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May 12, 2009

VATICAN LIES: Pope Was "Never, Never, Never" In Hitler Youth

But the Pope's autobiography says he was a Hitler Youth member.

Vatican: Pope was 'never, never, never,' in Hitler Youth
By Haaretz Staff and Reuters

German-born Pope Benedict was never a member of the Hitler Youth, the official Vatican spokesman said on Tuesday, contradicting quotes from the pope himself that have been aired again during his visit to Israel.

Reverand Federico Lombardi said the pope, whose speech at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial on Monday was criticized in Israel as too abstract, was a member of anti-aircraft units that many youths were drafted into in the last two years of World War Two.

But noting many media reports during his Middle East tour had mentioned membership in the Nazi Party's youth wing, Lombardi told reporters in Jerusalem: "The pope was never in the Hitler Youth, never, never, never."

In "Salt of the Earth", a 1996 book of autobiographical and religious reflections based on interviews with German journalist Peter Seewald, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said, however, that he was automatically enrolled into the Hitler Youth.

Asked if he had been a member, he said: "At first we weren't, but when the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941, my brother was obliged to join. I was still too young, but later, as a seminarian, I was registered in the HY. As soon as I was out of the seminary, I never went back."

He also said he served on anti-aircraft batteries and was conscripted into the German infantry late in the war.

Lombardi did not say why the Vatican had not issued a denial about membership in the Hitler Youth in the past. Media reports highlighted this issue even before Benedict was elected in 2005, and it regularly appears in articles about him.


Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin added his own voice Tuesday to the criticism of German-born Pope Benedict XVI for his speech at Israel's Holocaust museum on Monday - the first day of what seems to be turning into a contentious visit to Israel.

Citing Benedict's teenage membership in the Hitler Youth and German military service, Rivlin berated the pope over his address on Monday at Yad Vashem.

"With all due respect to the Holy See, we cannot ignore the burden he bears, as a young German who joined the Hitler Youth and as a person who joined Hitler's army, which was an instrument in the extermination," Rivlin told Israel Radio.

"He came and told us as if he were a historian, someone looking in from the sidelines, about things that should not have happened. And what can you do? He was a part of them," Rivlin said.

Rivlin described Benedict as a "German who joined the Hitler Youth and ... a person who joined Hitler's army".

The Vatican spokesman made a distinction between convinced Hitler Youth activists and members of the anti-aircraft units, omitting the category of involuntary Hitler Youth members to which Benedict has been quoted as saying he belonged.

"The Hitler Youth was a corps of volunteers, fanatically, ideologically for the Nazis," Lombardi said.

The anti-aircraft auxiliary corps the pope was enrolled in towards the end of the war "had absolutely nothing to do with the Hitler Youth and the Nazis and Nazi ideology", he added.

"It is important to say what is true and not to say false things about a very sensitive thing like this," Lombardi said.

Histories of the air-aircraft auxiliary corps, known as the "Flakhelfer", and of the Hitler Youth, describe the auxiliaries as being organised as a unit of the Hitler Youth.

Shortly after his visit to the Yad Vashem memorial, the pope walked out of an interfaith meeting in Jerusalem after a Palestinian Muslim cleric accused Israel of "slaughter."

At the Yad Vashem ceremony, the pope spoke of the "horrific tragedy of the Shoah," the Hebrew term for the Holocaust, but disappointed some Jewish religious leaders who said he should have apologized as a German and a Christian for the genocide.

The speech drew criticism from staff members of the Holocaust memorial, who described it as disappointing and lukewarm. The chairman of the Yad Vashem Directorate, Avner Shalev, said he expected the pope, "who is a human being, too," to draw on his personal experience to issue a stronger condemnation of Nazis and Germans, who were not directly mentioned in the speech.

The pope grew up in Nazi Germany and served in both Hitler Youth and the Wehrmacht, before deserting from the army in 1944. Shalev, however, said the speech was "important," especially in its criticism of denial of the Holocaust.

In his speech Monday, the pope spoke at length about the importance of remembering the victims of the Holocaust.

"One can rob a neighbor of possessions, opportunity or freedom. One can weave an insidious web of lies to convince others that certain groups are undeserving of respect. Yet, try as one might, one can never take away the name of a fellow human being," he said.

"May the names of these victims never perish! May their suffering never be denied, belittled or forgotten! And may all people of goodwill remain vigilant in rooting out from the heart of man anything that could lead to tragedies such as this!" he said.

In what appeared to be an attempt to rally to the pope's defense, Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger said he was certain the pontiff subscribed to the prayer hids predecessor John Paul II placed in the Western Wall nine years ago, in which he asked for God's forgiveness for suffering caused to Jews over the centuries.

In the prayer he slotted into a stone crevice of the remnant of the Roman-era Jewish Temple complex, Pope Benedict mentioned in general terms "the suffering and the pain of all your people throughout the world" and called for peace in the Middle East.

The chairman of Yad Vashem, Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, himself a Holocaust survivor, complained Monday of the pope's usage of the word "millions" instead of the more specific "six million" when speaking of the Holocaust's Jewish victims, as well as over his use of the word "killed" rather than "murdered."

"There's a dramatic difference between killed and murdered, especially when a speech has gone through so many hands," Lau said.

Lau also said that the speech "didn't have a single word of condolence, compassion or sharing the pain of the Jewish people as such. There was a lot about the pain of humanity, cosmopolitan words," Lau said.

However Lau, the chief rabbi of Tel Aviv and a former Ashkenazi chief rabbi of Israel, also described the speech as "beautiful and well scripted and very Biblical."

The Pope is a very small man trying to fill the very large shoes of his immediate predecessor. He is not succeeding.

Comments

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Well that didn't take long for you to get back on my shit list Shmarya you opportunistic lowlife anti-Catholic closet Atheist!

Lombardi is not too bright & I predict he will soon get canned. OTOH morally speaking he is right of course. Benedict DID NOT JOIN the Hitler youth of his own free will. So in that sense he was never a member. That is what he likely meant.

If I forced Shmarya to be baptised against his will does that make him a member of the Catholic Church? If so then Abe Foxman is Catholic.

SOME JEWS AND MUSLIMS INSULT POPE

May 12, 2009


After Pope Benedict XVI spoke at Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial, the chairman of the Directorate, Avner Shalev, said that while the pope’s visit was “important,” he regretted that the pope never mentioned anti-Semitism nor the Nazis. Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, chairman of the Yad Vashem Council and Tel Aviv’s chief rabbi, said the pope’s speech was “devoid of any compassion, any regret.” Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin accused the pope of not asking for “forgiveness,” noting that the pope’s (coerced) membership in the Hitler Youth means he carries “baggage.”

