporting Right Wing politics in Israel that place land over peace. IE THOSE WHO DO CLOAK THEIR POLITICS IN RELIGION"

But there is no reason to beleive he is listening to those people. In fact there is abundant evidence that he is not. So again, its at best a red herring.

One might also ask, if Satmar objects to the cloaking of politics with religion, if they are prepared to suggest to their followers that one should not defer to ones rebbe in making voting choices.

[alternative childcare]

justayid: "The modern State of Israel stands in contravention of the Almighty’s prohibition. " not because it is secular, but because it exists at all, as a "violation" of the shevuah that klal yisrael took upon themselves. I'm not saying I'm in agreement, but it helps in opposing them if one fights the correct argument.
Needless to say, they believe that when moshiach does come, the whole world will be like them. I don't know if he'll make everyone learn Hungarian though, that might be only for the elite :) Yo ishtenem!

nobody: Unfortunately, the argument that none of the rishonim took this seriously is not true, in fact, one of the issues the early religious Zionists had to deal with was that virtually all the Rishonim did take it seriously.

[Responsible Citizen]

Well at least the Satmar are consistent. Here in Chicago, I get to listen to avowedly anti-Zionist charedim take the most hardline positions on the Arab-Israeli conflict while at the same time disavowing the legitimacy of Medinat Yisrael. You can't have it both ways. They remind me of southern segregationists, during the Civil Rights era, who screamed "state's rights" when it came to school integration but had no problem taking federal money for entitlement programs.

[David]

More rubbish.

Ben doesn't like that I said "crap." How about addressing some of the actual arguements instead of filling us in on what a baby you are??

justayid, you are still arguing against the straw man you set up. Oh, plus the old "if you want to give up Hevron that means you must want to give up Tel Aviv" chestnut. One of the more idiotic pieces of "reasoning" known to man.

Mr Apokoros, you are talking about Neturei Karta, not Satmar. NK are not even Chasidim, but ignorant people confuse the two.

Nobody: You are very confused. There are people who argue "not an inch" for security reasons. And there are people who argue "not an inch" because "God said so" and because they claim Israel is the beginning or is the sign of Moshiach and holding onto every inch is added to the short list of items for which a Jew must give up his life (ie is more important than human life). There are LOTS of rabbis who make this argument, so don't pretend like they don't exist and that it's just the security issue! I didn't say these people are the cause of the conflict - but they will bring the destruction of Israel, just like the fanatical crazies at the time of the 2nd Temple who were not the "cause of the conflict," but helped blow it up into something much much worse than it started out.

These people are FAR MORE dangerous and offensive than Satmar or any other slightly crazy Chassidishe sect because they have guns and bombs and they believe they are on a mission from God!!!

[David]

Responsible Citizen - you will find that Satmar are generally not among those you are describing (supposedly anti-Zionist chareidim who also hold extreme Right-Wing nationalist views). The main ones who fit the picture you describe are Lubavitch, but let's not even go there...

I forgot to mention Barry. You cannot be serious. What is anyone supposed to base on the random quotes you provide? And you are right, they are crazy religious fanatics, but unlike the Hebron settlers you use as an analogy, they don't have guns and bombs and they aren't sitting on a powder keg they'll blow up at the drop of a hat if they think it's going to help them hold on to every last inch.

[justayid]

"justayid, you are still arguing against the straw man you set up. Oh, plus the old "if you want to give up Hevron that means you must want to give up Tel Aviv" chestnut. One of the more idiotic pieces of "reasoning" known to man."

You are either a sloppy reader or dishonest. I made it very clear in the above that I myself DO want to give up Hebron, and do NOT want to give up Tel Aviv. What I said was, that Wieder is being disingenous about HIS position. He does not affirm Israeli control in Tel Aviv, and in fact Satmar opposes that. Yet he implies (and YOU imply) otherwise.

You are trying to make Wieder and Satmar sound like Shalom Achshav.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen - I know Shalom Achshav. Some shalom achshavniks are my friends, And Satmar is no Shalom achshav.

[justayid]

"These people are FAR MORE dangerous and offensive than Satmar or any other slightly crazy Chassidishe sect because they have guns and bombs and they believe they are on a mission from God!!!"

