A Haredi 'History' Lesson

"We are not in the Middle Ages, when wearing pronounced Jewish symbols was prohibited…"

Haredim take on anti-fur bill
Ultra-Orthodox MKs worried bill aimed at banning importation of animal fur into Israel will gravely affect shtreimel trade
Kobi Nahshoni, Ynet

A bill meant to protect animals from abuse and cruelty that was passed at the Ministerial Legislation Committee on Monday has outraged ultra-Orthodox Knesset members who fear it could severely affect the local shtreimel market.

According to the motion to amend the Cruelty to Animals law, which was submitted by Kadima MK Ronit Tirosh, the importation from East Asia (and mainly China) of fur or textile products made out of the hair of dogs, cats or rabbits will be banned and punishable by a one-year prison sentence.

Tirosh wrote that about 2 million animals are slaughtered each year for the sole purpose of skinning them for their fur and they sometimes get skinned alive. "We as a society must try and prevent this unnecessary murder," the motion stated.

Agriculture Minister Shalom Simhon, whose office is in charge of implementing the law, even recommended expanding the bill to include fur of wild and domesticated animals from around the world.

'We're not in the Middle Ages anymore'
The ultra-Orthodox factions are worried that such legislation could put an end to the selling of shtreimels – the traditional Hasidic fur hats worn by haredim, in Israel.

At a coalition administration meeting held Monday MK Menachem Eliezer Moses (United Torah Judaism) said that "it would be unthinkable to support a bill that forbids the import of products for such important, clearly religious purposes.

 
"We are not in the Middle Ages, when wearing pronounced Jewish symbols was prohibited, and I call on Tirosh and the Ministerial Committee to grant my request and amend the bill accordingly."

Moses stressed that he supports the bill in principle, but wants to introduce one exception to the law, allowing the import of fur for religious use into the country.

Earth to MK Moses: Wearing distinctly Jewish clothing was often mandated by non-Jewish governments to prevent Jews from mixing freely with non-Jews.

The ridiculous fur hat you wear came about because your ancestors were not allowed to dress like the nobility of the country they lived in. So they adopted the dress of nobility from neighboring countries

A shreimel has no holiness and it is not native Jewish dress any more than a black fedora is. It is simply the preferred head-covering of a small number of geographically isolated Jews living in a cold climate during a small sliver of time.

Moses did not wear a shreimel. Neither did King David or Elijah the Prophet or Ezra or any of the Sages of the Mishna and Talmud. And neither did the Geonim. Sefardim didn't wear them. Neither did many Ashkenazim.

You think it's holy because 150 years ago a rebbe wore one, and for haredim like you time (and most halakhic thought) stops with the founder of your particular sect.

You want to wear a fur hat in 90º Jerusalem weather? Fine. Just do not expect the rest of us to call you holy or sane for doing so.

Comments

[Yonah]

"We're not in the Middle Ages anymore." That was probably the funniest thing I've ever heard an ultra-Orthodox rabbi say. Not because they're so medieval (in a way, if only... man, bring back Rabbeinu Tam) but since when has "we live in the modern world now" ever been an argument by them?

[Michael Makovi]

Wearing fur was justified in cold climes during pre-modern times, for human survival. Foi gras was also legitimate, because it was the only accessible source - for Jews - for many nutrients.

But neither is true anymore. And so tza'ar ba'alei hayim is operative. Shtreimels are clearly forbidden d'oraita, and I'm not being bombastic.

[MisterApikoros]

There's only one thing I hate more than a religious zealot, and that's an animal rights extremist.

On the other hand, I love cats and dogs, have them as pets, and support this minister's proposal (except for rabbits, about which I have the same feelings as Elmer Fudd). Therefore, may I present this modest proposal:

Let's skin the leadership of PETA alive, and manufacture streimels out of the skins. There won't be much if any fur, but since PETA wants to ban all fur, that would be a good thing.

[Ben]

I assume that statement "We are not in the Middle Ages anymore" meant to demonstrate strong support for Modernity. Congratulation to haredi MK Menachem Eliezer Moses for this truly revolutionary notion.

The only question remains in my mind is - Why do you guys want all of us to go back to the Middle Ages, where it is clear, even you yourself don't want to live?

[Hometown Postville]

Fake fur keeps one as warm as the real thing. Must be the status more than the practicality they're protesting.