Following the pope’s visit to Yad Vashem, Palestinian leader Sheik Taysir Tamimi forced his way to the pulpit at an interreligious event asking the pope to fight for “a just peace for a Palestinian state and for Israel to stop killing women and children and destroying mosques as she did in Gaza”; he asked the pope to “pressure the Israeli government to stop its aggression against the Palestinian people.”

Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:

“When the pope spoke at Yad Vashem, he said he had come ‘to stand in silence before this monument, erected to honor the memory of the millions of Jews killed in the horrific tragedy of the Shoah.’ Didn’t Avner Shalev hear that? Or how about these words from the pope? ‘May the names of these victims never perish! May their suffering never be denied, belittled or forgotten!’ Rabbi Lau, never one to miss an opportunity to say it’s never enough, embarrassed his cohorts when he said that the pope’s speech was devoid of compassion. As for Rivlin, he should know that it is not the pope who needs to apologize for the crimes of the Nazis—indeed he was victimized by them. Some baggage!

“The Vatican quickly condemned Sheik Tamimi’s hate speech, as it should have. Where are all the Muslim leaders condemning it? There is a time and a place for everything—and this was wrong on both counts. To exploit the pope’s journey for peace by beckoning him to bash Jews shows how utterly futile it is to have an interreligious meeting with some people. Evidently, Tamimi doesn’t get what ‘Never Again’ really means.”

Shmarya I really don't think you have any sense of right & wrong you just like being contrary.

All the orthodox Jews attack the Pope so you have to "defend" him because you can't stand orthodox Jews. But scratch you the right way you are really no better than steve now are you?

Benny was drafted and not willingly a Hitler Youth. He was no Nazi.

Jim,

you mean it took you this long to figure it out???

The key is to get past it. You'll see this is what makes Shmarya so lovable.

>you mean it took you this long to figure it out???

Now I know better.

I agree with the Levite. The Pope is not a Nazi. John Paul II is a tough act to follow, but I have been reasonably satisfied with the current Pope thus far, save for his backing off on his anti-muslim comments.

Haven't read the Pope's speech in its entirety but it seems he said the right things. What more need he say? He acknowledged the killing of millions of Jews. He didn't say the word "murdered." OK. He didn't say "6 million." OK. But so what? Doesn't take away from the speech. I think we have to lighten up on this man a little. Let's be grateful he's in Israel and he's condemning anti-Semitism, which is an enormous slap in the face of Muslims, who live and breathe anti-Semitism. Go Pope Benedict! Give 'em hell!

Benedict is damned if he does & damned if he doesn't.

I just have to accept there are some Jews & Israelis who are as anti-Catholic as Bob Sungenis is anti-Semitic.

I can't let that change what I believe no matter how hard Satan temps me.

shmuel,

G-D Bless you & keep you. Cause His face to shine on you & be Gracious to you & may he give you His Shalom. Amen!

If we abandon non-empirical pilpul (maybe this is an orthodox blog after all) we read, well in Wikipedia:

"By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ. By 1940, it had eight million members. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ. Only about 10 to 20% were able to avoid joining."

We note that, as the Pope originally indicated, membership in the HJ was not individual and voluntary but through involuntary conscription.

So, it is actually possible that the Pope is tweaking his actual past, that he was a member, but, as he himself said, involuntarily so. Or, perhaps he originally misrembered and he was actually called up in the "general call up" to a paramilitary unit that served double duty as a military auxilliary.

Jim, YL is far more representative of traditional Conservadox Jews than the author of this blog.

He was involuntary conscripted in both the HY & the army. He was also a DESERTER from that same army. It's not rocket science.

Paul Freedman,

I believe you. Yochanan is a Mench & so are you.

Benedict can't win against this crowd anymore than Jews could win with a jerk like Joe Sobran.

One chucklehead reporter called his speech "restrained, almost cold".

I bet if he was emotional & animated the same crowd would have printed "Pope was a Drama queen & a ham who embarised himself by not acting restrained dignified during an occation that called for solemnity".

I am just so mad at the double standard.

Jim, I don't know if it's against your religion to criticize the Vatican / Pope in any way, shape or form but I get the impression that it is since I have never seen a (religious) Catholic do so.

Orthodox Jews are more focused on criticizing the Pope as a German with a Nazi past (forced on him or not) than they are as the supreme leader in Catholicism. And you see, there is nothing wrong in orthodox Judaism to criticize even the greatest of people when they err or sin. The Bible and Talmud are full of such examples.

John Paul II was always seen as an upstanding person by orthodox Jews since he was a young parish priest. He was even blessed by one of the greatest rabbis of the last generation, the Bluzhover Rebbe. Since Benedict's recent behavior has been puzzling at best, Jews will not refrain from criticizing him as they do to their own rabbis.

Well what do you know! The TIMES gets it right for a change! Thank you maven.

>Jim, I don't know if it's against your religion to criticize the Vatican / Pope in any way, shape or form but I get the impression that it is since I have never seen a (religious) Catholic do so.

I reply: You clearly haven't travelled in orthodox Catholic circles. The Pope biggest critics are often Traditional or orthodox Catholics.

But the issue here is not one of mere criticism. It's about slander(calling the Pope a Nazi & trying to imply he willingly joined the hitler youth) & belitting him(having the resident opportunistic self-hating Jew call him a "small man").

This is not criticism. This is pure bigotry & it is shameful.

Even since he stepted foot into Israel it's been one long game of gotcha. Shameful!

We Catholics deserve better then that.

Why do people always get annoyed when people don't apologise for things that their country did in the past. Things they had no personal control over.

Jim, this blog gets eyeballs by being provocative, above and beyond the personality of the founder and his motivations, capabilities etc. For Israel, maybe his visit is a lightning rod for perceived Catholic sympathy for Islamic concerns that is considered too partial or perhaps it is just showboating.

--Well that didn't take long for you to get back on my shit list Shmarya --

I am sure he's devastated.


--you opportunistic lowlife anti-Catholic closet Atheist!--

As usual - you prove yourself to be a shining example of all that is Catholic.


--Benedict DID NOT JOIN the Hitler youth of his own free will. So in that sense he was never a member. That is what he likely meant.--

Yeah - he was just following orders.

Paul Freedman,

Could be. Still I'm not happy right now.

Emo Hampster/Unequal Time,

Remember you are STILL the guy who objected to me calling an holocaust denier godless.

With "Jews" like you who needs anti-Semites eh?

--Emo Hampster/Unequal Time,--

Thank you for continuing to make my point for me.

--Remember you are STILL the guy who objected to me calling an holocaust denier godless.--

Yes. By the standards of the faith you profess to be a member of, such a judgement is not yours to make.