Satmar and similar groups are busy stirring up antisemitism among gentiles from Williamsburg to Orange County by their approaches to zoning laws, building codes, and the rule of law generally. THAT sir, is dangerous to me.

The nuts on the West Bank A. Are an endangered breed - history is moving rapidly against them B. Are not particularly Shmaryas heroes either, but thats not the subject of this post. Satmar may attempt to look reasonable by focusing on the strawman that Obama is paying attention to the Yesha extremists, but thats not true.

again, if Satmar cares so much for peace with gentiles, there is so much they could do in their own communities that they are not doing.

[justayid]

Let us be quite clear. Satmar is the fastest growing group within Judaism at this time. They routinely have 10 plus children, the quadruple every (short) generation. They are the majority of the Jewish half of Williamsburg, Kiyat Joel is growing by leaps and bounds, they are a big presence in Boro Park, they have expanded to Far Rockaway, they are present in Monsey, etc, etc. Organized American Judaism cannot ignore them anymore. They are a force for backwardness, they are intolerant of other Jews, their attitudes alienate American gentiles, and, as we see above, they undermine the Jewish State (while trying to disguise their position as that of Shalom Achshavniks)

This problem is not going away on its own.

[nobody]

"I get to listen to avowedly anti-Zionist charedim "

Not all charedim are anti zionist even though many are. If they are advocating a hardline stance with regard to Arabs, this would be an indication that they are not anti zionist like their compatriots.

[nobody]

"nobody: Unfortunately, the argument that none of the rishonim took this seriously is not true, in fact, one of the issues the early religious Zionists had to deal with was that virtually all the Rishonim did take it seriously. "

I never argued or at least I did not mean that it is "not taken seriously." ALL of the Talmud is of course taken seriously. What I meant was that no one took it as a halachic statement. They all considered it what it is, Agadda. That is why the Rambam, Ramban, Rashbatz, and many others never take this into account when they state emphatically that it is a mitzvah to conquer the land of Israel in every generation (the Rambam saying one should move there if possible), along with all sorts of halachot that involve purchasing land in Israel and phasing out the gentile presence there, strengthening a Jewish one. One cannot ignore this body of halacha! Cite me rishonim who say that we are forbidden as a halachic principle to go live in Israel if it is possible to do so?

[MisterApikoros]

The Satmars, the Lubavichers, and Neturei Karta all believe the state of Israel is illegitimate because it's secular, and because it wasn't ushered in by the Messiah riding a white ass. It's the complete putz of the latter group who posed for pictures with Ahmadinejad.

My main problem with Satmar is that they're intolerant bastards, as are the others, and that they're a bunch of criminals who game the welfare system, the educational system, and villages, cities and towns in general.

Did you know that His Satanic, er, Satmaric Excellency, the "Rebbe" Moishe Teitelbaum, demanded $10,000 from developers for every apartment unit they wanted to build in Kiryas Joel? That money was to go to the va'ad, which of course would keep most if not all of it.

I hope to hell Teitelbaum and his relatives end up in prison (some have already) where they can be the bitches of some 300-pound Aryan Brotherhood biker dude.

[nobody]

"There are people who argue "not an inch" for security reasons. And there are people who argue "not an inch" because "God said so" and because they claim Israel is the beginning or is the sign of Moshiach and holding onto every inch is added to the short list of items for which a Jew must give up his life (ie is more important than human life)."

Why can't it be both? You phrase this in a very juvenile fashion but let's go with it for argument's sake. Every normal sane nation in the world is willing to die for their borders and for not giving away their country to enemies. Of what relevance is it that these people consider it a "religious principle" ? So the religious have their heads on straight and secular Israelis don't? So be it. But no man in world history would not fight to defend his country. It is only in the present day age of comforts and hedonism that this duty is eschewed by so many, and people have the warped mind to believe that a willingness to do is lamentable rather than laudable. Yes some things are more important than human life, or else there could never be a war of any kind and we would be left defenseless to our enemies. But the bigger picture is that in the longrun maintaining an Israeli presence protects more lives. And the fact that it may be a chillul Hashem to give away land is also a good motivation not to, but there really isn't much need for that. It's strictly common sense for which people do not believe in the myth of the Fakestinian state. Judaism does not really NEED to explain things that are common sense but often comes to reinforce it.