[Yochanan Lavie]

In the Middle Ages, we had Saadia, Maimonides, Halevi, and other [comparatively] open-minded philosophers. Too bad they're not in the Middle Ages, but are cynical post-Modernists of a different stripe.

[maya]

I'm thinking of organising a march of naked women through meah she'arim to protest the use of fur...come on sisters! whose prepared to join me?

[The Monsey Tzadik]

A shreimel has no holiness and it is not native Jewish dress any more than a black fedora is.

Not true, I once saw a cartoon in the Jewish Press where avaraham avinu had a shtreimel

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yids of the Round Shtreimel (apologies: Monty Python):

We're Yids of the Round Shtreimel,
We dance in Medieval Time-el ,
We do protests with strange requests
Without reason or rhyme-el.
We dine well here in Yerushalayim,
We eat Rubashkins all the time.

We're Yids of the Round Shtreimel,
Our songs are out in vinyl,
But many times, Lavie's rhymes
Are quite unfathomable.
We're barking mad in Jerusalem,
The politicians are in cahoots with 'em.

On streets we're tough and able,
Quite indefatigable,
Between our riots we're very quiet,
And wear hats made out of sable.
It's a busy life in the Holy City,
We make life quality very shitty.

[yidandahalf]

Mister Apikoros, I do not believe you would again share these sentiments with us if you watched any of the undercover videos of animals being slaughtered for the fur industry. I recommend you watch them. Stella McCartney's is particularly gruesome and as human beings we owe it to ourselves to be made aware of the truth, even if one has no pity for the animals.
But in any case, PETA will win the war against the fur industry totally. And probably sooner rather than later.

[DK]

They should invent a hat made out of rat fur. Have a couple of big rebbes wear them around town, and within a generation or two, insist that these rat-hats were the shabbos/yontiff head covering of choice of the Chassidism since time immemorial.

This way, animal rights people would lay off the persecuted ones, since few care about rats, and the Chassidim would finally have a fitting and economical head covering.

[MalachHamovies]

Earth to MK Moses: Wearing distinctly Jewish clothing was often mandated by non-Jewish governments to prevent Jews from mixing freely with non-Jews.

The ridiculous fur hat you wear came about because your ancestors were not allowed to dress like the nobility of the country they lived in. So they adopted the dress of nobility from neighboring countries

A shreimel has no holiness and it is not native Jewish dress any more than a black fedora is. It is simply the preferred head-covering of a small number of geographically isolated Jews living in a cold climate during a small sliver of time.

Moses did not wear a shreimel. Neither did King David or Elijah the Prophet or Ezra or any of the Sages of the Mishna and Talmud. And neither did the Geonim. Sefardim didn't wear them. Neither did many Ashkenazim.

You think it's holy because 150 years ago a rebbe wore one, and for haredim like you time (and most halakhic thought) stops with the founder of your particular sect.

You want to wear a fur hat in 90º Jerusalem weather? Fine. Just do not expect the rest of us to call you holy or sane for doing so.

The way they make a shtreimel is by chopping the head off a live mink. Someone in the shtreimel business mentioned this item to me. Also,keeping minks in tiny cages forces them at times to chew off their own foot in their desperation to escape !! I guess wearing a treif dead animal on their heads in more important then Tzaar Baalei Chaim (which i guess is now a mitzvah for the very modern orthodox And if you are a liberal).

This is the way of chareidim and chassidim !!

To espouse a life of simplicity and modesty while spending fortunes on outerwear.

A Choson shtreimel costs over $2,000. Then they need a "rain shtreimel". Not including all of the idiot expensive gifts that the poor jewish parents HAVE to spend on the choson and kallah. Then the hat for the weekdays. Then the hats (weekday and shabbos hats) for the 6-7 boys in the family. This last sentence is referring to yeshivash families as well.

Not counting dry cleaning for all suits, special cleaning for shirts etc.

Simplicity ??? Modesty??? Unless the family is extremely wealthy, the charedei lifestyle will financially enslave families for the rest of their lives.

[MisterApikoros]

PETA can go fuck itself.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dry cleaning for suits and shirts? The only thing they launder is money. [rim shot!]

MH, excellent post at 11:29.

PETA does have an awful lot of over-the-top extremist baggage, but I salute their work on the Agriprocessors issue, kapporos, needless 'medical' research to 'prove' what's already been proven, and yes, the fur industry. Faux fur, wool, and synthetic fabrics can keep you just as warm, dry, and fashionable.
I certainly object to PETA's harassment of people who wear fur, as well as their harassment of retail mom-and-pop fur shops, but I agree with yidandahalf above at 11:12.

