The Truth About Jewish Marriage In 42 Seconds

You won't hear this from ArtScroll.

Jewish marriage was not about love or personal compatibility:

Rabbi Dr. Yoel Finkelman, An Introduction to Artscroll: What Popular Literature Can Teach Us About Contemporary Orthodoxy, Torah In Motion.

Comments

[Michael Makovi]

So? It was the Medieval era! People around the world would marry their daughters off, often to their business partner's son or some such, without any expection of personal combatibility.

The Gemara says a woman would rather be married to a schmuk than to no one. I think it is obvious that this fits with the social mores of the time; people married for economic and reproductive reasons, not romantic ones.

Of course, people expected different things out of marriage than we do today, so they weren't disappointed. Men expected someone to cook and bear children, and women expected someone to earn a wage.

[Michael Makovi]

Obviously, today, marriage does not operate like this, and no one will dispute this.

Of course, a few people inexplicably think the Gemara's statement (that a woman would rather be married to a schmuk than to no one) still applies, even as they simultaneously themselves marry for romance and have their children do the same.

[onionsoupmix]

What struck me, is that in every generation, there are those who sit around worrying what awful unions will undermine marriage as a fundamental institution.

[Successful Messiah]

"Jewish marriage was not about love or personal compatibility"

Shmarya, don't give up hope. If you are looking for love, love is blind so there is still hope for you. If you are looking for personal compatibility, I'm afraid I can hold out much hope for you.

[alternative childcare]

That would explain why the divorce rate among the Yeshiva world was so high in the nineteenth century as documented in the literature.
Of course, since the overall survival rate was also so low, with extremely high infant and maternal mortality at childbirth, many of these relationships were quite short.
The other thing that all the yearning for the "good old days" will not bring back is marrying 12 year old girls.
This whole mythology about how good the old days were when everyone was frum and the baal agoloh knew shas, is of course, a politically motivated fairy tale.

[Dovid Komarov]

alternative childcare

can you please give names of some literature that talks about divorce rates in yeshiva comunity in 19th century.

[alternative childcare]

Prof. Paula Hyman cites it in her work "Gender and Assimilation in Modern Jewish History: Roles and Representations of Women" (a work, which contains perhaps the most favorable assessment of Bais Yaakov schools around, interesting how the Rabbi reacted then, the reverse reaction would likely occur today).

[radical feminist]

AC
didn't know there was a high divorce rate in the Yeshiva world in the 19th Century. I do know that people died often young and from horrible diseases, as TB was epidemic in the Jewish world and claimed large numbers of people. Didn't Rabbi Nachman's wife die of TB?
Anyway, the overcrowding, poor diet and unclean conditions made for a fairly unhealthy way to live.

[Yonah]

Well, apparently it is rare that a couple whose child dies stays together. Infant mortality rates were higher then, as mentioned - maybe this contributed.

[norm]

Was "Yentl" a true story?

[yudel]

Rav Shimon Schwab said and i paraphrase. We must teach our daughter that our mother's were happy. It is alright if it is a myth but not bring in history to challenge this.

Keep in mind this is paraphrase from Tradition long time ago.

interesting that divorce rates remain up to around 50% today and abuse is higher in the frum community than in the rest of jewish community

[Dr. Dave]

The truth about Jewish marriage from the Catskills:

Take my bashert. Please.

(rimshot)

"Rabbi - my doctor says I only have a year to live"

"My advice to you is get married as soon as possible!"

"Will that prolong my days?"

"No, but it will make that year seem alot longer!"

(rimshot)

"Rabbi - why is a get so expensive?"

"Because it's worth it!"

(rimshot)

"Rabbi - why do men die before their wives?"

"Because we want to!"

(rimshot)

"Rabbi - how can I get rid of two hundred pounds of ugly fat quickly?"

"Divorce him !!!"

(rimshot)

[A. Nuran]

Yudel, Shimon Schwab is a fucking liar. He admits he's a liar. He's proud of being a liar. He encourages others to become liars.

Why should anyone listen to what an admitted liar says?

And how the fuck can anyone call him "Rav" with a straight face?

[Yoel Mechanic]

Separating myth from fact is a very useful endeavor, especially for anyone here who wants to take a long term approach to reforming injustice. Fundamental to that is the study of history. If there is one thing that would be most useful to have taught in Yeshivas it would be history. Real history, as opposed to anecdote and chronology. This would also include analysis of history.

[peter]

Michael Makovi; women STILL want a guy that earns - you have to produce, or you don't get to REproduce. They want men who are "driven", who have "ambition", like Madoff, Abramowitz, Rubashkin...and men still want children, along with a world of impossible physical demands (due to this being a 'mans world', even in the realm of fantasy). Most people, until the advent of TV, etc, had the common knowledge, now much less common, that people DO come to have the kind of affection called "love" for someone, that 'love at first sight' is mostly bullocks, and real love is something that takes work. nowadays, when 90% of our ideas about relationships come from movies and utter makebelieve, where marriage comes at the END of the movie, where no dynamics of how families work, have no idea what real expectations are or should be. Of course "nowadays", when divorce is easier and has less social stigma...many people STILL have unhappy marriages, and I think it's clearly due to muffed expectations. Charedim live in their world of truth with delusion, so do the dati leumi, Modern orthodox, etc, etc.

