FORMER CHIEF RABBI TO MALE SOLDIERS: Go To Jail Rather Than Hear Female Soldier Sing

Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu tells IDF soldiers to disobey orders rather than hear female IDF soldiers sing.

Opt for prison over hearing girls sing'
By JPOST.COM STAFF 

Former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has called on religious IDF soldiers to choose imprisonment over hearing a woman singing during military events and ceremonies, an Israeli paper revealed on Tuesday.

The influential national-religious rabbi said that he was asked by soldiers what they should do when their commanders order them to stay at an event in which a woman was singing. Orthodox Jewish law prohibits men from hearing a woman sing on modesty grounds.

"I told them - what should you do? The Talmud tells you… It is better you go to jail, disregard your commander and don't hear the voice of a woman singing," Eliyahu said in a recorded sermon broadcast Monday night and carried by the newspaper Ma'ariv.

The IDF's Chief of Staff's Office recently issued a prohibition on observant soldiers walking out of military assemblies to avoid hearing women singing. Chief education officer Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister said that incidents of religious soldiers walking out of ceremonies to avoid the religious transgression were a "worrisome phenomenon," as they were liable to weaken group cohesion.

Comments

[Asa]

I have heard it taught that women singing are as if exposing themselves to the men who hear them. I'm having trouble believing all males who attend operas and concerts feel this way. I haven't come across any. I'm more into instrumental/choral classical music myself... I could be way off, but this ruling seems way off. Maybe applicable to individuals, but...

[Yochanan Lavie]

What a retard. Yemanite Jews have a tradition of women singing religious songs for mixed audiences (diwan) for example. This is a chumra gone mad.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Pat Ben-Attar: (A woman sings):

Well you're the real tough rabbi with the long history
Of silencing female voices, like the one in me
That's oy vey, it's a chumra, we knew it
You make us puke, when you get down to it!

Chorus:
Hit me with your best pshat!
Why don't you hit me with your best pshat!
Hit me with your best pshat!
Fire away!

You come on with a chumra, you don't fight fair
But that's o.k., see if I care!
Knock me down, it's hevel tachat ruach
If they disobey orders, you've really screwed up.

chorus

Well you're the backward rabbi with misogyny
You try to silence women, like the "Iranis."
Before I put another fist in your bearded face
You better make sure you put me in my place

chorus 2x

[Yonah]

YL: I normally hate the word retard, but I won't lie, your first comment made me lol.

Rabbi David Bigman has an interesting discussion of Kol Isha here: http://www.jewishideas.org/rabbi-david-bigman/new-analysis-kol-bisha-erva

Incidentally, this has to be the worst proof text for voice-erva ever:

"Shmuel said: "The voice of a woman is erva, as it is said: (Song of Songs 2) ‘For your voice is sweet and your face is comely'"

I mean, it's obvious that the face isn't erva, so, how so from this verse the voice?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Why are the orthodox so obsessed about the possible 'danger' of getting a woody?

[Asa]

Yonah, is THAT text the basis for voice-erva?! Whoever I've questioned on the origins of the prohibition have answered, "the Rabbis". Wow.

[Dr. Dave]

I have heard it taught that women singing are as if exposing themselves to the men who hear them.

Women singing while exposing themselves (its ok its pg rated, but definitely not tznius - kind of like an Israeli Bananrama):

אשת חיל - והאר עינינו

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiTBHXh8I6A

[Asa]

"It's so obvious the face isn't erva"

Apparenly not so obvious to the haredim who blot out their faces from their papers and from billboards. Hell, even the sight of their names is erva.

[Yonah]

Asa,

They bring other proofs - that one is just the lamest. I think you should read the article - you'd get a lot out of it.

