YU Chancellor: Reform and Conservative Judaism Dead

Haredim and Modern Orthodox will control Judaism in the near future.

Non-Orthodox Judaism disappearing
Matthew Wagner , THE JERUSALEM POST

The Reform and Conservative Movements are disappearing, Yeshiva University Chancellor Rabbi Norman Lamm said over the weekend.

"With a heavy heart we will soon say kaddish on the Reform and Conservative Movements," said Lamm, head of the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, in an interview with The Jerusalem Post.

"The Conservatives are in a mood of despondency and pessimism. They are closing schools and in general shrinking," he said.

"The Reform Movement may show a rise, because if you add goyim to Jews then you will do OK," added Lamm, referring to the Reform Movement's policy, starting in 1983, of recognizing patrilineal descent.

The National Jewish Population Survey of 2001 found that of the 46 percent of US Jewish households belonging to a synagogue, 33% were affiliated with a Conservative synagogue, a 10% fall from the 1990 survey. In contrast, the Reform Movement was up from 35% to 38% and Orthodox Jews rose from 16% to 22%. Two percent were affiliated with the Reconstructionist Movement and 5% with "other types" of synagogues.

Sociologists familiar with US Jewry believe that similar trends continue.

"Reform is out of the picture, because they never got into the picture, and the Conservatives are getting out of the picture," Lamm said.

"The future of American Jewry is in the hands of haredim and the modern Orthodox. We have to find ways of working together."

He supports outreach to Reform and Conservative Jews, "but not by watering down what we believe and not by demonizing them either."

Lamm, born in Brooklyn in 1927, was appointed president of YU in 1976 and managed to save the flagship institute of American Modern Orthodoxy from financial demise.

A disciple of Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik, Lamm is considered a representative of "centrist" Modern Orthodoxy, which positions itself between the more "left-wing" elements of Orthodoxy such as Yeshivat Chovevei Torah and the more "right-wing" haredim voices of American Orthodoxy.

He is in Israel to receive an honorary doctorate from Bar-Ilan University on Tuesday.

The same day, Lamm will take part in a panel at the university on "The Religious Experience of Social Action" with a Catholic priest and a Suffi religious leader.

Regarding Pope Benedict XVI's visit in Israel, Lamm said he doubted much would come out of it.

"The pope is an intellectual and as such there is a subtext to his behavior," he said. "His interests are primarily theological. Nothing of great consequence could come of the visit. He is not that kind of person."

Lamm said the pope's emphasis on intellectual matters and his lack of interest in political issues led to an imbroglio with Jewish leadership.

Last January the pope reinstated several rebel bishops who had been banned from the Church for their conservative opinions. One of the bishops was Richard Williamson, a known Holocaust denier.

"That [his emphasis on intellectuality] is how he got in trouble lifting the herem on that bishop," Lamm said.

He also said he opposed transferring control over Church properties in Israel to the Vatican.

"Does a shul in Rome have extraterritorial rights? Why should a church in Israel?" Lamm asked.

Based on principles that he says he learned from Soleveitchik, interfaith dialogue aimed at improving life and advancing peace is important, "as long as there is not an exchange of dogmas."

Lamm expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that historically, Orthodox Jews have refrained from interfaith dialogue with the Church.

"The people who have normally been speaking on behalf of Jewry have been secular and are not concerned with the Jewish religious point of view. It was a mistake for religious Jews to shy away. As a result, the ADL and the American Jewish Committee, who don't always have believing Jews on their staff, have dominated.

"It is important not to paint the pope as a demon. He has a great deal of power and influence, and it is important to have a friend. But he should know that we are not for sale."

Regarding the ordination of female rabbis, Lamm said his opposition was "social, not religious."

"Change has to come to religion when feasible, but it should not be rushed. Women have just come into their own from an educational perspective. I would prefer not to have this innovation right now. It is simply too early. What will happen later... I am not a prophet."

Regarding homosexuality among Orthodox Jewish men, Lamm said he drew a distinction between those who "kept it to themselves" and those who "proselytized."

"Everyone should be made to feel comfortable," he said. "I would never exclude a person because his wife does not cover hair or because he does not adhere to the laws of Shabbat or because he is a homosexual.

"But I am opposed to saying publicly that homosexuals are welcome or accepting people who are openly gay and who campaign for a gay lifestyle, just as I would oppose someone who openly campaigns to desecrate Shabbat or to speak slanderously."

For the sake of argument, let's say Rabbi Lamm is correct.

So-called Centrist Modern Orthodoxy has moved so far rightward, it is almost theologically indistinguishable from haredism, apart from its stands on Zionism and secular education.

And Centrist leaders like Rabbi Herschel Schachter continue to move it further right.

What this means is that twenty years from now, a blend of haredism and Centrist Modern Orthodoxy will dominate communal life.

If this is not the type of Jewish community you want to live in, I suggest you fight against it now, while there is still time.

