FORMER SEFARDIC CHIEF RABBI: Don't "Kowtow" To Women

Listening to a woman deliver a speech, if she did so while using hand gestures, is also forbidden: "It's very serious. One should watch out for these things."

Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu is widely considered to be the leading halakhic authority for National Religious Jews and the movement's rabbinic head,  playing a similar role to what Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv plays for non-hasidic haredim:

Rabbi Eliyahu warns of rabbis who 'kowtow to women'
Former chief rabbi slams liberal stream in religious Zionism, spreading violation of chastity codes
Kobi Nahshoni • Ynet

Former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu warned this week of the rising prominence of the liberal stream in religious Zionism and slammed rabbis who "kowtow to women."

During a Torah lesson he delivered on Monday, the prominent national religious leader spoke in length about the importance of observing chastity codes. He advised soldiers to cover their ears during military ceremonies that include women singing. "It's better to go to jail than to obey the commander and hear a woman sing or play." He stated.

Eliyahu stressed that listening to a woman deliver a speech, if she did so while using hand gestures, was also forbidden: "It's very serious. One should watch out for these things."

Men and women sitting together at weddings was also banned, according to the rabbi, let alone dancing together. "Today at weddings everything is allowed – to dance, to look… a man dances with a woman he doesn't know… men swap women. This is a very serious thing!"

"Rabbis, repent!" urged Eliyahu. "Admit: Say, 'we were wrong. We won't allow mixed dancing, mixed weddings, mixed sitting'." He said that more liberal poskim (rabbis that issue halachic rulings) were favored by women, "Because a woman wants to be looked at. But men don't like them, because men know this is wrong."

'Soldiers should disobey orders'
The former chief rabbi further stated that a man must never send his regards to another man's wife. "A man can say to another man, 'My wife sends her regards to your wife' but not, 'Tell your wife I said hi.' This is the road of chastity, which is the most important thing for the Jewish people."

Eliyahu's son, Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, also referred to the issue of women performing in military events. He commented on a recent statement by the chief education officer, who said religious soldiers must stay put during such ceremonies, despite the halachic problem.

"This order is clearly illegal," said Eliyahu. "A person cannot be forced to go against the Torah. Today it's singing, tomorrow it's singing plus half naked women… a breach in such a question is like fire – you don't know where it's going to end."

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Comments

[Phiili]

These old fools are crazy... they have
more in common with the religious leaders
in Iran than the Jewish people.
God help us all and keep these old fools
away from us.

[Yonah]

listening to a woman deliver a speech, if she did so while using hand gestures, was also forbidden

So it's only permissable to listen to non-Jewish women?

[critical_minyan]

I am a convert, and I am strictly observant except, on occasion, I like to go to hear speeches where women talk with excessive hand gestures.
How long do I have before my conversion is revoked?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maybe excessive hand gestures by women leads to excessive hand gestures by men...

[MisterApikoros]

I have a hand gesture for the ex-con Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu. It only uses part of the hand, though.

[Itchiemayer]

MA - I'll assume you mean the peace sign...

[Yochanan Lavie]

Mordy and the Hand Jive (apologies to Johnny Otis)

I know a rabbi named Whacked Out Mordy
He's got an oppressed chick named Sufferin' Suri
He can rant and rave and harangue the Jews
And ban that crazy hand jive too

Tatteh told Mordy, you'll ruin my home
Mordy said that hand jive have got to go
Mordy said, Tatteh, don't put me down
We're bannin' the hand jive all over town

Hand jive, hand jive, hand jive, stop doin' that assur hand jive

Mama, Mama look at Ovadia Joe
He's bannin' that hand jive of sister Flo
Bubbie gave baby sister a shekel
Said, do that hand jive and you'll be heckled

Well, the doctor and the lawyer and rabbi chief
They all banned that crazy beat
Whacked Out Mordy gave 'em all a treat
When he did that hand jive with his feet / Hand jive...
[It's okay with a shinui]

Mordy and Suri got married last fall
They had a little Mordy Junior, and a-that ain't all
You know, the baby got spanked in his crib, you see
For that hand jive on his peepee / Hand jive...

[A. Nuran]

How long before Israeli girls get their clitorises cut off, dress in burqas and get poison gassed for going to school?

[Althelion]

It is a real shonda when Rabbinic leaders turn Judaism into a mental illness. Such a great fear of women!?! I can only imagine how dysfunctional their relationships are with mothers, spouses, sisters, etc.

[Althelion]

Yochanan:

Outstanding parody!

Doin' that meshugana hand jive!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Althelion.

[Clear]

– you don't know where it's going to end." - M. Eliyahu

The same could be said for the list of chumrot these guys keep adding to.