[nobody]

The soldiers shouldn't be forced if they feel it is against their religious beliefs. This statement comes in RESPONSE to the IDF's ruling that they would put soldiers in jail for walking out rather than being forced to sit through something against their religious beliefs. This happened because some soldiers felt insulted and walked out of a performance in which they were forced as a unit to sit and listen to women singing to entertain them. They felt it was against their religious obligations and a violation of principles, so they walked out. So now the state feels it can force them to break the Torah by threat of jailtime.. And Rabbi Eliyahu wisely tells them to continue to refuse. Civil disobedience at its finest...

[nobody]

You hypocrites who celebrate Martin Luther King Jr, Rosa Parks, and the first amendment religious freedom to no end should be proud of such action in defense of rights. Keep in mind, this is not some Rabbi trying to cause disorder in the army. There were already soldiers who took this initiative on their own, and the state responded by trying to blackmail them into cooperating against their religious beliefs. Rabbi Eliyahu's statements are really for those who are already convinced of his position regarding kol isha. But he is encouraging them to be courageous against the religious coercion of the state/IDF by maintaining their own beliefs against the new orders of the army.

[Sing Sing Sing]

They felt it was against their religious obligations and a violation of principles, so they walked out. So now the state feels it can force them to break the Torah by threat of jailtime..

They FEEL that it is against their religious obligations, but it is not. The state is not forcing them to break the Torah because listening to a woman sing is NOT against the Torah.

Perhaps they should have threatened them not with jail, but rather with a mandatory class that teaches the origin of the kol isha "ban" and how completely bogus it is.

[nachos]

I guess these fools would have run back to Egypt when Miriam started singing her songs of praise after crossing the Red Sea!!!

[Ben]

I do not believe that orthodox soldiers should be forced to listen to female perfomers. The only question is what next?

Is in your opinion if a group of secular soldiers would walk out when the army rabbi speaks? What is a mere sight of my commander offends my sensibilities, can I walk out?

What if other soldiers feel very offended because religious soldiers think that these female performers who remind them of their own sisters, are treated like prostitutes by the religious? Should they walk out on religious soldiers?

Army discipline should not be trampled by ideologies except for an extreme cases of impropriety. When religious establishment sets their sensitivity levels so extremely high, this will lead to disintegration of the army.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

I wonder what those idiots will do and what their clown will say when Dana International come to entertain them

[justayid]

Apologies to Gene Kelly:

I'm singing, in the chrain,
just singing in the chrain,
what a yomtovdik feeling,
It's pesach, again.

[MisterApikoros]

Well, it ain't over 'till the fat lady sings. If these jerks don't like her singing maybe she could sit on them.

I would sentence these ultra-Orthodox jerks to 7 days straight of listening to Celine Dion, followed by 7 straight days of listening to another white woman, Michael Jackson.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i would quit the army before listening to this fool speak.

[Hometown Postville]

ROFL!!!!! How do these morons reproduce if women are so taboo????

[Yochanan Lavie]

APC: I missed you, dude! Welcome back!

[Joseph]

The Source of the Prohibition
The Gemara (Berachot 24a) states, “The voice of a woman is Ervah, as the Pasuk [in Shir Hashirim 2:14] states ‘let me hear your voice because your voice is pleasant and appearance attractive.’” Rashi explains that the Pasuk in Shir Hashirim indicates that a woman’s voice is attractive to a man, and is thus prohibited to him. Rav Hai Gaon (cited in the Mordechai, Berachot 80) writes that this restriction applies to a man who is reading Kriat Shema, because a woman’s singing will distract him. The Rosh (Berachot 3:37) disagrees and writes that the Gemara refers to all situations and is not limited to Kriat Shema. The Shulchan Aruch rules that the Kol Isha restriction applies to both Kriat Shema (Orach Chaim 75:3) and other contexts (Even Haezer 21:2). The Rama (O.C. 75:3) and Bait Shmuel (21:4) clarify that this prohibition applies only to a woman’s singing voice and not to her speaking voice.