[Hat Tip: Chicago Sam.]

Comments

[Choni Davidowitz]

Eventually all types of Judaism will dissapear in the Diaspora.
After nearly 2000 years of cruel and bitter exile, it is time all Jews leave the "stepmother" of foreign Lands , and return to the real mother- Eretz Yisrael.
I am convinced that before his term is up, Obama will be God's "messenger " to make millions of Jews come Home.

[ML]

7 out of 10 Jews who belong to a synagogue, go to a Reform or Conservative one.

2 out of 10 go to an Orthodox one.

Simply proclaiming the death of non-orthodox Judaism isn't enough to make it true.

[David]

"With a heavy heart we will soon say kaddish on the Reform and Conservative Movements,"

That was almost ridiculously hypocritical. The demise of Conservative or Reform Judaism would make the Haredi world even more giddily self-righteous than they are now.

[radical feminist]

If anything, we are seeing in America that Church's and Synagogues are changing to meet the demands of the people. Unlike Israel, the government does not fund the Haredi. If a Shul does not support gay marriage or women's rights I just take myself and my money elsewhere. What we are seeing in America is the death of traditional religions that supported ideas that have fallen out of favor with a large percentage of Americans.If the Haredi lost their government funding in Israel, and could only rely on donations, we would see a far more tolerant form of Judaism their I believe.

[Yochanan Lavie]

RF: Actually, its mainline Protestant churches that are dying off. Right-wing churches are thriving. Christianity is thriving in flyover country; on the coasts there is secularization.

[Paul Freedman]

In the never-ending competitive spelling-bee of Jewish learnin' I for sure salute the dedication to traditional study of Norman and his buddies which, post-Madoff, is evidently being frutifully funded by TARP.

[itchiemayer]

"I am convinced that before his term is up, Obama will be God's "messenger " to make millions of Jews come Home".
So sayeth Choni
While I am not "convinced" of this, I do think it is a real possibility.

[C-G]

"...if you add goyim to Jews then you will do OK"

"The future of American Jewry is in the hands of haredim and the modern Orthodox. We have to find ways of working together"

"He supports outreach to Reform and Conservative Jews, "but not by watering down what we believe and not by demonizing them either.""

Good luck with that, Dr. Lamm- now that you've alienated just about everyone but the haredim (who wouldn't eat at the homes of most of your YU students) so why bother with the brotherly love BS (just so long as it's not a "lifestyle", that is!)? This article reeks of desperation. It's very sad.

[radical feminist]

Yl, actually it is Golus that gave birth to Reform and Conservative movements. Much of Haredi growth is by having children. The South does have a higher birth rate. but Judaism and Christianity is changing rapidly. We now have several Synagogues and Churches that ordain women and offer gay marriage. there are now even Modern Orthodox Shuls reviewing gay marriage. The birth of the Islamic Reform movement happened here in the USA and also recognizes gay marriage and supports the State of Israel. While you are right that the "Middle of the Road" churches are in trouble I think there is still a significant shift toward the left.

[Yochanan Lavie]

RF: But at the same time, Reform is a lot more traditional in its rituals than it was when I grew up in it. It's a dynamic situation.

One could also argue that conservative megachurches that are different from historical European Christianity are more innovative than traditional, conservative though their theology might be.

There is a difference between beign traditional and being fossilized, IMO. It's not all-or-nothing with chidush vs. tradition.

[zach]

Chareidim will eventually be the dominant form of Judaism without a doubt. Even if increasing numbers go OTD, their high birth rate will more than compensate. The only wild card here is economics, as they are not self-sufficient and require massive infusions of money from the outside in order to survive.

[itchiemayer]

7 out of 10 Jews who belong to a synagogue, go to a Reform or Conservative one - yes, but what percentage of those people are Jews by the orthodox standard. Patrilineal descent and conversions for convenience inflate those numbers. The true percentage is lower. Also, that was an '01 survey. The orthodox numbers are surely on the rise since even 2001. In 30 years (maybe less), orthodoxy will be the main stream of Judaism.

[yankele der ganiv]

Until the "frumeh," and I am including the Modern/Centrist/Rightist Orthodoxy in this category, learn to deal with its child molestation issues/ its abhorance of secular education/ the ballooning cost of private education, and the many other ills that plague "orthodoxy," Reform and COnservative Judaism have very little to worry about.

If I am not mistaken, its 30% of Orthodox that leave the fold and enter the "other streams of Judaism" (I think these are Gary Tobin's numbers. ANd this does not include the "frumeh" who just leave.). These numbers are enough to keep the other movements alive for quite a while.

But, I think Shmaryah, you overlook a very important trend that I am seeing amongst my friends. There are people: ranging from Orthodox who are liberals (crude example) to Lubavitchers who are fed up with the meshichist crap (and who believe that Mendel Schneerson is dead), who are creating new avenues and paths of worship. Some, like creating new shuls (like progressive Orthodoxy in places like New York or Los Angeles). Many Orthodox are learning from our Catholic brothers/President Obama and are not agreeing with everything that the clergy tell us.

