BREAKING! Chief Rabbis Demand Haredi Control Over Conversions

High Rabbinic Court decision based in large part on wall posters signed by leading haredi rabbis, not on actual halakha. All converts are suspect, rabbis say.

Rabbinate demands haredi control over conversion
By MATTHEW WAGNER • Jerusalem Post

Since conversion to Judaism can have a negative impact on the spiritual purity of the Jewish people, only the greatest halachic authorities of the haredi rabbinical establishment can decide on this, the Chief Rabbinate's High Rabbinical Court ruled recently.

"Any decisions by Rabbinical Conversion Courts or rabbinic marriage registrars that are not in accordance with the opinion of the greatest halachic authorities of the generation hurt the purity of Jewish people," wrote Rabbi Avraham Sherman, head of the High Rabbinical Court.

"There is a real danger that gentiles will be allowed to enter the Jewish community. Anyone who did not embrace an Orthodox lifestyle at the time of conversion is a gentile and if this person is female all of her children are gentiles as well," Sherman continued.

The High Court also ruled that the high proportion of potential converts to Judaism who are not sincere about embracing Orthodoxy was an insurmountable challenge that made it impossible to rely on any rabbinical conversion court - haredi or modern Orthodox - to perform a kosher conversion.

Sherman stated explicitly that a conversion has no validity unless the convert proves he or she has embraced an Orthodox lifestyle. Anything less is unacceptable.

According to the decision, the Jewishness of converts can in theory be revoked at any time, no matter how long ago the conversion took place and no matter which Rabbinical Conversion Court performed the conversion.

Conversions can and must be revoked if, for instance, after the conversion process the convert admits that he or she did not adhere to the Orthodox halachic restrictions governing Shabbat, kashrut or other Jewish laws.

To preserve the purity of the Jewish people, every convert must be scrutinized on an individual basis by rabbinic marriage registrars and rabbinic courts before he or she is permitted to marry or divorce, Sherman wrote in a 34-page rabbinical opinion handed down within the framework of an appeal case on May 10.

Rabbi David Stav, a senior member of Tzohar Rabbis, an organization of moderate Orthodox Zionist rabbis, called Sherman's comments scandalous.

"Sherman is committing the biblical sin of insulting the convert," Stav, who is chief rabbi of Shoham, said on Tuesday. "A group of haredi functionaries are willing to place under suspicion thousands of converts just because they want to wage a political power struggle.

"When [former Chief Ashkenazi] Rabbi Shlomo Goren wanted to annul a conversion the haredi community attacked him, claiming it was impossible. Now they have changed their minds according to political interests."

Stav was referring to the Langer case in which Goren annulled the conversion of a woman's husband to prevent her children from being considered mamzerim (the result of an illicit sexual act which bars them from marrying a Jew).

Stav said haredi activists were using the conversion issue to shore up their rabbinical clout vis-à-vis the Orthodox Zionist establishment.

Stav, who serves as the Chief Rabbinate's marriage registrar in his town, said he accepts all converts converted by a legitimate Rabbinical Conversion Court.

"I do so whether the conversion was performed by the Chief Rabbinate or by a haredi conversion court, although I must say that converts who come out of haredi conversion courts are usually less serious than those converted by the Chief Rabbinate," he said.

A three-man panel of rabbinical judges made up of Sherman, Rabbi Hagai Izerer and Rabbi Zion Algrabli rejected the halachic principle that a rabbinic court decision, once handed down, was irreversible.

Sherman was responding to a Tel Aviv Rabbinical Court ruling in a divorce case that involved a woman who had converted to Judaism.

The Tel Aviv Rabbinical Court refused to accept claims by the husband that his wife's conversion was invalid, because, he claimed, the wife had paid a NIS 10,000 bribe to the court that performed her conversion.

The Tel Aviv court ruled instead that it did not have the power to overturn a decision - in this case a conversion - by another court since the underlying assumption is that rabbinical courts know what they are doing.

However, Sherman rejected the Tel Aviv court's argument despite the fact that it was based on an accepted halachic principle. He ruled that the Jewish status of the woman and her children must be lifted until the Tel Aviv court could ascertain whether the claims against the validity of her conversion could be refuted.

