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Why I Will Walk On The Temple Mount This Tisha B'Av
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July 30, 2009

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Shlomo

Shmarya could you please elucidate Who wote this letter? I can't find his name

Shmarya

A person who wants to remain anonymous.

Rob

He was probably afraid that if some haredi "rabbi" disagreed with him, the "rabbi" would take out a gun, hold it to his head and steal one of his kidneys - that is after all how it works in that world by all accounts....

R

I have heard this before, from the same source. I personally do not fast on tisha b-av because of what happened thousands of years ago. We have enough pain and grief today that warrants fasting.
From illnesses that have no cure (including the illness that is charedim) to horrific deaths due to war or starvation or abuse.
There is plenty to mourn on tisha b'av and it has little to do with a building being destroyed. A building is just bricks and mortar, we should be mourning for people.

Dr. Dave

We are like children who are sorry and cry because we were caught and punished, whereas we should be apologizing and distraught for commiting the bad act instead.

Yochanan Lavie

I would like to see a rebuilt temple as the world's central synagogue. I am tired of talking to a wall- we need a focal point. I don't see the need for renewed sacrifices, however- except maybe korban pesach and the grain offerings.

David Willig

This is such common knowledge that I am surprised that the aauthor felt the need to quote at such great length. But he does not say that this idea does not surface in his halachic works, only in his philosophic works. First of all, it does not matter what rationale we have for fulfilling the commandments, only that we do so. Second, we mourn the falling of the Temple as the symbol of the total loss of all that we were, an Independent nation, striving, each of us in our own way, to maintain a relationship with God. My mother, may she live and be well, said that the destruction of the Temple was a gift that enabled Judaism to survive and evolve, to grow towards modernity. Even with this thought, the gift came throgh tremendous and continuing pain, and to a certain degree, the evolution and growth have stopped. There is no mechanism for restarting it. Perhaps this stop is but temporary, a pause in the eyes of a GOD who thinks in terms of millenia, but for me, the pain continues, and on Tisha B'av, it is worth fasting and mourning to recognize that pain.

Rob

"This is such common knowledge that I am surprised that the aauthor felt the need to quote at such great length"

If this is such common knowledge, then why is it taught that we should yearn for the day that we bring the sacrifices in the temple again? Mind you, with false messianism and idol worship so prevalent in our generation, perhaps there would be a need for some to bring sacrifices again. There certainly also seems to be a blood lust that needs to be satisfied amongst the haredim. However, for the rest of us, 3500 years should have been long enough to exorcise the will to serve idols and bring sacrifices in the temple.

Avis Johnson

The authors asks if he/she possibly missed the mark or made an erroneous translation.My understanding is that this is on the money. My father OBM spent alot of time in London reading some the Rambans works that were written in the RAMBANS HAND. My dear father read both arabic and aramic. He also possesed some Pines editions which are annotated in hebrew in his hand. I'm inspired to find them and see what he (my Father) comments Thank you for sharin and SR thank you for posting

Dorian


......
For most humans it's not easy suddenly to do the opposite of what he is accostumed to.
So to with the offering of animals to God.
In the time of the Exodus religious practice was unthinkable without those offerings.
According to Maimonides God didn't want to bring a sudden change in the worship invented by humans (!). It would've been just as shocking to say that prayer wasn't necessary since it's more important to recognize God in ourselves (...)
That's why God tolerated the offerings etc.. although He didn't crave for it in the least.
Please read Yeremiah 7:22 on this and Tehiliem 50:7 (...)
Also, cultic worship of God is either in offerings (limited to time and place..and people) and prayer, which can be done anywhere at anytime.

Maimonides knews very well that he had to be extremely careful to bring his thoughts in the open. In fact he was more extreme in this than assumed. His admiration for Aristoteles was not as is often thought only an attempt to harmonize Torah and philosophy since many people in his days took a big interest in that and were feared to be lost to Judaism. But he also used Aristoteles because he wholeheartedly agreed with him on certain principals. He wanted to make/force the people to THINK and RE-THINK...and to let them realize the consequences of their postulated theories on God, religion etc..
BUT he also realized people's mind is very limited and therefore kept quiet on many things in order to be able to continue his works.
After him, Uriël DaCosta and Baruch Espinoza among many others, (not comparing one to the other here!) cared much less . They opened their mouth no matter what...
And all of them made the people think...than , and especially in the last 2 centuries.

