Haredi Kiruv Rabbi Advocates Suicide For Homosexuals

Homosexuals are better off dead than alive, unless they can be readily 'cured.'

The following is written by the anonymous blogger Freelance Kiruv Maniac.

FKM is Rabbi Dovid Kornreich, a teacher at Yeshivas Toras Moshe, a mainstream haredi post high school yeshiva for American students, located in Jerusalem.

FKM has devoted much of his blogging life to attacking Rabbi Natan Slifkin, the Zoo Rabbi. I corroborated this independently, and Rabbi Slifkin mentions Kornreich here.

Please click to enlarge:

As a personal suggestion, I think Rabbi Kornreich and his friends should substitute the term "haredi kiruv rabbi" for homosexual in Kornreich's piece. The world will be a much better place without you, Dovid. Ease yourself into the long dark night that never ends. And have your friends join you.

As for the halakhic issues involved, they hardly even need to be discussed. In the entire history of Judaism, there is no example of homosexuals killing themselves rather than live and "sin," and there are no examples of rabbis suggesting this should be done.

The examples brought by Rabbi Kornreich are of non-homosexuals sold into homosexual prostitution. Even then, the halakha is not that the captured boys should kill themselves. Indeed, halakha would view whatever acts they were forced to engage in as outside their control. But halakha does partially legitimize their suicides, not because suicide is the correct response to that situation, but because suicide committed by individuals under extreme duress is not considered to be be a sin. Lacking that extreme duress, suicide is indeed a sin, which is why until very recently suicides were buried at the far edges of Jewish cemeteries, away from the graves of their family and community.

It is worthwhile noting there are cases of women (especially young teen age girls) committing suicide rather than be raped by marauding bands of Cossacks and the like. But these suicides are done last minute, when all other options have failed and the rape is about to happen.

What you do not have are approved cases where a girl says, "The Cossacks just sacked a shtetl 10 miles away, so I'm going to kill myself now rather than be raped." All the more so when the Cossacks are 100 miles away or they're in Poland and the girl is in Turkey.

All of these post facto approved suicides are done at last minute, just before the rape would take place. And even then, approval is given reluctantly, and only after the act has taken place.

What Kornreich advocated is pre-planned suicide. In his case, no matter how far away the Cossacks are, it is inevitable they will eventually come. So let's get the suspense over with and go straight to the suicide.

But the Cossacks don't always come and, even when they do come, they don't always rape every person in the shtetl. Kornreich's attempt at a halakhic paradigm doesn't work.

Past that, it is important to look at how the death penalty was applied in Judaism.

Two witnesses, independent of each other, had to warn the criminal the act he was about to commit is a sin punishable by death. Dozens of years would go by without the Sanhedrin ever ordering the death penalty, both because the witness requirements were so strict and because it was the judges' job to find ways not to impose it.

There is no known record of a Sanhedrin killing homosexuals.

What did the Sanhedrin do with dangerous criminals when it lacked proper witnesses to use the death penalty?

It confined those criminals to kipa, a cell, without food and water. The idea was, if the man was innocent, God would miraculously keep him alive. If he was guilty, he'd die of dehydration.

Never in recorded Jewish history was this punishment used for homosexuals.

There is also no known record of a Sanhedrin encouraging homosexuals to commit suicide.

Why?

Because unless a homosexual act was committed in public by two learned men knowledgeable in halakha and committed with the intent of flouting halakha, homosexuality was seen as an issue between man and God, not between man and man.

There are other sins the Torah calls toevah, abomination. I don't think Rabbi Kornreich is encouraging lobster eaters and Shabbat violators to commit suicide, even though both are far more prevalent than homosexuals, and those sins are often done in public. Indeed, I know of learned supposedly haredi Jews who regularly do both and encourage others to do the same.

I suppose Rabbi Kornreich believes these "sinners" have an easy road to teshuva, and that may be the case.

But there are times when these sins are compulsions and addictions and the road to teshuva is far from easy.

For those people, Rabbi Kornreich prescribes kiruv. For homosexuals, he prescribes death. How sad.

A Radical Solution for the Orthodox Homosexual--Halachicly Assisted Suicide? [UPDATED]
WARNING: Before even thinking about implementing any of the ideas described in this post, consult a genuinely Orthodox rabbi (and a good frum therapist as well).

Being that all major ancient societies had positive attitudes towards homosexuality, it would not be surprising to find that this alternative sexual orientation is a permanent part of the human condition. The fact that the Torah has condemned such behavior in no uncertain terms, in spite of this reality, implies that God expects the Torah observant homosexual to live in a perpetual state of denial of this natural desire for as long as he lives. I do not see any other logical alternative.

This being the case, I have heard of only two options that are available for the tragic existence which is the Orthodox Homosexual:

   1. Conversion Therapy or Re-orientation Therapy (Caveat Emptor that such therapy does not promise going from "gay (not bisexual) to straight (not bisexual)"
   2. Resigning one's self to a life of celibacy and total sexual frustration. This could also probably be pulled off with serious therapy, but you really got to be a tzaddik to boot.

But I have never heard of a third possibility: If one does not respond to conversion therapy to any significant degree, nor is one strong enough to to withstand a lifetime of temptation and is sure to stumble at some point and engage in a forbidden homosexual act, then, just perhaps, the Torah condones "suicide al kiddush Hashem".

Now to be perfectly clear, I am not talking about depression-motivated suicide. That is a mental disorder which can be treated with therapy. [Anyone who knows that he can control himself indefinitely by using various techniques and strategies but is severely depressed about the prospect of being celibate forever and therefore wants an easy out by suicide, is not a candidate for dying al Kiddush Hashem. Such a person should be encouraged instead by knowing by continuing to live in celibacy he is a living, walking Kiddush Hashem. He has a much more difficult task than someone who dies al Kiddush Hashem.]