Sherman said in a telephone interview with The Jerusalem Post that there was nothing new in his decision and that he was basing himself on the opinions of this generation's greatest halachic scholars, both living and deceased.

Sherman quoted from declarations published in recent decades by leading haredi halachic authorities such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, considered to be the single most important living halachic decisor for haredi Ashkenazi Jewry. Sherman also quoted deceased authorities such as Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Ohrbach, Rabbi Ya'acov Yisrael Kanyevsky and Rabbi Elazar Menachem Man Shach.

In one declaration, signed by Shach, Kanyevsky, Ohrbach [sic – should be: Auerbach] and Elyashiv and dating from the summer of 1984, the rabbis warned that "since there has been a rise in the number of converts who have been accepted as Jews and that it has become known that a large percentage of them had no intention of accepting upon themselves the burden of the commandments at the time of conversion... We are warning that there is a prohibition to accept converts without first being sure that they are interested in accepting upon themselves all the commandments."

Sherman and the other rabbinical judges in May concluded from this declaration and others that every conversion must be considered suspect, "whether it was performed by the Edah Haredit or some other rabbinic court that is recognized more or recognized less, when a person presents a conversion certificate issued by a rabbinic court and that person's appearance is far from the appearance of an observant Jew or that person comes from a place that has no observant community."

Sherman said this was especially true in the case that came before the Tel Aviv Rabbinic Court, which dealt with the Jewishness of the wife and her children.

My Comments (at the bottom of the post). 

High Rabbinic Court Revokes Another Conversion.

Chief Rabbi Backs Rabbi Sherman.

Rabbi Sherman: Converts Are Liars.

A Few Modern Orthodox Rabbis Fight Back

The New Conversion Scandal Part 1.

The New Conversion Scandal Part 2.

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

Comments

[pierre]

Yes. It is truly *breaking* news. Rabbis committing - and committed to committing - the violation of not one mitzvah many times - but some 36 seperate mitzvot in Torah many times (Bava Metzia 59b; possibly over 100 averot, if each of the 36 instances is worth 3, daf above), over each of the *sincere* converts they "suspect" on such basis as how they're dressed when they're doubted (of course a goy can have a nice full beard and simper like the best of them).

[maven]

"There is a real danger that gentiles will be allowed to enter the Jewish community."

One should look at his lineage, this idea doesn't sound like something someone truly Jewish would say...

[Yochanan Lavie]

If they didn't have political power, the malevolent penguins could be ignored.

[pierre]

Yochanan; I would prefer benevolent penguins in the Rabbinut. simply because I have never experienced the benevolence of penguins. It may be a good thing for Israel - and penguins.

[Asa]

Such reports remind me of the Torah quote that converts are a blight to Israel. I've never been sure as to what the meaning of that quote is. I wonder what the rabbis' impetus is for these annulments, stringencies, preventions, inguiqisitions, etc. I wonder if there's any merit to any of it.

[Asa]

sorry, I meant "inquisitions"

[Ben]

This maniac and his gang are striking repeatedly. They already achieved their evil goals:
1) All converts and their progeny are suspects for all eternity
2) No "hosheve" Jew would ever marry a convert or their progeny
3) No sane person would convert to a religion that forever is going to treat you as an outcast

They already created a new class of untouchables and destroyed their lifes and their childrens lifes forever. Why do they need additional hits? Why they deliever beating after beating on already liveless body?

The only answer I can rationally come up with that this is a trully sadistic group of animals (sorry I can no longer bring myself to call them people).

[maven]

Asa: Its not a "Torah" quote, its one line in the midrash, and countered by literally dozens of contrary ones in the midrash and talmud. There was a huge wave of conversion and semi-conversion in first century Rome, most of the Rabbis were very in favor, and there's always a dissenter.
The odd thing is that we always seem to believe the negative, "assur" view is somehow the more authentic one, even if the countering texts outnumber this one by ten-fold.

[Asa]

I'm new to Jewish studies, Maven. I ought to have written "Talmud", not "Torah". My bad. Never wrote that I agreed with the "assur" opinion, though. I am a "convert who is converting". Such reports freak me out.