The (ultra) orthodox world takes the Torah as the written unchangable word. Not realizing that it was experienced over a period of thousand years and written down much later. That's why it is/should be a book of LIFE and NOT of dogma's...
It should be RE-THOUGHT, which in a way is very flattering for us humans because it implies that we have done some thinking already.
There's a recommendable book on this from Professor Salo Baron: Monumental Social and Religious History of the Jews. Specially the fifth chapter of his first volume: “Rethinking Fundamentals”...

Re-thinking whether we should fast (...) or not on Tisha Be'Aw.
Maybe the place of a Temple was not ment to be and would stop us from exploring our minds.
We would've remained an offering and praying people under the influence of priests.
Should we still say the mussaf prayers that came instead of the offering-service? Or keep them as a reminder of what once was..but was ment to be temporary only?
IN countries like Indië and Egypt the priests had big influence on daily life, socially and mentally.
Greece never knew a priesthood that was of such a social influence. That's why they never limited the free development of THINKING and philosophying in general.
To THINK one needs a brain..to RE-THINK one needs guts and an open mind.
It's those last two the (ultra) orthodox world lacks because they haven't been taught and it has been suppressed over centruries by Rabbi's, Gdoiles etc..
What we need is the Philosophy of Judaism, meaning the thinking and re-thinking of the fundamentals of Judaism.
And we need it fast!

Levi G

the rambam should not be taken simply without rethinking either.
i believe the rambam is giving us "another" reaseon in the negetive to the meaning of the sacrifices, but the truth of hashem's word in the torah is forever meaning that the sacrifices has a go-dly essence by itself in the positive.

Dorian

Levi G.

Please enlighten me on "the other reason" in the negative to the meaning of sacrifices (..?) Ramban would give/gave..

Jeremia cried out: (Jer 7:22) .."Thus said HaShem (..) Add your burnt-offerings to your peace-offerings and eat (their) meat! For I did NOT speak with your forefathers NOR did I command them on the day I took them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-or peace-offerings.
Rather it was only this thing that I commanded them saying: Hearken to My voice that I will be your God and you will be My people..(.....)
Maimonides remarked on this that he put this quote in front of many scholars but no one was able to bring it into harmony with the many offerings and sacrifices mentioned in the Torah.
BUt it gets clear f.e. in Tehiliem (Psalms) 50:7) that God NEVER wished for it; only tolerated it...

The Torah corrects itself on many occasions.. Because it didn't come into being in one week (as I explained in my previous mail..). It's a book of LIFE and life changes constantly, creates new situations and demands new answers on new questions...

An example: Dwariem 23: "An Ammonite or Moabite shall NOT enter the congregation of HaShem (...) ..to eternity.."..
That seems in complete contradiction in what is written later on the strangers that live among you that have the same rights as you etc...and should be welcomed..
Why? It seems a contradiction here. BUt after the destruction of the Northern empire in 722 BCE the Rabbi's unequivocally determined that Sanherib (the Assyrian King) mixed up all the people of the areas over which he ruled. There were no recognizable Moabites, Edomites etc.. anymore. Just heathen-mixed-people..resulting in the fact that Ruth (the "Moabite") was welcomed into Klal Israel, as a member of the 'cursed people'..

And today we have new questions that demand new answers. But a big part of Judaism is stuck in a static form of religion that is in my opinion very very far from what was ment to be Judaism.

Shlomo

Do you know that this Rambam has been explained (in Chabad circles atleast) that Rambam only wrote Moreh Nevuchim to satisfy or mollify someone that had problems with his faith but that he did not actually mean or believe what he said !!
In other words even Rambam would believe that sacrifices will return
I was astounded (and troubled) that chareidim could twist his actual written words so

Asa

Shlomo, you're surprised?

R, David Willig, Dorian, very fine posts. Thanks.

One question (probably a stupid one): what about the sacrifices brought by Cain and Abel?

Clue

Of course, you choose to disparage one of the greatest scholars and Rabbi of this or any generation. Nobody is excluded from reading Rav Moshe's responsa. They are all published and available
for sale.

Rav Moshe had every right to control his own intellectual property, as does every author. It is sad that you are unwilling to take the time to gain the skills to read them.

Asa

Clue, it's not whether or not an author has the right to control his own intellectual property, but whether it was a wise decision to limit his readership. If Rabbi Feinstein's purpose was to provoke those who desired to read his works to acquire the skills necessary to read them, was it effective? Might it not have been more effective to persuade them to learn Hebrew by other means? He's a rabbi of renown. Maybe he could've influenced many, many non-Hewbrew-speaking Jews to learn the language by allowing his works to be published in a diverse range of languages than he did by restricting publications to Hebrew. It's a fair criticism as I see it.