[Paul Freedman]

I wonder what happened to Matisyahu

[david]

The stuff about Reform is old hat. But I think this is interesting:

"Regarding the ordination of female rabbis, Lamm said his opposition was "social, not religious."

""Change has to come to religion when feasible, but it should not be rushed. Women have just come into their own from an educational perspective. I would prefer not to have this innovation right now. It is simply too early. What will happen later... I am not a prophet."

"Regarding homosexuality among Orthodox Jewish men, Lamm said he drew a distinction between those who "kept it to themselves" and those who "proselytized."

""Everyone should be made to feel comfortable," he said. "I would never exclude a person because his wife does not cover hair or because he does not adhere to the laws of Shabbat or because he is a homosexual.

""But I am opposed to saying publicly that homosexuals are welcome or accepting people who are openly gay and who campaign for a gay lifestyle, just as I would oppose someone who openly campaigns to desecrate Shabbat or to speak slanderously.""

[Dave Marshall]

I am not Orthodox, but I am hoping to soon join an MO synagogue. The reason is that when the Conservative movement starts ordaining gay rabbis, that's the beginning of the end of traditional Jewish morality, as far as I am concerned. Yet I prefer to date Chinese women (tried dating Jewish women for over 20 years), so I guess that makes me a total religious "orphan". So be it.

[Archie Bunker]

Watching Shmarya & his rabidly anti-religious followers deny the inevitable and trumpet a call to arms is like a case study of a cornered animal that knows it's time is up.

And ML should go back to elementary school to learn some basic math. What good are numbers of secular Jews going to temple once or twice a year when their children marry out of the faith and move away?

[david]

Ha - so the Meir Kahane Y"S follower Choni Davidowitz is here to spread his extreme right-wing propaganda!

"The greatest Jew since the Rebirth of Israel" and "Banning Rabbi Kahane and his ideology is like banning Hashem and His Torah."

Do you think people here agree with that Davidowitz? Or are you going to sneak around and try and get people to trust you and think that you're just a nice frum Zionist before you start spewing your filth?

[itchiemayer]

Dave Marshall - try finding a Jewish woman that is Chinese. They are out there.

[david]

"What good are numbers of secular Jews going to temple once or twice a year when their children marry out of the faith and move away?"

Yeah, what good is anyone who doesn't keep all 613 Commandments? What good am I? What good is my baby son? What good is Shmarya? Only Archie Bunker is any good.

But I'm curious how you know who Archie Bunker is... After all, what kind of good is a so-called Jew who watches TV?

[Archie Bunker]

"I prefer to date Chinese women"

Now I understand why you want to convert Far East Asians en masse to Judaism. It's because you've got Yellow fever for the women. That's the term that men in Manhattan's Chinatown use for White interlopers who nose around the neighborhood for their women.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Dave Marshall - try finding a Jewish woman that is Chinese. They are out there.

Posted by: itchiemayer | May 12, 2009 at 02:04 PM

Yeah, Dave, find an Ori-yenta.

[R]

The whole religion is going to the dogs because the so called leaders can no longer lead due to being blinded by money and power.

[david]

Really Archie? How do you know about nosing around for Chinese women? What kind of good is a so-called Jew like that?

[Archie Bunker]

David, I haven't done any of that nosing around so I suggest you direct your question to those that have.

I happen to know about Yellow fever from both secular and orthodox sources. There are some shadchanim who know many of the Oriental adoptees and other converts. Certain guys go gaga over the list of names and in some cases date them all. I have heard some rabbis criticize these guys when they date them to the exclusion of born-Jewish girls.

[Dave Marshall]

Hi guys, thanks for all the funny posts !
Archie, I tried at least 20 years to meet a Jewish woman. I married and divorced (within a year and a half) a gorgeous Moroccan Jewish girl (I am of Iraqi ancestry myself, so I thought it was a good idea). Unfortunately she was also a paranoid schizophrenic, a "minor" detail she and her family failed to mention to me before I married her.
Arch, I happen to think that many Chinese and Japanese people, because of their values concerning studies, respect for elders, their Confucian-based ethics (some of which is similar to our Mussar), would make great Jews.
Also I personally think that many Chinese are stunningly gorgeous, and many of them remain good looking for years after the European sisters unfortunately stop looking so wonderful.
At this point I am 50 years old. I always wanted to have a family, but I was too fearful/ fussy/ talkative/ overly romantic, you name it- I just didn't meet the right woman. The last couple of years I've dated a few Chinese women. Most of them have very little background in religion- thanks Chairman Mao !- so they don't have the prejudices towards Judaism that many so-secular people of Christian parentage/ ancestry have. Most of them don't know anything about Judaism, so in a sense they are a "clean slate" as far as religion is concerned. Therefore, I think if i pushed in a nice way, the next Chinese woman I date may consider becoming Jewish.
I am certainly going to try my best.