[maven]

Asa: I used the "we" language, meant this phenomenologically, not referring to you or any individual. Somehow we will always remember the negative over the positive, true psychologically of many things.
My sympathies for what you must be going through.

Archie: welcome back, at least for now :)
The issue isn't one case here or there, it is the wholesale retroactive invalidation of thousands of conversions and their offspring no matter what their halachic lifestyle is. And THAT is unacceptable and unprecedented.

[Isa]

When will the Reform and Conservative Jews wake up and figure that by and large, they will not be considered Jews anymore.

That if one cannot reliably confirm their descendants back to Europe.
One has to have ketubot signed by 'acceptable' rabbis available for inspection for your parents, grandparents and even great grandparents. Heaven help you if these are not available or have been signed by a 'unacceptable' rabbis.

[Asa]

In truth, I haven't voiced any of my concerns to anyone at my orthodox shul, much less my rabbi. At the moment I'm freaking out privately. My convictions are clean. No ulterior motives. However, I won't become a chassid. If that's what I'm supposed to become, I'll seek out a shul of philosophies more similar to mine, though the modern orthodox shuls in my area seem to be moving more and more into medieval times. I'm not sure I'm willing to sign up for Big Brother.

[Yonah]

It's taught that a potential Moshiach comes in every generation, but we lose him due to our sins. I guess it's obvious why nobody's coming in our generation - moshiach would have been declared a goy thanks to that obvious liar of an ancestor, Ruth, who as a Moabite couldn't have converted anyway, who clearly did so for ulterior motives, namely the acquisition of a goel and the wealth of Boaz, and whom I heard once even wore pants.

[Dr. Dave]

Can we put the cooked cockroach in charge instead of these half baked rashas?

[MisterApikoros]

I am not a rich man, but I'm very far from poor. The $10,000 or $25,000 I might donate to Israel won't mean a whole lot in the larger scheme of things.

But as long as Israel remains a theocracy, ruled on religious matters by idiots like this fuckwit rabbi Sherman, they won't get a nickel from me. Neither will organizations such as Birthright Israel, which I'd like to support except Birthright is basically a propaganda tool designed to (1) discourage intermarriage and (2) to encourage aliyah. If the young men and women going on Birthright trips stay sober long enough to see what's going on in Israel, I don't know if they'd get a very favorable impression. After all, if half of them marry outside the faith, and if some spouses convert and the couple then wishes to make aliyah, rectal orifices such as Sherman will do whatever they can to make them unwelcome.

They can start out by reading this blog before they pack their bags.

[Dr. Dave]

The chareidim who follow this obscene violation of the torah are kofrim and have removed themselves from the kahal (marriage group) of G-d.

We should not intermarry with these chareidi sinners as no one with a good yichut would act this way. There is obviously defects in their lineage or they were born of niddahs or something else is wrong.

We should not consider them as Jews until they recant thier kefirah.

We should not donate a penny to them or to Israel until this shameful obscenity and blight upon the Jewish state has been rectified!!

[S]

There are many charity organizations (dati) in Israel that need our support. Just be aware of who you give to

[S]

Also what are charaidim going to say about the Jewishness of Karaites who have traditionally been accepted as jews

[Asa]

I have heard Karaites mocked and the mere mention of them scoffed and scorned at. Also heard stories of how chassidic rabbis saved their hides from death camps.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Pierre: What about Batman's nemesis, The Penguin? ;)

[Michelle]

B"H

Stress Relief: Smack a Penguin Game

[Michelle]

www.funrestarea.com/pages/penguin_baseball.shtml

[Yoel]

I'm wondering where all this negativity comes from. Is it from caring so much? Or perhaps trauma at the hands of an insensitive cad wearing a yamulke? I'm just curious and for each commenter, it seems to come out with unstated reasons. Reasons I would love to hear so I could understand.

[Ben]

Yoel, your negativity question should be first addressed to Shermannn, Sheinin, Attias, Elyashiv and other haredi katanim.

After they send you detailed answers and you share it with us, I'll send you mine. Deal?