[MalachHamovies]

WSC,

Thanks ! People have to know that the in the lifestyle of charedim and chassidim tzaar baal hachaim issues are being thrown out (kapporos is a great example, ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS ANOTHER OPTION LIKE DOING IT WITH MONEY) And the "simplicity" concept that they eschew is a total fraud.

You MUST spend tons of money for things that have ZERO to do with religion.

[MisterApikoros]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Thus PETA was correct about Agriprocessors, although the real issue was mistreatment of humans, not cows. PETA didn't give a crap about the humans who Rubashkin exploited, just the cows.

If PETA ever confronted my girlfriend and myself, there'd be blood on the street, and it wouldn't be hers or mine.

[alternative childcare]

YL: wouldn't the simpler "we dance in times medieval" have been the better rhyme? Just asking, trying to get an insight into the artist, etc :)

[MisterApikoros]

Slaughtering animals to make fur coats and shoes is no more barbaric than slaughtering animals for meat, or for that matter, catching fish. We are at the top of the food chain, although Mr. G. W. Sharkey may beg to differ.

What is barbaric is swinging a live chicken over one's head to "transfer" ones sins to the chicken, or slaughtering a cow by letting it bleed out when there are humane ways to do it.

[R]

they don't kill cows to only make shoes. They kill cows to eat them and at the same time use the skin to make leather shoes. Nothing wrong with that. When you kill animals on mass production simply for their skin then it is pure cruelty and serves only vanity and that is a sin.

[C-Girl]

MisterA- True- a dead animal is a dead animal, but there really is more than one way to skin a cat- or a cow or a mink.

There is (supposedly) federal oversight in meat slaughterhouses to try to maintain humane practices (okay, stop laughing...), while fur producers can operate the same way as illegal puppy mills- under the radar with no oversight. I'm not a card-carrying PETA member by any means, but I do believe that providing financial incentives for barbaric abuse is disgusting and anyone who knowingly buys products made by morally and ethically horrible people should be held accountable, no matter how nice the coat.

[mordecai]

Why is the tire covered with fur?

[C-Girl]

It's actually a big fur-covered bagel. Because this is Torah Judaism, not furry monster truck racing.

[MisterApikoros]

You can humanely slaughter animals, whether the ultimate purpose is to make hamburgers and steaks or to make mink coats. Or rabbit coats.

On that score, I'd agree with the animal rights activists here.

I am a hunter (bow and arrow and shotgun). We have a gross overpopulation of deer in NJ, and the result is too many are killed by cars and trucks. I'd rather shoot them than see them die from death by BMW. Every dead deer is one that won't run into my car.

[Jackie]

For the person who asked, cutting a vein with a razor sharp knife is supposed to be a painless way to kill an animal. The ancient Egyptians used it as a method of animal sacrifice.

[A. Nuran]

Would someone explain to me why the frummies wear dead treif animals on their heads? They probably consume more treif from inhaling broken off hairs than a lifetime worth of asparagus and strawberries.

[Medical Researcher]

Needless 'medical' research to 'prove' what's already been proven

Wool Silk Cotton,

I think these matters are above of your level of education and culture. So you don't know what you are speaking about. Even for novel and necessary drug research extremely difficult to get grants and funding, so how do you think (if you can think and know what's to think) somebody can perform unnecessary research?

So if you want to use Grandma natural therapies your right. But the human beings need the modern medications and we are working hard for mankind. PETA, ALF (their European twin) and people like you not differ from Inquisition in attempts to stop our research. But there are not Middle Ages now! So if somebody will be burned alive again it will be not us. We will do everything to protect our sacred right for research, knowledge and benefiting the human race!

[yidandahalf]

Mister Apikoros, I live amongst many a hunter and have had many a debate with them about Peta. You should know that Peta does very little if anything against hunting nowadays. They do not harass hunters any longer to the best of my knowledge. That sort of thing is done by other groups apart from Peta. Peta is concerned mainly with factory farmed animals, ie the meat and fur industries. There are actually good old hunters who belong to Peta, believe it or not. IMHO a strong and healthy dialogue is needed between the two; at this point in time it is merely a "communication breakdown". It is unfortunate that Peta is still perceived as the enemy of hunters. I understand their rhetoric can get to one at times, but they get the job done.