[C-G]

"Chareidim will eventually be the dominant form of Judaism without a doubt. "

No. They might eventually win the largest demographic group prize, but their forms of Judaism will live on in increasingly isolated communities which will sink further and further into poverty without the support of less-observant Jews. But if that's okay with them, it's okay with me.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: You don't have to answer to any human being. Good luck.

[Ben]

Haredi will be the main face of the Jewry in 30 years.
Rav Lamm is absolutely correct, if current trends continue for the next 30 years, that will be the case.
This also is going to be a very sad triumph. The very types of Jews that make us proud will be gone with the wind if this scenario to be realised.

[yirmiyahu]

I really wasn't surprised that Lamm spat out the term "intellectual" as an insult. Norman Lamm's lackluster and anti-intellectual leadership of YU has made the school into a "Hareidi Lite" institution. The thing is, by real Hareidim, YU is still suspect (remember how the YU "Roshei Yeshivah" were treated at the Daf Hayomi Siyyum?).

In general he is showing signs of being a tired and quarrelsome old geezer.

[Dave Marshall]

Yochanan, Thanks for your support.
Itchie, the only Chinese Jewish girls I know are either some girls from Kaifeng who live in Israel and converted through the Chief Rabbinate- but they're all in their 20's. There are also some Chinese Jewish girls who were converted when they were adopted from China as babies, but most of them are only 14 or 15 years old now!
So thanks for your idea, but I think I will have to gently persuade my next Chinese girlfriend to become Jewish.

[izzie]

"yirmuyahu" if by YU rosh yeshivas you mean mr. willig then they should NOT have been let in. I have met Willig on a social level and he seems a nice enough guy. however, how does one permit mattering a get meusah i.e eyshes ish and chayvei krisos which both Rav Shlom Zalman and rav Elyashiv assured unless one is ...? I prefer not to fill in the blanks?
Furthemore I spoke to the spokesman of the RCA so called beth Din. he told me that they follow NY Wquitable distribution law's AS OPPOSED to Shulchan Oruch because of DINA DE'MALCHUSA DINA. This is not only a mis-understanding or twisting of the concept of dina de-malchusa but more importantly ke'neged a mefurash Shut Horashba which the bais yosef appears to bring le'halochah where at the end of the tshuva the rashba le'havdil "goes wild" wtih this type of mis-interpretation. I have no doubt they will fins a shitas yochid on whom to be soymech. the age old question re-appears what came first the chicken i.e HASHKOFAH or the EGG the psak?

[ML]

And ML should go back to elementary school to learn some basic math. What good are numbers of secular Jews going to temple once or twice a year when their children marry out of the faith and move away?

Posted by: Archie Bunker | May 12, 2009 at 01:42 PM

That's not what the numbers show. Where do you come up with this stuff?

The number show who synagogue members are. If people really didn't care, then they wouldn't be members. I think it really is that simple. You're wrong and you're mad about it, which is like saying the sun rose today.

[ML]

YOU do the basic math. You lose every time.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Most Jews are unaffiliated; i.e. no synagogue of any kind.

[ML]

This study only takes into account affiliated Jews (and affiliated in the traditional sense of being a member of a synagogue).
YL, you say most are unaffiliated, which if true, would mean that the percentages here represent >50% of all Jews. That would put the orthodox at about 1 in 10 Jews (if we say 50% are unaffiliated).

[Yochanan Lavie]

American Jewish Identity Survey Releases Statistics
Mar 16, 2002
Los Angeles Times
On March 16, 2002 the Los Angeles Times reported that "a new survey has found that more than 1 million U.S. Jewish households, or 44%, are affiliated with a congregation, up from 880,000 families in a parallel survey a decade ago... But the American Jewish Identity Survey 2001 also indicates secularism is a growing force... About 1.7 million people who called themselves Jewish by identity, parentage or upbringing describe their households as atheist, agnostic, secular, humanist or as having no religion... The results are an increase of 53% from a 1990 survey. About 1.1 million adults identify with the Reform branch, 940,000 with the Conservative branch, 300,000 with Orthodoxy and 75,000 with other groups... The study of 1,668 Jewish households was conducted by the Center for Jewish Studies at the City University of New York."

I don't know how much this has changed in 7 years, but it would seem that less than 50% are affiliated.

[alternative childcare]

And the other 50% are tefiliated?

[MOJ]

Maybe if Haredim stopped being such nasty bigots, and not caring what anyone else in Judaism, or science says, would I ever associate myself with them.

[Ben]

300 thousand that are growing can not replace 5.7 million that are shrinking.

Reform and Conservative and Secular Jewish organizations still have lots of work to do.

[Equal Tim e]

--Dave: You don't have to answer to any human being. Good luck. --

I almost agree with you, but.....