--With "Jews" like you who needs anti-Semites eh?--

As evidenced by the names you consistently heap upon them, it's pretty obvious that with you........no, we don't need any more.

I am going to make a movie about this:

My Cousin Benny: "What's a Hitler Yute?" (/humor).

>Thank you for continuing to make my point for me.

I reply: What? That you hate Catholics & you hate all Jews who don't hate Catholics like you do? I think you have been very clear in that area.

>>--Remember you are STILL the guy who objected to me calling an holocaust denier godless.--

>Yes. By the standards of the faith you profess to be a member of, such a judgement is not yours to make.

I reply: Sorry but Catholicism DOES NOT teach that. I MAY call a holocaust denier godless.

But it seems to me defending a holocaust denier from the charge of being "godless" is something no Jew should EVER do. But YOU DID IT!! So my only conclusion is you have been lying to the rest of us. You are not really a Jew since the alternative is unthinkable.

>>--With "Jews" like you who needs anti-Semites eh?--

>As evidenced by the names you consistently heap upon them, it's pretty obvious that with you........no, we don't need any more.

I reply: Well I don't believe just because someone is a bigot & might be a Jew he should be treated any differently then any other bigot of any other nationality or religion.

You are a bigot. The fact you might be a Jew(thought I want to believe you are lying like when you lied about your age) does not exempt you from being rebuked.

I have found Equal Time to be a sarcastic, pompous, smartass. He claims to be "orthodox" but proudly boasts that he has never claimed to be "observant". He makes sarcastic comments like "thank you for continuing to make my point for me". Come up with something original. You are a wuss who hides behind his computer. I have your back Jim, and you need that because ET is the kind of guy who would hit you from behind. ET - I am orthodox and living in St. Louis. If you are ever in town, do please look me up. My fist is still yearning to meet your face.

Itchiemayer,

Thanks guy. If Church could or would formally canonize a non-Christian person for Sainthood I would nominate you when you die.

Thanks guy. Jews & Christians of good will are united against the Equal Tim es, Paul Steves & "Bishop" Williamsons of the world.

Sooner or later these clowns will learn we are all better off without their "views".

Shalom Aleckem!

Baruch HaShem!

Jim, the space in the Middle East has become highly "politicized"--maybe if he had stayed longer or dispatched a less charged emissary to the region--like for weeks, with a more relaxed and less symbolic/magesterially "Papal" itinerary there would be more chance for this to have been successful--you get into these bing-bing-bing itineraries with participants ringing changes on them and spinning the atmospherics for this or that--things have a way of not panning out satisfactorially

Paul Freedman,

In short the Curria can't get it's act together?

Yep! So what else is new boychik?:-)

Anyway as a special gift to you I present a link from my friends over at CATHOLIC FRIENDS OF ISRAEL.

Pope Benedict in Israel Blog
http://benedictinisrael.blogspot.com/

Good stuff.

Cheers!

I think R. Lau offered some valuable constructive criticisms the new Pope may want to consider in his future interactions with the Jewish community.

Pope Benedict XVI is pretty new at the job, and I for one think he will get better with time and more experience at the public relations part of the job.

++I reply: You clearly haven't travelled in orthodox Catholic circles. The Pope biggest critics are often Traditional or orthodox Catholics.++

I know this to be true. While I was working on my doctorate at a Christian theological seminary, we had a collegian group made up from ministers, clergy of all kinds of Christian denominations. I was the first rabbi to go through their program; the Catholic representatives, who came from Italy, said that the Catholics in Rome are much more critical of the Pope than we are in the United States and in the West.

However, I think Rabbi Lau should have expressed his criticisms without fanfare and in a privately written memo; shaming a religious leader of over a billion religious followers is really disgusting and reflects poor breeding.

Sometimes the way we offer criticism is more important than what we actually say with our criticism.

Like rock stars, rabbis in Israel seem to be addicted to the photo-opportunity. Well Rabbi Lau, I for one am ashamed of how you publicly expressed your comments--even though I agree with much of what you said. Your ill-timed comments embarrass all of us.

Postscript:

We cannot presume to be God; only God can judge the Pope's heart--not you, me, or anyone.

Chicago Sam,

I don't know who you think you are to attack Rav Lau like that.

"Poor breeding"? You've got some nerve. The man is a Nazi death camp survivor and is more sensitive to these issues concerning a former (forced / willing) Hitler youth member. Holocaust survivors have a lot of issues, much like child sex abuse victims and must be cut more slack. Besides, who knows what else he might know that we don't if he has met with the Pope personally?

Archie,

Rav Lau is blinded by bitterness.

To quote the Catholic League.
"When the pope spoke at Yad Vashem, he said he had come ‘to stand in silence before this monument, erected to honor the memory of the millions of Jews killed in the horrific tragedy of the Shoah.’ Didn’t Avner Shalev hear that?

Or how about these words from the pope? ‘May the names of these victims never perish! May their suffering never be denied, belittled or forgotten!’ Rabbi Lau, never one to miss an opportunity to say it’s never enough, embarrassed his cohorts when he said that the pope’s speech was devoid of compassion.

This is wrong on Rav Lau part. Plain & simple. It's just wrong.

Think about it please.

Archie, I don't know what happened, but you are making some great comments these days (not that I agree with them all). I especially like your first comment on this post.

Archie,

My choice of words may not have been the best, but the point I made is definitely on target. True, Rabbi Lau is a survivor, but even survivors who are in a leadership position must know when to show manners--especially a Chief Rabbi!

I think the Pope's words reflected soulful compassion; whether R. Lau thought so or not is not a matter that should aired for the whole world to see. Perhaps if you took the time to read his speech, you would agree.

My father was also a survivor--no less than R. Lau--and he always showed and treated people--even people he didn't like--proper derech eretz; and I might add, he was no Chief Rabbi, but believe you me, he knew how to conduct himself like a mentsch. Poor behavior from a Chief Rabbi is a Hillul HaShem.

Mind you, I do not disagree with some of his points that R. Lau made, but shaming a leader while he is visiting? Come on now, we can do better than that.

Embarrassing a leader of a billion religious people makes us look almost as disrespectful as the Shiek Temimi.

