Chief Rabbis Demand Control Over Entire Conversion System

Move meant to block Reform and Conservative conversions – or is it?

Amar launches battle against reform conversions
Chief rabbi convenes 'urgent meeting' of leading rabbis, politicians to discuss recent High Court ruling ordering State to fund Reform conversions. Participants demand handling of conversions be transferred to hands of Chief Rabbinate
Kobi Nahshoni, Ynet

Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar convened an urgent meeting of leading rabbis, ministers and Knesset members on Sunday to discuss a recent High Court of Justice ruling ordering the State to fund private Reform conversion institutions.
 
After lengthy deliberations the participants decided to demand that the government transfer responsibility for the entire conversion system from the government to the hands of the Chief Rabbinate.
 
At the beginning of Sunday's meeting Rabbi Amar warned that the court's ruling would eventually lead to a state recognition of Reform and Conservative conversions, until "part of the people will not be able to marry the other part."
 
Interior Minister Eli Yishai said during the meeting that a future recognition in Reform conversion could have far-reaching implications on non-halachic issues as well. He expressed concern that foreign workers and Palestinians could easily convert this way and become Israeli citizens.
 
Minister of Religious Services Yakov Margi added that by sanctioning non-Orthodox conversions the government would cause a national rift – "two people in the State of Israel that are separated from one another."
 
Other participants in the meeting were Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger, Minister Ariel Atias and several religious MKs.
 
Reform rabbi: Rabbinate failed shamefully
MK Uri Orbach, the only representative of religious Zionism in the meeting, told Ynet: "It’s obvious that the issue is not the funding but the High Court's interference, which is an opening for recognition in Reform conversions and for introducing Reform rabbinical judges into the state conversion system. We share in this concern.
 
"It's no secret that the religious-Orthodox world is divided on conversions – what is the Halacha and how should non-Jews be treated. It's complicated, but there's no argument that what the Reform Movement is doing is not Halacha."
 
Rabbi Gilad Kariv, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, said in response to the urgent meeting that, "The Chief Rabbinate has failed disgracefully in its handling of conversions, and allowed extremist and heartless elements to take over the conversion courts, marriage registries and rabbinical courts."

What has Amar and friends in such a tizzy? What is the High Court's "interference"?

[T]he court ruled that the State failed to uphold its obligation to equality, and that "the State does not have to support private conversion schools, but as long as it chooses to do so – it cannot give preference to one form of conversion, and must exercise equality."

Haredim insisted on having their own conversion schools outside the state system. Fine. But they also insisted the state pay for those schools. Not fine.

The court has simply noted that the state cannot by law fund haredim but not fund Reform or Conservative.

Private conversions have no force in Israel. Someone converted in a private conversion ceremony outside the state system will not be registered by the state as Jewish unless he also converts in the state system or his conversion is recognized by the Interior Ministry – which by law and practice relies on the Chief Rabbinate to ratify private conversions.

So Orthodox run state conversion courts do almost all non-haredi private taught conversions because otherwise the conversions are next to worthless for the convert. He won't be able to marry in Israel or be buried in a Jewish cemetery and, if the convert is a woman, her post-conversion children will not be registered as Jews.

Those state conversion courts were set up because the haredi-controlled Chief Rabbinate and its courts had slowed conversions of even Orthodox-trained converts down to a trickle and were rife with corruption.

Since that time, haredim have tried everything in their power to destroy those state conversion courts, including negating thousands of Orthodox conversions performed by them. That case is itself is now before Israel's High Court of Justice.

See this latest move for what it is – another haredi move against the state conversion courts.

Comments

[Ben]

There are 2 reform movements within Judaism. Both were born at approximately the same time in 18th century. One is officially called Reform and another called is called Haredi. Reform is not very dangerous because it is honest in proclaiming itself being reform. Haredi is much more sinister reform movement, because it claims to be "authentic Judaism". It eats up at Jewish soul from within, destroying social cohesion and imbittering countless Jews.

Haredi must be recognized for what they really are - modern reactionary reform movement that has very little in common with authentic Judaism.

[Ben (not the other Ben)]

Hey Ben,

Can you give some guidance as to what "authentic" Judaism looks like?

[rabbidw]

Authentic Judaism looks like me. Unauthentic Judaism looks like you.
That's the way it is, that is the way it has always been.

[Samurai Scientist]

It is a huge failure on the part of our various Jewish 'denominations' that they haven't worked out a deal on conversion. In doing so, they fail to fulfill the mishna:

Though these forbade what the others permitted, and these regarded as ineligible what the others declared eligible, Beth Shammai nevertheless did not refrain from marrying women from Beth Hillel, nor did Beth Hillel refrain from marrying women from Beth Shammai. [Similarly...] neither of them abstained from using the utensils of the others for the preparation of food that was ritually clean. (Y'vamot 1:4)

There is plenty of halakhic ground on which to work out a deal. Read Marc Angel's book for more information.

Those interested in authentic conversion law might also pay attention to the book of Ruth this week. Ruth joins the nation NOT out of love of Torah but rather out of a sense of duty to her mother-in-law and dead husband (to generate an heir). I'll post about this later this week.

[Ahavah]

Ben, you're absolutely right. Chereidi Judaism, especially Ashkenaz, is a product of the European rationalist tradition with a huge dose of white-racist Catholicism thrown in for good measure. There is nothing authentic about it - Moshe and Aharon would not recognize them as Hebrews at all. And, of course, their "min har Sinai" myth is contradicted by the Tanakh itself, as told in the book of Kings when a copy of Deuteronomy was found and neither the King nor the Cohen HaGadol even recognized it - it had to be taken to a WOMAN prophetess to be authenticated. So much for "min har Sinai." It's a fabrication formulated to provide them with a veneer of legitimacy when they embarked on their imperialistic plan to take control of all Judaism. If you tell a lie long enough, people believe it. And their lies have had a long shelf life, because those who knew the truth are long dead and their works buried.

