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May 13, 2009

Rabbi Protests Scantily Clad Dummies

Threatens to revoke kosher supervision of stores displaying immodest mannequins.

Rabbi protests against scantily clad dummies

JERUSALEM (AFP) — A rabbi in the Israeli city of Tiberias has called for a boycott of stores that display mannequins in bathing suits, saying they "elicit sorrow" and damage the souls of passers-by.

Rabbi Rafael Cohen, chief of the northern city's kosher division, said the stores would face the wrath of the religious community and lose their kosher certification if they failed to comply, according to the Maariv daily on Wednesday.

Cohen said the mannequins and "obscene photographs" showing models in swimsuits or underwear "elicit sorrow among the passers-by on the road."

He has threatened to publish a list of stores that continue such displays, saying "residents of Tiberias should not set foot in stores of that kind, and that will cause them irreversible damage."

"Modest" mannequins, he said, are all right. "But there are mannequins that are really revolting, mannequins in bathing suits that damage our souls."

One lingerie merchant in Tiberias quoted by Maariv said "a store like this has to have a mannequin, but the religious women are excellent clients and buy lots of underwear, so I don't know what to do."

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The rabbis are fully-clad dummies. As long as it's not a blowup doll, what perv gets off on an asexual nude mannikin? They are making Judaism a laughingstock.

According to a source in Israel, the AP report is ambiguous. The restaurant displayed a picture of Shmarya & Kelsey blogging in nothing but boxer briefs which it headlined "scantily clad dummies".

ultra orthodox judaism has morphed into a cult primarily focusing on separation of the sexes and weird food restrictions.
they are as connected to the judaism of old as the habits of Mork from Ork, who was orignally a character on Happy Days, resembles life in 1950's America.
It is a bastardization, a misreading, the result of what happens when you make the wrong turn on a road 40 times in a row.
I feel bad for everyone stuck in it.

I'm tired this morning so maybe Yochanan can do a parody of Barenaked Ladies or Crash Test Dummies.

critical, you are living up to your name.

I don't know what qualifies as "ultra" for you but I suspect you are making a sweeping indictment of all because of some.

As I posted on another thread, I married a Christian woman, a German from Stuttgart I met while I was serving in the military. My parents, my mother especially, was very much opposed to the marriage. That was her problem, not ours.

Had I married an ultra-Orthodox woman, I might as well have married a Martian, we'd have had about that much in common.

Back to this thread: The rabbi who's gotten his male titties in an uproar over this is a fully-clothed dummy. Give me some barenaked ladies (of the female gender, unlike the band) anytime.

Rabbi Cohen is aroused by mannequins in bathing suits. No more mannequins in bathing suits. If we had to ban from public view everything that aroused rabbis, how would our little boys get to school in the morning?

Apikoros,

Are you glad you got that off your chest?

Of course no orthodox woman in her right mind would marry YOU given the sad state you are in.

I am shocked and appalled. Bathing suits are being sold in a waterfront resort city? What's next? The sun rising in the east?

Rabbi Quixote needs to find another hobby.

Kosher supervision services have a right to impose rules on decorum and religiously speaking, the dummies are in bad taste. If the restaurant has a problem, no law in Israel forces them to go under kosher supervision.

Well, the Haredi rock stars have done it again; I think they believe their followers are the real dummies,lacking any measure of self-control. The Haredi rabbi are foolish if they think they can control another person's actions, let alone their thoughts.

In the spirit of hilarity (but not Hillary) Archie, even you must find this psak din ridiculous. But again, I've been wrong about you before ...

AB said ..."no law in Israel forces them to go under kosher supervision"

Baruch HaShem!

well, you gotta be careful, next thing you know they'll be dancing together

Arch: You picked the wrong character from "All in the Family" to use as your nom-du-guerre. You are an unholy melange of a dingbat and a meathead.

It depends how life-like the mannequin is to make it a halacha issue. If it is not life-like then it is in bad taste religiously since it is promoting the wrong ideas.

Surely a rabbi, even one from the ultra-left YCT camp, knows that a life-like image showing cleavage, etc, is forbidden.

Actually Apikoros, Rob Reiner's character is a good fit for you. A "Meathead" Pollock married to a girl who's father can't stand him.

I object as well. There are those that would have you believe that there is rampant agalmatophilia in the Jewish community, and such a brazen display of inanimate sexuality effectively proves the rumors.

Of course, we all know that the few reported cases of agalmaphiliacs are mere blue moon situations, and reports of its frequency are only being proliferated through leftist apikorsim and those with agendas against the rabbis.

All the same, it is well known that, if one might believe he saw a respected person sinning with a display dummy, one is obligated to assume that he has done teshuva. Reporting such activity to the police is mesira and can get you killed by bet din.

Disclaimer: All of the above was a joke. Yes, all of it. For those of you without a sense of humor, I apologize for confusing you with my seemingly inflammatory rhetoric. 'Twas all in irony.

It's "Polack," dinghead. One "P." Speaking of misspellings, "Dinghead" describes you perfectly, especially if one letter is changed. I'll let you figure out which one.

Sometimes these displays are crossing the line.


Apikoros, that sure was a mouthful. Don't get tongue-tied now on those pearls of wisdom.