"Reuven Rivlin accused the pope of not asking for forgiveness". Forgiveness for what? Enough already! Should the Pope take responsibility for the Holocaust? Should a coerced member of the hitler Y"S youth who almost certainly did not participate in any violence against Jews have to apologize for the German people and/or the Catholic church? Hell NO! I will accept Arch's comments re: Rabbi Lau, that with his being a survivor he has a certain perspective so I can excuse his comments although I didn't agree with them.
The church has done their mea culpas, now let us move on. In America, my message for blacks is enough is enough. It is time to move on and advance yourself without welfare. So too, Jews need to say enough with playing the victim card. Never forget, but to expect apologies 65 years after the fact is a bit silly. I criticized any govt. attempts at apologizing to blacks for slavery in this country at this late a date, so I would be a hypocrite if I didn't expect my people to never forget, but to move on. The islamo-fascists are the ones we need to be focused on, not the catholic church.

I did not analyze everything Rabbi Lau said but even if he erred here, it is to be expected of a Nazi death camp survivor. Most camp survivors are even afflicted with some kind of mental illness.

And knowing anything about Rabbi Lau, any such error would definitely be induced by his near-death experiences at the hands of Benedict's countrymen. Even Shmarya who almost never misses an opportunity to shoot from the hip at anyone wearing a balck hat, has previously described Rabbi Lau as a "nice man".

Archie,
So it's OK to bash Benedict because he was born German as long as you are a holocaust survivor?
(The fact B16 was a teenager during the Rise of Hitler & his family was anti-Nazi not withstanding. Because of Benedict's German ethnicity he has collective guilt? Right?)

So then is it OK to blame all Jews for the Death of Christ because Caiaphas handed him over to the Romans?

You see what I'm getting at. What makes Rav Lau's actions so shameful is the fact he is adopting the racism & collective racism that has oppressed his people for 1500 years & calmunated in the Holocaust.

That is the problem. He should know better.
I pray he comes to his senses.

Jim, thanks for the link. Yeah, the idea is we are going to have this dignified journey/pilgrimage and then we'll include this and this and this and on paper it becomes this symbolic synergistic deal--but given passions and prejudices and the reality that the Church stands in different relationship and proximity to different constituencies--your higher profile pilgrimage takes on the guise of a pinata procession

The Nazi Party (National Socialist German Workers party) membership rolls were captured intact by the allies. If you were NOT a member or a member of the SS. Then you were NOT considered are 'true' believer and start with a clean 'slate' without much fuss after the war.

By the way, Oskar Shindler was a Nazi Party member.

"So it's OK to bash Benedict because he was born German"

I don't think there is any one item that led to the outburst. There is also still a lot of disappointment over the bungling with Holocaust denier Williamson.

Ban Benny bashing.

>There is also still a lot of disappointment over the bungling with Holocaust denier Williamson.

I reply: Yet THAT lead to the Vatican saying it was a SIN to deny the holocaust(which it is BTW).

My fellow orthodox Catholics have been using that as a stick to beat the Usual Suspects.

http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/

So why the kneejerk negativity?

But it seems to me defending a holocaust denier from the charge of being "godless" is something no Jew should EVER do. But YOU DID IT!! So my only conclusion is you have been lying to the rest of us. You are not really a Jew since the alternative is unthinkable.


I didn't see the original argument between you two, but I'm not sure what you are upset about.

The guys in the KKK groups deny the Shoa, and they are Christians. So, they obviously are not godless. Achmedinijad denies the Shoa, but he is a Muslim, so he's not godless either.

They might not be very godly by espousing their views, and they might be terribly awful representatives of their religions, but they are not godless atheists.

There are people who believe in a deity (or even the Deity) who are Shoa deniers, and there are godless people - like Michael Shermer (an atheist and a non-Jew) - who fight the Shoa deniers.

Believing in G-d doesn't automatically put a person exclusively on one side of the fence or the other.

Jim -

Just so you know, I didn't post the above to wade into your Jews vs Catholics issue with the other posters. I was just puzzled by your statement quoted in the comment.

Jim, you are highly offended by criticism without taking into consideration all the water that has collected under the bridge for many centuries.

Pope John Paul II did not act in any manner that aroused fear or suspicion and was therefore praised to almost no end by Jews. But when someone, especially a Pope with a possible / perceived connection to Nazis, sends suspicious or mixed messages, there is a lot of angst that emerges over the Vatican's role in the Holocaust and vicious persecutions of non-Christians going back half an eternity.

Before you blame Jews who were dehumanized and almost murdered by Nazis for "knee-jerk reactions", maybe you should be a little more tolerant considering where they are coming from.

Rabbi Lau was starved, whipped and terrorized with guard dogs among other things. Some child sex abuse victims even develop animosity towards people that are kind to them. Will you also sit there and pontificate (excuse the pun) that abused children have no business acting out of line against people who didn't abuse them?

I think a little more sensitivity on your part is in order.

>I didn't see the original argument between you two, but I'm not sure what you are upset about.

I reply: I'll give your props for admiting that upfront.

>The guys in the KKK groups deny the Shoa, and they are Christians. So, they obviously are not godless. Achmedinijad denies the Shoa, but he is a Muslim, so he's not godless either.

I reply: You are narrowly defining "godless" as some form of Atheism.
I didn't call the holocaust denier who posted here an Atheist.

I called him "godless". That is someone who is impious & spouts wickedness.

The Emo Hampster/Unequal Time, filled with extreme personal hatred of me & my religion clearly thought it was more important to bash a Christian who hates anti-Semitism than godless trash who tells lies about the mass murder of his own people.

Nice fellow.

>They might not be very godly by espousing their views, and they might be terribly awful representatives of their religions, but they are not godless atheists.

I reply: I never called the holocast denier an Atheist. Some rational Atheists IMHO might be what we call "unconsence anonymous Believers" & are not godless in their hearts.

I would like to think Carl Sagan was one of them. He once said "I don't believe in God but try to live my life as if there was one & I think if there is a God He would love me."

I would be godless myself if I did not acknolege this came from Divine Grace from Above.

>There are people who believe in a deity (or even the Deity) who are Shoa deniers, and there are godless people - like Michael Shermer (an atheist and a non-Jew) - who fight the Shoa deniers.

I reply: Shermer along with Michael Ruse &Quiten Smith are but a the few of the Rational Atheists out there.

Unlike retards like Dawkins, Hitchens, PZ Myers & or Harris (& sometimes Dennett sometimes not) who are kneejerk secular fundamentalist anti-rational chuckleheads.

They are try godless which I can forgive. But they are idiots & that I have trouble forgiving after all I am only flesh & blood.

>Believing in G-d doesn't automatically put a person exclusively on one side of the fence or the other.

I reply: Your mistake comes from assuming I believe "godless" solely means "Atheist".

Historically Jews & Christians have called immoral polytheists "godless". They obviously believe in deities.

Hope this clears this up.

>Jim, you are highly offended by criticism without taking into consideration all the water that has collected under the bridge for many centuries.