Medical Researcher, There is certainly alot of research done on animals which is redundant, unnecessary, and unproductive. No doubt not by you or your immediate collegues; however, you ought to admit it occurs. Of course it is easier to get the grants, the funding and all the good stuff that goes along with it, right? A compelling project can get one well on the path to go far, let us be honest. I recommend a good read "Hitler's Scientists", although this book does not fully investigate the liberal funding available, not to mention a cushy lab avec toutes les accoutrements in say, Auschwitz, to just about any doctor or scientist if he or she came up with an idea interesting to the Nazis.
On the other hand incalculable good has come of your research with animals. But there is a part of it which should not be taking place.

[MisterApikoros]

We have in Northern New Jersey, very close to where I live with my family, a surfeit of bears. These bears are dangerous, to kids, to adults, and to pets.

We were supposed to resume bear hunting (on a limited scale) in 2005. But the animal rights extremists, including PETA, lobbied the NJ legislature and won. Since then the bear population skyrocketed, and on many occasions one reads about confrontations between man and bruin, or more commonly, dog and bruin. The animal rights extremists blame it on people using non-bear-proof garbage cans, or make the asinine argument "the bears were here first."

If a bear were to climb up on MY deck, and start menacing my golden retriever or myself and family, I'll take out my semi-automatic 30-06 which one cannot legally hunt with in the Garden State, and bang! One less bruin. Let the Fish and Wildlife clowns try to prosecute me.

As for medical research, you and I are alive today because of animal-based pharmalogical research.

[Yochanan Lavie]

AC: Good rhyme!

[Clear]

There's only one thing I hate more than a religious zealot, and that's an animal rights extremist.

On the other hand, I love cats and dogs, have them as pets, and support this minister's proposal (except for rabbits, about which I have the same feelings as Elmer Fudd). Therefore, may I present this modest proposal:

Let's skin the leadership of PETA alive, and manufacture streimels out of the skins. There won't be much if any fur, but since PETA wants to ban all fur, that would be a good thing.

Where do animal rights extremists come in here? Trying to stop a trade in which animals are skinned alive is "extremist"?

You support this legislation, and this has been proposed by the Israeli government. So, why bring PETA into it?

What does PETA have to do with this? How is it relevant that PETA wants to ban all fur? What has one to do with the other? Just because PETA might like this legislation? They also want to oppose animal abuse. So, does that mean when the police arrest some jerk for running a dog fighting ring or beating a pet to death that, since the police are doing something that PETA might like that you'll have to vent your anger against PETA?

I'm very skeptical about PETA, myself. For one thing, I think they say a lot of stupid things that end up detracting from some of their goals and it makes them look like laughing stocks. They've done their share to annoy me. (And I saw the Penn and Teller episode about them.) But, I don't get why you're bothering to bring them up here.

And as for religious zealots vs animal rights extremists: Animal rights exremists will NEVER get meat eating, hunting, fishing, animal breeding, animal farming, pet sales, etc. banned. Never.

Religious zealots, on the other hand, they very well could get into the right places in government and gain enough control to push their agendae, get whatever they want banned or restricted, etc.

If you want to hate them both, fine - but it's the religious zealot who has the real chance of taking control of your life and freedoms.

One group might throw paint on someone's fur coat. The other group might shred our Constitution.

[yidandahalf]

Very interesting post, Clear. Well informed and logical.

[alternative childcare]

Clear, it was "MrApikoris", who consistently uses nazi language, references to the SS, and makes violent statements, how he's getting ready to kill people all the time, or beat up chassidim, and similar threats over and over again. He first brought in PETA with a comment about skinning them alive.

I wonder if he doesn't need to be reported to the authorities as another potential Van Brunn.

[alternative childcare]

Especially now that he's revealed that he has illegal weapons.

[MisterApikoros]

They're not illegal to own, asshole. They're illegal to use for hunting in the State of NJ. I have a gun permit.

And if you can't get a joke, and a reference to Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal," you're a complete and total fucking asshole.

[alternative childcare]

I don't know what a "reference" to Swift in terms of skinning PETA people alive had to do with anything being discussed here, but in terms of virtually every single one of your postings was certainly disturbing.
Is that "joke" also the source of your frequent Nazi references (recently you felt obligated to spell out the full German for SS) and stories of beating up religious Jews? Or was that some joking reference to Malthus that I don't get?