Let me repeat: if any therapy will allow the Orthodox homosexual to survive his existence without succumbing to temptation, then this suicide option simply does not apply. This option is only for someone who knows his strengths and weaknesses and is afraid that he may G-d forbid stumble and violate one of the most severe Torah prohibitions.

The halachic justifications for suicide in such a specific case seem to be clear: (NOTE: If you don't understand these sources in their original, you don't qualify to use this heter.)

    * Orchos Chaim quoted by the Beis Yosef siman 157 in his Bedek HaBayis glosses:

[בדק הבית] וכתוב בארחות חיים (סי' ד הל' אהבת השם אות א) בבראשית רבה (פרשה לד אות יג) דורש ואך את דמכם לנפשותיכם וגו' (בראשית ט ה) אזהרה לחונק את נפשו יכול אפילו כחנניה מישאל ועזריה תלמוד לומר אך פירוש שבשעת השמד יכול למסור עצמו למיתה ולהרוג את עצמו אם הוא ירא שלא יוכל לעמוד בניסיון

    * The Shach in the same siman in seif koton 1 brings the Haga'os HaSmak to the same effect and cites the above mentioned Beis Yosef:

א רשאי - והב"ח פסק כהרמב"ם דכל מי שדינו לעבור ואל יהרג ונהרג ולא עבר ה"ז מתחייב בנפשו וכן דעת הב"י וכן נראה דעת הרמב"ן בס' תורת האדם ומביאו הר"ן פ' יה"כ ובהג"א ממהרי"ח רפ"ק דכתובות כתבו אם רוצה להחמיר על עצמו וליהרג היכא דקי"ל יעבור ואל יהרג צ"ע אי שרי או לא ע"כ וכתב בת"ה סי' קצ"ט והיה נראה דבפלוגתא דרבוותא אזלינן לקולא באיסור סכנת נפשות כדאמרינן בעלמא ספק נפשות להקל אמנם י"ל הכא דלענין קדוש השם שלא הקפידה התורה על איבוד נפשות מישראל לא ילפינן לה משאר ספיקות דלית בהו משום קידוש השם ונראה דלפי הענין ושרואין אנו כוונתו מורין לו עכ"ל, וכתוב בהגהת סמ"ק סי' ג' דאותן קדושים ששחטו עצמן שלא סמכו דעתם לעמוד בנסיון קדושים גמורים הם וראיה משאול ומביאו ב"ח וכ"כ בב"ה בשם א"ח מיהו כ' הא"ח שם שיש חולקים שאינו יכול להרוג את עצמך ע"ש שהאריך:

    * [UPDATE: I subsequently remembered that there is another precedent for preemptive suicide and it discusses the option of suicide to avoid the homosexual act in particular. This is cited in the tragic sugya in Gittin 57b:

אמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל ואיתימא רבי אמי ואמרי לה במתניתא תנא מעשה בד' מאות ילדים וילדות שנשבו לקלון הרגישו בעצמן למה הן מתבקשים אמרו אם אנו טובעין בים אנו באין לחיי העולם הבא דרש להן הגדול שבהן +תהלים ס"ח+ אמר ה' מבשן אשיב אשיב ממצולות ים מבשן אשיב מבין שיני אריה אשיב ממצולות ים אלו שטובעין בים כיון ששמעו ילדות כך קפצו כולן ונפלו לתוך הים נשאו ילדים ק"ו בעצמן ואמרו מה הללו שדרכן לכך כך אנו שאין דרכנו לכך על אחת כמה וכמה אף הם קפצו לתוך הים ועליהם הכתוב אומר +תהלים מ"ד+ כי עליך הורגנו כל היום נחשבנו כצאן טבחה
Rashi there:
לקלון ילדים למשכב זכור וילדות לפלגשים
שדרכן לכך לתשמיש ואין קלונן מרובה כקלון שלנו
Tosfos there:
קפצו כולן ונפלו לתוך הים והא דאמר במס' ע"ז (דף יח) מוטב שיטלנה מי שנתנה ואל יחבל בעצמו הכא יראים היו מיסורין כדאמרינן (כתובות דף לג) אלמלי נגדו לחנניה מישאל ועזריה פלחו לצלמא ועוד דע"כ היו מענין אותן ולא היו הורגים אותן
Tosfos says that when one is not given a choice to be killed as an alternative and will simply be forced to commit a homosexual act, suicide can be performed to prevent the sin from being commited]

    * We see later in the Schach in the next seif koton that the situation of dying Al Kiddush Hashem is not at all limited to times of שמד:

ב אם העובד כוכבים מכוין כו' - אבל אם אינו מכוין אלא להנאת עצמו אסור להחמיר ונקרא חובל בעצמו וצריך לעבור ואל יהרג, ר' ירוחם סוף נתיב י"ח, וכתב הב"ח ס"ב דאפילו בפרהסיא אינו רשאי למסור נפש כיון דאינו מתכוין אלא להנאת עצמו אבל מדברי הפרישה ס"ג מבואר דבפרהסיא רשאין למסור נפש ונראה דאם השעה צריכה לכך וכה"ג לכ"ע רשאי למסור עצמו כדלקמן בהג"ה גבי מצות עשה דהא הב"י פסק כהרמב"ם ואפ"ה כתב דאם הוא אדם גדול וחסיד וירא שמים ורואה שהדור פרוץ בכך רשאי לקדש השם ולמסור עצמו אפילו על מצוה קלה כדי שיראו העם ליראה ה' ולאהבו בכל לבם ומביאו ב"י וד"מ:

This is based on the logic found in the Ran to Shabbos which ALL rishonim including the Rambam seem to agree to.
We find that when the Jewish society is experiencing a general weakness towards a certain mitzvah, it is allowed for great individuals to publicly be killed for that mitzvah--to bolster the commitment of the Jewish community to that mitzvah. This is another application of dying Al Kiddush Hashem and therefore applies to ANY mitzvah in the Torah. It should certainly apply to any of the three cardinal categories of sins of Judaism like homosexual activity.