I reply: We could say the same about Blacks in regards to Slavery. But does that mean a black man is exempt from treating me(I'm white BTW) justly & I should just take it because his ancestor was oppressed by someone the same color as me? I think not.

>Pope John Paul II did not act in any manner that aroused fear or suspicion and was therefore praised to almost no end by Jews.

I reply; Well that is not really true. He pushed for the canonization of St Maximillian Kolbe & St Edith Stein. St. Maximillian was once editor of a Catholic Newsletter that I think once made some anti-Semtic statements. St Edith of course was a Jewish convert..enough said.

John Paul II did a lot to piss off Jews. You a short memory.

>But when someone, especially a Pope with a possible / perceived connection to Nazis, sends suspicious or mixed messages, there is a lot of angst that emerges over the Vatican's role in the Holocaust and vicious persecutions of non-Christians going back half an eternity.

I reply: Let's cut to the chase. Bottom line you want me to acknowlege & understand the feelings of Jews. Ok I acknowlege them & understand. But what I'm saying is it goes both ways. Otherwise on the practical level we will always have a disfuctional relationship.

>Before you blame Jews who were dehumanized and almost murdered by Nazis for "knee-jerk reactions", maybe you should be a little more tolerant considering where they are coming from.

I reply: You misunderstand. I don't "blame Jews". I blame SPECIFIC individuals who happen to be Jews. I repudiate collectivism & collective guilt for anyone.

>Rabbi Lau was starved, whipped and terrorized with guard dogs among other things.

I reply: All that happened to St Maximillian accept unlike Rav Lau he didn't survive. 3 million Poles died next too the Jews. They count for something.

>Some child sex abuse victims even develop animosity towards people that are kind to them. Will you also sit there and pontificate (excuse the pun) that abused children have no business acting out of line against people who didn't abuse them?

I reply: I do understand their pain BUT reason & justice must still be served.

We owe it to G-d. Do you disagree?

>I think a little more sensitivity on your part is in order.

I reply: I'm not against sensitivity but YOU must acknowelege it goes both ways. Otherwise this Jew/Catholic slam dance will never end & I so tire of it as I'm sure you do as well.

Cheers & Shalom Archie.

Jim, personally I woudn't make too much of the distinction between "atheism" and "godless" or "godless" and "Believer" in the other direction--it comes very close to the apologetics of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in which good things are attributed to a group and then when someone from that group does something bad it is claimed that they are not "real" Scots/Catholics/Jews etc.--but this can be done endlessly. Calling a demonstrably non-atheist believer "godless" is another variation of the "not a true Scotsman/Christian/theist" brief imo:

----

from little green footballs:

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing.

The term was coined by Antony Flew, who gave an example of a Scotsman who sees a newspaper article about a series of sex crimes taking place in Brighton, and responds that no Scotsman would do such a thing. When later confronted with evidence of another Scotsman doing even worse acts, his response is that no true Scotsman would do such a thing, thus disavowing membership in the group “Scotsman” to the criminal on the basis that the commission of the crime is evidence for not being a Scotsman. However, this is a fallacy as there is nothing in the definition of “Scotsman” which makes such acts impossible.

----

I called him "godless". That is someone who is impious & spouts wickedness

Okay - I see where you're coming from. I was going by the dictionary definition*, "not acknowledging a deity or divine law," but I realize that it is also used as you have used it. So, I get what you mean. Not having read the original argument you had, I was a bit confused. Thank you for for clarifying.

(*Not saying that in a snotty manner. Just that that was how I was interpreting it.)


Some rational Atheists IMHO might be what we call "unconsence anonymous Believers" & are not godless in their hearts.

I do get that impression myself with some of them.


I would like to think Carl Sagan was one of them. He once said "I don't believe in God but try to live my life as if there was one & I think if there is a God He would love me."

Carl Sagan had a lot of class. His widow, Ann Druyan, who is also an unbeliver, speaks of the Universe and its wonder in terms that are almost spiritual. She believes in promoting the view of the Universe as filled with awe without the concept of a deity. However, in one interview I heard with her on an atheist podcast, the interviewer almost sounded a bit nervous about the way she spoke concerning the Unverse and said something like "What you're saying almost sounds spiritual." She clarified that to her it was not, but it was kind of an weird moment.


like Dawkins, Hitchens, PZ Myers & or Harris (& sometimes Dennett sometimes not) who are kneejerk secular fundamentalist anti-rational chuckleheads.

Harris is a little odd. Despite his association with Dawkins and Hitchens, he definitely has an interest in religions and spirituality, and he seems, to me, to be searching for a way to have spirituality without a deity. Some atheists call him (jokingly) a closet Buddhist, and that would be one way to do something somewhat spiritual without having to believe in a deity. He's made many strongly worded statements (even obnoxious ones) supporting atheism, etc. But he also sounds like he's interested in the experience of the spiritual, not just the intellectual study of it. Like I said, I find him odd.

Thanks again for the reply.

Shalom.

>Calling a demonstrably non-atheist believer "godless" is another variation of the "not a true Scotsman/Christian/theist" brief imo:

I reply: I have an easy response to my good friend Paul Freedmen. Three words:
Jews for Jesus.

Now are they "not true Jews" in the opinion of most of the people here?:-)

(Oh I'm going to do some hard Purgatory for that one).:-)

Anyway Paul does have a good point all jokularity aside. But I still believe extreme immorality & the willful embrace of evil is godless regasrdless if you think God exists or not.

Cheers my friends.:-)

Oh & Peace Be with Youn Shine the Light.:-)

Jim, no by the rules of the "game of Judaism"--they are Christians; doctrinally, really, is there any difference between saying somebody is a "Jew for Jesus" and, in the widest historical understanding of the evolution of the Church and saying that one is, as a new shoot from the old branch, a Christian, or, *the reverse*--isn't any Christian in Christian understanding a "Jew for Jesus"?

But I think most Jews would say that nowadays, by the definition of our game, Jews for Jesus are no longer playing klezmer but jazz

And, although it is an interesting variant on the true-Scotsman it is actually a somewhat more profound conundrum--Jews who would deny that Jews for Jesus are "real Jews" are not saying that, well, impiety couldn't be the hallmark of a "real Jews" but that heresy disqualifies--the debate becames theological

as in saying that Arianism (*NOT* with a "y"--different topic) is not "real Christianity" etc.

hmmmmmm, though folks do make the leap to charging impiety, extreme immorality and what else not, you over there in the front row, put down that stone...

Paul Freedman you do get exactly what I am trying to say.

>hmmmmmm, though folks do make the leap to charging impiety, extreme immorality and what else not, you over there in the front row, put down that stone...