Sarachek was in Postville yesterday "on business".

Does anyone know what he is up to?

Several hundred thousand by now.

"Rabbi Protests Scantily Clad Dummies"

Someone should advise him to stop watching reruns of Baywatch.


This latest Haredi reaction is totalitarian in scope and nature. I can see the ranks of the agnostics and atheists swell with this kind of horse manure being shoveled by the buckets.

Maybe the Haredi rabbi was afraid that seeing a naked dummy might lead to mixed dancing. The only real dummies are the rabbis who make such narishkeit decrees and the idiots who listen to them.

Chicago Sam, are you that shockingly ignorant of how the Chazal, Rishonim & Acharonim detail the issur of Lo Sasuru or has it been clipped from the Taryag Mitzvos at Chovavei to be replaced with some New Age eco-friendly prohibition?

Dummy Woman (apologies to Roy Orbison)

Dummy woman starin' down the street
Dummy woman, the kind who's indiscreet
Dummy woman, I don't believe you
You're not the emes
No one could look as good as this mess
Rachmones!

Dummy woman, won't you hard-on me
Dummy woman, I couldn't help but see
Dummy woman, and you look treifeh as can be
Are you lonely just like me

Dummy woman, stop a while
Dummy woman, dance a while
Dummy woman, give a sheitl to thee
Dummy woman, oy, oy, oy
Dummy woman, go away
Dummy woman, say you'll gei avek

'Cause I hate you
I'll stone you right
Sit in the back on of the bus
Be gone tonight

Dummy woman, can't walk on by
Dummy woman, don't make me schrei
Dummy woman, can't walk away
oy vey

If that's the way it must be, oy vey
I guess I'll stone her up, it's hate
There'll be tomorrow night

Nu wait, what do I see?
Is she walking to the mikveh?
Nu, she's walking to the mikveh!
O-oy
Dummy woman.

It's only "Lo Sasuru" for religious Ashkenazim, Archie. For Sephardim and most Israelis, it's "Lo Tattooroo," which everyone knows prohibits us from from getting tattoos.

Yisroel is a on roll!

Just being funny

MisterApikoros

YOU MARRIED A GERMAN!

Ohhhh I am a convert and my mother was Swedish/Danish and I grew up on stories on how bad Krouts were! Not only that but Lindberg was a stinking Krout lover who went to Germany and said how nice them Nazis were and even took a medal from Goering.. President Roosevelt should have had Lindberg thrown in prison as a Nazi traitor.
Seriously it is no wonder that the Danes (and Swedes) saved the Jews as they have no love for the Krout. For you see... Germany annexed the southern part of Denmark long time ago and part of my mother's family were refugees from anexed Denmark.
History lesson for today.....

Speaking of Sephardim and being on a roll, Yochanan, what's the most popular music in Morocco? Moroccan roll, obviously.

Scandinavians will appreciate this one. Apikoros is a Jewish Quisling.

You may even be right, Archie...but ONLY Scandinavians. How many Scandinavians do you think read this site?

I am not sure I understand.What kind of hechsher is needed for a store to sell ladies lingerie and bathing suits? I have never heard of a restaurant, kosher or non kosher, in America or Israel, selling ladies lingerie or bathing suits. I have seen pictures of sandwiches and entries, but I really do not understand the facts behind this story.

++Chicago Sam, are you that shockingly ignorant of how the Chazal, Rishonim & Acharonim detail the issur of Lo Sasuru or has it been clipped from the Taryag Mitzvos at Chovavei to be replaced with some New Age eco-friendly prohibition?++

Of course I am--probably a lot better than you and your Haredi rabbinical friends. You may be familiar with the current party-line, but you never cite original texts to prove your point; I can only assume that doing so would require much more work than you are willing to expend.

Please show me in the recent history of the Responsa literature where rabbis (who think like yourself) have made these type of specific decrees.

Haredi rabbis, like the one you are so deeply infatuated with, fit the profile of a חסיד שוטה imposing decrees that people will not only obey thus violating the halachic principle ofמוטב שיהיו שוגגין ולא מזידין (you may need a haredi rabbi to translate and explain this concept) in addition to making a chilul HaShem to the rest of the non-Haredi world.

V'ha'maven yaskil.

"Get thee to a nunnery!", Archie.

Go get a yourself a tribunal of black-hatted rabbis, Dinghead, and put me on trial for treason. Or at least blasphemy.

Make my day.

It appears that asshole-itis is now a national epidemic among hareidim. I hope they discover a vacine or cure. Otherwise, you'll soon be seeing the female chimpanzees at the tel-aviv zoo wearing a bra, panties and a burka.

If the haredim were smart, they would make common cause with feminists on this degradation of female dignity and sexualization of swimwear, and stuff like that.

Too bad the Haredi demonize anything feminist.

מוטב שיהיו שוגגין ולא מזידין is going on issurei Derabanan, not Deoraysah.

On a real woman, it is forbidden to stare at her breasts even when she is clothed accroding to all opinions in Achronim. Some poskim even extend this to clothing items in her closet that she is not wearing.