He started his argument by stating he was going to move to MO because CJ had decided to ordain gays - THEN announced he wasn't going to marry a Jewish woman and instead applied a standard that is simply, and by all definitions ......... racist.

I think I need to know why one avarya is OK and the other not before I'm willing to give him a pass.

[Chicago Samson]

When I read this article, I was surprised to see Rabbi Lamm express such pessimism, or could it be that his psyche is revealing a subtle form of wish fulfillment?

Given the nature of how the modern Jewish family is structured, I think it is probably safe to say that there will always be Jewish Orthodox young people who rebel against the religious autocracy of the Orthodox--in all of its forms. Moreover, these disenchanted young people will always have a home in the Reform and Conservative, or other brands of Judaism. This has always been the case ever since the Reform movement first began.

Who do you think were the founding fathers of the Reform movement? They were ex-Orthodox rabbis who rejected the Orthodoxy of their families. Some things will never change.

Rabbi's Lamm dismissal of the impact that feminism is exerting on contemporary Judaism is facile and inaccurate. Their are many new kinds of Orthodox synagogues that allow women to read from the Torah! Should the Haredi spirit continue to dominate the Orthodox world, Orthodox feminists will always find a home with the Conservative movement--plain and simple.

[Yochanan Lavie]

CS: As Conservative moves further left, I can see a new denomination emerging between Orthodox & Conservative.

[Chicago Samson]

++CS: As Conservative moves further left, I can see a new denomination emerging between Orthodox & Conservative.++

I for one never liked the "Conservative" label, it reminds me of people who are politically stodgy in their thinking; I think the Conservative Movement in the U.S. should call themselves "Masorti" as they do in Israel.

Now, with respect to negations; Orthodox derives from the Greek contraction ortho- (correct) + doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think; i.e., to be orthodox implicitly suggests "I am right, you are WRONG!!). Reform, as implied by its name is a negation of Orthodoxy, for to "reform" something is to make something correct by eliminating an object or entity's errors, or defects; put into a better form or condition. "Conservative" is a double negation of both "Orthodox" and "Reform."

Personally, I prefer, "Flexidoxy," which has a much friendlier tone. What do you think? OTOH, there's nothing wrong with American Jews committed to halacha and tradition just calling themselves, "Masorti."

[Neo-Conservaguy]

YL wrote:

"CS: As Conservative moves further left, I can see a new denomination emerging between Orthodox & Conservative."

It's already here, my friend, in the form of independent minyanim that are, at this point, largely (but not exclusively) populated by a college-age crowd. Some "left-wing Orthodox" halachic scholars have paved the way for increased participation by women, which sets up that middle ground that I suspect many people are seeking. Time will tell.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"He supports outreach to Reform and Conservative Jews, "but not by watering down what we believe and not by demonizing them either."

Perhaps he could begin with a public act of tshuva and apologize for the hateful rhetoric that has been thrown at too many JTS rabbis from his movement. I would also support some leader in the Conservative movement doing the same towards the Orthodox rabbinate. One can hold different halachic positions without acting like a jerk - something that seems to elude the mindset of many Orthodox rabbis, to the detriment of klal.

[Yochanan Lavie]

CS & Neo: Interesting thoughts. My own philosophy is leftwing Ortho, but my praxis is Conservadox. I like UTJ, YCT, the independent minyanim Neo mentions, and the more traditional voices at USCJ. Dave Marshall has some interesting ideas, too.

Didn't Gershom Winkler write a book called Flexidoxy? I never read it- what's it about?

I call myself Traditional, which is English for Masorti. But the Hebrew word is a "trademark" in Israel and other countries for USCJ, so I use the English word. (Morashti, in Hebrew?)

To make it easier, why doesn't everyone admit I'm right and they're wrong? That would eliminate all sinat chinam! (/humor).

[Paul Freedman]

Do they permit women to be called to read from the Torah scroll--if so that could be a draw to the more observant Conservative--even Conservative guys who would be neutral on that have girl friends, fiances, and wives

[Yochanan Lavie]

Which "they" are you referring to, Paul?

[Chicago Samson]

++Do they permit women to be called to read from the Torah scroll--if so that could be a draw to the more observant Conservative--even Conservative guys who would be neutral on that have girl friends, fiances, and wives++

Yes, I believe you are correct!

Get a load of this: Shira Hadasha was founded in Jerusalem in 2001 by a group of Jerusalem residents who wanted to increase women's participation and leadership within traditional Jewish prayer and law.

Tova Hartman (daughter of the well-known OJ philosopher David Hartman), one of the founders of Shira Hadasha, is a Professor of Education at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, specializing in gender studies, and author of books on the role of women in Judaism.

Shira Hadasha defines itself "as a religious community that embraces a commitment to Jewish law, prayer and feminism in response to the growing need of many religious women and men to readdress the role of women in the synagogue."