I reply: For me it's more like, you there in the front! Yeh I'm talking to you jerk face! Stop denying the holocaust!

People wouldn't sin if most sins were not enjoyable. But the wise man learns that that pleasure is short lived & always comes at a price.

Jim, I agree, but unfortunately personally seem closer to St. Augustine's dilemma than salvation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4cCFrcmxc

it’s obvious that Pope Pius XII was …NO …enemy of the Nazis,

NO MORE than POPE Ratzinger was an enemy to the Nazis…

Hitler an X convict… & a criminal, charged & convicted of trying to violently overthrow the old German Government wrote a whole book CONDEMNING the JEWS, declaring they should be persecuted & thrown out of society…

Hitler { in his book [ ~~spoke harshly against the CURRENT religions `actions / of Rome & of Protestants ~as well for being good to the Jews..& for not... CONTINUING ON...to persecute them as viciously & forcefully ..

as THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.....HAD,,. been Persecuting & murdering the Jews for the last 2000 yrs.....

?... Pius XII was another catholic whore, who signed a contract with this JEW HATER

THE POPE *& vatican SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH catholic HITLER demanding ALL GERMAN bishops SWEAR on the HOLY GOSPELS & ON GOD COMPLETE & LOYALITY to catholic HITLER

read ART. 16 OF ....Hitler's Concordat with the Catholic Church

There is no ....way to prove.. He saved a million Jews....its all assumption./....& fantasy...junk history...

Catholics rely on propaganda whore... Italian...catholic ... news ~ papers ,, & American...liberal...whore...organizations....like the NY Times....( what a Joke )...for their claims . & other unfactual.,/ inventions....fantasy books..

& on the word of either ignorant or desperate.....people...( Jews at the time..

in an Anti semite ,satanic ,,Italy.....) .looking for acceptance back into Italian life after the war...

THEY WOULD HAVE SAID....anything...to be accepted in Italy....and given a hope for a halfway decent life...

It is a sick joke

..while they have no records of their claims....

The facts prove...He was completely publicly...SILENT...concerning the murder of Jews....by Germany & Catholic.....Italy...who { his RESPONSIBLE....NOBLE.. church....helped Hitler...

.Italy shipped out thousands,, of Jews...to be butchered...gassed,,,& put to death ,,,,~!---,the pope never said a word...to his faithful... RESPONSIBLE....Italians...

At the end of the WAR...Italy.../ Rome hid a small percentage of Jews ..in Rome .......after Catholic Italy surrendered,,,,...only to make themselves ,,,,look good,,, after siding with, Helping in & fighting....along side with Germany..

They lost...

The Pope's first responsibility is to Christ and His Church ...{.what a joke.....

THE ENTIRE....CHURCH....JOINED... Hitler all... of Italy....HIS CHURCH....joined the Nazis.....if he was responsible He would have begged for Italians...to not Join Hitler....*..& stop shipping out innocent....children men & woman to be tortured...

responsibility to Christ and His Church ?..

..the catholic church is not Christ's Church,,,...it is Satan's.....whore...

Hitler was not the lone....monster....out killing all Jews....he had helpers....people in Italy.....Catholics....the POPES church..... GERMAN catholic head,,,, bishops ordered .....[ by the pope ]…. to SWEAR on the HOLY GOSPELS & ON GOD COMPLETE & LOYALITY to catholic HITLER….

.Catholics in Germany, & italy,,,,, the POPES church~~ joined hitler…

& the pope was more interested in remaining .,..in power…in his seat of satan …on His… RESPONSIBLE…..throne & popular.. ride….than interested.. in stopping the slaughter of innocent millions…..by His congregation members …

They attacked…Greece.. & Ethiopia Russia..& other small countries……HIS CHURCH,,

[ CATHOLIC... ,ITALIANS....were butchering their neighbors...OVER power.....and is was not his responsibility ,,,to demand they STOP ?

Nazis, catholics , protestants atheists * & ALL groups had victims / heros ...of individuals...who refused to go along with the majority...of JEW KILLERS..

The Roman Catholic church has never, ever been a friend to the Jew....)( when in power.. NOR the bible believer

HITLER HAD 3 ARABIC ISLAMIC DIVISISIONS...IN HIS S.S///ARMY ....

Popes claim in catholic catechism 2 N.D. Editiion. # 841 that''

muslims;...these profess to hold the faith of abraham, and together with us [catholics]…they adore the one, merciful god, mankind’s judge on the last day

MAY 1985 SATANS POPE John Paul II repeats ROMES DECLARATION TO AUDIENCE OF THOUSANDS

THE POPE said: “CATHOLICS Muslims, WE have MANY THINGS IN COMMON as BELIEVERS and as human beings…WE BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD

,,,THE CATHOLIC GOD IS THE MUSLIM GOD

THATS WHY YOUR POPE CAN KISS & STROKE AND BOW TO THE UNHOLY QURAN

Golda Meir. ON 1/20/1973..

DECARED …The man of the Cross, who heads the church whose symbol is the Cross, under which Jews were killed for generations.

I could not escape the feeling. It stuck with me. And he felt it – that a Jewess was sitting opposite him.”

http://www.personsfamous.com/Women/125/Golda%20Mabovitz.html

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19730120&id=8NgNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zGwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7329,2786850

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19730120&id=I7gMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7F8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7134,3575460

Representatives of science have often made an attempt to arrive at fundamental judgments with respect to values and ends on

the basis of scientific method, and in this way have set themselves in opposition to religion. These conflicts have all

sprung from fatal errors. (Albert Einstein, 1941)

For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on

mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress…..

ALBERT GOES ON TO SAY THAT WE MUST ” give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the HANDS OF PRIESTS.

(Albert Einstein, 1941)

Catholics like to PICK OUT certian HIGH STANDARD poppular & RESPECTED people and make claim to their MERITS & USE these people to LIE & eXagerate the Roman Catholic INVOLVMENT in their lives

& PRETEND & have the WORLD THINK that These POPPULAR & Special people are somehow involved in OR in support or in praise of their CATHOLIC CHURCH.

whEN it is the total & complete OPPOSITE({ & A LIE })

A JESUIT PRIEST started a RUMOR that Albert Einstein, had Converted from atheism BY THE INFLUENCE OF THIS JESUIT PRIEST

IN a LETTER letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, Albert Einstein, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused

Einstein to convert from atheism

Albert Einstein, WROTE ,…..” I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life

and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. ”

This Jesuit TRIED to LIE & CLAIM that Einstein had CONVERTED to Christianity & THIS CATHOLIC PRIEST had LED to HIS CONVERSION..