[Ben]

Rabbi Mordehai Eliyahu is a very soft posek. He only prohibits men listening to women who uses hand gestures. More machmir ones prohibit listening to women under any circumstances.

Thanks Rabbi, many women will love you for your favorable ruling.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Not listening to a woman may result in you sleeping on the couch.

[MisterApikoros]

AL, your genius at song parody amazes me.

You're an inspiration for me to finally finish my parody of "Puff the Magic Dragon:"

Slick, the magic Willie
Did more than pee
He frolicked 'neath the satin sheets
In the land of Hillary

Little Jewish Princess
Loved that mighty Slick
She got down on her chubby knees
And snuffed his candle wick

[Yochanan Lavie]

Mr.A; Good job!

[Dave Marshall]

Mr. A, very gross but hilarious !

[Asa]

"Mr. A, very gross but hilarious!"

I second that.

[Dave Marshall]

The comments by Rav Eliyahu are so obscurantist, it makes one ashamed of being a rabbinical Jew. This is a good opportunity for the Karaites to do kiruv !
Ha ha, onomatopaiea :).

[Yoel]

imo: what he said doesn't sound so strange. The issue in Iran has to do with coercion and use of a governmental apparatus to get people to conform... and to conform for the purposes of political power consolidation (as opposed to some sincere concern about the proper conduct of a wholesome society). In other words, police actually arrest women for improper conduct for the purpose of the police becoming more powerful. Religion is just the excuse because there are so many religious Iranians who are sympathetic, and therefore vulnerable to being manipulated. Getting rid of religion would simply mean the government would have to alter their tactics, and use some other sawhorse as the instrument of manipulation. If a Rabbi gives advice to fathers and mothers, so they can then give advice to their sons and daughters, this is fine. And a far cry from a police state. One must focus on preventing the police state by building a good government, and not getting distracted on bashing some religious activity. Limits on government meddling need to be in place, and protection of personal liberties must be inculcated. How this is down must be worked out in detail, over time, by each society. It goes way beyond some magic slogans like 'separation of government and religion'. It took centuries of effort in the US to work out a system for this, but one cannot transplant that to other cultures and expect it to work. Each culture must do that for themselves in the way that works for them.

[ah-pee-chorus]

yoel: its quite obvious that if and when the hareidim become a majority israel will make iran look an oasis of freedom.

[Asa]

I agree. Yoel, if the haredim had their way, women should walk about in straight jackets so as not to move a finger lest a "gentleman" notice and lose control, or women should not see the light of day at all, forget how to use their vocal cords, and wear a sign on their backs: "I'm sorry for God having made me according to His will".

It's not a tremendous leap from the rendering of women entirely invisible to the police-state abominable oppressions of Iran. Isreal is meant to be God's nation. You think any woman with even half a right mind would feel blessed to be a citizen of such a place where even that half of a right mind would be confiscated? You think intelligent women would feel blessed to be a citizen of such an Israel?

[Alternative Childcare]

MrA writes: "I have a hand gesture for the ex-con Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu. It only uses part of the hand, though."

We can assume, coming from you, that its the "Deutscher Gruß" (aka Seig Heil) gesture you'd make?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Listening to a woman deliver a speech, if she did so while using hand gestures, is also forbidden:

What if it's a deaf woman talking in sign language?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

kowtow to women == listening to them and taking their feelings into consideration.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

It is a real shonda when Rabbinic leaders turn Judaism into a mental illness

It's well on the path to OCD.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

We can assume, coming from you, that its the "Deutscher Gruß" (aka Seig Heil) gesture you'd make?

Oh, I get it. Holocaust humor. You are so clever.

Yutz.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Revering 'rabbinic leaders' is the first symptom of mental illness.

[ah-pee-chorus]

What if it's a deaf woman talking in sign language?

Posted by: Nigritude Ultramarine | July 08, 2009 at 12:04 PM

that would be kol isha

[nobody]

Update on singing issue:

Rabbi: IDF Directive Crowds Teachers into Corner

www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132294

[MisterApikoros]

Giving the Hitler salute requires all five fingers. As if you didn't know.

If I ever am fortunate enough to salute you, dickwad, I'll be using all 10.

BTW, I don't think many Germans (or even Austrians) are using your "Deutscher Gruss" these days. Only in your perverted mind.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Q: What would Rubashkin say about the matter?
A: "Kowtow, brown cow."

Thank you. I'll be here all week.

[Asa]

Mr. A, this joker's just going to keep coming at you. He's a one-note wonder. He has nothing more to contribute. Ignore.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mr. A, you're a good guy. I appreciate your wealth of historical knowledge, especially about WWII.
I agree with Asa, don't let yourself be goaded.

[Clear]

"Don't "Kowtow" To Women"

How about, "Don't 'kowtow' to the Rabbis."?

