Annals of Halakha: Haredim Are Not Allowed To Support Secular Law, Rabbi Elyashiv Says

"These laws they want to enforce are not Torah laws but laws…the legislators made up themselves. How can we support any non-Torah laws – even indirectly? We may not support them."

Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv is the defacto chief rabbi of the world's non-hasidic haredim.

Plan to Humiliate Traffic Offenders Nixed by Rav Elyashiv
Bakehila [Translated by Ezra Reichman for VIN News.]

Jerusalem - A chareidi avreich sent to the Transportation Ministry and the National Authority for Road Safety an original suggestion how to prevent the high number of traffic offenders. His idea was that 7-time serious traffic violation offenders would have their face and name publicized in the media. The idea has a simple principle behind it: humiliation is as powerful a motivation if not more than a stiff monetary fine.

The National Authority for Road Safety was enthusiastic about the idea and is presently preparing it as a bill for the Knesset to vote over. They asked the chareidi to come to their office to discuss the details of his plan with them.

Before he took up their offer, the avreich decided to check if the idea negates halacha in any way. He visited Rav Elyashiv to get his opinion.

Rav Elyashiv said that the idea is in principle good, but "these laws they want to enforce are not Torah laws but laws of arka'os which the legislators made up themselves. How can we support any non-Torah laws -- even indirectly? We may not support them."

The avreich tried to withdraw his suggestion, but the National Authority has already given its backing for the idea and said they will advance it to law.

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

Comments

[Rafi]

if that is the case, how can they ever justify voting for any bill in the knesset? what is the justification to sit in government at all , with that attitude?

[Ben]

What is justification of taking child allowances from the state, which is not a Torah law? Taking money for Yeshivot, which is not a Torah law?

It looks like he has pretty simple algorithm of determining what is and what is not Torah law. He basically has to answer the following basic questions:

a) Does the law benefits Rabbinical leadership?
b) Does the law benefits Rabbinical leadership power grip over haredi public?
c) Does the law disproportionally benefit haredi public, by taking resources from tax payers and transfering them to pious batlanim, thereby showing that God favors their life style?

If answer to these 3 or at least 2 first questions is yes, then it deemed to be consistent with Elyashiv's Torah law. If no then it is anti-Elyashiv Torah law.

[Hometown Postville]

No Judge Judy, I do not acknowledge that taking money from people who signed up for my investment plan is against the law. It's against my religion to follow constitutional law- my only failure was in getting caught.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Deport "Smiley" Elyashiv as a subversive.

[Dr. Dave]

His idea was that 7-time serious traffic violation offenders would have their face and name publicized in the media. The idea has a simple principle behind it: humiliation is as powerful a motivation if not more than a stiff monetary fine.

Great idea!!!!

How about we publicize the face and names of "rabbis" who seriously violate halacha with evil and ridiculous chumras.

Like oppressing converts by falsly and unhalachically trying to claim they are not Jews.

Like disrupting shalom bayit with demands of 12 children.

Like instructing their followers that it is OK to cheat on taxes.

Like encouraging followers to violate the shabbat to protest non Jews using a parking lot on shabbat!!!

[David Willig]

How about stopping at a red light. The Torah does not say anything about it. Nor speed limits. The Torah does not ban TV, Movies or the internet. Why does he?

[Ben]

Yohanan, but ""Smiley" Elyashiv " never ever smiles. There is no photo that I've seen of this guy where he would even grin.

Dr.Dave. I agree all of those peoples names and photos and connections should be publicised and lists distributed to every corner of the world. They are not less dangerous then pedophiles.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i think what he meant to say was that man-made laws cannot be supported unless those man-made laws were written long ago and were codified by other men into a man-made fairy tale called the torah.

[yidandahalf]

If I wasn't already a Jew, I would convert, buy the necessary paraphenalia and disguise myself as a holy roller and do as I please. It wouldn't be difficult to even found a new haredi sect complete with a WunderRebbe who could interpret just about any transgression in my favour and I could just live it up.

[sage]

It seems, that the time is approaching, when the followers of "The Black Pope of Jerusalem", Lubavs, Charedi, etc., need to purchase and settle on an uninhabited island of their own, where they may practice their heretical faith, far away from the rest of humanity.

[Ben]

Everyone is trying to outmachmir the other. They make fences for the fences of the other fences and thus forever. Nobody takes courage to say that cetain fences outlived their usefullness. This would not be machmir and a guy who'll try it would immidiately loose status of "gadol hador".

Machmir and control contest is in voque nowadays. Throw you hat it the ring! It is free for all!

[ah-pee-chorus]

sage: that would never work. there would be nobody off of whom they could practice their parasitism.