The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 20:1) rules in accordance with the view of the Rambam (Hilchot Issurei Biah 21:1) that a couple is biblically forbidden to have physical contact if they are forbidden to live with each other. The Acharonim (summarized in Teshuvot Yabia Omer 1:6) debate whether the Kol Isha prohibition is also a biblical level prohibition. Rav Ovadia Yosef (ibid.) rules in accordance with the opinions that it is only a rabbinical prohibition.

Both Rav Ovadia Yosef (ibid) and Rav Yehuda Henkin (Teshuvot Bnei Banim 3:127) reject the claim that this prohibition does not apply today since men nowadays are accustomed to hear a woman’s voice. These authorities explain that since the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch codify this prohibition, we do not enjoy the right to abolish it. The Gemara and its commentaries do not even hint at a possibility that this prohibition might not apply if men become habituated to hearing a woman’s voice. Thus, all recognized Poskim agree that the prohibition of Kol Isha applies today.

Zemirot
There is, however, considerable disagreement regarding the scope of the Kol Isha prohibition. For example, the question of its applicability to Zemirot has been discussed at some length in the twentieth century responsa literature. Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg (Teshuvot Seridei Eish 2:8) notes that traditionally women refrained from singing Zemirot when there were males who were not family members sitting at the Shabbat table. However, he records that the practice in Germany was for woman to sing Zemirot in the company of unrelated men. Rav Weinberg records that Rav Azriel Hildesheimer and Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch (two great German Rabbis of the nineteenth century) sanctioned this practice. Rav Weinberg reports that they based their ruling on the Talmudic rule (Megila 21b) that “Trei Kali Lo Mishtamai,” two voices cannot be heard simultaneously.

Rav Weinberg writes that he does not find this explanation satisfying (perhaps because the Gemara (Sotah 48a) writes that men and women singing together is a major impropriety). Rav Weinberg instead defends the German Jewish practice by citing the Sdei Chemed (Klalim, Maarechet Hakuf, 42) who quotes the Divrei Cheifetz who asserts that the Kol Isha prohibition does not apply to women singing Zemirot, singing songs to children, and lamentations for the dead. This authority explains that in these contexts men do not derive pleasure from the woman’s voice. In fact, the Pasuk (Shoftim 5:1) records that Devora the prophetess sang a song of praise to Hashem together with Barak the son of Avinoam. According to the simple reading of the text, Devora was married to Lapidot and not Barak. The Sdei Chemed writes that he believes that it is proper to be strict and not follow the approach of the Divrei Cheifetz, but he regards the lenient opinion as a viable approach.

Rav Weinberg writes that we should not pressure women who wish to follow the traditional practice to join Zemirot in a mixed group. Indeed, many Poskim oppose this practice of German Jewry (see Otzar Haposkim E.H. 21:1:20:3). However, some cite the Gemara (Megila 23a) that states that women are forbidden to receive an Aliyah to the Torah because of Kavod Hatzibbur as proof to the German practice. They argue that the fact that the Gemara does not mention Kol Isha as the reason to forbid women’s Aliyot proves that the Kol Isha restriction does not apply when a woman sings sacred texts. Others reply that the Gemara might be speaking of a woman reading the Torah to her immediate family members or may be speaking of a female child reading the Torah (see comments of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg, and Rav Yosef Shalom Eliashiv cited in Nishmat Avraham 5:76-77). These suggestions might also explain the Gemara (Berachot 57b and Rashi s.v. Kol) that states that hearing a woman’s voice is a soothing experience.

Accordingly, the question of whether the Kol Isha prohibition applies to Zemirot remains unresolved. Chareidi communities in Israel and North America generally follow the stringent view on this matter and Modern Orthodox communities in Israel and North America generally follow the tradition of German Jewry in this regard. It seems appropriate, though, not to expand this leniency and permit situations beyond that which the German Poskim specifically authorized – a group of men and women singing Zemirot together. Interestingly, I asked Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik in July 1985 whether he agrees with this ruling of Rav Weinberg. The Rav replied, “I agree with everything that he wrote, except for his permission to stun animals before Shechita” (see volume one of Teshuvot Seridei Eish). Rav Soloveitchik related his great appreciation of Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg. Rav Shalom Carmy later told me that Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Weinberg had been close friends during the years that Rav Soloveitchik studied in Berlin.
http://koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Parameters%20of%20Kol%20Isha.htm

[ah-pee-chorus]

YL: thanks, man. good to be back. been checkin in occassionally and enjoying your stuff as usual.