Levi G

Dorian
maybe i was misunderstood but i meant to say that the rambam is giving us another reason to why hasem gave us the laws of sacrifices, mainly in regards to the hardships of that time
but the other reason is, simply the reason of it being the words of g-od that is eternal and must be of a pure positive cause/reason.

Levi G

Dorian

on the devarim contradiction i think you are a litle bit confused overthere
and rut becoming a part of israel had nothing to do with mixing up the nations

Asa

Levi, Rambam understands that what's in the Torah are G-d's words; however, interpretations and debates as to the meaning and intention of those words have gone on for centuries and continue to go on (except by those who treat the Torah as if it has died and has no more to impart). Rambam arrived at his position on sacrifices after a most scrupulous study of the sources. If G-d's words are eternal then they are eternally meaningful, and our interest in the TRUE intentions of those words are vital, especially now when charedim are striving in every way to kill thought.

Dorian

Levi G.
....
If that would be God's only statement about sacrifices .. However he spoke different on these in other sections (as mentioned in my previous mails..).

As most religious people (and not only Jews) it's presumed wrong to ask for the WHY? and FOR WHAT? because it could give the impression that men is somehow allowed to know something about a subjec of which ONLY God can have the right knowledge.
Maimonides proofed them wrong; that éven if men misses the point of God's reason..men DÓ have the right to think, debate and ponder about it.
Torah shows that the béing of men who live by His norms changes . (.."a man can't step into the same river twice...right?).
So there is a necessity to think, debate and ponder.

When we now make a step towards sacrifices yes or no..
IN my opinion God adjusts Himself to men because for men it's very hard to seperate from long-lived habits. GÓD could have done so by force Himself ..but consiously he doesn't do so. The reason might be to get us adjusted at our own pace..
That's also why MOshe didn't run down the hill and said: "Cut out the sacrifices dudes!" They might have melted him into a golden calf on the spot (!?).
BUT HIS (God's) later statements (and He repeats this many times thrue the prophets) He clearly states that He doesn't take any pleasure in sacrifices and offerings.
Maimonides, having to be very careful with making to much of a statement, urged the people to THINK about this. Realizing that people's thinking is limited and often limits itself out of fear to get stigmatized as a sinner (etc...). So we get stuck into something that still lives on today in (mostly) the orthodox world.
There are those who speak out on certain subjects but not without consequences. F.e
Rabbi Slifkin (..); he got labeled a heretic by them...

.." Ruth becoming a part of Israel had nothing to do with mixing up the nations.."

I was speaking here about the principal of 'welcoming the stranger into your home'
: "An Ammonite or Moabite shall NOT enter the congregation of HaShem (...) ..to eternity.."..
It's a fact that all these people got mixed up and ultimately became a people of, let's say heathens..
So the former statement wouldn't make sence anymore..
That's why eventhough Ruth was concidered a Moabite thén she ultimately WAS welcomes into Clal Israel.
The 'girl'even got her own section in the Torah!
And not just that..she became the ancestor of King David and even more.. from the Mashiach Himself. Isn't that to show unequivocally the possibility of total equality of the stranger?

John

Tisha B'Av is just about as far as the Rabbinate will allow Temple Judaism to return to Judaic life.
A third temple will never be allowed but they sure will play with Jews' wishfulness!

Levi G

Dorian

I agree with you that g-od said many times he doesnt like the sacrifices being done without the teshuva part in the heart (see rashi psalms 50, 51,) and so on.
but still the reason for the sacrifices has a meaning by itself like any other commandment like succah, ד מינים ,etc. be it understood entirely or not.
you can try to understand and think and you should rethink and keep your mind open but you can only go with what you have and thats the torah, mishna, and talmud.
thats our mesorah (heritage).

just look to the time of the mishna and talmud where sacrifices were not that popular anymore and still the latter tanaim, amaraim, speak with so much yearning to sacrifice the Kurban Tamid the Chatat, the Asham, the Todah.

i will not go in to kabalistic reasons which i totally dont understand, but it seems fair to imagine that a sacrifice whould remind a person of his bodily mortality seeing a animal with flesh and blood given to the creator, when a time that you're sinn's might have put you on that same altar, and showing that the world belongs to the creator animal species, vegetation(mincha), the water,and the fruits.
doing makes you talk and talk makes you think, and thaught is the most important in all of hashems laws (ibn ezra)
let me just state to you what rashi says onריח נחוח" נחת רוח לפני שצויתי ונעשה רצוני''