This synagogue is packed every Shabbat, and their philosophy ought to be a model every Orthodox synagogue uses for their congregants.

[whimsy anderson]

I agree with ET
from a halachich perspective, the Jewish man who says he dates non-Jews or slept around before marriage but hinks gay marriage goes against "Jewish Morality" is actually, no less a sinner then someone having a gay rleationship. Purely speaking the sins hold the same level of averah.
As per trends in Judaism, all we need to do is give Jewish women choices and a good secualar education, worked for me. Then if you don't give us equal rights we can just take our perfect Jewish uterus elsewhere.

[Yonah]

Choni Davidowitz:

Rav Kahana went to R. Yochanan and asked him, if your mother treats you badly and your stepmother well, with whom should you live? And R. Yochanan said, the one that honours you. Upon hearing this Kahana left Eretz Yisrael for Bavel.

About a new movement between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism: oh man, I hope. That is exactly the space I occupy. Very few people don't find it ridiculous, though, it seems.

[Yonah]

Also, I agree with the person who talked about calling women to the Torah. In general kol isha has to be the biggest barrier for a lot of women - it certainly is for me. That, and attitude, but every movement has that, just in a different flavour.

[Joe Bloom]

Rabbi Lamm has a point there -- reform "Judaism" destroyed most of my family. Most of them intermarried and the children are goyim. Reform didn't even try to educate -- they just lowered the bar. If their intent wasn't to destroy Judaism, I don't know what else it could have been.

[jaded topaz]

Izzie,
When making a legal argument, it’s not enough to substitute “mr.” for Rabbi and or refer to the other party who happens to be a Rosh Yeshiva and Rabbi, by last name only.
Citations/sources and facts are also important.Otherwise its just confusing.

Can you please provide the actual details on the scenarios you've alluded to and the Talmudic sources for both sides of the halacha on the vague "Get" argument you are attempting to make.
The Talmudic sources both Rabbis Elyashiv ,Shlomo Zalman and Rabbi Willig are basing their halachic decision on.

Also, I’m not sure what your point is with regards to NY Equitable Distribution Laws and the Shulchan Aruch.
What precisely does the Shulchan Aruch have to say with regards to NY Equitable Distribution laws, and Dinah Dmalchusah Dina?
Please describe in detail what in particular the Bais Yosef you cite, is implying, “lehalacha” when he references the Shut Horashba, and what precisely the Rashba is “going wild about”.

Would it be possible to include some French sources in your legal argument.

thanks.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave Marshall,

I feel for you, man. No one should have to have their life ruined by someone who hid an illness like that. I appeal to you though to only pursue Chinese women who have already converted otherwise the conversion will be invalid and your kids will not Jewish, despite what Shmarya and his camp falsely promote to the contrary.

[Archie Bunker]

"One can hold different halachic positions without acting like a jerk - something that seems to elude the mindset of many Orthodox rabbis"

Earth to neo-conserv:

There's no such thing as halacha in your movement. The homos and so called rabbis at the Conservative JTS destroy halacha with phony & cynical makeovers.

[Archie Bunker]

"Didn't Gershom Winkler write a book called Flexidoxy?"

Gershon Winkler is on the Awareness Center list of unconvicted sexual offenders since he pretends to be a rabbi while campaigning to protect rapist Marc Gafni and Gafni's lifestyle. Winkler admitted in a JTA interview that he has fathered children with his students while insisting that he is not abusing clergy trust.

[Archie Bunker]

"well-known OJ philosopher David Hartman"

To say that that boor David Hartman is orthodox is one of the funniest things I've heard in a while. He may have still been orthodox many years ago when he physically threw Dovid Cohen out of a lecture at YU but he has since gone way down the slippery slope.

And what makes him "well-known"? That he ran around the Reform-Conservative lecture circuit making absurdly grandiose threats he couldn't carry out, before disappearing for the next 25 years?

And his daughter can stick her feminist model where the sun don't shine. It's about as orthodox as a BLT.

[Archie Bunker]

whimsy anderson,

The Bible calls gay sex an abomination. It is much worse than what you equate it with.

[Paul Freedman]

YL: in response to NeoConservaguy and your own experience: the "they" would be a congregation whose rabbi had Orthodox certification--if the idea is to attract the more committed and dedicated young adults and others from Conservative shuls physical separation of sexes, and restriction of aliyot to men in a general minyan could be a barrier to traditional-minded *couples* where the female partner would be uncomfortable with restrictive practices--my nephew and his girl friend, however, would probably both be comfortable with the "partnership minyan' format:

wikipedia:

In addition, following recent publication of opinions by Modern Orthodox Rabbi Mendel Shapiro and Bar-Ilan University Talmud Professor and Modern Orthodox Rabbi Daniel Sperber claiming that halakha permits women to participate in regular Torah reading on Shabbat under certain conditions, a small number of congregations identifying themselves as Modern Orthodox, called "Partnership Minyanim", have begun permitting women to take on this role. The argument involved is controversial and most Orthodox authorities and organizations do not agree with it. [10].