[Dave Marshall]

YL, great posts.
In the old days in the Middle East, even at Jewish weddings, there was often a bellydancer- obviously a woman- at the reception.
I bet the rabbi didn't just get up and leave.
So all this is very amusing, because it shows that people do change a lot.

[maven]

MonseyTzadik: I think halachically (and biologically) Dana International is still a man l'chol davar, I recall an interview on Israeli TV where he/she answered evasively about having been "chopped".

Dave: Having lived in Sepharadi communities in the US, the usual procedure with belly dancers was that the Rabbi would leave a bit earlier and then she would show up. Sort of a 'tradition'.

[Dorian]

"let me hear your voice because your voice is pleasant and appearance attractive.’”
.......
Rashi explains that the Pasuk in Shir Hashirim indicates that a woman’s voice is attractive to a man, and is thus prohibited to him.

....PLEASE READ IT AGAIN AND BETTER>>>

the VOICE is PLEASANT
the APPEARANCE is ATTRACTIVE.
Two different things here. The voice may also be pleasant...but she could me ugly as hell.....
One thing doesn't necessarily follow from the other.
A pleasant voice and an attractive appearance can be repulsive in a split second when the words spoken/sang are below any level...and vice versa..
She can be beautiful and speak/sing balony with a peeping voice..And he goes for it...
Please do read it again and instead of "she" put "he"...Just to humour you...

And why always the connection that when something is attractive..it should be prohibited? Are we creating and maintaining a couple of 'sissies' here?
Shouldn't Rashi not also have derived from the text that we should create a Jewish Burka...with fringes in every corner?

I mean..I have a wild fantasy..I can derive anything from nothing and create prohibitions that would not even allow you to breath at the end..
Not once was a woman mentioned in the above commend...
So THIS woman makes the following statement
to Joseph & Co..:" PLEASE LET ME SING YOU TO SLEEP .....!!

[WoolSilkCotton]

APC- welcome, welcome, welcome back!

If those soldiers were being entertained by Roseanne Barr, Yoko Ono and Rosie O'Donnell, I could understand them walking out. The army is against torture, isn't it?

[tanya]

From my understanding, men in ancient times were atually jealous of the beauty of the woman's voice. Not that it gave them a woody, but it gave them shpilkes of jealousy. Can you imagine, the men said, "don't sing", we don't want to hear your beautiful voice, it is too distracting, we want to sing, so you, women, don't sing.
Is it true?? Is it a man's world, prey tell??

[MisterApikoros]

This asshat has already done time in the slammer, so he at least knows what his bochurim might be in for.

His crime: He was a leader of Brit Hakanaim, an organization of zealots which torched vehicles traveling on Shabbot and burned down butcher shops which sold non-kosher meat. He did 10 months, around 1950.

My kind of guy, for sure.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Mr. A: I thought he was a black hat, not an asshat. Unless he has a black ass ;)

[Joseph]

1)The idea is not to get pleasure from a woman who you may not have relations with. To gaze at her, to watch her walk, looking at her, smelling her perfume or clothing and yes listening to her sing. The sages considered it part of her beauty. They do not distinguish between age, weight , height, singing ability or other definitions of beauty. They did not feel the same way about same gender attraction.

2) To understand Jewish law it is better to look at the what before the why. In GENERAL the way Jewish law develops the why flows from the what. Even a rabbinic decree the system is more interested in what are the limits of the decree rather than what are the underlying ideas.