Dorian

Levi G:
......
....
There is a distincion between divine law and ceremonial law. The law of God commands only the
knowledge and love of God and the actions required for attaining that condition. Such love must arise , not from fear of possible penalties or hope for any rewards, but solely for the goodness of it's object. The divine law does NOT demand any particular rites or ceremonies such as sacrifices etc..(...). They were directed only at the Hebrews so that they might govern themselves in an autonomous state.
Moshe, by his divine power and authority, introduced a state religion..to make people do their duty from devotion rather then fear, Furthermore, he bound them by concideration of benefits received , while promising many more benefits from God in the future... This then was the object of ceremonial observance, that men should never act of their own volition but always at another's behest , and that in their actions and inward thoughts they should at all times acknowledge that they were NOT their own masters but completely subordinate to another.
A similar practical funcion is served by stories of miracles. Scriture speaks in a language adapted to effect the imagination of ordinary people and compel their obedience. Rather then appealing to the natural and real causes of all events, it's authors sometimes narrate thing in a way calculated to move people – particularly uneducated people – to devotion.
Now, doesn't that sound familiar to what is happening still today?
How many people are able to see the 'movie of life' without the 'background' music?

A Psalmist addresses God: "Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not desire; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required; I delight to do Thy will, 0 my God; yea, Thy law is within my heart." Here the Psalmist reckons as the law of God only that which is inscribed in his heart, and excludes ceremonies therefrom, for the latter are good and inscribed on the heart only from the fact of their institution, and not because of their intrinsic value. We may also learn from the Bible that ceremonies are no aid to blessedness, but only have reference to the temporal prosperity of the kingdom; for the rewards promised for their observance are merely temporal advantages and delights, blessedness being reserved for the universal Divine law.

As to the fact that the patriarchs offered sacrifices, I think they did so for the purpose of stimulating their piety, for their minds had been accustomed from childhood to the idea of sacrifice, which we know had been universal from the time of Enoch; and thus they found in sacrifice their most powerful incentive. The patriarchs, then, did not sacrifice to God at the bidding of a Divine right, or as taught by the basis of the Divine law, but simply in accordance with the custom of the time; and, if in so doing they followed any ordinance, it was simply the ordinance of the country they were living in, by which they were bound.
The Jews when they first came out of Egypt were not bound by any national laws, and were therefore free to ratify any laws they liked, or to make new ones, and were at liberty to set up a government and occupy a territory wherever they chose. However, they were entirely unfit to frame a wise code of laws and to keep the sovereign power vested in the community; they were all uncultivated and sunk in a wretched slavery, therefore the sovereignty was bound to remain vested in the hands of one man who would rule the rest and keep them under constraint, make laws and interpret them. This sovereignty was easily retained by Moses, because he surpassed the rest in virtue and persuaded the people of the fact, proving it by many testimonies (see Exod.14 last verse, and chap. xix:9).
He then, by the Divine virtue he possessed, made laws and ordained them for the people, taking the greatest care that they should be obeyed willingly and not through fear, being specially induced to adopt this course by the obstinate nature of the Jews, who would not have submitted to be ruled solely by constraint; and also by the imminence of war, for it is always better to inspire soldiers with a thirst for glory than to terrify them with threats; each man will then strive to distinguish himself by valour and courage, instead of merely trying to escape punishment.
Moses, therefore, by his virtue of the Divine command, introduced a religion, so that the people might do their duty from devotion rather than fear. Further, he bound them over by benefits, and prophesied many advantages in the future; nor were his laws very severe, as anyone may see for himself, especially if he remarks the number of circumstances necessary in order to procure the conviction of an accused person.
Lastly, in order that the people which could not govern itself should be entirely dependent on its ruler, he left nothing to the free choice of individuals (who until than had been slaves); the people could do nothing but remember the law, and follow the ordinances laid down at the good pleasure of their ruler; they were not allowed to plough, to sow, to reap, nor even to eat; to clothe themselves, to shave, to rejoice, or in fact to do anything whatever as they liked, but were bound to follow the directions given in the law; and not only this, but they were obliged to have marks on their door-posts, on their hands, and between their eyes to admonish them to perpetual obedience.
This, then, was the object of the ceremonial law, that men should do nothing of their own free will, but should always act under external authority, and should continually confess by their actions and thoughts that they were not their own masters, but were entirely under the control of others.

Levi G

A dictatorship given over by moses!??
i dont think whould make a lot of sense to a suppressed people finally being redeemed, and giving it over too for many generation's all to be governed by the ruler's "pleasures"
what a complete idiotic generation\generations??.
i mean come on lets talk reality.
they saw many punishments and blessings out of the ordinary and believed in it so forcefully that a entire nation transformed in believing and excepting laws as strict as they may seem, but for the holy knowledge they abtained at that period and thus were able to give over to many other generations.
in that light the practice of sacrifices has an antire different meaning.

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