In congregations who call women to the Torah through either a women's minyan or a partnership minyan, girls attain Bat Mitzvah at the age of 12 as in other Orthodox congregations rather than 13 (as in Conservative and liberal congregations). In all-women's services, it is often customary to call a Bat Kohen (daughter of a Kohen) and a Bat Levi (daughter of a Levite) for the first and second aliyah. In partnership minyan services, only men are called for the Kohen and Levi aliyah.

[Isa]

Dave Marshall:
""""I tried at least 20 years to meet a Jewish woman. I married and divorced (within a year and a half) a gorgeous Moroccan Jewish girl (I am of Iraqi ancestry myself, so I thought it was a good idea). Unfortunately she was also a paranoid schizophrenic, a "minor" detail she and her family failed to mention to me before I married her. """"

Brother I feel for you!
Tip:
Going to marry someone OR thinking of it?
How does she get along with her father?
If she hates her father she may have a bad attitude towards men in general YES it does NOT show up now! Just wait and it WILL!!

[Paul Freedman]

my nephew for example while very active in young adult/post college Conservative leadership study and training refuses to drive to shul and, at least from a distance, is in the "middle ground", but I don't see how he and his sweetie participate in a congregation (or if it should happen, officiate over a congregation) where she is shut out of participation

[ML]

It is unlikely there will be a new movement between orthodox and conservative. Movements in general seem very last century (or two) for me. What's wrong with just being Jewish?

Anyway, not all congregations of the same denomination are the same. I've been at conservative shuls that seemed close to reform and others that were orthodox minus the mechitza and women's equality issues.

A new movement will definitely not spring forth from a single issue (i.e. homosexuality).

[Archie Bunker]

"A new movement will definitely not spring forth from a single issue (i.e. homosexuality)."

UTJ is stacked with Conservative "rabbis" who who jumped ship after being disgusted with the JTS embrace of homos. While they didn't start the movement they added to it's ranks.

[ML]

What is your problem with homosexuals, Archie?

[Archie Bunker]

For the benefit of those who are a little slow, G-d calls homosexuality an abomination in the Bible.

Homosexuals are also known to militantly push their agenda on the 98% of society that is normal. They constantly lie by the way and claim they are 12% of the population instead of 2%, hoping it gives them more clout.

[ML]

G-d doesn't mention "homosexuality" in the Torah. Do you even understand what that term means? Maybe it's you who's the slow one. Still working on that basic math?

What I find most amusing is that you love to lump all gay people together but throw a fit if someone does it to orthodox Jews.

You push your agenda, that much is clear. But others can't push theirs? What?

[dr. dave]

This is all nothing new. Dershowitz on the fourth page of his book:"The Vanishing American Jew: In Search of Jewish Identity for the Next Century." says what Lamm says and even has a nifty chart (lifted from Moment magazine 1996) on page 4 documenting the population shifts based on birth, death and assimilation rates of the various Jewish factions.

http://www.amazon.com/Vanishing-American-Jew-Identity-Century/dp/0316181331#reader

[justayid]

The thing about those new unaffiliated minyanim though, do they explicitly reject the new USCJ stand on gays? If so, I think they will have a hard time winning over most Masorti young people. This is a big civil rights issue to this generation - AFAICT there are many masorti young who dislike stodgy shuls, English prayers, wishy washiness on driving, kashrut, etc but who will have no truck with "homophobia" I don't think the ground between USCJ and YU is ready for a new movement, there are still too many big issues that divide those who would form one. IF USCJ were to go much further left (adopting the Tucker Takanah, say) maybe then. But not yet.

[Archie Bunker]

ML, you know I meant gay sex mentioned in Leviticus which the homos are pushing society to give their approval to.

[justayid]

as for the math, think about it.

50 years ago O was declining. Selection bias meant those O who didnt pass on O, or have lots of kids, faded as a % of all O. The rest of O grows and grows by birth rates.

Not all Masorti are the same. AFAICT, the most committed Masorti tend to have more kids, kids who are less likely to intermarry, etc, etc. They are a small percent of all Conserv Jews now, but the more that the 3 times a year ham sandwich eating Conservative jews have few kids, intermarry, and just fade away the more masorti will be dominated by the new style masorti

[MisterApikoros]

The only way Judaism will survive is if interfaith families are welcomed into the fold. The interfaith families will probably remain assimilated, but at least they won't be driven away by the schwarzhutters and their allies.

If Judaism is a religion only for the few, the few will become fewer, regardless of their profundity.

[ML]

Archie, what's your point? Other than being wrong and a hypocrite, why such a hard on for the gays?

[Archie Bunker]

ML, you're such a bore.