3) That being said these are not arbitrary laws thrown together. There is a system to them. In the above linked article are the most lenient opinions you will find among the communities who live their life according to Jewish law.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

my suggestion to the dear soldiers who are curious to know what they should do and ask the rahboy is to do their very, very best to acquire a brain first! that way they can think, hey! that would be nice!
as to the raa boy, i suggest he retires into silence!

[Neo-Conservaguy]

ccordingly, the question of whether the Kol Isha prohibition applies to Zemirot remains unresolved. Chareidi communities in Israel and North America generally follow the stringent view on this matter and Modern Orthodox communities in Israel and North America generally follow the tradition of German Jewry in this regard. It seems appropriate, though, not to expand this leniency and permit situations beyond that which the German Poskim specifically authorized – a group of men and women singing Zemirot together.

Why does that seem "appropriate"? We do not live in a fixed time with fixed perceptions. Every generation of Poskim must rule according to their understanding of both the existing rulings and customs as well as any new factors; otherwise, we wouldn't need them and could be a Catholic Israel with any and all answers provided by a law code.

Rabbi Bigman of Yeshivat Ma`ale Gilboa has written a stunning piece on this subject - everyone should read it to understand how blown out of context this concern has been taken.

It is also clear that historically, there are large periods of time during which nothing appears to be written about kol isha, indicating that such concerns ebb and flow over time.

[ah-pee-chorus]

wsc: thanks much.. missed you all.

[Ben]

Does it mean that first clear prohibition of kol isha was done by Rashi in mideaval France?

[Joseph]

My dear Neo-Conservaguy, where you want to take this is where the "lonely (conservative) halachick man" would like to take it. The communities of halachick judaism known as orthodox are pushing the halachicik envelope with zemirot. You are not going to see a fundamental change in the approach to halachic change within the orthodox world in the near future for better or worse. If one is unhappy about the rulings of those rabbis and one wants to engage in halachic dispute the debate has to take place within the rules (or confines) of the rabbinic establishment's understanding of the halachick process. You can make an end run through the secular courts but that is different than saying he is halachickly wrong. In other words based on the code of Jewish law there is a problem with a man listening to a woman sing. Does it mean one must sit in jail rather than listen? I am sure that there you can find halachick dispute. there are competing values that can be brought into the discussian. The state, the army, honor of others (how about airplugs?:)). One has to recognise where the debate is taking place not where one wants it to be taking place

[nobody]

"So all this is very amusing, because it shows that people do change a lot. "

SO?? People don't have a right to change?

[nobody]

Once again the commenters here prove they are a bunch of pathetic selfabsorbed ingrates who are so insecure that all they can do is bash talmidei chachamim all day long without any sort of discrimination or any regard for anyone involved.

"And why always the connection that when something is attractive..it should be prohibited? Are we creating and maintaining a couple of 'sissies' here?"

Now for your lesson. These soldiers are religious ones who follow the halacha. They don't sit around and say "well why did Rashi have to say this, and why did Rambam have to say that." They are Torah observant Jews. So if the halacha is such and such, and they understand it to be that way, they will follow it THAT WAY. And they will not bend over backwards to find some other rabbi's opinion who says it is ok, if they themselves and/or their own rabbi understand that it isn't. If it is forbidden, they will avoid the situation to their ability, not sit around and whine to G-d about why can't I listen to women singing.

While they are defending their country they should not be FORCED to sit down and watch and listen to some popstar hussie prance around and sing songs if they don't want to and if it is a religious preference. And all you hypocrites who point the blame at the haredi Jews for not serving in the military, of course you also point the blame at the national religious who do serve, because oh wait, they are still religious afterall. Since they run to defend the country and are far more patriotic than leftwing sectors of the population, what can you blame them for? Certainly not the same excuses for your tirades against haredim. Oh right, for keeping Jewish law. Apparently only the secular Israeli soldier and backpacker is the perfect Jew/Israeli for you clowns.