A life-like mannequin showing actual cleavage falls under pornographic parameters in halacha. Are you familiar with what it says in Reishis Chochmoh and Kav Hayashar about someone who looks at pornographic images? Even though many other seforim warn that such behavior leads to another grave sin, the first 2 seforim describe a punishment in the next world just for looking that is so frightening I hesitate to describe it other than to say it is carried out in a section of Gehinnom called "Bor". Rav Chaim Volozhin adds that a Jew looking at pornography commits a worse travesty than the Roman with the prostitute on the sefer Torah in the Holy of Holies.

If there is any chilul Hashem here Sam, I think you ought to consider your own reaction.

If thine eyes offend you, dinghead, pluck them out.

I guess "Bor" is the most heavily populated part of the afterlife. I'm looking forward to meeting Rav Chaim Volozhin when I arrive.

It's very telling that the radical feminist followers of Shmarya are quick to jump in whenever there is some reeeealllly far fetched possibility that behavior of rabbis could lead to violence against women, but when rabbis take a stand against sexploitation of women, one of the big feminist peeves, they are nowhere to be found.

They're just like the rest of the phonies along with Patricia Ireland who selectively bitch about their supposed grievances, making sure to keep quiet when anti-Republican / anti-religious goals are furthered.

Lubavitchers want Moshiach now and phony anti-religious militant feminists want Failed Messiah "NOW".

Dinghead, are you Phyllis Schlafly in disguise?

Apikoros,

there are saints like Rav Chaim who stand outside Hell and are able to win last minute reprieves for sinners as long as they actually haven't copulated with a goya.

So I guess you might indeed be seeing him. Repent, or you are out of luck.

Yl you are one talented fella!

Sam, did you forget about the discussion over at the Norman Lamm article?

Uh I think Archie posed a comment in my direction. here's a new flash Archie, WOMEN AREN'T A SEXUAL MANEQUINS.
you can trust me..I am a doctor

Who died and elected you Saint Peter, Dinghead?

I guess that means there will be no glatt kosher Hooters in Tiberias.

Actually, I am not through with raking Archie through the coals.
here is what I suggest haredi and the Republican party do, start talking about REAL issues and not inventing pseudo issues. Using mannequins in store window to make a statement about women's rights. How about instead granting women the right to divorce?, doing away with Jim Crow Laws? Encouraging women and children rape victims to go to the police, and not holding it against them threatening them and telling that they'll never get a shidduch? How about doing away with Agunah laws? Rebuilding Synagogues that do not shove women in cages like dogs? How about equal space at the Kotel? How about a women's right to choose birth control because it is her body? How about Rabbinic ordination?
What the above story proves is that most Haredi men DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REAL WOMAN AND MANNEQUIN.

Dinghead, are you a troll sent here from Stormfront.org? Intolerant fools such as yourself make perfect poster childen for anti-Semitism, without any help from Henry Ford, the Protocols of Zion, Der Sturmer, etc.

BTW, Ding, if you're even 0.01% as knowledgeable about Jewish law as you claim to be, you'd know that setting yourself up as God is a major violation of the Ten Commandments.

Rad Fem, I know the difference all right but unlike you follow the halacha about what constitutes a forbidden image.

While you are correct about some of your complaints above, you have otherwise missed the boat on the role of women in Judaism.

And could you explain according to Rad Fem POV why a mannequin wearing nothing but a revealing low cut bra is ok when you go ballistic if a real life model is being paraded around for men to salivate over? Halacha prohibits the dummy because it leads to the real thing. Are Patricia Ireland and company not concerned where it leads? It is certainly a much more real catalyst than all the stretches you fear that supposedly lead to violence.

You should return those coals for a full refund. I'm not singed in the slightest.

Archie, a little bit of knowledge in your case is pretty dangerous. The Halacha makes a clear distinction between ri'iya and histaclut -- you are confusing the two, they are not halachically the same.

אנציקלופדיה תלמודית כרך ו, [גלוי עריות] טור קיד

יש סוברים שאסור מן התורה להסתכל באשת איש ובשאר עריות, שנאמר: ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם128, ומנו האיסור בין הלאוין במנין המצות129. אבל מותר להסתכל בפני הפנויה ולבדקה, בין בתולה ובין בעולה, כדי שיראה אם היא נאה בעיניו ישאנה, ואין בזה צד איסור, ולא עוד אלא שראוי לעשות כן130, ויש חולקים וסוברים שמכל מקום אין דרך תלמידי חכמים בכך131. ולדברי הכל לא יסתכל דרך זנות, הרי הוא אומר: ברית כרתי לעיני ומה אתבונן על בתולה132

129. רבנו יונה באגרת התשובה; ס' חרדים מל"ת פרק ב. ועי' ארחות חיים ח"ב עמ' 112, והביאו ב"י ס' כא.

Note that the Torah is speaking only about a living person, not a mannequin.

In terms of a being a biblical precept, your assessment is completely erroneous. The biblical prohibition does not pertain to looking at an object that is in the shape of a woman, unless one intentionally plans on having sex with the lustful object--which maybe people similar to yourself might fantasize about.

Note it is "looking with the intent of having illicit sex" and the only people who think of having sex with a mannequin are Haredim--being the sickos that they really are. Ordinary looking is not prohibited and this position is universally held by all poskim. OTOT derech histacklut and iyun are definitely what is prohibited (Y.D. 142:15, see Be'or Halacha).