[I rather not say]

Asa:
You have a choice to make......
If you stay on your path, you have to consider who will marry you. It won't really be that hard to marry lets say a Conservative lady. As her family will know other families whose children outright intermarried. HOWEVER that Conservative lady is just NOT going to go to the mikve past the wedding (if at that)Now you will be known as one who has strayed the path by these wackos.
Orthodox lady: Unless you are willing to take 'the less desirable' you will have a TOUGH time with finding someone who will marry you OR more properly whose FAMILY will marry you ESPECIALLY if they are FFB (Frum from birth) my opinion: damm imposible UNLESS somehow you are rich THEN you have a slightly easier time. Be aware you might be asked to give up your family.BTW both my parent's peoples saved Jews so I feel I came from decent people and I should give them up!?
Then there are other convert ladies.
Which is OK except by and large converts want to get into the extended family and be invited for family events etc etc etc.
IF you DO stay on this path then I think you need to attend a summer Yeshiva even if only for a month. Very good experience except you have to be careful that your brain doesn't get screwed over.Have someone explain the philosophical differences between MO and typical black hat world view.

Understand! being a good moral person without converting will merit 'heaven' too!

[Yonah]

Asa, if you feel patronised, I'd like to officially apologise for some people's discouragement/random advice, although it comes with good intentions.

[Asa]

Yonah, I've been lurking this blog for many months now. It's one of the sites that brought me crashing down to earth from my Jewish fantasy-land. I'm thankful for it and all of you who have kept me "sober". I don't feel patronized at all. No need whatsoever to apologize. While I'm new to formal Jewish studies, I'm not as infantile in my approach to the world at large as I was not too long ago.

I'd love to give out a more detailed account of my conversion-process experience so far, but refrain from doing so at least for now.

I feel I have a basic understanding of the differences between MO and black hat. Again, as per these posts, coming across names like Soloveitchik, Kook, Feinstein, etc., and putting them together with the non-Bunker posters who mentioned them, I shelled out some dough on ebay and started familiarizing myself with halacha and how it's evolved. I've also been reading some feminist intepretations of both halacha and Torah, and find in some of these the Judaism I fell in love with. The intellectual striving, wrestling, etc. The intellect-based religion. The contraditions of emotion-based chassdism. I'm just coming to understand that if a chassic miracle story about some rebbe just doesn't gel with me I'm not Jewishly obligated to believe it.

I'm in a kind of swirl at the moment trying for the first time to think for myself, but I'll come through it. But the notion of handing my individuality over to black hats and living under a microscope freaks me out.

"I rather not say": I'm fully aware that being a good moral person without converting will merit 'heaven' too. But I'm in for the full shabang.

[Asa]

And, I reiterate, were it not for Shmarya's reporting and all your comments over these months, I might still have been in a frame of mind to have to bought into all the miracle stories of tzaddik captives stopping soviet boats on Shabbat with mind-power, and gentiles don't have free will, and can't perform good deeds absent of ulterior motive, nonsense. My mother's a Christian, and were it not for her I might have been sucked into the anti-semitic sentiment of the rest of my family. What motive had she?

Anyway, thanks, all. Good to finally talk to you.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yoel (9:33), you could probably sit down with any one of us from this website and hear hours of passionate discourse on how we've arrived at the feelings we now have about the Jewish religion and Jews.

Please don't discount the sincerity and conviction with which we hold those feelings.

The 'average' person here on FM has a wallful of diplomas, is about 35-60 years old, with accumulated life experience worth listening to and learning from.
At least, that's why I enjoy reading everyone's opinions.

[radical feminist]

No self respecting Jew would ever convert to this brand of Judaism. There are very few Jews that would ever sign up for this kind of crazy, and almost none that would believe in this kind of world view. Conversion is for the gentile because those of us raised Jewish would never agree to this.

[radical feminist]

I've also been reading some feminist intepretations of both halacha and Torah, and find in some of these the Judaism I fell I'm just coming to understand that if a chassic miracle story about some rebbe just doesn't gel with me I'm not Jewishly obligated to believe it.