    * [UPDATE: RJM in the comments astutely pointed out that there is another step necessary in the argument. We only see dying Al Kiddush Hashem being sanctioned when the alternative is EXTERNAL compulsion to commit cardinal Torah violations. This is called an אונס in halacha. But for the Orthodox Homosexual, we are talking about an INTERNAL drive to commit the violation, over which he presumably has total free-will to restrain himself. Where do we see that the drive for physical intimacy is sometimes considered אונס?
    * For this we have a Tosfos in Gittin daf 41b (now corrected):

כופין את רבו ועושה אותו בן חורין - וא"ת וכי אומרים לאדם חטא כדי שיזכה חבירך דהכי אמר בפ"ק דשבת (דף ד.) גבי הדביק פת בתנור וי"ל דדוקא התם אמרינן הכי משום דפשע שהדביק סמוך לחשיכה ... וחציה שפחה וחציה בת חורין דכפו את רבה (לעיל לח:) משום דנהגו בה מנהג הפקר אע"ג דהם פושעים כיון שהיתה מחזרת אחריהם ומשדלתן לזנות חשיבי כאונסים ועוד דמצוה דרבים שאני.

    * So Tosfos does render a man under certain extreme conditions as being an אונס. I submit that this application is somewhat of a chiddush to say it then sets up a situation of אנוס which allows one to die Al Kiddush Hashem.]

It seems to me that never has such a severe and openly stated commandment of the Torah like the prohibition of homosexual activity come under such attack in recent memory. Killing one's self publicly in order to prevent it's violation and re-enforce its prohibited status in the minds of the rest of the Jewish community seems to soundly qualify as dying Al Kiddush Hashem.

In Summary:
The candidate for halachicly assisted suicide must be a very special individual. He is a great Jew who is so distraught over the prospect of violating this most severe of the Torah's commands.
He feels that he has the courage to voluntarily sacrifice his very life in order to make a public statement that God's command is more important than life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In short, he is ready to answer to the Torah's immortal call of "Kedoshim Tihyu". (Double-entente intended)

II

One of the things which makes the homosexual act so severe is evidenced by this Mishna found in the eighth perek of Sannhedrin:

משנה ז
ואלו הן שמצילין אותן בנפשן הרודף אחר חבירו להרגו אחר הזכור ואחר הנערה המאורסה אבל הרודף אחר בהמה והמחלל את השבת והעובד ע"ז אין מצילין אותן בנפשן

One is permitted (even without a Sanhedrin) to prevent an act of sodomy by any violent means** at one's disposal. Strikingly, this is not true of all the cardinal sins of Judaism like idol worship. The Talmud explains and Rashi summarizes:

אבל הרודף אחר בהמה - לרבעה, והרוצה לעבוד עבודה זרה, ולחלל שבת, וכל שכן שאר כריתות ומיתות בית דין שאינן עריות, דלא ניתן להצילו בנפשו אלא מדבר שהוא ערוה ויש בה קלון ופגם לנרדף, כגון זכר ונערה המארוסה, ומיהו רוצח בהדיא כתיב ביה, והאי דנקט בהמה משום דדמיא לעריות, ונקט נמי עבודה זרה משום דסלקא דעתך אמינא תיתי בקל וחומר כדלקמן, ושבת נמי תיתי בגזירה שוה.

So one of the reasons that makes sodomy so severe is that it inflicts irreparable psychological damage to the victim.
The Torah's position regarding child molestation is clear: the Torah allows a vigilante killing** of a potential child molester to prevent sodomy (or rape for that matter), primarily because of the psychological damage it inflicts on its victim.

**The preferred method of preventing rape and sodomy is not to kill but rather to maim. As the Rambam says in Hilchos Rotzeach perek 1:
הלכה יב
רדף אחר ערוה ותפשה ושכב והערה אע"פ שלא גמר ביאתו אין ממיתין אותו עד עמדו בדין, רדף אחר ערוה והיו אחרים רודפין אחריו להצילה ואמרה להם הניחוהו כדי שלא יהרגני אין שומעין לה אלא מבהילין אותו ומונעין אותו מלבעול, באיבריו, ואם אינן יכולין למנעו באיבריו אפילו בנפשו כמו שביארנו.
הלכה יג
כל היכול להציל באבר מאיבריו ולא טרח בכך אלא הציל בנפשו של רודף והרגו הרי זה שופך דמים וחייב מיתה אבל אין בית דין ממיתין אותו.

The Kesef Mishna clarifies that 'maiming' in this context of sexual molestation seems to be castration:

רדף אחר ערוה וכו'. בס"פ בן סורר ומורה פלוגתא דרבי יהודה ורבנן ופסק כרבנן ודבר פשוט הוא שמ"ש באיבריו ה"ק ומונעים אותו בחתיכת איבריו מלבעול:

Reiterated WARNING: Before even thinking about implementing any of the ideas described in this post, consult a genuinely Orthodox rabbi (and a good frum therapist as well).

 

 

 

[Hat Tip: Pravda Ne'eman.]

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

I suggest sewer-side for this bum.

[frumhouse]

What rubbish! Why doesn't he advocate "Halachicly Assisted Suicide" for pedophiles? How about for rapists or murderers? Why not for adulterers or those with any compulsive sex addiction? Why focus only on homosexuality?

Who made him G-d, that he should decide who is worthy to live or die?

[Hometown Postville]

These ideas get more weird by the moment! Who died and made him God? Is he the epitome of perfection? I think not- more like a role model of Satan.

[MisterApikoros]

This frumbag should be sleeping with the fishes in the Sea of Galilee.

[MisterApikoros]

Right next to the scantily-clad dummies.