תוספות מסכת שבת דף קמט עמוד א

בחול אסור - נראה דבשויה לשם עבודת גלולים אמר אבל לנוי מותר כדמשמע מבנן של קדושים דלא הוו מסתכלי בצורתא דזוזא (ע"ז דף נ.) מכלל דאחריני הוו מסתכלי.

I can give you many more citations, but frankly your narrow view of the Halacha is really incorrect and very one-sided.

Apikoros,

if you want to know about Nazis, I suggest you ask your significant other's faily as they are equipped to answer from experience.

should have read: ask your significant other's family - not faily

RF: Thanks for your appreciation.

Chevra: Let's stick to the substance of the debate and stop with the ad-hominem name calling (both sides).

To self-proclaimed "rabbi" Chicago Sam,

first of all I hadn't realized that you have such a filthy mind and would use such below the belt tactics to accuse myself and other orthodox Jews of having fantasies of being with a sex doll.

I was aware of reiyah vs histaklus. I hinted earlier that it applies to regular situations and not pornographic shaylos like if the woman / dummy has bared breasts.

You are either playing games or do not realize that porno is different than anything you cite. In Nefesh Hachaim it says that even a machshavah raah of a pornographic image is worse than maaseh Titus - no intent for actual sex required.

You are the one who is incorrect and do not have ANY side in this area of halacha. You know, any dope can look up אנציקלופדיה תלמודית and not know he is comparing similar looking apples & oranges.

Sam, you have exhorted me to provide citations. Have you ever learned the seforim I cite? I doubt it. I suggest you spend the next month going through them before you revisit this topic again.

And think about what you are arguing. Smutty videos from the porno industry are sometimes made in computer generated likenesses that look exactly like the real thing. (No I have never seen one but everyone has seen regular movies produced with the same technology). So according to you, it is not a real woman and you are allowed to stare at every part of her uncovered body since she is not of actual flesh. If that's what they teach at YCT, no wonder the place is popular!

The rabbis have a good point when they promote tzniyut, and try to stem the objectification of women. But focusing on inanimate objects does their cause no favors, IMO. Also, when they do things like blot out women's faces from periodicals, they go beyond modesty and into a different realm of objectification: the woman as vile temptress. Moderation is the key.

Archie, what made you like this? Your take on society at large is as big a parody as your on-line personality. Yellow fever? Radical feminist followers of Shmarya? Seriously, no one talks like that. Maybe you need to get out more. Interact. You're so out of touch, you might live in a closet. An honest question: Are you for real?

Feminism, like the Talmudic rabbis who admonished husbands to be civil to their wives, does not think women are stupid and need to be protected from the big, bad world. Rather, they understand that that there are opportunistic people who would take advantage of the weakness of others- they're the ones to whom the lesson is focused! Get it? So if a woman wants to buy a bathing suit, kol hakavod! Underwear? It's no one's business but her own. Even if she shops at stores with anatomically-correct mannequins. Even (especially) if they are "anti-republican" like Patricia Ireland (sorry, couldn't resist).

Geez.

C-G,

it seems that Yochanan was the only here smart enough to figure out that I use certain language for effect.

If a woman wants to buy a bathing suit, be my guest at a dedicated store or section of a department store. Rabbis have a right to keep mannequins showing cleavage out of the restaurants if they are to be certified kosher.

And Yochanan, I agree that tznius is often taken too far. As I said, I don't know all the facts here. I'm only arguing IF the dummy is very life-like AND too revealing of a woman's private parts.

++Sam, you have exhorted me to provide citations. Have you ever learned the seforim I cite? I doubt it. I suggest you spend the next month going through them before you revisit this topic again.++

Please think about what you are arguing. Smutty videos from the porno industry are sometimes made in computer generated likenesses that look exactly like the real thing. (No I have never seen one but everyone has seen regular movies produced with the same technology). So according to you, it is not a real woman and you are allowed to stare at every part of her uncovered body since she is not of actual flesh. If that's what they teach at YCT, no wonder the place is popular!++

Your logic continues to break down. A porno video is made for histaklut, not r'iyiah anybody with a modicum of common sense or moral decency can easily attest. Even with a "normal woman" there is no prohibition unless sexualizes the woman with the idea of having sex. I frankly don't look at women that way, neither do many of my friends--but you apparently can't look at a woman and not feel lust in your heart.

If you need me to translate the texts cited above with the appropriate references from Shas, please let me know.

Postscript:

Rashit Chochmah is one of my favorite mussar seforim, are you familiar with the story of the man who solicited a beautiful woman to meet him in a private place? The lovely lady said, "In the graveyard ..." And so he went to meet her there, and he waited .... and waited .... and after a while he realized that he was a miserable human being; so, he decided to repent and became a rabbi! I often use this story at my kever avot services before RH.


++and stop with the ad-hominem name calling (both sides).

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | May 13, 2009 at 12:14 PM++

Yochanan, ONE person here instigates all the negativity. ONE person here engages first in the name calling and ad hominens.

It is not 'both sides' as if there was some kind of moral equivalency here.