You sound like a true Yid; which is why you would not be allowed to convert haredi.

[Asa]

"You sound like a true Yid": best compliment of my life. (:

[Hyman Rosen]

Why would Reform or Conservative (or even Orthodox) Jews care what the Haredi think of them? Maybe in Israel it matters, but there's no great rush of Reform or Conservative Jews making aliyah. Here in the US, you get to be as Jewish as you please, observe or not as you please, convert as you please, and marry whomever you please who wants to marry you back. In areas with large Jewish populations like NYC and LA you can find rabbis and synagogues which suit your philosophy - you don't have to abnegate your own self to suit theirs. If it sometimes feels like you're trapped in a cage, just remember that the door is unlocked and the only thing keeping you inside is you.

[Asa]

True, Hyman; very true. However, for many if not most really sinceere converts the awareness of the ultra-orthodoxy's rejection of their status as Jews is hard to swallow. "Your people shall be my people", remember?

Once more, though, what you write is true and eerily insightful.

[Asa]

*sincere*

[I rather not say]

"""But I'm in for the full shabang."""

Asa

OK

My advice after you convert is to attend Ohr Samech yeshiva. They have a two month summer program (But I went for one month)
The rabbis on top are 'black hat' but the rabbis that will go around with the students for the one week tour before and after are zionist (with a small z) Don't swallow all of it though - take back what is good and needed and forget the rest.
Some creepzoid (fellow student) tried to force me to wear a tallit catan and I had to forcefully say NO! So learn the halacha about requirements to wear a tallit catan so you can argue back.
Also ask what part of the Talmud that they will be learning and bring an English translation with you. As always be careful what you say.
Come back and decompress!
Now you are someone with a yeshiva background!
My own rabbi didn't want me to go! figure that! I said "point out some other programs" he couldn't.
Maybe people here have some alternative ideas

[Yonah]

"Why would Reform or Conservative (or even Orthodox) Jews care what the Haredi think of them? Maybe in Israel it matters, but there's no great rush of Reform or Conservative Jews making aliyah."

Um, guess why. The reason I have avoided Israel for so long is precisely this issue. But, you gotta go, so I'm going... and am a silly level of scared.

[Shlomo]

Noone has brought up todays Daf Yoni Bava Metzia 59B Somone who verbally wrongs a convert transgresses three prohibitions and someone who oppresses him transgresses two and then the gemorrah discusses this. Don't haredim learn Daf Yomi?

[Yonah]

Shlomo - no, they stick to Tanya.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Tonight is the Rebbe's yahrzeit (Gimmel Tammuz)

[itchiemayer]

Asa - All the best to you. I hope everything works out. As I have stated before, Torah Judaism is a beautiful thing. Sadly, we are lacking in real leadership at this time, and we are floundering a bit. Nevertheless, the earth is still spinning so I know there are true tzaddikim in the world, and true Torah lishma being learned. Torah Judaism will be fine. Some times are tougher than others. This is a point in time where we need to expose the craziness so we can return to being a light unto the nations.
Until Moshiach, we won't ever be in total agreement within the Torah Judaism world, but there have been times of greater harmony, and I am confident there will be again. I am in awe of you for making such an incredible commitment. Good luck

[Dr. Dave]

Actually it was yesterdays daf and it is one of the most well known in the talmud.

It starts by talking about the oven that was considered kosher by Rabbi Eliezer, but not Rabbi Gamliel.

All of Rabbi Eliezer's edicts of kashrut where overturned in spite of miracles in his favor. They excommunicated him. The Rabbis even shouted down a voice from heaven stating that they were in charge of the torah now, not G-d.

Rabbi Eliezer's wife (rabbi Gamliel's sister) prevented rabbi Eliezer from saying the tachanun prayer because she knew he was right and feared for her brother's life. One day she did not stop him and caught him in prayer and shouted stop you have killed my brother. Her brother indeed died that day, showing that G-d and man knew Rabbi Eliezer was right, but the "Daat Torah" people still over ruled him with their stupid chumras stating that the oven that he declared kosher was not.

The gemara then goes on to talk about not publically embarassing someone, that it is as bad as adultery or murder (and obviously worse than child molestation).