Overall, upon review of your posts here, I think you are probably a dangerous individual, certainly an offensive one, and I wouldn't be surprised to read about you in the newspapers when you finally go postal.

[MisterApikoros]

What I can't stand are people who try to impose their views on others. Some are Haredi fascists. Others are Islamofascists. Others are PETA animal rights crazies. All are equally excreable in my book.

You, putz, are one of them. What the hell are you doing, checking everything I write, then threatening me with "arrest" because I own a legal gun?

Let me clue you: It is illegal to hunt deer with a rifle in New Jersey. The reason is that deer live in populated areas, and a rifle round travels far, up to a mile or more. If there ever is a bear hunt, one would be obligated to use a rifle. Fortunately, bear for the most part live in the far northern part of the state, where there are few people.

Now, idiot, Jonathan Swift. His "modest proposal" was to cure famine by eating people, and it was a joke, very similar to my comment about skinning PETA members to make streimels. But a humorless idiot such as yourself wouldn't understand that.

You don't like my spelling out the full-name of the SS. It's Schutzstaffel. It means "Security Staff," and is kind of a euphemism for what the Schutzstaffel actually was.

I suggest you contact the GeheimeStaatsPolizei (GESTAPO) if you don't like my German.

As for you, Yiddish will do just fine: Gai kocken affen Yam.

[alternative childcare]

And what about beating up the religious Jewish guy?

[tzig]

If it bothers fuck-ups like you it's worth it!

[MisterApikoros]

As you may recall, he grabbed a ham sandwich from out of my mouth, and stomped on it. This was 25 years ago, at a large publicly owned company which you have undoubtedly heard of. Yeah, I kicked his butt, and he weighed about 275 to my 160. It's called self-defense, in case you didn't know.

He was fired; I was promoted (not for that, obviously).

If some Haredi idiot started throwing stones at me because I "desecrated" his sabbath by driving, he'd be in for a hell of a fight. From 60-year-old me. It seems that's what those Ortho-Nazis do in Israel. Same with the PETA crazies who break into laboratories and kill animals.

My mother was a molecular biologist. She was able to transplant mouse melanoma, then treat it with what are now commonly-used chemotherapy agents. Yeah, they were tested on rats and mice, not by computer simulations. Thanks to her research, the death rate for melanoma is much lower today than it was.

The purpose of this blog is to sound off against intolerance. Intolerance is just that, whether its from some politically-correct jerk like yourself, some haredi frumbag, or some Islamofascist. It is quite ironic than another schmuck didn't like my use of the term "Islamofascist" when referring to Ahmadinejad, then proceeded in the same post to call President Bush Chimpy Mcfuckwad. Just shows what a bunch of hypocrites the politically correct are.

[yidandahalf]

MisterA.
Are you sure Geheim has a final e? Please correct me if I am wrong. But the thing is, I did not say research involving animals should not and should never have been done. I was trying to say alot of it is and was unproductive and unecessary. Your mother would most likely have concurred. The stain of corruption spreads everywhere, even unto the research community. It is much easier to get funding if something can be "practically" examined and therefore has the possiblility of being proven much quicker. This is just common sense.

[MisterApikoros]

To answer your question, 3/2, I have two cats and a Golden Retriever. One of the cats was a bit under the weather this morning so we rushed him to the vet. He was OK, just an ear infection which was painful. The moral of the story is my pets get better medical care than I do.

What you and I would certainly concur on is the kidnapping of dogs and cats, and selling them to unscrupulous labs. We, as animal lovers, would also be appalled at cockfights, dogfights, AND bullfights, although in the latter case, sometimes the bull wins.

To answer your other question, yes, "Geheime" when used as an adjective has an "e" at the end. When used as a noun (meaning secret) it may or may not, depending upon the context of the sentence.

[MisterApikoros]

"One group might throw paint on one's fur coat. The other might try to shred the Constitution."

Here's the difference between the two: If one threw red paint at my girlfriend's fur coat, he'd be in for a fistfight. If one tried to shred the Constitution, he'd be in for a gunfight.

[alternative childcare]

How interesting, I do those same experiments.However, I am unaware that the death rate from metastatic melanoma is one tad less than it was years ago.

And yes, I have noted the violent and offensive nature of your postings across time. They usually run either that this or that defends the nazi persecution of the Jews or that someone ought to be killed or tortured in some way.

[MisterApikoros]

I have never, ever, defended Nazi persecution of the Jews. You are one excreable fucking liar, and if I ever find out just who you are, you piece of shit, I'm gonna practice upon you the classic Jewish martial art: I SU.