How is it that that individual can expose the personal information of someone here a few weeks ago, in an attempt to make that person vulnerable to identity theft, harassment, or worse, and yet the perpetrator is allowed back on this site? When I asked Shmarya, I got the on-line equivalent of a shoulder shrug.

But these Reform jokers push for legitimizing gay abominations.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090513/NEWS/905130366/-1/ENT06

Rabbi Darryl Crystal, interim rabbi of a Reform Jewish congregation in Chicago, told the audience that not all Jews agreed with the way the Orthodox leaders of Agriprocessors allegedly treated the company's immigrant workers.

"As a rabbi, I am charged to say that the actions of Agriprocessors and every employer who abuses immigrants are an abomination," he said.

WoolSilk, stop distorting the facts. Apikoros called me about a dozen names here today without me so much as doing a play on words of his name.

And Shmarya's stated issue with the co-directors of his registered charity was not that I made them vulnerable to ID theft. Even though I only excerpted from public websites available to everyone else, he was afraid that people who hate him could use that excerpted info to harm his associates.

Chicago Sam,

Sigh.

Ok, you are now arguing technicalities to defend your position so let me give you a precise scenario that you won't be able to weasel out of.

You are in effect arguing that you can STARE all day long at a computer generated still-shot (not a movie "made for histaklut") of a completely nude woman since it is not real.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

And it's really quite slimy of you to continue to smear me as full of "lust". Do you really think you are managing to belittle me to the other readers that I might need a translation of Hebrew texts? I think they gather that I can read them just fine on my own, and are not duped by your cynical attempts to paint me as an ignoramous.

If you are so fond of Raishit Chochmoh, I suggest you internalize more of it.

"What the above story proves is that most Haredi men DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REAL WOMAN AND MANNEQUIN."

Which is why Haredi men do a great imitation of woody the woodpecker.

Archie:

You are about the stupidest poster I've ever come across. You are a disgrace to Judaism (that's assuming you're Jewish and not some real anti-Semite masquerading as a Jew in order to make other Jews look bad).

Frum scum like you are the reason d'etre for this website. Gay kocken aff'n yam, mamzer.

Any time, boychickel.

One more thing: Dummies don't have private parts. Unless the dummy is you, who's three pieces short of a three-piece set.

"Archie Bunker" can rail as much as his little brain pleases about other people doing things he chooses not to do (attend Reform shuls, not attend shul at all, marry out, whatever). He can even call them traitors and worthles and all sorts of other names that devalue their humanity.

But, Boruch Hashem, we live in a free country, so his judgements count for nothing. All he's doing is making everyone else want to puke, and have less to do with Yiddishkeit than they might already have.

Way to go Archie! You're a real gute neshoma and a great representative of Torah!

To radical feminist. Believe me, I know the difference between a real woman and a mannequin. but let's start with some of your issues. Ajudge is supposed to rule impartially. You, like the Red Queen, have first reached your verdict, only then do you examine the evidence. Is a woman's body truly her own? Is prostitution an halachic alternative lifestyle? If not, why not? Where the lines of halacha will be drawn are not always clear, but if you do not recognize that halacha has a voice, that God has ultimate authority over our bodies (circumcision for men Taharat hamispacha for husbands and wives) teach us that some feminist issues are more complex than can appear on a bumper sticker.

Apikoros, get corrective lenses and you will see many mannequins have breasts.

David, the people I butt heads with here are not typical lost souls. They are here because they eat up every ounce of Shmarya's anti-religious venom while spewing their own. They need to be put in their places.

Bunker, shouldn't you be studying your perverted haredi torah, instead of sitting here trolling 18 hours a day?
I guess when you have a do-nothing government subsidized job at your daddy's Lakewood yeshiva, and you get tired of molesting kids, you spend all day trolling.

You claim to have a wife, and yet you're on the internet every waking moment? Truly a haredi marriage. She knows her place.

And I'm sure you don't own a collection of pornography. Yeah, right. In fact, "you've never even looked at the stuff". And yet, a small town like Lakewood can support 2 porno shops on the highway leading into town.

And what exactly was your motivation in exposing the names and personal info of Shmarya's associates, other than to open them up to identity theft, fraud, or other attack from your fellow haredi scum?

Women become feminists because they have to deal with people like Archie Bunker.

And he's making a pretty good attempt at doing the same "favor" for Torah and Yiddishkeit. A hundred points for you "Archie!"

You're a real gute neshoma. Sitting in shul next to someone like you who belittles others as worthless and traitors is a real nice prospect. You'd set a real nice example for my son.

But don't worry, you're doing a great job of making sure we won't be coming to sit in a shul near you anytime soon. Way to go!!

Alas, it didn't take long for WoolSilk to launch another of his invective filled tirades that throw around accusations of molestation & porno several times.

I know you are continuously obsessed with Lakewood since you can't stand that orthodox Jews live near you, but Shmarya can confirm that I am not based anywhere in your home state of New Jersey. As Will Smith is parodized, party in the State where the stink is on, WoolSilk boy.

Yes David, I'm really "sure" you resolved to stop going to shul because of an anonymous poster on some blog.

Get a life.