[Isa]

Hey!
It is not all bad!!!!!

It also says "... The Torah allows a vigilante killing** of a potential child molester.."

hehaw lets go get'em the rope is on me!

[Ben]

This guy brings a very interesting and novel ideas into Jewsih discourse. Since he is a Haredi, I assume that this idea is part of original Sinai revelation passed down through unbroken chain of tradition to him (we can not assume that he just invented something new, can we?).

[Ben]

Remember he stands by - "hiddush assur min ha torah".

[Archie Bunker]

This guy seems to be someone in the yeshiva world who knows a lot of diverse material but does not have the expertise of a posek (arbiter of law) to know how to legally apply the ideas. He is really going off the deep end by equating an immoral society that tolerates homosexuality with a forced regime of forbidden sex acts (shaas hashmad).

Shmarya, who is even more ignorant, and does not even understand what is behind dying al kiddush Hashem in the classic cases of shaas hashmad, provides completely inaccurate ramblings in his preramble, I mean preamble.

And if Shmarya was sincere, he would wish that the FKM blogger would do teshuva before he wishes death on him and his friends, which is ostensibly anyway the reason why Shmarya attacks him to begin with.

[Chicago Samson]

I had trouble finding his website, but I did find it posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009.

Shmarya's original criticisms are very valid; I find it strange that Kornreich urges suicide instead of self-induced castration only as an afterthought, and doesn't seem to mention this possibility until the end of his article--thus refuting his own foolish arguments. Even that kind of idiotic proclamation would have been a little less morally objectionable vis a vis urging homosexuals to kill themselves rather than live any kind of meaningful and fulfilling life. The man is a fool.

Not even the extreme Christian evangelicals would ever dare make that kind of stupid statement.

Clearly, Kornreich's article reflects a classical case of wish-fulfillment. Simply put: He would rather see homosexuals die than live any kind of life.

The 18th century philosopher Jonathan Edwards once wrote, "The Devil can quote Scripture for his purposes" and I would add, "And he can quote Halacha and Talmud as well ..."

Kiruv maniac should change his name to just plain old "Haredi Maniac," and I suspect his homophobia is probably due to his own latent desire to have a forbidden homosexual experience. In any event, he has no reverence for life whatsoever. Perhaps he should contact one of the Roshe Yeshivas from ITRI who would gladly assist him.

BTW, I think he should rename his blog: A Voice From the Armpit.

[critical_minyan]

haredi assisted suicide has killed more jews than the palestinians. Probably 50-100 charedim and ex-charedim kill themselves every year because after they drop out they get no more love from their family.

[mkarpas]

I am confused
Who is Freelance Kiruv Maniac and who is Frum Kiruv Maniac Are they one in the same?

[Yonah]

WHAT?

...

As for why the double standard with this "abomination" and another (violating Shabbat, say) I am pretty sure the answer is influence from Christians, for whom homosexuality indeed seems to be an exceptional issue.

[Archie Bunker]

"probably due to his own latent desire to have a forbidden homosexual experience"

Or he may have developed an obsessive hatred after a homosexual made unwanted advances towards him or someone close to him. In any case, he is trying to manufacture a desired outcome.

[Yonah]

Also, what a loser... there's nothing about "homosexuality" as we know it today. He quotes some interesting passages about sodomy and child molestation, but if that's what he's really basing this on, I guess two men blowing each other isn't exceptional. Also, lesbians seem (relatively) good to go.

I think rabbis ruling on homosexuality should have to read, at minimum, a fair amount of Savage Love so they at least understand that "homosexuality" =/= men doing each other in the ass. They should probably know some actual gay people, too.

[Audrey the Liberal]

Considering about one in three gay youths will attempt suicide, it seems a rather pointless response on the rabbi's part.

[Archie Bunker]

"there's nothing about "homosexuality" as we know it today. He quotes some interesting passages about sodomy"

I don't know what's "interesting" but forced AND consentual gay acts are both abominations so at least in that sense, it's today's homosexuality as you know it. And despite Clintonite interpretations as to what actually constitutes sex, oral & other methods can and are sometimes considered sex under Jewish law.

[David]

People who feel a religious need to impose a death penalty on other people for consensual behavior that has nothing to do with them should probably kill themselves. Or at least shut up and quite embarassing the rest of us.

[Chicago Samson]

++Or he may have developed an obsessive hatred after a homosexual made unwanted advances towards him or someone close to him. In any case, he is trying to manufacture a desired outcome.++

For once I think I agree with you. Maybe the Moshiach isn't too far behind!

[ML]

"Or he may have developed an obsessive hatred after a homosexual made unwanted advances towards him or someone close to him. "

Posted by: Archie Bunker | May 14, 2009 at 08:48 AM

Arch,

Is this really the reason for YOUR vitriol?

[Honestlyfrum]

These rabbonim at ToMo are all crazy and have backwards warped hashkafos that have no place in main stream Judaism. I blogged about another rebbe from there last week and the crazy things that he says. This yeshiva should be marginalized people should stop donating and sending their children there.
http://honestlyfrum.blogspot.com/2009/05/there-are-some-people-who-love.html

[Yonah]

Audrey - I was thinking the same thing. It's so, so tragic.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to MASH:

Through early morning faigeleich I see
visions of the things to be
the pains of Gehenom for me
I realize and it's really me...

[REFRAIN]:

that suicide is Gayless
The rabbi wants nevertheless
and I can take or leave it if I please

[Archie Bunker]

ML,

I do in fact find it abhorrant that homosexuals make unwanted advances on normal people.

Do YOU despise homosexual opponents because if we have our way we would put an end to such deviant behavior?

[A. Nuran]

Archie, do you find it "abhorrent" when heterosexuals make unwanted advances?