[Dr. Dave]

If he met my wife he'd kowtow or she'd put her foot up his butt.

[shmuel]

Does he cite any sources for the hand gestures ban, or is this another instance of charedim applying that famous "5th section" of the four volumed Shulchan Aruch?

[WoolSilkCotton]

How would they deal with Helen Keller?

[MisterApikoros]

WSC:

Sometimes I just can't resist giving it back.

[Ben]

Yoel, you say "The issue in Iran has to do with coercion and use of a governmental apparatus to get people to conform" and you follow by saying that Haredim don't use state power... This is true only because Haredim don't have state power yet. All evidence is pointing us to think that if haredim had that power they would certainly use it. Even now, without backing of the state the Haredim use intimidation to push everyone to conform to their mores. Intimidation comes in form of Chastity Squads, Violent Demonstrations, Burning of garbage bins, Stoning Cars on Shabbat, Spitting on "impropertly" dressed women, using of the knesset to force public transoprtation and ElAl stop on Shabbat... The list is endless really

[Russian PhD]

Mordechai Eliyahu was convicted for throwing the bomb into the Parliament of his country and seriously wounding the prime minister and his deputy. Instead of to rot him in solitary confinement until the last day of his life, like it done in every normal country with terrorists, he was not only released after childish sentence of several months, but also become with a time senior governmental official, without to regret and to change anything in his views! Israel paid the price of such treatment of Jewish terrorists: later frum bustards killed another prime minister.

PM: after his recent strokes and brain surgeries from his brain remained small piece of shit, so, no need to take him now seriously.

[Hometown Postville]

So how do these rabbis come to these conclusions about women? Do they sit around listening to songs, videos, watch ladies on the street to see who gets excited and over what? I would imagine with all their restrictions it doesn't take too much skin or movement for things to rise to the occasion! The hand gestures of the women must remind them too much of personal pleasure!

[Hometown Postville]

(addendum to above) "Rabbi Malachi- You must look away! I see that women in green stimulates you! Therefore and forevermore no man shall be allowed to look upon women in green!"
"Do you mean forest green or lime green, Rabbi?"
"Well, I didn't catch which one that was but let's find out! Just wait-another one should be coming around soon"
"Rabbi! Look at that woman with the boyish haircut! Doesn't she remind you of the little boys at the school?" (They all moan........)
"Here comes another one in lime green! AAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd- lime green is the winner! Make a note of that and add it to the rulebook!"

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I would imagine with all their restrictions it doesn't take too much skin or movement for things to rise to the occasion!

I bet 'rabbis' like these people going to the grocery is filled with all kinds of travails.

"Oh, look a woman is reaching for a can of peas. Yeah, that's it. You like that don't you? Oops! I think I 'wrecked' my pants."

[Asa]

Gross. Could've done without that image in my head.

[Yank]

If the Rabbi's Mother were around she would show him some hand gestures -- shtay sterot lachey --right in the kisser! Pow!!!

[Yosef ben Matitya]

"raa-bohy" mordechai ekiyaku is a meen, moron and naguah with the hashqofeh of that whom he calls in his homilies "rabenu zalmen" (of Liadi) and the mamesh!

[Yosef ben Matitya]

to the russian phd above,
your biography, is a tad askew. the wikipedia biography is more credible in this case:
.......He travelled overseas several times in order to meet with the Chabad Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneersohn, and subsequently kept a close relationship with the Chabad movement....(a darling of the racialy pure russian emigres)
....he was among the ideologues and founders of Brit HaKanaim, an underground religious organisation which sought to impose Jewish religious teachings in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state. He was tried and sentenced to 10 months imprisonment for activities in which he took part in his capacity as a member of the group.....(I don't think he actually wounded anybody but the thought was in their agenda)
........He has four children, one of whom, Shmuel Eliyahu, is the Chief Rabbi of Safed...... (shmuel ekiyaku is as rabid as his father).....Ekiyaku was a friend of Rabbi (sic) Meir Kahane and his family.
.......

The guy nevertheless is absolutely nuts like his lubavitch friends!

[Dr. Dave]

How would they deal with Helen Keller?

They would gag her hands with mittens.

BTW philosophical question:

If Helen Keller fell alone in the forest would she make a sound?

[kathiego]

I'm sure women everywhere would have a part of the hand gesture for Rabbi Eliayahu - the flying fickle finger of fate. This is given when you don't use the thumb, don't use the index finger, don't use the fourth finger and don't use the pinky finger. Another idea is the gesture used in warding off the evil eye - the Rabbi's evil eye. Clearly he has problems with women. Is he still married? Difficult to understand how he gets away with these pronouncements year after year - misogynist. That anyone would still listen to him? I thought he was supposed to be a former Chief Rabbi. I think Hometown Postville has it correct.