"my suggestion to the dear soldiers who are curious to know what they should do and ask the rahboy is to do their very, very best to acquire a brain first! that way they can think, hey! that would be nice!
as to the raa boy, i suggest he retires into silence!"

They already have brains and already used them THEMSELVES to walk out during female performers, of their own accord, by their own free will. That was what sparked the controversy. Gabi Ashkenazi then decided he would impose his will on them all, restore "order" to his troops and demand that it be mandatory for all soldiers to sit through all musical performances of every gender and persuasion. The fact that you say such smut about a man and rabbi who is a thousand times what you could ever be shows what a frustrated little worm you really are.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

giving the matter more thought, it is becoming amply evident, that not only the face of the raa-bhoy is itself an erva, but so with the face of his moron son of tzfas.
not only that, them both, as well as the rebbe mamesh their whole atzmus umahus is an erva!
well the mamesh is now burried und no longer counts but anyvey his whole persona und hashqofeh is erva.

[Ben]

Nobody comments here: "Once again the commenters here prove they are a bunch of pathetic selfabsorbed ingrates ". This is a pathetic example of self incrimination. I suggest you take 5th.

[MisterApikoros]

Nobody:

Would you rather have these poor, mistreated warriors of the IDF subjected to the horror of female singing, or would you rather see them subject to combat?

Your choice.

[Hometown Postville]

The government has banned prayer from public school. There have even been cases of kids being suspended for reading the Bible at school. If you choose to make a public stink about that, you will make headline news. However, if you wish to continue prayer,you may do so privately and quietly without attracting attention. But as a public school employee, I can attest to the fact that the f--- word, n----- word, and "retard" are bantered about freely and little is done to stifle it. It is very offensive to me, but if I were to walk off the job because my administrative leaders choose not to enforce policies against it, I would be in trouble. In defense of administration though, sadly, they have to deal with parents who defend their children's right to say what they want. There are also parents who get hot when their kids are caught using cell phones, ipods, etc.. in school which are often used for cheating or just to tune out the teacher. (The parent screams at the principle for picking on their kid not at their kid's actions!) Real condusive to learning huh?- and they will carry that attitude into their future jobs because these things have been tolerated to the point of becoming second nature. Banning something personal and sacred like prayer and the mere mention of "God" is disgusting given the "rights" that have replaced it. Sorry for my tangent but I couldn't help drawing the comparison. The issue in the article should be a non-issue. The army should not be so strict as to require soldiers to attend what amounts to an extracurricular activity- if it IS some important ceremony, then for pete's sake just allow them to exit gracefully during the singing parts! They shouldn't have to be jailed or court-martialed!

[Dorian]

To Nobody:.."................................ ....,......................................... .......................................................... ...................................... ...... nááááh...talking to nobody would be silly right?
Wasn't it "Nobody" that fooled the Cycloop and as a result had him killed?.
Now..that is a myth ofcours..and Sóóóóme fokes still need 'myths'to give themselves a reason for living and feeling comfortable. They invent, explain and derive one thing from the other..
IN that respect religion is a self-serving, ever-evolving hypothesis designed to find peace of mind, i.e. by faith,and when fleetingly found,it is called bliss,blessedness,grace, salvation etc.. THIS defenition is in no way pejorative of religion. On the contrary, it is the highest attainment of the human mind...
BUT..by NOT acknowledging the religious hypothesis of so called 'gdoliem' (etc..) the ones who Do acknowledge it feel undermined in their peace-of-mind .
Question....WHY?????

IN the meantime...I'll sing my baby to sleep....

[justayid]

Ok, so R' Yosef Karo, writing in the the Beit Yosef SAYS: "And with regard to the halakha, it seems that we side with the Rambam, but it is in any event good to be cautious before the fact not to see hair and hear the voice of a woman singing during the recitation of Shema."[15]

If he sides with the Rambam (that the prohibition on Kol Isha applies generally, not just to kriat shma) why does he go on to say that its good to be cautious about hearing a woman singing DURING kriat shma? If one refrains from hearing kol isha generally, why the explicit reference to caution during kriat shma?