[Chicago Samson]

++Do YOU despise homosexual opponents because if we have our way we would put an end to such deviant behavior?++

Oy, back to your old self again! You really have a solution, right? Please elaborate.

[Archie Bunker]

Well, yes. Unwanted homosexual advances should be a felony with significant jail time and no more acceptance of gay "marriage" / unions which is what precipitated calamities in the past, vehamaivin yavin.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Fortunately, in halachically analyzing this proposal we can rely on the song "A Boy Named Sue," written by Shel Silverstein and popularized by Johnny Cash. It's clear from this highly authoritative source that we should never put Sue aside.

[Chicago Samson]

What about unwanted sexual advances from a heterosexual person, would that also be a felony in your book?

To your credit, at least you didn't prescribe the death penalty!

[david]

People like this idiot drive more and more Jews away from Torah every time they open their stupid mouths.

Is it any wonder there's hardly anyone who would qualify as a Godol any more. Most sentient beings want nothing to do with this kind of hateful nonsense.

That's the REAL "halachically-assisted suicide."

And why is Archie Bunker so fixated on gays? There's no reason having gay sex is any worse than, for example, driving on Shabbat. And yet he doesn't seem to get the same huge boner over that issue...

Inquiring minds would like to know Archie? Why do you spend so much time and energy thinking about homosexuals?

Archie's notion that merely an unwanted advance ("on a friend" as it were) would produce an obsessive hatred of homosexuals is ridiculous. I have been hit on by men, it is unwanted, and who cares. It would only be if I was afraid and conflicted deep down that I was somehow tempted that I would start to obsess about it. That much is obvious.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Archie seems to favor stiff penalties for homosexuals.

[radical feminist]

Wait a minute, this guy teaches young men? I mean he has access to young men and boys? Boys who may have sexual identity issues who might see this man as a mentor? That should concern everyone, this man needs to be removed from working with children immediately.

[Yoel B]

It's common for individuals to gravitate to intellectual systems that make their pathologies into virtues (or to create such systems.)
I've noticed that when people choose to characterize themselves as "maniacs" there may be some truth to it. I often think of that sort of self-designation as a warning label.
It's one thing to channel manic energy, and something altogether different to think that manic thinking is good.

[Archie Bunker]

Homosexual advances should be punished more severely than hetero advances. I know that all you homosexual advocates will be bent out of shape for the rest of the week now. Go pout with your deviant gay friends.

"at least you didn't prescribe the death penalty!"

Not for plain advances but for gay rape, definitely!

[Yisroel Pensack]

Exactly how great a stiffening of the penal code for homosexuals do you desire, Archie?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yisroel: I think he'd settle for a fine, but the accounts would be in arrears.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Yochanan: Are you making a pun? Archie's nice enough to mention that "homosexual advocates will be bent out of shape" because of his remarks.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yisroel: Is Archie being arch?

[Yisroel Pensack]

Yochanan: It's a matter of how much starch is in the Arch. He may be hoping that someone will set him straight.

[Doug]

"Yochanan: It's a matter of how much starch is in the Arch. He may be hoping that someone will set him straight."

That will be hard.

[Yisroel Pensack]

"That will be hard."

Fear not. Archie shall overcome.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++we have our way we would put an end to such deviant behavior++

Of course! The final solution to the homosexual problem.

And just who is this 'we' you speak of? Your fellow mentally ill haredi scum from the Modesty Squad? Those who get wood from seeing a wooden dummy?

Correction: 'Mentally ill haredi scum' is a redundant expression.

BTW, gay porn is very popular among the black hat crowd.

[Archie Bunker]

"gay porn is very popular among the black hat crowd"

Let me guess how WoolSilk might know something that most aren't privy to. Has been standing shoulder to shoulder with some of them at gay porn shops?

[david]

Archie is sick and tired of the gay agenda being forced down his throat.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yes, I have.

[david]

""at least you didn't prescribe the death penalty!"

Not for plain advances but for gay rape, definitely!"

Presumably that would include the death penalty for the child abusers that have been discussed at length here, at least the ones that have raped boys?

[WoolSilkCotton]

The porn shops serving your Lakewood haredi community have special entrances in the back for 'discrete orthodox gentlemen'.

It's the worst kept secret in town, Archieboy.

[Chicago Samson]

++"at least you didn't prescribe the death penalty!"

Not for plain advances but for gay rape, definitely!++

Gay rape should be treated like any other kind of case of heterosexual rape. So, what's the chiddush?

[Archie Bunker]

"the death penalty for the child abusers that have been discussed at length here, at least the ones that have raped boys?"

Absolutely! And why just boys? Raping girls too. Children are ruined for life by these monsters and Jewish law mandates the death penalty.

[Archie Bunker]

Gay rape is worse because it's an abomination on top of the crime itself.

[david]

Apparently Archie Bunker is now a posek too!

[Archie Bunker]

WoolSilk, were you involved in the gay video store fiasco with Robert Pinter?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/nyregion/15arrests.html

No wonder you try to be "discreet"!

[Archie Bunker]

And it seems WoolSilk's friend Pinter may be interested in more than just men. Does anyone know if WoolSilk may have joined Pinter on this excursion?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL7951493

Typical of many developing nations, Uganda's tourism-dependent economy is likely to suffer heavily as cost-conscious holidaymakers opt for less exotic destinations.

Relaxing in the bar of a new budget lodge, overlooking the cactus-strewn Queen Elizabeth National Park, Robert Pinter explains that many friends in the United States are cutting back on foreign holidays, preferring to take cheap "stay-cations."

Pinter, by contrast, seized the opportunity of extended time off to experience Uganda's mountain gorillas, track chimpanzees ...

[maven]

Archie writes: Homosexual advances should be punished more severely than hetero advances. I know that all you homosexual advocates will be bent out of shape for the rest of the week now. Go pout with your deviant gay friends.