THIS IS WHAT CATHOLICS DO….see details below..

http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/7E0rpzhFrFY-albert-einstein-atheist.aspx

http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Was-Einstein-an-Atheist-.htm

Catholics dont like to see these QUOTES such as the one above……FOR THEY ARE MORE ACURATE & REALISTIC with hostoric FACT..

INSTEAD catholics rant on & on about such things as ./ HERE AGAIN ,,WE SEE…. This catholic Website here below Tells another lie of Einstein

ttp://www.catholic.com/home/contact.asp

This catholic Website quotes Einstein as saying

Quote

Albert Einstein: “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty.

But in reality & in dealing with the facts …

.WE FIND the truth is that Albert never once mentioned the CATHOLIC CHURCH doing anything to save anyone..

EVER ONCE NEVER

He simply said THE CHURCH…stood against HITLER…”

It is what Catholicism must DO in order to ramp up a junk history mythical asumptive rendering of a QUOTE.

They in turn Continue the lie that all these people were praising their Pope for saving some Jews when in fact the QUOTES are

not true quotes OR Catholics are CITING A NEWSPAPER propaganda PEICE / … Italian…catholic … news ~ papers ,, & American…liberal……organizations….like the NY Times………..

what a Joke )……………for their claims .

& other unfactual.,/ inventions….fantasy books..

& MOST BLASPHEMOUSLY & HORIDLY on the word of either ignorant or desperate…..people…( Jews at the time..

JEWS …..in an Anti semite ,satanic ,,Italy…..) .looking for acceptance back into Italian life after the war…

THEY WOULD HAVE SAID….anything…to be accepted in Italy….and given a hope for a halfway decent life…

THIS IS ALL IT IS

Jews were forced to praise the pope & were compelled to heap praise upon the Roman Catholic Church because all the Jews who

had been in Concentrations camps & in Hiding had to go back to the Catholic Countries from which they had been shipped out of.

their Homes, property, wealth, Families

& lives were GONE They came back to these Catholic Countries From Which they were

shipped out of ( having all their possesions and very souls STOLEN From them BY Roman Catholics .

Of course Desperate Jews were saying Great things about this Raging Seething Monster of a Church that was in control of &

responsible for wrecking their LIVES for the last 2000 yrS,,

CATHOLICS LOVE TO QUOTE Golda Meir….. another Jew who felt compelled to tell a lie about Pope Pius in order to help her

fellow jews….Regain their lives back RETURNING TO THESE anti semitic CATHOLIC COUNTRIES.

But these Quotes are not stating REALITY …they are JUST showing the low level of pure degradation that Hitler ^& the

Vatican / ( Italy & Germany ) had placed on these JEWS to where they were forced ( EVEN AFTER THE WAR ) to say such lies /

PRAISING the pope & concerning the Catholic Church…JUST TO SURVIVE IN AN ANTISEMITE CATHOLIC EUROPE..

Catholics have clung to the desperate & rash words of these poor JEWS like a PARASITE.

Bless Israel

reX loves,.... U~~~ to the end

tHINK ABOUT THESE FACTS

cATHOLICS ARE STILL TRYING TO HURT YOU

NOTICE & ASK YOURSELF....

Y DID.. CaTholics & MuSlims~ waiT~ unTilL ~800 -yrs.. AFTER /-Jesus ChrisT \~ To Declare …THAT Allah ~ Was God of the Bible ?

whY,- DO Catholics DEMAND~!- ~ThaT~~ALLAH---of ISLAM…IS -…{--.Jesus Christ …}

….ALLAHs THE gOD~Of…the pope…/The POPE~Kissed ALLAH’s Quran, Declaring.~ALLAH../GOD.. of ..the bible & of .ALL chrisT~ians !


THE POPE said: “CATHOLICS & Muslims, WE BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD http://www.letusreason.org/RC25.htm & http://focusonjerusalem.com/tiesthatbind.html


,,,THE CATHOLIC GOD IS ~ THE MUSLIM GOD ….


THAT’S~ WHY… Your POPE ..~CAN- & DID ~KISS & STROKE ~ & DID - BOW…. To the Un ~ holy.. QURAN

HERE is The – AUCTUAL PHOTO ~POPE KISSIN~ HIS..~ K.K.K.-URAN http://images.google.com/images?q=photos%20%20of%20pope%20kissing%20quran&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi


Furthermore~… the CATECHISM of THE CATHOLIC CHURCH 2 nd. ~ ED. # 841... DECLARES …

'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the creator.... IN THE FIRST PLACE ….. amongst whom ARE '''THE MUSLIMS;...

...MUSLIMS; profess to hold the faith of abraham, & together WITH US [CATHOLICS]...THEY ADORE the ONE, merciful GOD,

,,,THE CATHOLIC GOD IS ~ THE MUSLIM GOD

iF muslims & catholics CAN PROVIDE a single shread of EVIDENCE proving ISLAM eXisted B..4 the 7 th CENTURY ... reX WILL faLL on his FACE...& accept Allah & teach ISLAM


IZZ SLAM B~ 4~ the 7th CENTURY has -no preserved record, BIBLES-NO PRESERVED BOOKS-No Historic Maps-no geographic records-~-

~IZZ SLAM B~ 4~ the 7th CENTURY has -NO HISTORY OF ISLAM -no CHRONICLES -NO ARTIFACTS

~IZZ SLAM B~ 4~ the 7th CENTURY has -NO Genealogies of ANYONE FROM ADAM…TO …A bloody, WOODEN splintered RAPE staff .OR a bloody SWORD

SEARCH ~` Enternet & Librarys …Thousands ~historic ~ VALIDATIONS~ for bible eXist Thousands ~years AGO…buT…NOT A single 1. ~/ historical FACT eXists to PROOV~IZZ SLAM eXisTed ..B.. 4./ the ..7..th century

Does archaeology support the Quran ? ABSOLUTLY NOT ! AMAZING http://isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html

ARCHAEOLOGICAL ANALYSIS of the Quran PROOVES~ Quran to be a complete LIE / FRAUD / and IGNORANCE READ THE FACTS… http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm


The entire Quran is ~ ALL ONE HUGE Historical, and archaeological,~ ERROR http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/haman.html

BIBLICAL HISTORY ~ Perfect & Correctly precise ~Scholars, Historians & Archaeologists ~GO TO THE BIBLE For Assistance, help and Reference

NO ONE On The PLANET,~ HAS EVER GONE TO A SINGLE PAGE - in the QURAN..~ for Historical & Archaeological ~Assistance, help OR References..~ IT would be a LIE..


google the bible and history u get thousands of facts proving thousands of years......the bibles data is correct

google the quran ,...u have not one single fact....proving islam eXisted b...4...the 7. th centurySee how Mohammad plagiarizes the bible & also IGNORANTLY ~ CLAIMED & wrote in QURAN~/ that the Jews Believed in Jesus;
http://www.sillyallah.com/2007/11/mathematical-scientific-and-historical.html


IZZ SLAM B~ 4~ the 7th CENTURY has . NOTHING but a MOON DEITY & IDOL..ALLAH....transformed..into a JIZZSLAM~ING arabian PIMP.....................................................