[nobody]

On reviewing my comment, indeed, I did NOT say it was not taken seriously by rishonim. I DID say it was not taken as a halachic statement by rishonim.

[Alternative Childcare]

Nobody: I agree with you. I only said that the Rishonim took it seriously, because we were talking about the validity of Divrei Yoel as a "reading". Rambam quotes it in iggeret teman, etc.
Obviously, as an Israeli citizen, I don't find it to be a halachic issue, and am obviously no Satmar supporter, although I have relatives who are Satmar through marriage (and they are very nice law abiding citizens, and of course, I'm sure you know, as you seem educated in Torah, that not all Satmar are fanatics, and they do have a quiet neighborhood in Benei Berak where they don't seem to bother anyone).

[Hotspur]

Seriously, there must be a way to make such traitors to the people pay. Boycotts, lawsuits, something!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Don't buy Satmar products. Why subsidize this meshegas?

[Ben]

Don't buy anything with BADATZ kashrut because this subsidizes Eidah Haredit (spitters and shabbat stone throwers in Jerusalem)

[MisterApikoros]

Is Adorama (a camera store in NYC which sells on-line) a Satmar enterprise, like B & H?

[[EDITED BY SITEOWNER]]

Can anyone confirm Weider wrote and signed the letter, and not the Neturei Karta Kapos? Its not uncommon for fake letters to circulate in the Chareidi communities.

Mr. Weider, if he actually wrote that letter, is a Reform […], IGNORAMOUS, LIAR, FRAUD, FALSIFIER OF TORAH and a modern day […].

He claims Jews are prohibited from conquering the Land of Israel? See Pischei Tshuvah Shulchan Aruch Evan HaEzer 75:6 which states that all the rishonim and achronim held there is today a mitzvah of yishuv haaretz. Also see the Ramban additional mitzvah #4 in Sefer HaMitzvos, where he clearly states it is a milchemes mitzvah to conquer Eretz Yisrael.

Regarding relinquishing land to genocidal Jihadists, see Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayim 329:6 which strictly prohibits ceding land to our enemies.

Also see the Sefer Eim HaBanim Semeicha, which is translated to English on the tsel dot org site. This sefer was written by a authentic European Gadol who accused the Weider type "rabbis" of pre-war Europe of being […] and having blood on their hands for telling Jews not to immigrate to Eretz Yisrael. Regrettably, this sefer is rarely learned in Chareidi circles because it explodes the myth of infallible Gadolim.

Weider's letter is much closer to Reform ideologies than to authentic Judaism.

[EDITED BY SITEOWNER]

[jpeditor]

"Obama isn't anti Israel, he's just anti hypocrite"

You're not "just a goy" - you're a stupid OBAMUNIST goy.

Øbortion has been anti-Jew since he studied at the madrass and memorized jihadi morning prayers;he has been anti-Jew when he spent 20 years cleaning "Rev" Wright's jockstrap.

You are allmost as bad as the stupid jinos and the kirya joelist who are looking for the check from Pres. Hussein (they already got what they needed from HIllary, the saudi's whore, when her "husband" pardoned some satmar gonif after they gave her their votes).

":Do we want an Israel which is respected by the international community, or simply loathed, mocked, deemed untrustworthy, stereotyped...?":

Oh you mean the intl community that sucks hind teat of iran, hezbullah and syria?

Go call rahm emanuel - that yehudon kapo needs more stupid goyim like you.

[izzy]

Please boycott all CRC and all satmar foods
they want to destroy Israel you destroy them.

[harvey]

this piece of drek thinks he can set foreign policy, while he can't even land a legit job or a college education.

[Manuel Ferrara]

The Satmar/David argument is dis

For example the Satmar/David say "Life is Judaism’s most precious commodity" but they would not let Hatzalah to save the life of non-Jew"

They are lying by saying that Israeli politician are against territorial compromise , in fact even Bayit Yehudi and Shas support some giving up of land.

People like David hates the state of Israel in any form of existence. I remember during the second intifada when a bus with children blew up in Israel , some Satmars. ,NK and probably David were jumping out of joy and sponsoring a kiddush

I have no doubt that in his previous life David was a kapo