Apparently, in the Chareidi world, the punishment for homosexual advances of rebbeim towards talmidim is finding them nice jobs at Feldheim (at least if you were a rosh yeshiva attacking dozens of talmidim over the years at Itri, ie Ben Zion Sobol).

[Archie Bunker]

So Maven? There have been cover ups in the Charedi world as we know because some corrupt people have not been following the halacha. They will all get what's coming to them one day.

[maven]

So maven, what? You argued earlier that "unwanted advances from homosexuals" (as though that actually happens, it almost never happens) is worse than other crimes, but the minute its a "rosh yeshiva" who admits to dozens of attacks on innocent kids trying to learn in yeshiva and you say "so"? You want to ban store mannequins because it may lead to thoughts about women but are less concerned about the defense of boys being attacked by rebbeim, that the latter "will get what's coming to them" biyedei shamayim?
Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

[Archie Bunker]

No hypocrisy. If Sobel was assaulting children he deserves the death penalty like all other child abusers.

[Yisroel Pensack]

A word of caution: If we all keep questioning Archie, he might develop a "bunker" mentality. Think of how awful that would be.

[Archie Bunker]

Well Pensack, I do have all the incorrigible atheists taking sniper shots at me from their foxholes and WoolSilk waging warfare from his trench on behalf of deviant gays.

[Y. Aharon]

I agree that this character should not be teaching impressionable teenagers. His radical "solution" to a serious matter might just strike a responsive chord in one of his students or readers who will act on it. It is an act of pure chutzpah for someone of his knowledge, maturity, and station in life to even think about offering advice about terminating life. If this "advice" was approved by his rebbe, then the rebbe should be publically condemned. If he published such dangerous nonsense without approval, then he should be summarily fired.

Y. Aharon

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yisroel: All Gays should be sent to a penal colony. (/humor)

[ML]

The simple fact is that Archie is a coward. I say this not as a personal attack but an observation. He wouldn't be writing any of this if he really thought he'd be held accountable. And even if his internet anonymity is never disrupted, Hashem will hold him accountable. For all of Archie's bluster, he comes off as the quintessential anti-theist: accountable to no one, and a G-d in his own image.

[Chicago Samson]

Yes Maven, it's much easier for pious sounding rabbis to take a poke at a sexy looking mannequin with their platitudes about morality than it is to deal with the real hard and embarrassing problems that occur every day in cognito within the citadels of Haredi Judaism.

Yesterday the Chabad in Postville staged exactly the same kind of parody when they encouraged their community to act "morally" in keeping with the Noahide precepts, while Rubashkin and his cronies exploit the very people they are preaching morality to.

++So maven, what? You argued earlier that "unwanted advances from homosexuals" (as though that actually happens, it almost never happens) is worse than other crimes, but the minute its a "rosh yeshiva" who admits to dozens of attacks on innocent kids trying to learn in yeshiva and you say "so"? You want to ban store mannequins because it may lead to thoughts about women but are less concerned about the defense of boys being attacked by rebbeim, that the latter "will get what's coming to them" biyedei shamayim?
Isn't that a bit hypocritical?++

[WoolSilkCotton]

Prediction: Within 3 years, Bunker will be totally nonreligious, and will be eating bacon cheeseburgers for lunch each day.
Anybody care to place a wager against that?

You see, when your only contact with the outside world is Faux News, Hannity and Limbaugh, and porno magazines, you become like our Archie Bunker.

As soon as he will get any exposure to living in the real world, he will drop all his fanatical bullsh!t instantly, and become totally nonreligious. Seen it plenty of times. Actually, lived it for a while, too.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Yisroel: All Gays should be sent to a penal colony. (/humor)

No Yochanan, all the Gays should be sent to Las Pinas !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Pi%C3%B1as

[Yochanan Lavie]

Monsey: What about Rosh Pinnah?

[david]

Don't you mean Kfar Pines?

[Equal Tim e]

--Gay rape is worse because it's an abomination on top of the crime itself--

What if a man rapes a married woman? A forbidden relative? Enjoys a shrimp cocktail after the rape?

Does your logic extend to these perps as well? Do we execute THEM?

[Chicago Samson]

How about: Kfar ChaPines?

[Chicago Samson]

++Prediction: Within 3 years, Bunker will be totally nonreligious, and will be eating bacon cheeseburgers for lunch each day.++

I bet you he doesn't change; FM is a form of entertainment for many of us, and especially for Archie.

[Yisroel Pensack]

Archie: I think you could express your moral, ethical, legal, political, religious and halachic opinions in a more civil tone if you had more respect for the fundamental human dignity of others -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike. On some issues I agree with you, such as banning so-called gay marriage. But I don't think you will win many adherents with your gratuitously offensive, bombastic style.

You advocate religious views in a manner contrary to Torah. All people are created in G-d's image, even if their conduct or beliefs are incorrect. We are no longer charged with exterminating all the Canaanite nations, Archie -- only Amalek. And according to some opinions, Amalek can also be found within.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chicago Samson, I always appreciate your insights.

It is tragic how, in a matter of days, this website went from a regular series of thought-provoking discussions on a wide variety of subjects, to an idiotic frenzy (mea culpa for stirring it, too), all because of the decision to allow Bunker back on here.

If he is not removed soon, this site will go the way of many others- consumed by spammers, porno ads, and obnoxious trolls.

[Archie Bunker]

Chicago Sam, in fairness it is not just Charedi citadels that are harboring molesters. The modern orthodox and YCT / UTJ crowd is guilty as well.

[Archie Bunker]

Incredible how ML & WoolSilk are obsessed with silencing me. The Left Wing censor is alive & well.

And is ML going to start every long winded attack on me with that phony disclaimer that he is somehow not attacking me?

WoolSilk should stop projecting his unstable life history on others. Just because he went off to extremes from secular to Lubavitcher and then anti-religious cheeseburger fresser, it doesn't mean others are so volatile.