Actually "Archie," I'm someone who wishes he could go to an Orthodox shul like the one I grew up going to. A warm place, full of good people who were mostly interested not in judging and condemning people in the name of Torah, but in feeling like part of their community and in learning and davening, and in their children learning.

But now the only Orthodox shuls I can walk to are filled with people like you. Nasty, holier-than-thou, self-righteous nudniks. Either that or Lubavitch Messianists.

Do you think you are helping the cause of Torah? My son will be a good man, but how can I get him to also be a Jew who loves Yiddishkeit when its self-proclaimed representatives are people like you?

David, you are full of it and just trying a ploy to stop me from defeating the false arguments of Shmarya and his followers.

Say what you want about me as most shuls in this country are not populated by people that have a radically different viewpoint than years earlier.

And again, I do not speak this way to most people. It's just that this website attracts some of the lowest forms of humanity who use every tool at their disposal to attack religion.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DCGOA_RlajQ/SgrvC-0u8sI/AAAAAAAADlc/h9Imeq4Msn4/s1600-h/scmooze.jpg

The big talk around Lakewood yeshiva tonight is that WoolSilk will be at this event!

Archie stop getting your tzizit in a tangle.
First off, where is this Rabbi taking his hecsher from? We are assuming it's a restaraunt, but what restaraunt has mannequins to show off clothes?
So i would assume it is a clothes shop.
Why do you need a hechsher on a clothes shop? The whole kashrut business is getting out of hand. It's almost like a mafia racket and maybe it should be stopped before it gets out of hand...soon they will be hechshering your own home and if you are not keeping judaism the way they see you should then they will take away their hechsher and stop people playing with your children...it's already done anyway, but without the hechsher, instead they just look at what school your child goes to and what you wear.

If these rabbis want anyone to take them seriously they need to step up and also proclaim their disgust at other things.
For instance the men that go off and pick up prostitutes on the street corners maybe because their wife is niddah or maybe because she has had 7 kids one year after the next and just isn't as tempting anymore. They then contract STDs and probably pass them onto their wife. I never hear any Rabbi crying out about this act of immodesty and indecency and believe me it happens enough.
What about them shouting against child abuse or abusing their wives?? The Rabbis of today are not made of the same stuff as the Rabbis of yesteryear. They are just a bunch of puffed out air filled loud mouths who have nothing better to do with their lives apart from making the common person's life a living hell.

David - you are being a bit melodramatic with your comments. As you should know, there are all types of orthodox jews, shuls, beliefs, etc... It is a fallacious argument to imply that Archie will keep one away from Yiddishkeit.
Chitown Sam - I do believe you are minimizing the sex drive of the male for purposes of strengthening your arguments.
I would have to lean with Archibald on this one.

Archie: You called my wife, recently deceased at the age of 53, a Nazi, simply because she's German. You know damned well that if you called her that to my face, I'd rearrange yours. Since you're not about to do that (a wise move on your part), that makes you a coward, in addition to being a caricature.

The difference between you and Carroll O'Connor's character is that the first Archie Bunker, beneath his know-nothing exterior, was a very likeable guy. That's what made "All in the Family" the best sitcom ever.

If Archie were merely a stupid racist with no redeeming qualities, he wouldn't have drawn the wide audience the show did. People identified with Archie, a blue-collar guy with traditional values who didn't relate well to his hippie son-in-law who was a professional student. In fact, it was the Rob Reiner character, Michael Stivic who was really the "heavy" in the show, at least much of the time. There were many episodes in which Archie showed himself to be a mensch, albeit a politically incorrect one.

So, unless you're pulling the wool, silk, and cotton over everybody's eyes here, you're Archie Bunker without the redeeming qualities. If you were the star of a TV sitcom, you'd be canceled after the pilot.

Your kind is hardly limited to Haredim. We've seen your kind beating up and leaving for death Matthew Shepard, simply because he was gay. We've seen it in the South, where both black and white alike were injured and sometimes killed by good 'ol boys who shared your prejudices. Now we're seeing it in Israel, where 15% of the Jewish population is trying to impose their medieval rule on the other 85%. The same civil disobedience which I engaged in as a kid is needed on the buses of B'nai Brak, and who knows, I might get involved again as I was as a teenager 40 years ago. It's not that I'm a great liberal -- I voted for McCain, and before that, for Bush (a mistake), but I strongly believe in civil liberties, and in fighting for them whenever necessary.

By the way, my new significant other is black. From Jamaica. Deal with it.

This is my last word on the subject.

Just how thick is this "rule book" of the Haredi? 5 feet? 10 feet? How does it work? Is there some kind of Haredi policy-maker committee that devotes themselves full-time to studying books of religion determining what others may have missed? Or can any rabbi randomly submit a new "rule" according to his own whim or interpretation? Is there a website of these "rules" anywhere? How do their followers keep up with it? How are the rules enforced? And lastly,does anyone know the number of people who ascribe to this sect? Anyone out there have the answers?

++Ok, you are now arguing technicalities to defend your position so let me give you a precise scenario that you won't be able to weasel out of.