And just for your information, fucktard, the death rate from melanoma is a lot lower than it once was. Possibly because chemo prevents many cases from metastasizing.

[MisterApikoros]

Alternative Childcare: Since you've been paying such close attention to my postings, I demand you post right here where I defended the Nazis. Put up or shut up. Right here, right now.

Make my day.

[alternative childcare]

I've got a page full of them, I keep trying to post them but it doesn't seem to go through. Here's a few I recall, though:

This video would have made a wonderful recruiting tool for the SchutzStaffel.
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 07, 2009 at 03:19 AM

… Charedi vermin …
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 07, 2009 at 05:20 AM

…Critical_Minyan said the frumbags aren't Jews; I'll go one step further -- they aren't humans.
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 07, 2009 at 06:15 PM

You can call me an anti-Semite if you like, but be advised that if you say it to my face, I bite. I have a bigger collection of ears than Mike Tyson…
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 11, 2009 at 08:15 PM

[alternative childcare]

This one nicely points out your obsessive fixation on things Nazi:

OK, here's what I propose for "Rabbi" Manis Friedman and his followers:
1. Go to ThirdReich.com, and pick out a genuine replica Nazi SchutzStaffel uniform, complete with jackboots, swastika armband and Luger sidearm. (Some of Friedman's followers might have to custom-order these uniforms; the off-the-rack ones might be a size or three too small for some of these guys).
2. Lose the pais and the beards; they don't go well with the armband. Same applies for the tzitzas.
3. Learn to sing the old Nazi favorites. Top of the hit parade, of course, would be the Horst Wessel Lied (Die Fahne Hoch). Other stirring marches would include Deutscheland Erwache (Germany Awake) and the Adolf Hitler Marschlied (no translation necessary). Get those umlauts right; practice makes perfect.
4. Next November 8th, do exactly what the blessed "rebbe" commands. Let's make this a Kristallnacht for the ages! As for the cattle, transport 'em to Agriprocessors. By that time, the assembly lines should have been repaired. Nothing celebrating afterward with a glatt kosher feast!
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 02, 2009 at 09:21 AM

[alternative childcare]

And, just for the record:

Melanoma, diagnosed and treated at its earliest stages, can be successfully cured by surgery alone. However, when metastatic beyond the regional nodes, it is almost uniformly deadly. Adjuvant therapy targeted toward the treatment of microscopic residual disease after surgical resection is the subject of intense scientific investigation because this is the stage at which it is possible to have the greatest impact on disease-free and overall survival. However, standard therapies commonly used for other solid tumors have had disappointing results in the treatment of melanoma in the adjuvant setting.(Curr Treat Options Oncol. 2003 Jun;4(3):187-99.)

[alternative childcare]

And it isn't just me:

Some of these charedi motherfuckers …
Posted by: MisterApikoros | June 03, 2009 at 07:44 PM

How graceful of Mister Apikoros who can't get his "points" across without speaking like a debauched sailor.
Posted by: Robert W. Welch Jr. | June 03, 2009 at 07:49 PM

[MisterApikoros]

Let me ask you a question, motherfucker:

Why are you bothering to keep a dossier on me? BTW, asshole, Robert W. Welch Jr. is Archie Bunker, as I suspect you are as well.

Of course, putz, you're quoting me out of context, and any fool can see that.

--The video I said would have made a wonderful recruiting tool for the Schutzstaffel was a video of haredi Jews rioting over a parking lot. And it would make a wonderful recruiting tool for the SS, if there are any left.

-- Those chareidi who try to dictate how other Jews live ARE vermin. They act just like the Taliban.

-- The frumbags (and "frumbag" is a word I coined to denote Jews who act like Talibanistas; I'm sure I'm not the first) don't deserve to be called Jews -- or humans. I stand by that.

-- Calling me, a Jew, an anti-Semite is a "fighting word" as defined by a 1943 Supreme Court decision, and if I kicked your ass because you said it to my face, you'd have absolutely no leg to stand on, legally. You probably wouldn't be standing, but that's another matter.