& CATHOLICS DEMAND,,,,ALLAH,,,,,,WHICH MEANS A curse......in the hebrew....... THIS GOD OF ISLAM.... IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE & god of all CATHOLICS


CATHOLICS HAVE betrayed {SPIT} on~the God of the Bible...the Church of Jesus..& The Lord, savior...WITH A KISS.....Kissing the quran...& ROME ...CALLS " ALLAH~/ GOD OF THE HOLY BIBLE & ALL CATHOLICS

...& ROME DEMANDS...IN ITS CATECHISM...........& POPES.....DOCUMENTED,,,QUOTES.......CALLS " ALLAH~/ GOD OF THE HOLY BIBLE & ALL CATHOLICS


IZZ SLAM slithered allong in the 7 th CENTURY...DEMANDING....FROM ITS -{ ~pope kissed *&* RESPECTING vile QURAN~ } ALL JEWS *&* CHRIST-IANS.. WERE SENT TO HELL

/ ENSLAVED / SLAUGHTERED / OR CONVERT..../ JESUS is not . SON of GOD, / JESUS did NOT die on the cross...is not LORD, & ALL WHO DECLARE are unbeleivers.& EVIL & DAMNED...

catholics call this QURAN.... ANOTHER WAY...PATH & .....ANOTHER FAITH OF ABRAHAM
ANOTHER NAME OF ROMES GOD.....ALLAH........WHILE THEIR POPE KISSES.....THIS QURAN...........


QURAN DECLARES...BEATING WOMEN, { your WIFES –for anything- SEX with LITTLE 6 - 9 YR old BABY GIRLS.............. enslaving women..KILLING ANY WHO DISAGREE....with ISLAM........

. Slaughtering Jews & Christians./ denying.& profaning.jesus christ....is ALL HOLY.. Right & MOST PURE....

the pope HAS BETRAYED...the church of YA-SHAH.. & Gods holy word & sacrifice & gospel...kissing the most debased, vile book of Lucifer ever written...


the quran~~~~~~~~~~

iT WOULD BE BETTER THAT THE POPE.....KISSED...HITLERS MEIN KAMPF Adolf Hitler 1889-1945.....IT IS WRITTEN WITH A ..LESS EVIL.......MESSAGE


HITLERS MEIN KAMPF IS a horrible book But the Quran is the most Evil book to ever be scribed on the earth..

It is ALL for the TOTAl torture & END of ALL JEWS.

THE POPE KISSES this BOOK & declares its LISTED GOD ALLAH, is

GOD OF THE BIBLE ?

what ?

hebrews brothers sisters fathers mothers

think

The chief Rabbi in Rome, is the last PERSON you would want to believe on any matters..

ROME & Catholic Italy had just attacked & launched a massive, hellish WAR on its neighbors

for NO REASON...... MURDERING Thousands of Africans, Egyptians , Greece & others ...

ROME & Catholic Italy had JUST Joined up with Hitler, IT took 22,000 {

twenty two thousand}.....] US American tooops DYING, IN ITALY, for the USA to defeat Catholic Italy....

We dont trust the word of a handfull of The VATICAN puppets in Rome calling themselves

JEWS...or RABBI.. ..WE LOOK AT THE FACTS......

The Jews in Italy had just EXPERIENCED a massive roundup they were LOOKING for acceptance back into a satanic , bloody HATFULL & WRETCHED ITALIAN life...

They had absolutly nowhere to Go......NO OTHER HOPE.....or Home ...& YOU want to use the

WORD of a couple desperate, manipulated, NEEDY, (( quick to speak favorable )) jews

trying to desperatly HANG ON to their Homes & reputation in a satanic vile perverted

murdering SOCALIST BLOOD SHEDDING Catholic Italy... ?

If the RABI would have told the truth .....HE WOULD have been TORTURED, KILLED & his family probably raped & killed.... Just speaking a bad word would have sealed His doom..

The Germans HELD JEWISH scientists FAMILIES hosTage ....FORCING the JEW scientists to

make weapons & new inventions for the NAZI MILITARY.

This was the situation with ANY JEW praising the Catholic CHURCH in any catholic Government ....

This is trully a horrible things catholic try to do...


This is so sickening....

FOR THE REAL FACTS in Spain LETS not rely on RAVING, Foaming at the mouth Catholics in a fantasy land of LIES...

Just simply Go and Read what

the.......SPAINISH.....~~ .. { NEWS PAPER..}..=~

~THE,~~~Press ~~UNDER...the Roman Catholic, Spanish dictator, Franco,


published on the 3rd of May, 1945, the day of Hitler's death.


It said,


"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity." It is therefore

understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death,.................................."


Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr,


God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory."


This funeral oration of Adolph Hitler was voiced by the Holy See itself, under the cover of Franco's press. It is a communique of the Vatican via Madrid....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hitler was a real old fassion ...OLD school Catholic.. FOLLOWING catholic tradition..

& the pope & VATICAN / put Him into power....KNOWING he was a Jew Hater...

It was no big deal.....The catholic chrch had been force converting Jews & MURDERING Jews for the last 200 yrs.....

Hitler only reminded THEE catholics....what they BELIEVED.....


BLAME JEWS ?.......Jews are to blame for inventing computers, medecine,

Neuclear power ENERGY & great weapons.

BLAME JEWS ?......The cell phone was developed by jews

Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco BY jews

BLAME JEWS ?. Lets stick to the facts & stop trying to stick catholic LIES on Desperate Jews .......

NOTICE....

When the UNITED nations of the world TOOK a vote to Give hebrews their HOMELand back.,,

THE POPE was AGAIN silent....

WHEN the USA,,,,,tried against all odds to GEt Israel into the United nations, so that their voice could be heard JUST A LITTLE louder...


AGAIn,,,,,the pope WAS completly SILENT...


Catholics are fooling No one..,,,,,,


What a JOKE

End of catholic-islamic heresy that decieves the world will come soon,in the soon coming WW3,along with all other false religions.After the war all those who live on earth will be members of the true religion of God-aka God's church-aka non feminist protestantism.After that rapture(coming of christ before the 7 year tribulation period to take away true believers from earth) will occur.

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