You are in effect arguing that you can STARE all day long at a computer generated still-shot (not a movie "made for histaklut") of a completely nude woman since it is not real.++

No Archie, you apparently are still conflating "seeing" and "staring," the latter is forbidden but not the former; most people I know do not "stare" at mannequins, but do "look" at them, especially if they happen to be interested in what the mannequin is "wearing."

To assume that someone might have lustful thoughts after seeing a scantily clothed mannequin reflects a fetish-type of sexual imagination--one which requires clinical treatment and therapy.

++ Nothing could be further from the truth. And it's really quite slimy of you to continue to smear me as full of "lust".++

I think when you defend a Haredi fear about seeing a scantily dressed mannequin, this kind of behavior reflects a neurosis; if I were you, I would say, "This is the Haredi concern .... but I personally do not worry about such matters ..." then everyone would realize that you do not personally subscribe to this kind of ideology. By defending the Haredi rabbi with no disclaimer, I would think that many of us would be of the view that you personally endorse this kind of psak din.

++Do you really think you are managing to belittle me to the other readers that I might need a translation of Hebrew texts? I think they gather that I can read them just fine on my own, and are not duped by your cynical attempts to paint me as an ignoramous.++

Archie, my apologies if you felt slighted; however, when you wish to argue with me, I expect you to use texts to prove your point; if I can take the time to look things up and post them for discussion, the least you can do is analyze the texts and defend your POV.

When you refuse to examine the evidence and appeal to sentimentality of the Haredi kind, you lead us to think that you cannot read or translate an original text--hence my offer.

++If you are so fond of Raishit Chochmoh, I suggest you internalize more of it.++

Are you so skilled in judging the character of others? I don't think so.

All in all, the Haredi folks may want to read the old Greek myth about Pygmalion, who fell in love with a statue. It seems like he was not the only one ....

Itchiemayer - I'm not being melodramatic, I want to take my son to shul and it is painful to me that I cannot do so without moving house or having him wonder what the hell I was thinking.

Yes there are all kinds of shuls. There is one in my city that I would like to attend, but it's too far to walk until my son is much older. There are another 4 or so in my neighborhood, I've tried them and would not return. I know for a fact that 4 of them were completely different in mentality 20 years ago, ie not full (or should I say empty) of Kahanists, Lubavitch Messianists, weirdos and other raging judgementalists). I am left considering a local traditional Conservative shul, which is attended by "normal" and decent people, lots of young families, some shomer shabbos people etc.

Of course it's not Archie that's keeping me from Yiddishkeit. But it's people like him, with attitudes like his that are more and more common. And who ever said that Jews were smart? I have to find my own way. This is why there are alternative minyans.

Archie says I'm "full of it and just trying a ploy to stop (him) from defeating the false arguments of Shmarya and his followers." Well he would say that, because he's all about scoring points and never about looking beyond his self-righteousness. Yuk.

No ploy Archie, I'm not a liar. I guess I just have to stop romanticizing frum Judaism.

--Kosher supervision services have a right to impose rules on decorum and religiously speaking, the dummies are in bad taste. If the restaurant has a problem, no law in Israel forces them to go under kosher supervision.--

Great point.

Would have been more impactful had I not had to read 5 or 6 nastygrams to get to it, but............

.......Good point.


David, Judaism has historically evolved since the days when cultic Judaism thrived in the days of the First and Second Temple; it will continue to evolve in the future as well. Haredism is completely ahistorical and could care less about how Judaism changed over the centuries. Yet, if a modern Haredi Jew were to go back to the first century or earlier, he wouldn't know about anything that was going on in that time.

It's precisely this built in ability to re-invent itself that makes Judaism appealing to people like myself and others. Who knows what new traditions will emerge tomorrow? Even the Bat Mitzvah is now observed in many Modern Orthodox and Haredi circles, and is an example of how new traditions take root in the psyche of a people.

First off, where is this Rabbi taking his hecsher from? We are assuming it's a restaraunt, but what restaraunt has mannequins to show off clothes?
So i would assume it is a clothes shop.
Why do you need a hechsher on a clothes shop? The whole kashrut business is getting out of hand. It's almost like a mafia racket and maybe it should be stopped before it gets out of hand...soon they will be hechshering your own home and if you are not keeping judaism the way they see you should then they will take away their hechsher and stop people playing with your children...it's already done anyway, but without the hechsher, instead they just look at what school your child goes to and what you wear.


If its a clothing store maybe the answer is simpler. Maybe the rabbi won't test for shatnez?

It's precisely this built-in ability to re-invent itself that makes Judaism appealing to people like myself and others. Who knows what new traditions will emerge tomorrow? Even the Bat Mitzvah is now observed in many Modern Orthodox and Haredi circles, and is an example of how new traditions take root in the psyche of a people.

I would further add change is really scary for a lot of fundamentalist driven faiths; the cynics of religion are to some degree correct in saying that it is borne out of superstition and fear; and to some degree they are unfortunately correct.

--Apikoros, get corrective lenses and you will see many mannequins have breasts.--

Actually - they have lumps of injection molded plastic.

Now I grant you, in Southern California injection molded plastic often PASSES for breasts on real women, but most of know the difference, and are not any more tillilated by a mannequin than we are a little girl's doll.

Probably should not have said that - I'll probably read tomorrow that Chatty Cathy has been banned because she talks in front of men and has an injection molded plastic vagina.