The gemara then turns to not oppressing converts mentioning that one commits 3 transgressions by verbally afflicting a convert and 2 (later amended to 3) transgressions for dunning him for money.

The Rabbi Eliezer the gadol, a real gadol, not like the katanim today states that the torah states in 36 (some say 46) separate places that we do not oppress a convert for he is likely to return to his old ways if we do so.

Why is it that the chareidi morons believe (and misinterpret) the first 2 parts (that even when wrong they should strong arm those who are right, that they shouldn't embarass someone by letting others know he is a molester - another misinterpretation of the gemara that they follow), while ignoring the part about not oppressing converts?

They are unlearned morons masquerading in long coats and fur hats!!!

[maven]

Dr Dave is right, as usual, it must be realized that this whole current conversion crisis is NOT about halacha, since the conversions being overturned are those supported by well known roshei yeshivot across Israel and done by serious righteous men like R. Druckman and R. Avi-Or.

It is all about politics and delegitimizing the Dati Leumi world in order to get a bigger share of government handouts, control of Rabbanut jobs, etc. So what if they destroy thousands of homes? As long as they get to put their kids and relatives in cushy jobs where they don't need to work too hard, etc.

[Ben]

Maven, Dr.Dave, if you proposition is right and this is just a struggle for money, then Haredim are absolutely and completely evil and criminal.

I thought that they are just racist, fanatical, totalitarian, stupid, misguided people, but not out and out evil. Are you sure of what you are implying? Do you have any proof?

[Dr. Dave]

I'm not saying that they are all evil, just that they are all morons.
Only some of them are evil.

[maven]

Ben, yes, I have been deeply involved in this situation from the beginning, and many of the Rabbis involved on the dati leumi side are personal friends and acquaintances of mine. There has obviously been a lot of discussion about this in Israel among the dati leumi world, how to reply, how some internal battles among R. Druckman's co-workers contributed to this, etc, and what it will all mean in the long run. I link to a tzomet page in Hebrew that contains correspondence from one of the parties involved (who may have in part triggered this whole situation due to internal job jostlings).

[Ben]

Maven, do you realize what it means? This means that religion instead of producing good people, produced immoral monsters.

If that is the case, then why we should believe?

[Asa]

It's quite simple, Ben. The religion, as I understand it so far, involves a constant internal struggle for self-betterment. The Torah isn't a religion as much as it is meant to be a guide to human perfection. If used merely as a manual for rituals and a document on the Chosenness of the Jewish people, then all manner of human imperfection shall inevitably creep in and breed, as with all humans. No matter how many AA meetings an alcoholic attends, no matter how many rounds of 12 Steps he or she makes, if the program is performed as a series of rituals and laws by rote, no moral/spiritual/psychological perfection can take place on any level. My understanding is that living as a Jew and the whole "light unto the nations" deal is about showing all other peoples what it means to be the height of humanity. This ain't it.

[maven]

Well, all I can say, as an observant educated person who was around too many of these scandals, Lanner, Gafni, Sobol, and now this business, is that 1. there are many more good people than bad people and 2. Aristotle was right, Plato was wrong- Knowledge does not mandate moral behaviour, there is still moral weakness regardless of how much one knows, studies, etc. You can espouse beautiful philosophy about life and be a Nazi (a la Heidegger and so many others), and you can be relatively uneducated and oppose evil, as was the case with many who sheltered Nazi victims.

[Ben]

But Torah suppose to be a different type of knowledge. Torah knowlege suppose to lead to moral life. If it does not then what is the purpose of learning it? Why don't just learn philosophy and science instead?