As far as Manis Friedman goes, he was the Chabadnik who said that all Arabs should be killed, along with their children and pets. In short, he was speaking just like Herr Hitler and Herr Goebbels and Herr Alfred Rosenberg and Herr Julius Streicher (publisher of Der Sturmer, the Nazi newspaper), if one substitutes the world "Jew" for "Arab" or "Muslim." Yes, your beloved rabbi was talking just like a Nazi. I guess you agree with him, or else you wouldn't be using this as "proof" that I'm a Nazi myself. BTW, the Chabad community completely disavowed Friedman's remarks. And Jewish Nazis like Friedman ought to learn all the Nazi songs.

In conclusion, as anyone with 1/4 of a brain can see, I was being sarcastic, which I guess went way over your pin head.

That "dossier" is gonna land your ass in court.

[MisterApikoros]

What are you, some fucking lab assistant? You insulted my mother, who was a world-class molecular biologist.

I guess chemo is useless in cases of malignant melanoma, which is why nobody ever bothers to use it. NOT.

[alternative childcare]

No, sir. I didn't insult your mother, I simply quoted the literature off of pubmed, the NIH medical resource. Feel free to demonstrate your medical knowledge of current treatment in melanoma, which i'm sure is as extensive as your knowledge of Nazi related trivia and swearwords.

[alternative childcare]

I was unaware that one can sue someone for being an avid reader of a frequent blogger. Nor did I refer to you as an antisemite, I just find that you use foul nazi-like language (vermin, etc) about Jews, and seem to have an obsession for Nazi language, info, etc. The line about being an anti-semite was your own self referential statement. And I believe it is fair to say that when you state that some Jewish action legitimates or supports the Nazi death squads, well, had some imam said that there would be legal action. So I doubt you'd get very far with legal action. As far as your kicking my a--, that might be fun, though from your general comments, I might be justified in taking out a restraining order on you. You certainly sound violent and aggressive.

[Asa]

Mr. A, chill out. It's not worth it. Alternative Childcare, what's your problem? The list of quotes you posted is lame. Which one of them supports the mad and ridiculous assertion that Mr. A is a Nazi sympathizer?

[MisterApikoros]

You're right, Asa. Some coward like Alternative Childcare, who would be deathly afraid to use his real name because of the certainty he'd be sued for defamation, isn't worth my time nor anyone elses.

I don't understand what this guy's problem is that he has to keep a "dossier" on a blogger. Sure, I'm pretty blunt and outspoken, but this clown was never the target of any of my posts.

[alternative childcare]

Oh, here's another use of a Nazi epithet for Jews by Mr. A. Its a repeat pattern, of citing Nazi language over and over again. Its offensive:

Maybe they can call it Schweinehund Flu, after the Haredi dogs in the Knesset and elsewhere.

Posted by: MisterApikoros | April 27, 2009 at 05:11 PM

[MisterApikoros]

"Schweinehund" is no more "Nazi language" than "mein Liebchen." Both expressions predate and postdate the Third Reich.

Only one of those terms describes you, AC. Can you guess which one?

[alternative childcare]

Is Mister Apikoros your actual name? I don't see myself being a coward, I am sick of all your nasty language and use of Nazi terminology and epithets and am standing up to it. Even when you threaten me with lawsuits and physical violence. Its my right to do so, much as you feel it is your right to call Jews "vermin", "not human" etc, as cited above.

[Asa]

Oh, give up the ghost, AC. Why is it you single out Mr. A for foul or offensive language but neglect to censure the posts of Bunker and others? I find your finger-pointing a tad hypocritical. Maybe if you read the posts on this site for their substance rather than skim for Nazi language you could write more substantial posts.

Now, let's all play nice and stick to the subject.

[alternative childcare]

OK, Asa, since you asked so nicely I'll give it up. But I'm not the only who has called MrA on this language.

For the record, I have gone after Archie for his racism, far more vehemently.

MrA: As a native German speaker, I can only hope its not the "mein Leibchen". :)

With regards to the epithet Schweinhund, we can take the Nazis at their own words: "In October 1942 a group of Gestapo officers under Alois Brunner's command, arrived in Berlin, apparently to sharpen local Gestapo tacticsor as Brunner put it, to show "those damn Prussian pigs how to handle schweinhund Jews."

Or from an oral testimony from 1936: As our train passed through Germany, I saw several large banners, "Juden und Schweinhund Verboten."

[Asa]

I stand corrected. I withdraw the "hypocrite" comment. My point is that you have a right to find a poster's manner of expression offensive to your sensibilities; however, fanning the flames by hammering relentlessly on the language of one poster (which you haven't yet backed off of) has proven ineffective, no?