[justayid]

"The communities of halachick judaism known as orthodox are pushing the halachicik envelope with zemirot"

Oh cmon now.
On paper maybe. Not in the practice of the community.

Here is the quote from Rambam
"And it is forbidden for a man to ‘wink' using his hands or his feet, or to hint with his eyes at a woman forbidden to him, or to joke with her or to act light-headedly, and even to smell the perfume she is wearing or to look at her beauty is forbidden, and willful violators are to be beaten as upstarts. And he who looks at even the little finger of a woman to take pleasure in it is like one who looks at her genitalia, and even to hear a voice of an erva or to see her hair is forbidden"

I would bet money that the percentage of young modern orthodox males who actually observe the above (refraining from taking pleasure in looking at even the little finger of a woman) is smaller than the number of conservative jews who are shomer shabbos, say or of reform Jews who keep a limited form of kashrut.

[MisterApikoros]

You're a US Marine. You stand at attention during the singing of "The Star Spangled Banner." Except that our National Anthem is sung by Mariah Carey, one of the few people with the vocal range sufficient to carry it off.

You are also an ultra-Orthodox Jew, so you break ranks and walk away because, evil of all evils, a woman (and a very curvaceous one to boot) is singing it, and using gestures, for Hashem's sake. You get locked up in the brig, and are subsequently assigned the worst possibly duties, and some military duties are pretty bad.

You deserve what you brought upon yourself, Private (formerly Lance Corporal) Steinberg. Insubordination, for starters.

[nobody]

"Nobody:

Would you rather have these poor, mistreated warriors of the IDF subjected to the horror of female singing, or would you rather see them subject to combat?

Your choice.

Posted by: MisterApikoros | July 08, 2009 at 07:04 AM "

These warriors as you correctly call them have entered the army to fight in combat, not to sit and watch women prance around and sing to them and be forced to stay there and watch. That's a fact! They are not wimps who only went because they have no choice. You clearly do not understand the national camp. They are there to fight.

[nobody]

"BUT..by NOT acknowledging the religious hypothesis of so called 'gdoliem' (etc..) the ones who Do acknowledge it feel undermined in their peace-of-mind ."

This has nothing to do with anything. You are showing your insecurity here. It's called projection. Either way, what I take issue with on this site is the relentless attacking of individuals rather than debating on the issues. You don't like his point of view fine, but who the hell are any of you to insult this man and throw names around? The same thing happens with Rav Yosef and Rav Eliyashiv on this site. It's disgusting. Because they (or at least for sure Rabbi Eliyashiv is) are customarily machmir in rulings, you have a right to throw childish insults at them because you don't like it? Find a different rabbi...

[nobody]

And grow up.

[MisterApikoros]

I guess you'd rather see good men (and women) die in battle than listen to music.

I've done my bit. I'd rather listen to music, and confine my battling to schmucks such as yourself.

[Asa]

Nobody, the question here is whether the halacha is applicable today. Also, it appears from what I've been guided to read, that the original ruling was meant for women singing during the reciting of the Shema, and women singing with the intent of provoking sexual misconduct, etc. What I can't understand is this: why is Judaism static all of a sudden? It wasn't static for Rambam and Ramban, it wasn't static for the Talmudists, nor for Soloveitchik or Feinstein. Why is it an abonimation to revisit the texts? Why is it an abomination not to believe the sages were infallible? Rambam himself subjects his works to any future sage who may find in his works a questionable area.

My point is, while I think it's completely wrong to dilute the Torah to fit one's own ends, it is also wrong to wait around for Moshiach to begin discovering the rest of the dimensions of Torah, and meanwhile not merely to stay in one place, but actually to go backwards, and to make Judaism appear more and more distasteful.

Please correct me if I err.