[ah-pee-chorus]

how come the chumras and fences never seem to be applied in business dealings?

[maven]

APC: It is applied in business dealings, just not in the way you'd expect. Donate to me, and we'll make the halacha protect you :)

Ben: its all politics. The more machmir you go, the more you can claim that you are the genuine Torah. Beis Hillel is no more than a street name in Benei Berak, Koach D'chumrasa atif nowadays.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Those fences should be literal ones, very high, with barbed wire, to keep anyone different out of their community. That would, of course, include the mailman delivering the welfare checks.

[sage]

Good idea, WSC.

Maybe, perchance, the barbed wire fences at the Federal Super Max Prison may be an improvement.

There, they would still be isolated from the rest of humanity, be able to practice their heresy and be able to receive some mail.

[WoolSilkCotton]

With more and more of our haredi bretheren going to prison,the Federal Prison may, in fact, soon become the new Kiryas Joel. We already saw a big bar mitzvah bash at the NY Federal Corrections Center.

Perhaps they could call it Kiryas Aaron, in honor of old man Rubashkin.

[Aaron Duchan]

I respect Rav Ovadia far more than Rav Eliyashiv -- though Shas as a political movement is corrupt and repugnant. Rav Ovadia has done his best to find ways to allow Agunot to marry. Rav Ovadia knows what a credit card is. Rav Ovadia knows what an automobile is. Rav Ovadia's daughter founded and heads a charedi college for women.

Rav Eliyashiv probably still thinks that most people get around by horse and buggy and prays every day that the Moshiach should come and send the select few true believers (his followers only, of course) back to the good old days of the 12'th century.

Where are the Chofetz Chiam's, the Ben Ish Chai's, the Shimshon Raphael Hirsh's, the Rav Kook's of this generation?

Give me even one Rav Moshe Feinstein!

The Charedi World is rapidly spinning into a incestuous black hole of collective amnesia and a perverted virtual reality.

Too bad that so many innocent people will suffer from the warped world view of their leaders.

[ah-pee-chorus]

++Give me even one Rav Moshe Feinstein++

Posted by: Aaron Duchan

feinstein assured owning any book with evolution in it. this small-minded man is what you hearken for?

[ah-pee-chorus]

and ovadia's recent comments on the holocaust certainly point him out as a forward thinking reasonable man.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

lock him in an asylum and throw the keys in yam hamelach 7 parasang from the shoreline @ ein gedi.
better yet, throw him in yam hamelach 7 parasang from the shoreline @ ein gedi.

[Ben]

Intellectual dishonesty in general/fundamental approach leads to intellectual dishonesty in practical halachot.

[A,. Nuran]

My biggest problems with this sort of nonsense are:

1) They've made the fence around the Torah so frickin' high and thick that nobody can get near it. Truth "surrounded by a bodyguard of lies."

2) They've become idolatrous. G-d doesn't enter into the picture. It's all about the worship of dead lawyers. This is an area where the Muslims have a good idea in the concept of shirk - ascribing partners or equals to G-d. We've degenerated to the point where we are forced to say that fallible human being speak with the Voice and authority of the Almighty or be cast out of Judaism and, according to those same men, forfeit the afterlife. Call me a heretic, but there's just one G-d. And since the last Prophets NOBODY has the right to usurp His authority.

3) It's bad for the Jews. It makes us look like a bunch of venal, moneygrubbing, amoral, parasitic, thieving, baby-raping sociopaths who can't wipe our noses without a mullah's permission.

[Yoel B]

Sounds like the declaration of a chareidi intifada.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

above note that:
"You might also like: 'Sanhedrin' Calls To Abolish Secular Law" as well as: "BREAKING! Chief Rabbi Sides With Haredim, Backs Conversion Annulments – Thousands Of Converts In Limbo"
reminds us that the problem is not only with haredi elioshiv, but also with mostly hardal and lunatic settlers (dov lior type) and megalomanes like (the not so) adin even yisrael of the self appointed sanhedrin (DMC) and the office of the ashkenazi chief rabbi. they are all nuts!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ben: I know he never smiles. The nickname was sarcastic.

[A. Nuran]

If you put deny the legitimacy of the Law you also deny yourself its protections. In the Bad Old Days outlaws could be killed with impunity. As long as these self-worshipping pious frauds continue along this path they should be considered outlaws, beyond the protection of the Law. Killing them is not murder. At most it's littering or endangering bystanders.

When they are willing to grow up and accept the responsibilities of the Law its protections should be extended over them once again.

[Yakira]

This guy really does not have a clue; in addition, it is people like him who give non-Jews ammunition to ostracize and condemn all Jews.