And you know WoolSilk has long ago lost the argument when the best he can do is lyingly accuse hordes of orthodox Jews of being porn addicts.

[Archie Bunker]

Yisroel Pensack,

This is the only blog I can think of where I would comment in this tone. It's directed at the very bad apples that congregate here. Shmarya attracts the worst of the worst who hate orthodox Jews with a fanatical passion and thus I will not give them kid glove treatment.

[Chicago Samson]

Api-chor-us and Mister Apikurus, would you like proof that God has a sense of humor with respect to the crazy Haredi rabbi of our story?

Just look at the blog address he uses:

fkmaniac@blogspot.com

Now isn't that funny? What a synchronicity!

[Chicago Samson]

As I mentioned earlier, this rabbi has no reverence for human life.

Here is a Talmudic story that has great relevance for this issue:

Our Rabbis taught: “A person should always be soft as a reed rather than hard as a cedar.” It once happened that Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Shimon was coming from Migdal Gedor, from the house of his teacher. While riding on a donkey along a riverbank, he was feeling proud of his Torah learning and progress. Along the path, he discovers a man who is exceedingly ugly. The ugly man greets the rabbi, “Peace be unto my teacher!” However, the rabbi ignored him and did not reply with a greeting. Instead, he said to him, “You worthless person, you are really ugly! Are all the people of your village as ugly as you?” The man replied, “Well, I really don’t know, but why don’t you go to the Craftsman, Who made me and ask Him: ‘My, what an ugly vessel You made!’”

When the rabbi heard these words, he realized that he sinned. He immediately got off his donkey and prostrated himself before the man and exclaimed, “I sinned against you, please forgive me!” But the man replied, “I will not forgive you until you go to the Craftsman who made me and say to him: ‘How ugly is this vessel that you made!’” And so it was.

Rabbi Elazar walked behind the man until he arrived in his town. The townspeople greeted the famous rabbi, “Peace be unto you our teacher!” The “ugly” man asked the folks who gathered about him, “Whom are you calling teacher?’” The townspeople replied, “This man who is following you!” The man replied, “If this man is a ‘teacher,’ may there never be any more like him!” Shocked by the response, the townspeople asked, “Why would you say such a thing?” And so the strange visitor related the story …. They replied, “Even so, you should forgive him, for he is a man who is great in Torah!” He said, “For your sake, I will forgive him on condition that he never behaves in this manner again.” That is why Rabbi Elazar the son of Rabbi Shimon began expounding the lesson he had personally learned, “A person should always be soft as a reed rather than hard as a cedar” (T.B. Ta'anit 20b).

I think the story has a deep moral. “Ugliness” is for one thing, always in the eye of the beholder. The ugliness of spirit is always much more of serious problem than a physical deformity, as the good rabbi learned. Unlike Greek culture that extolled the beauty of the body, Judaism has always extolled the beauty of the spirit, “Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain; but a woman who fears YHWH, she shall be praised” (Proverbs 31:30). Secondly, it is not for any person to judge another on the basis of one’s appearance; what may be “ugly” to one person, may be considered “beautiful” in the eyes of God. Thirdly, the study of Torah should induce humility in its student and not ever be used as a tool to hurt others.

Although we do not know what precisely constituted the man’s “ugliness,” it is not the place of Sage to criticize the unique creation of God. God made every human being special because we are made in the likeness of the Divine Image. When we mistreat a human being on the basis of what we perceive to be “ugly,” we are ultimately not only disrespecting God’s unique creation, but we are also disrespecting God Himself. Lastly, the human face–no matter how disfigured it may happen to be–demands that we respond ethically toward that person (Emmanuel Levinas).

Rabbi Kornreich would be very wise to ponder these words and learn some wisdom from Rabbi Elazar.

[David]

The next step on this slippery slope will be his advocation of suicide for all chronic or habitual masturbators.

[Chicago Samson]

++Erratum++

Although we do not know what precisely constituted the man’s “ugliness,” it is not the place of any Sage to criticize the unique creation of God on the basis of what we culturally and aesthetically consider "beautiful." God made every human being special because we are made in the likeness of the Divine Image. When we mistreat a human being on the basis of what we perceive to be “ugly,” we are ultimately not only disrespecting God’s unique creation, but we are also disrespecting God Himself. Lastly, the human face--no matter how disfigured it may happen to be--demands that we respond ethically toward that person (Emmanuel Levinas).

The Talmudic citation is from T.B. Tan'anit 20b.

[isa]

Regarding:
"""

Chicago Sam, in fairness it is not just Charedi citadels that are harboring molesters. The modern orthodox and YCT / UTJ crowd is guilty as well.

Posted by: Archie Bunker"""

The molester that physically (not sexual) attacked my daughter was a Jewish atheist The molester's son btw died of a cocaine overdose.

[Shmarya]

This is the only blog I can think of where I would comment in this tone. It's directed at the very bad apples that congregate here. Shmarya attracts the worst of the worst who hate orthodox Jews with a fanatical passion and thus I will not give them kid glove treatment.

Posted by: Archie Bunker

The reason you act this way, Bunker, is because you lose debating the facts and the halakha.

You're a pompous, arrogant, ignorant boor who bullies his way through every conversation.

That stops now, or you get banned.

No more warnings. No more second chances.

[Chicago Samson]

On the subject of getting banned from a website, many years ago I actually got banned from TOR-CH (United Synagogue website) for criticizing Rav Moshe Feinstein's halachic doctrine of the kofer (non-believer); it was really funny--especially when considering that Rav Moshe considered practically every person at this website as a kofer!!

Archie Bunker may want to consider checking out some other new fields to graze in. There are tons of non-believers (by your definition, I mean) for you to convert to the one and true Haredi path.

May the Schwartz bless you!