Apikoros, that really makes "sense". Your ilk intermarries and are never again recognized as Jews while the orthodox have a high birth rate. Profound indeed.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Cockroaches also have a high birth rate.

About 25% of haredi men are homosexual, about 15% of the haredi population are born with inbred genetic syndromes, about 10% of haredim leave the religious world, and the rest just smell bad, act retarded and suffer a variety of mental illnesses.

[ML]

Archie, If I'm a bore, then you are a what? Or is it just personal attacks now? Typical behavior from you and your kind.

It seems you've run out of stupid things to say. Which is good.

Have a nice day.

[Archie Bunker]

Sounds like WoolSilk is recounting his own behavior when he used to be part of the Chabad movement before he left as an embittered man.

[david]

Wow, Archie does have a hard on for the gays. Didn't he read what R' Lamm said about this "abomination?"

"Everyone should be made to feel comfortable," he said. "I would never exclude a person because his wife does not cover hair or because he does not adhere to the laws of Shabbat or because he is a homosexual.

"But I am opposed to saying publicly that homosexuals are welcome or accepting people who are openly gay and who campaign for a gay lifestyle, just as I would oppose someone who openly campaigns to desecrate Shabbat or to speak slanderously."

So it's kind of like the Rabbi not saying it's OK for the congregants to push a stroller to shul.

Yeah, that's a real abomination!!

[MisterApikoros]

My bad, Archie, I misspoke. I wrote "profundity," when I meant "fecundity," which means one who's exceptionally fertile, which most Orthodox women must be as they're pregnant from about age 14 through 45.

I had a dog like that once. At least I could sell the puppies.

There's nothing especially profound about the Haredi. Quite the contrary, they spend their lives engaged in pilpul.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mister A, if they at least engaged in genuine pilpul to stimulate their minds through critical thinking and analysis, that wouldn't be so bad.
Instead, they practice what amounts to a bizarre form of mental masturbation, and an ongoing 'can you top this' contest of absurd one-upmanship about who can come up with more insane inane restrictions to 'prove' themselves more religious.

[Audrey the Liberal]

"Instead, they practice what amounts to a bizarre form of mental masturbation" That's because actual masturbation is not allowed.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Lamm is an idiot! It is the Modern Orthodoxy who is disappearing, partly because their submission to the haredis and their need for approval from them.

The disappearance of Modern Orthodoxy is not a good thing because without it Orthodoxy will degenerate into Kirias Yoel llike communities sustained by wefare and government fraud while spending their time having sex with children.

I think that in any free country where the hard core religions need to compete in the market place with the more tolerant religion, more people will should the tolerant religion or will choose no religion at all.

Regarding yellow fever ( which ,mostlt applies to white men attracted to Asian women. Jungle fever is mostly applies to white women who are attracted to black men) . An older relative of mine who is a real nebech and could never found a sidduch ended up with much younger than him pretty Filipina who is a nurse in ER and making like $70 hour. They do look very happy, have children, nice house and two cars.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Do they permit women to be called to read from the Torah scroll--if so that could be a draw to the more observant Conservative--even Conservative guys who would be neutral on that have girl friends, fiances, and wives"

There is no standard across the various groups - they are, after all, "independent minyanim". The minyan with which I am familiar has separate seating with a low mechitsah, counts men (only) for the required ten of a minyan, and only men lead "primary services" (my term). Women may lein and receive allioth. They may lead Psukei dZimeroth, Hallel, and Qabbalath Shabbath. They also sing better in general.

[Wondering]

For those who say they are ideologically opposed to Orthodoxy and favor reform and conservative because they apparently fail to take proper action against child molesters (oh yeah right, as if this is your only reason - don't kid yourself... or us), can someone please tell me what reform / conservative have done to combat child molesters?

Are reform and conservative free from sin or guiltless? That's a rhetorical question.

[Shmarya]

For those who say they are ideologically opposed to Orthodoxy and favor reform and conservative because they apparently fail to take proper action against child molesters (oh yeah right, as if this is your only reason - don't kid yourself... or us), can someone please tell me what reform / conservative have done to combat child molesters?

Are reform and conservative free from sin or guiltless? That's a rhetorical question.

Both movements have rabbinic panels that hear cases of rabbinic impropriety. Both movements have strict guidelines for rabbinic interpersonal behavior. And both movements call police, they do not first do in house investigations.

No system is perfect.

But both major non-Orthodox movements are light years ahead of Orthodoxy.

[Yonah]

Incidentally, I take back what I said about A's comments improving. :( For awhile it was looking less bigoted, though.

[Archie Bunker]

Leave it to Shmarya to cover up for Conservative cover ups that have taken place.

[avi]

why do you hate rhs?

[ML]

So expose, Archie!

Start that blog and do it. Instead of making the issue Shmarya, why don't you uncover all of these so-called 'cover ups'?

You only bitch and whine, but you NEVER back up anything with action.

When you get that blog started, let me know.