Well, at least the Haredi rabbis can take solace with the Ken dolls--they are completely neutered!

Chicago Samson, Ya don't say?

(I mean about Judaism, not the Ken dolls).

R's comment got me thinking. Maybe this is similar to tznius certification in the Old City but I can't really see the Rabbanut getting involved in that. Still, the rabbis have a point if the most provocative displays are in the front window visible from the street. There are towns in New York that do not allow anything ostentatious in the front window even if it's just gaudy housewares.

R is mistaken about opposition to the boorish Hasidim who patronize prostitutes. There have been rabbis speaking up about it although granted they are threatened to stop talking by mafia-like figures.

R has valid complaints about many rabbis in today's day & age but is otherwise completely off base about the rabbis of times past.

Another example why Apikoros needs a new prescription for eyewear. I called his other half's FAMILY Nazis, not her. And strange it gets him so angry when he was hurling titles at me like Der Sturmer and Stormfront.

"my new significant other is black. From Jamaica"

Interesting how Shmarya has the most disproportionate number of readers that fit that profile.

Sam,

you wrongly accuse me of conflating things when it is you who confuses what I say, whether purposely or not, to win the argument.

Again, there are certain things where even reiyah bealmah is assur and private parts of a woman's body and good simulations thereof are among them.

Itchiemayer is raising an excellent point that lies at the root of your inability to agree with me. The yetzer harah is one of the most powerful forces in the universe and the Torah goes to great lengths to set up barriers between him and us. If guys see a good wax duplicate of Heidi Klum in a g-string, they candidates for therapy if they are NOT sexually aroused, not the other way around.

(Apologies to Andrew McCarthy, Kim Cattrall and the rest of the cast of Mannequin)

Mannequin Factory Boss (shmaraya?) : You know, you could get the dummy of the week award, Switcher.

Jonathan Switcher (archie?): She turned out pretty good, didn't she?

Mannequin Factory Boss (shmaraya?): I wasn't talking about her.

And of course an unforgettable scene:

Armand: Roxie! Roxie, Roxie. You know what you need to do right now? You need to put him and this whole nasty affair out of your mind. Now, how is the best way to do that, huh? Huh? By having a night of distasteful sex with someone you care absolutely nothing about! And proudly, I would like to be that person.

Roxie Shield: Fine, let's go to your place

Armand: Really?

Roxie Shield: Drive fast before I have second thoughts!

Armand: Armand is the wind!

"Haredism is completely ahistorical and could care less about how Judaism changed over the centuries."

How sad the the far-left UTJ / YCT crowd resorts to this perverse sort of revisionist history themselves to smear regular orthodox Jews so they can feel good about themselves not following the tradition of their forefathers.

The Vilna Gaon explains that there is no such thing in Judaism as staying on the exact same plane religiously. G-d instilled in nature that people either go up or down. Left-wing modern orthodoxy has long missed the boat on this and are alarmed when their children either go OTD or become Charedi. Get a clue.

Hometown Postville, the answer to your question is lengthy. You may understand it partially from the beginning of the legal work from Maimonides.

One thing is for sure though. Any supposed explanation provided by Shmarya is completely bogus and maliciously engineered to convince people to break with Jewish law & tradition.

Archie,

To begin with: I enjoy shmoozing with you. However, I think you are really conflating the issue here. I am not interested in "winning" an argument, but I am interested in truth. Rabbi Cohen is being very disingenuous.

You are confusing a mannequin with a person; you should know that even Chazal had no problem using Roman baths that featured the idols of Roman gods and goddesses. If you don't believe me, why don't you look at the Mishnah in Avodah Zarah 3:4, which states how Rabban Gamliel used to frequent Aphrodite's bathhouse. Now if you really think Rabbi Cohen is correct, Rabban Gamliel's behavior should have been very dubious indeed; I doubt Rabbi Cohen and his legion of Haredi supporters would have approved of attending a bathhouse adorned with the sexy image of Aphrodite. Should you doubt what I say, then ask your rav if he would attend such a batthouse!

Looking a mannequin is not like looking at a porno movie as you wish to say. You are way off base and I stand by my original argument that you are--YES INDEED--conflating ri'yah and histaclut. The Halacha is so clear about this, please look up the sources I posted.

I was thinking earlier today: By your logic, would you be opposed to a male medical student taking a course in anatomy? After all, he will certainly examine many naked female bodies!

Yes, the "yetzer harah is one of the most powerful forces in the universe and the Torah goes to great lengths to set up barriers between him and us" and one of the things the Yetzer Hara is expert in is in creating a false image of piety before people--just as Rabbi Cohen and others seem intent on doing.

Again, I left open that Rabbi Cohen could be making much ado about nothing. I am only defending him in a narrow range of possible circumstances. There is no steerah from statues in bathhouses since those were primitive reproductions as opposed to life-like dummies a la Madame Tussaud or with computer enhanced duplication which are much closer to a porno flick / photo which you yourself concede.

As far as cadavers in Med school, there is a Gemara in Bava Basra perek hashutfin that the yetzer harah does not bother people over corpses.

Archie -

So necrophilia stems from yetzer hatov?

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