[Namor]

Why stop at the foreskin? Remove the testicles too, do the people who aren't practicing prehistoric Bronze Age traditions(including marriage) 6,000 years after the Bronze Age ended a service. 100 years from now we will be a Type 1 civilization, and there will be no more troglodytes practicing prehistoric traditions.

[shosha]

Peter:
"women STILL want a guy that earns - you have to produce, or you don't get to REproduce. They want men who are "driven", who have "ambition", like Madoff, Abramowitz, Rubashkin..."
I think you lose sight of the religious circles where it's not necessarily the girl doing the choosing, but her parents. Her parents want a) the best in the yeshiva, or b) the wealthiest. Once a boy's (or, for that matter, a girl's) merits have been quantified, he/she is then ready to be graded for suitability. The romance has not been passively lost to movies with unbelievable romantic plots as you suggest, but rather by parental expectations; parents and shadchanim who make a concerted effort to remove the 'romance' from a match before it's even been made.

"many people STILL have unhappy marriages, and I think it's clearly due to muffed expectations. Charedim live in their world of truth with delusion, so do the dati leumi, Modern orthodox, etc, etc."

Ahh, yes - these social groups live in a self-imposed exclusion, but please don't believe that they are necessarily 'deluded'. There are very few communities nowadays that are unaware of other systems and alternative worldviews; even the most hardcore chassidish communities have been influenced by movies and other aspects of an 'enlightened' world. Yet they cling to their own simply because it is the best sytem of the many offered.

[alternative childcare]

Shosha: I grew up in the chassidish world, and love it, but your line at the end is simply false: Yet they cling to their own simply because it is the best sytem of the many offered.

Actually, the truth is, they cling to that world because it is what they were born into and know. This is true of all societies, and not a critique. There is a wonderful article by Steven Katz about the conservative nature of the mystical experience, if you were a Hindu and meditated you'd have Hindu visions, and if you were a Safed kabbalist, you'd see Safed visions.
One cannot say that something is the "best" of many offered if your experience reaches until 13th Ave, and that's where all your friends, social pressures, etc, reach.
I understand your need to make self aggrandizing statements, since otherwise the lifestyle would be hard to maintain.

[Read in Horrified Fascination]

Why do you post this shit?

[shosha]

AC:I grew up in a pseudo chassidish world, albeit not in the US, and love it. Let me repeat, there are only small cliques that are unaware of other systems. I agree, conditioning is powerful, but less so today than it once was. Today Yiddishkeit is worth a whole lot more because (generally) one can make the active choice to maintain a religious lifestyle or not. It is juvenile and naive to suppose that individuals are unaware; unless one is part of a satmar clique far away in the hills, one has come into contact with countless 'outside influences'. Don't imagine for a moment that he who hasn't been past 13th ave hasn't seen the world on a laptop screen, either at home or at a friend's. Don't think that he/she hasn't been in to the city and been 'contaminated'. Ok, conceded, perhaps there are a few of these, but not as many as you seem to think.

So let me elaborate on my last line:
The system I speak of is the Shidduch system, in all it's faulty glory. I am the first to admit that it has its many (many MANY ad infinitum) faults and I don't attempt to defend these, but rather laugh at them in amused frustration. BUT, within the frum world, there is no better system. Can you think of one? Thus, within these communities, regardless of whether they've been infiltrated by alternative ideas of dating and romance and supposed 'love', this system sticks because there is no other way that is suitable, or more importantly, 'halachically ordained' by community leaders.

I don't know your background, but in my experience, those within the shidduch system are unimpressed with it but wouldn't dream of going about it any differently. So I stand by my point that the frum circles cling to this mode of 'dating' simply because it is the best system (within the spectrum of 'appropriate') that is offered.

Oh, and "I understand your need to make self aggrandizing statements, since otherwise the lifestyle would be hard to maintain."
Respectfully, you've no clue what environ I'm coming from nor what lifestyle I maintain.

[nobody]

Nuran, what are you basing this hateful tirade on? What Yudel wrote as a "paraphrasing" ?

What Yudel wrote is not even coherent. If he learns to write in proper English perhaps we could even make sense of it, (still questioning its veracity as a paraphrase) but why are you so quick to attack Rabbi Shwab who was a big tzaddik according to those who knew him? You sound like a child.

[Ben]

Rav Schwab is one of the main pillars of Orthodoxy in 20th century. His honesty about necessity to create false history in order to maintain haredi lifestyle is reviealing. "The goal justifies the means"

[Yoel Mechanic]

Ben, could you elaborate about your comments on Rav Schwab. Please be specific as possible, and don't hesitate to give references or websites.

[Michael Makovi]

I don't know much about R' Schwab, but his Elu v'Elu evinces an attempt to subtle undermine the Torah-only ideology. That is, Elu v'Elu exoterically says Torah-only is legitimately due to the principle of "elu v'elu divrei elokim hayim", but esoterically, he limits (okimtas) Torah-only so much, that by the end of his essay, only TIDE is viable. (I've been learning Rambam's philosophy recently. Does it show? Why cannot others be esoteric as well? :P )

That's all I know about R' Schwab. So if he was actually a Haredi who supported historical revisionism, I'd be very interested; please elaborate!