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July 22, 2009

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Yakira

"...this would eliminate the impetus for excessive pesticide use, but would also eliminate a revenue stream for the rebbeim so he chose not to. that is why any applause should be backhanded."

I could not have said it any better, APC.

Maven

Ben: the dynamics are, that if the community suddenly is moving rightward with some crazy chumra, and you are a Rabbi, standing there and saying its silly, suddenly you are no longer "frum", etc. We've seen this over and over again, and not just in the Chareidi world (viz R. Ovadia Yosef and women wearing pants).

Ben

Thanks Maven. The question remains, why rabbanut did not step in at the time of the original hysteria? Why they did not declare then that this is an unnecessary humrah? Is it because BADATZ and some agri-producers were planting seeds for big money trees, from which rabbanut expected to benefit as well?

Again, the only way to solve the problem is not by adding another layer of expensive regulations and creating new easy jobs for fast growing rabbinic families in need of new income streams members, but to go back to what was done for 3000 years - no heksher for veggies.

Also the rabbis are culprits in these types of periodic hysterias. They educate people to be OCD, then some of the rabbis take advantage of “the halachic man’s” acquired OCD skills while others are silently standing by while the simple, and my I say stupid, Jews are being robbed and poisoned.

Maven

Ben, if you know the history of this new chumrah, you know that it wasn't the Rabbanut that decreed it, it was one of the truly grass roots auto-chumras in history. Suddenly everyone was wild about broccoli, and no one would buy vegetables without bug checks, I remember this madness in Israel, people weren't letting their kids eat at school, they were wandering around the groceries looking for bug free certified broccoli, etc.
There was even a non-Jewish poster on this site claiming that people swarmed around her mother to learn how to identify microscopic bugs. And while its not even clear that microscopic organisms are actually forbidden, it seems to be what the "people" want.

Yankele

In college, I had to read Rachel Carson's Silent Spring for class. That Shabbat, I went home to my parents and we had the local OU representative (and his family) over for lunch. When he saw the book, he joked that Rachel Carson is the reason why today we have to check our vegetables. Because in the good ol' days (again, jokingly) all veges were sprayed to death.

I don't know why, but ever since then, I find myself smelling my fruits and thinking
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

Ben

Maven, the rabbanut have created the problem by introducing unnecessary hashgoha regulations, now the rabbanut is trying to solve the problem by issuing more regulations, which would lead to more corruption, bigger price tag to the public and greater power for the rabbanut. This is not reasonable. Therefore I can not applaud the rabbanut on this one.

The only real solution is to drop the veggie kashrut humra, but this will not be done since their lust for money blinds their judgement.

Isa

The 'Green Revolution' was brought about by the modern instrumentation that started to appear (in robust commercial form) about the 1970s[and is constantly improving]. Pesticides usually have some chlorine molecule the presence of which can be detected, to the part per trillion. That was when residue DDT and related compounds were found to be in the environment and were banned. Other compounds such as sulfur can be detected as well. Metals can be detected in the part per billion range that why leaded paint was banned, as lead was beginning to show up in blood.
Mercury is detectable in parts per trillion. These are just examples.

Yoel B

Washing doesn't do much good for a lot of fruits and veggies, not to mention that some pesticides, especially if improperly used, can be taken up by the plants' roots and incorporated into the produce.

ah-pee-chorus

i applaud the rabbi for wishing to use his influence to limit unsafe pesticide use.
however, the reason this overuse is occurring is due to the growers desire to obtain an unnecessary hechsher. what the rabbi should have said is that since the beginning of time there have been bugs in food, so no hashgacha is required, rather the end user should do his best to wash off any bugs he can see and that will suffice as it always has before. this would eliminate the impetus for excessive pesticide use, but would also eliminate a revenue stream for the rebbeim so he chose not to. that is why any applause should be backhanded.

nobody

Too bad they got rid of Gush Katif which was the major source of hydroponic vegetables and also was a huge percentage of the Israeli agriculture sector. Boy was that stupid.

maven

For crying out loud, for once the rabbanut does the right thing and even then the gang here has complaints. Also, some of you must live in a basement. Israel is a modern country, and they have an FDA equivalent, which is how pesticides are monitored. Rabbi Metzger deserves credit; after all, the same impulse (doesn't matter what we're doing as long as we have a hechsher, shomer petaim hashem) is what drove the excesses of Rubaschkin. I can't for the life of me fathom what "itchiemayer" is complaining about, for example. You want your kids to be eating pesticides at yeshiva?
For the record, the dati leumi world used to be on the forefront of hydroponic food development, a dear friend of mine was involved with this before being killed by a terrorist in front of his wife and children several years ago.

Dave Marshall

Yochanan,Ben, excellent posts.
Haven't people heard of washing vegetables before they eat them?

Yoel B

When I first started studying kashrut, I was told "There's no need to say that poisonous plants aren't kosher since common sense says not to eat them."
Boy was that rabbi wrong. Not only will some people eat poison, they'll pay extra for it!

Reminds me of the old leftist song, The Man who Waters the Workers' Beer:

Chorus:

I am the man, the very fat man,
That waters the workers' beer
I am the man, the very fat man,
That waters the workers' beer
And what do I care if it makes them ill,
If it makes them terribly queer
I've a car, a yacht, and an aeroplane,
And I waters the workers' beer

Verses:

Now when I waters the workers' beer,
I puts in strychnine
Some methylated spirits,
And a can of kerosine
Ah, but such a brew so terribly strong,
It would make them terribly queer
So I reaches my hand for the watering-can
And I waters the workers' beer

Now a drop of good beer is good for a man
When he's tired, thirsty and 'ot
And I sometimes have a drop myself,
From a very special pot
For a strong and healthy working class
Is the thing that I most fear
So I reaches my hand for the watering-can
And I waters the workers' beer

Now ladies fair, beyond compare,
Be you maiden or wife
Spare a thought for such a man
Who leads such a lonely life
For the water rates are terribly high,
And the meths is terribly dear
And there isn't the profit there used to be
In watering the workers' beer.

sage

The global growth in "Organic Farming" will, more properly, take care of the situation, without Rabbinic meddling.

Yochanan Lavie

The obsession with microscopic insects is insane. They are harmless (although gross in concept) and unless something can be plainly seen with the naked eye, it doesn't count according to my understanding of halacha.

That said, it is detrimental to one's health to use too many pesticides, and it is good the rabbis recognize that.

itchiemayer

Rabbi Metzger - Another one with a reputation of gold....Not!

WoolSilkCotton

Ben 6:42, excellent summary.

David Willig

Does that mean the OU will remove its hechsher from wood alchohol and oven cleaners?

Ben

The Rabbanut will have either
1) establish a serious agricultural division complete with modern test labs to provide kosher certificates for vegitable growers who don't overuse pesticides. Or
2) stop certifying something that does not need any certification. Or
3) use age proven system of paternalism and corruption to determine who is trustworthy

I think they will default to the traditional system #3, which cost next to nothing, while allowing for serious inflow of kosher racket money, and keep the money in the family.

Nigritude Ultramarine

Evidently this rabbi is an expert in farming techniques and pest control. I'd love to be a "Chief Rabbi" for just three minutes to see how it feels to know everything about everything.

Michael Makovi

Good. It's high time that kashrut was correctly extended beyond the purely ritualistic parameters.

In the same way, let's also realize, "Glatt kosher? Glatt yoshor!"

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