[Asa]

Maven, if a philosopher's beautiful philosophy on life excludes a certain race of human, it's not a beautiful philosophy, whether we're talking Heidegger or Tanya. If Chareidim are taught (as they evidently are) that shaking the hand of a gentile renders them impure, etc., blah blah blah, it follows that their action shall mirror their knowledge and beliefs. If they can't see that riots and stone-throwing are not the way to eradicate idolatry from the world, for example, they're gonna keep rioting and throwing stones. Why? Because it makes them feel good and righteous and strong and powerful. The philosophy is severely lacking. You're right, Plato was wrong. What knowledge we acquire we have to put into action, and putting theory into action is work in itself. Believe me, I know. This is not Torah, what they're doing, and they know it, but they convince themselves it is. Not Torah's fault. It's the fault of human arrogance and power-hunger and whatever else motivates. Don't get me wrong, I have my beefs with Torah, but I also know that it's not a static work. When a group of persons tries to make it static, big big problems arise.

Ben, again, it's not the fault of the learners. It's the fault of the teachers. No book, not even Torah, is immune from human beings using it to push their own agendas AND to justify their actions. We all know that. The problem is that the chareidim are very vocal, and very persuasive, and very intimidating.

You know the saying that when Moshiach comes the Torah as we know it today shall be proven to have been vanity? The teachers are screwing it up.

[Asa]

Maven, if a philosopher's beautiful philosophy excludes a race of human from access to that beautiful philosophy because of the race into which they happen to have been born, it's not a beautiful philosophy. And if the philosopher doesn't directly address in writing the races or groups he disdains, but still has written beautiful philosophies, this doesn't really mean anything. Balaam was a prophet, after all. Wagner, also a Nazi, wrote revolutionary music. Creator and creation aren't inseperable. Picasso had a handfull of women and they all ended up killing themselves, I think.

Ben, it's not Torah's fault. Not even Torah is immune from human arrogance and power-hunger. It's not the learner's fault. It's the teacher's fault. If the teachers are such that they wish to use the Torah to push and validate and justify their own agendas, they will, and they do. The Torah isn't static. When Chareidim make it static, big big problems arise.

You know that saying that when Moshiach comes the Torah as we have it now shall prove to have been vanity? Well, look for yourself. It's the teachers.

[Asa]

Maven, if a philosopher's beautiful philosophy excludes a race of human from access to that beautiful philosophy because of the race into which they happen to have been born, it's not a beautiful philosophy. And if the philosopher doesn't directly address in writing the races or groups he disdains, but still has written beautiful philosophies, this doesn't really mean anything. Balaam was a prophet, after all. Wagner, also a Nazi, wrote revolutionary music. Creator and creation aren't inseperable. Picasso had a handfull of women and they all ended up killing themselves, I think.

Ben, it's not Torah's fault. Not even Torah is immune from human arrogance and power-hunger. It's not the learner's fault. It's the teacher's fault. If the teachers are such that they wish to use the Torah to push and validate and justify their own agendas, they will, and they do. The Torah isn't static. When Chareidim make it static, big big problems arise.

You know that saying that when Moshiach comes the Torah as we have it now shall prove to have been vanity? Well, look for yourself. It's the teachers.

[Asa]

Oh, shit, sorry for the repeats folks, don't know what happened. Shmarya, can they be deleted?

[maven]

Asa, that's what I'm saying. Knowledge does not mandate action, people know that smoking causes cancer but smoke anyway, moral weakness is not an intellectual issue. Chazal themselves warn against "Torah shelo lishma" and against using it as a "spade to dig with" recognizing that teachings alone (or faith, if you want to really get into it with Protestants) are not enough to change a person.

[Asa]

Then I wonder what is enough to change a person, or, in this case, groups of persons.

[Shlomo]

This element of "gadolim" striving for power troubles me deeply. Not accommadating other religious peoples views was what resulted in the death of Rabbis Akivas students. From what I gather from the Rav soloveitchik, (and Chasidut) Halacha and the jewish religion is different from Christianity in that it is not about reaching the heavens yourself but doing good in this world thinking of others etc
In response to Yonah I try to learn Daf Yomi and Tanya everyday

[Yonah]

Shlomo, yasher koach, that's a heavy load, no?

I've heard some Chassidic people say they don't study Talmud regularly at all, because they have a daily portion of Tanya instead.

[Proton Soup]

"But Torah suppose to be a different type of knowledge. Torah knowlege suppose to lead to moral life. If it does not then what is the purpose of learning it? Why don't just learn philosophy and science instead?"

the Devil himself knows the Word