[Veronica]

As much as I hate saying stuff like this it needs to be said. Archie for that last comment you should only experience the pain of your sister, mother or other close female relative getting raped in front of your eyes and then you come back here and say gay rape is worse because it's an abomination. All rape is horrible. Gay Rape freaks men out because they are not used to the idea or reality of men being victimized in such a heinous way, but women get victimized everyday. Just try walking down the street ( in frum clothes non-the less) and getting verbally raped practically every day. In your next life you should be a ROACH.

[Veronica]

Just to clarify. I don't wish that they should be actually raped, but that you experience that pain, or try to imagine it, or dream it, something so that you don't make stupid comments about what kind of rape is worse.

[Chicago Samson]

Great insights, Veronica.

A roach? Naaaah, God has a funny side as well; I think God might make Archie come back as a black woman--now that would sure be karmic justice! We ultimately come back in the form we hate, or so the Hindu mystics claim. Boy, imagine Archie singing the blues or rap.

[itchiemayer]

Rape is a horrible thing, in any form. I have experienced it within my own family. Archie was merely expressing the halachically correct view that gay rape would be worst from a strictly halachic standpoint because of the extra prohibition against homosexual sex of any form (including consensual). I have worked with homosexuals, I have come across them in my daily life, and as with everyone, I treat them fairly and respectfully. I harbor no ill will against them. Nevertheless, the Torah tells us that homosexual sex is an abomination. I abhor the act, not the actor. I abhor all acts of rape, as I am positive Archie does as well.

[Dr. dave]

I once heard Harvey Firestein on Bill Mahr's show state that gays are as important in human reproduction as bees are in helping plants pollinate.

While they may not procreate, the gay population make it possible for straights to court and marry.

Who do you think design all the dresses, are the hair stylists and florists?

How would heterosexuals date, mate and survive if all the homosexuals were gone?

[Chicago Samson]

Cultural diversity--even in gender--is a good thing, so long as adults don't hurt one another or inflict psychological and physical injury on minors.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I read the prohibition on homosexually narrowly, to mean male anal sex, and/or a male impersonating a female fertility goddess and having sex with a worshipper (isn't to'aevah an avodah zarah word?). The orientation itself is not the problem.

Furthermore, the "Egyptian sin" is not lesbianism. That was not a salient feature of Egytian culture (as it was of ancient Greek culture). The Egyptians married their half-siblings- an issur de'oraita. That started with the Pharoahs but trickled down to the masses. The European rabbis could not have known this, but Egyptologists understand the culture.

However, I dislike the strident leftwing liberation theology of "Gay Rights." Just let gays go about their business quietly and dan kol adam l'chaf zechut. In other words, gei gezunte heit.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya, you are calling me a bully, etc, because you don't like what I say and because I am articulate enough to get my counterpoints across.

If you are going to constantly shift the landscape of your rules to include everything that irks you, it's inevitable that I will be banned and that you will be silencing my viewpoint. How Democratic.

In the meantime, you say I am being uncivil when I made a statement not directed at any one person, yet after your big warning that was supposedly directed at everyone, you allow these kinds of attacks against me from your supporters:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/05/rabbi-protests-scantily-clad-mannequins/comments/page/3/#comments

Bunker's wife is actually a mannequin from a store window ... they're probably on welfare ... do you honestly think someone so consumed with bullsh!t like Bunker has ever even gotten laid?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 14, 2009 at 07:15 PM

There's always the gerbil to amuse himself with.

Posted by: MisterApikoros | May 15, 2009 at 05:37 AM

[Shmarya]

Stop your infantile lying and deception...

Y-O-U smear and attack anyone you don't like and then whine if someone does it back to you.

Now follow the rules or you're out.

[Archie Bunker]

Ummm, no Shmarya. Just a double standard from you. You go beserk when I describe your anti-religious following yet you sit there silently as WoolSilk smears and makes it sound like thousands of orthodox Jews are crowding the 2 porno shops closest to Lakewood. Something that WoolSilk does over & over again because HE cannot win an argument.

[Dr. Dave]

Well let's find out for sure. i suggest putting archie and WSC together in an unmarked surveillance vehicle with cameras and see who is going into the store.

If they haven't murdered each other, perhaps they will bond through ahavat yisrael and report back a true account of how many religious Jews frequent the place.

I think it is more than Archie would think, but fewer than WSC's prediction.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dr. Dave; I volunteer to monitor the store from the inside. For purely academic reasons, you understand.

[Chicago Samson]

Fellows, take a breather ....

Personally, I find Archie to be amusing; I think making personal attacks on the people he differs with only weakens his arguments, yet his counterpoints force a guy like me to look up old sugiyot and Halachic passages, which if nothing else--helps to keep my mind sharp.

Obviously, I cannot speak for everyone, and I have no desire to do so. A focus on the issues is really the only way to keep a dialogue with our resident Haredi member possible.

Archie, please don't personalize your disagreements, it only diminishes whatever valuable you wish to say.

To the other forum members: It takes two people to fight, and it requires a lot of effort to keep anger in motion. It's very hard to be angry at someone who is not reacting.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Perhaps this take-no-prisoners approach is the intellectual legacy of the Babylonian Talmud. The Bavli amoraim practice Jew-jitsu.

[Dr. Dave]

Sometimes the postings on this blog is like an ad for sinat chinam:

SINAT CHINAM

keeping Jews in diaspora for 2000 years

[Yoel Mechanic]

Hm, it this whole thread was a bit confusing as to who was saying what. But I'm not concerned with knowing which cretin said which thing. There's a word in clinical psychology for someone who suggests or eggs on someone taking their life: ... let me think for a moment if I can remember the technical term...oh yeah: SICK.

[Equal Tim e]

__The Egyptians married their half-siblings--

Like Abraham and Sarah?

[Chicago Samson]

Egyptian royalty used to marry their sisters.