Mr. A has never referred to Jews in general as "vermin" and "not human". He's offended by the behaviors of hyper-religious charedim. Pretty significant distinction.

[MisterApikoros]

If you were truly a native German speaker, you'd know that "Schweinehund" is not a "Nazi word," and you'd certainly know the proper spelling of it, as you would know that when an adjective modifies a noun, you place an "e" at the end of the adjective. You'd also know how to form the plural, as in "Juden und Schweinehunde verboten." Your German is about as good as my Mandarin.

Plus, if you've really gone after AB's racism, you wouldn't have used a quote from him as "evidence" of mine. Archie Bunker uses a variety of pseudonyms, one of which is Robert W. Welch, Jr., the founder of the John Birch Society.

There was an occasional poster named "Alternative Childcare" who seems like a reasonable person. I suspect you stole that poster's identity, Arch.

I personally have nothing against the ultra-Orthodox. My grandfather was very religious. He went to shul twice and sometimes thrice daily until the day he died, at 87 years. However, my grandfather, whose name I carry, never imposed his religion on his four children, nor his 11 grandchildren, five of whom married Christians. My problem lies with those Jews who regard Jews who marry outside the faith as pariahs, not all of whom are Orthodox, and one well-known example of which is an atheist. It is they who'd reimpose the Nuremberg laws of 1935.

[alternative childcare]

I actually usually am a rational person, and I'm going to stop with this now.
The examples I gave were direct citations from the literature, copied and pasted, with no interference from me.

Asa: I don't care who one is referring to, use of such language when combined with all the other Nazi lingo gets me worked up. I don't refer to Arabs or anyone as "vermin" or "subhuman", so I don't see why I have to hear Jews (or anyone) described that way, no matter what their religious views.
'nuff said.

[MisterApikoros]

You know what, AC? In the future, when some Haredi (or other Jew) acts like a Nazi, I'm going to ridicule them the same way that I've been doing.

And if it offends you, find another blog.

'Nuff said.

[yidandahalf]

Apikoros, You watch too much television. Your mind is on the wrong stuff. Surely your health will suffer. Or you could move out west somewhere where there is a strong militia culture you could enter into. There one could find lots of agressive and wild animals to shoot without worry of law enforcement or animal rights wackos. And since there are many remnants of Aryan types, you could practice your Deutsch too. What are you waiting for? It's a win win situation for a fellow like you. Abandon the kugel once for all and take up a nice schnitzel. I have it from a very reliable source, lederhosen are to be found in just about any flea market or thrift store as well. As I say, you can't lose.

[MisterApikoros]

I love a good schnitzel. Spaetzel, too. I can cook up a mean rouladen, which I learned how to make from my Schwabisch Deutsch wife, who being unfortunately deceased (of leukemia, no, I didn't kill her), is watching from the heavens just to make sure I do it right. If rouladen ain't your thing, I make terrific steaks on my Weber grill. I prefer non-kosher cuts such as NY strip but if you come visit some time, I can certainly accomodate you with a kosher (or Halal) variety.

Newsflash: Aryans don't wear lederhosen, except in the movies.

Second Newsflash: One need not move out west to find aggressive, wild animals. Not too far from your 'hood, in places like Bed-Stuy and East New York, you'll find plenty of aggressive, wild animals of the canine variety. They're called pit bulls. Even I'm scared of them.

[reuven sabel]

i wear a shtraimel and i own many old shtraimels. if i ever buy a new shtraimel i would want to know that the fur that the shtraimel is made of is from animals that are killed in a humane manner before they are skinned and certainly not skinned before they are killed.
i think that rabbis should decide how animals used for shtraimel making should be killed and should give a heksher to the killing process and to the fur that comes from this more humane process and to the shtraimel makers who use only this approved fur.
the reason that we wear a shtraimel made from the fur of non-kosher animals is because if we were to eat these non-kosher animals they would lower our spiritual level. since these animals have a spiritual need to be spiritually elevated we wear their fur to elevate them instead of eating them. we can only elevate by eating kosher animals that are slautered, inspected and butchered in the kosher manner.
we rabbis can change the fur industry or at least part of it by demanding that animals be killed in a humane manner before being skinned and that the meat of animals killed for their fur be eaten by either goyim or animals instead of left to rot.

[Jerry]

on many aspects frumakes behaviour is similar to islamics behaviour, no doubt about that

only, Israel or the US isn´t Iran, Afghanistan or Gaza, so their mess is limited