[Isa]

Regarding:
""""He expressed concern that foreign workers and Palestinians could easily convert this way and become Israeli citizens.""""
What is wrong with that? Just so long as they are sincere.

[Yoisef]

The odds of a Palestinian converting in order to get citizenship are probably next to zero. They'd be killed by their families for converting out of Islam, which is a capital offense according to that "religion of peace"

[Ben]

Funny fact: Many Harei children's books about Pesah show all Jews in black capotas with long side curles and fedora hats or shtreimels depending on your particular Haredi type. Moshe Rabbeinu is shown in the biggest Shtreimel or biggest Hat.

Mainstream Ashkenazik haredi views are very racist. They could easily fit Nazi pure race idelogy, if only that ideology did not exclude them.

[Michael Makovi]

http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/05/hadash-assur-min-hatorah.html ---->

Hadash assur min haTorah

Translation: "Innovation (lit. "anything new") is forbidden by the Torah."

Source: Clever wordplay by the Hatam Sofer, based on the fact that "new grain" (hadash) is assur (forbidden) until the Omer is brought on the second day of Pesah. Evidently, the Hatam Sofer was assisted by a certain Rabbi Orwell, but historians are in some doubt as to his identity.

Explanation: Ostensibly it means to uphold traditional Jewish belief and practice. But actually - as part of disingenuous ironic language with two meanings, the true intention being not the apparent literal meaning, but rather the less obvious opposite meaning - it indicates rather that any Haredi innovations must be maintained, no matter how contrary to tradition they may be. But in truth, Haredi innovations may indeed be overturned in favor of still newer innovations; rather, the real point is that (quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Smith) we must "rewrite historical documents so they match the constantly changing current party line".

----------------

But seriously: As I write in my "One Man's Judaism: A Reply to Eli Putterman's “The Theological Concessions of Modern Orthodoxy” (Kol haMevaser 2:7)":

... Rabbi Hirsch has just said that the Haredi opposition to mundane occupation is not only a concession to historical conditions, but, moreover, it is a syncretic import from Christianity! And some ask the Modern Orthodox community for justification of its own beliefs and practices! "Before you point out the peg in between my eyes, remove the beam from between your eyes." ... All salvation is “otherworldly”; nothing much worth while may really be done with “this World.” This, of course, is a fairly well-known Christian position. But is the Haredi “Torah-only” position really any different? True, Haredism gives expression to the need for parnassah, but save this, one is to study Torah all day long in yeshiva. Replace “study Torah” with “pray” and “in yeshiva” with “in the monastery”, and one struggles to differentiate the Haredi interpretation of Torah from the Christian one. Thus, we can clearly understand why Rabbi Hirsch, as we saw earlier, attributed the “Torah-only” approach to Christianity, and why he said it was an un-Jewish un-traditional notion attributable, at best, to the exigencies of history, to bediavad life in the ghetto. And one asks for traditional textual sources for the Torah im Derekh Eretz or Torah u'Madda approaches?! Once one points out the source for “Torah-only” in the Christian Bible, one is almost tempted to take any other alternative, even one without any source in Jewish literature; the randomly and chaotically chosen alternative to “Torah-only” cannot be any worse than “Torah-only” itself, after all, unless it is downright pure avodah zara of the most classical sort! ... Given the fact that the Torah encompasses all of human society, all of human civilization, all of humankind, I have taken to saying that the “Torah-only” philosophy of Haredism is essentially akin to Reformism; if the Reformers negated the Torah itself, the form (according to Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg), then the Haredim have negated the derekh eretz, the matter. But either way, one without the other is nothing, and so both have equally negated the Torah, each in their own ways. I say it again: the Haredim are as destructive to the Torah as the Reformers.

[Radical Feminist]

Actually I met one Palistinean convert from the village. I don't know how he came to Judaism but, it was understood that if his family found out he would be killed. He would show up at the Rabbi's house for Shabbat dinner and then leave back to the village without his family knowing. he was actually a nice guy and the Orthodox protected him, which is a good thing. I use to see him at Shabbat dinners. He seemed very sincere.

[Radical Feminist]

Does anybody beside me think that Islam in the Middle-East today is closer to the Judaism of 2000 years ago then todays modern Haredi?

[Ben]

RF, Islam is a religious political system bend on world domination by any means necessary. Beheadings, use of children as little as 7 years old in suicide operations, rampant discrimination of women, hatred of infidel...

There is very little in common between Islamic house of horror and Judaism of 2000 years ago.

[Radical feminist]

I was referring to the religeon of Islam started in Saudi Arabia and influenced by Jewish diologue with Muhamid 1200 years ago. Islam was heavily influenced by Jews and Judaism.

[SJ]

>> Minister of Religious Services Yakov Margi added that by sanctioning non-Orthodox conversions the government would cause a national rift – "two people in the State of Israel that are separated from one another

This is such bull shit, there already is a national rift.

1) Orthodox view reform as total heretics (while the orthodox blathers about national unity mind you).

2) Orthodox don't enter reform synagogues.

3) Othodox and reform never get romantically involved.

Looks like a rift if you ask me.

[Ben]

Rift is also between orthodox and secular. I've read orthodox opinions prohibiting marrying kibbutzniks, since they are likely to be mamzerim.

There are many Haredi families that would never not marry a convert. There are many Haredi families that would never marry a Baal Teshuva.

It seems to me that, at present time, most of rift is created by Haredi zelots. They are working tierlessly to widen the rift between themselves and everybody else, all the way screaming brotherhood and unity slogans. It seems to me that they are either a bunch of hypocrites, or else buch of logically challenged people.

[Yonah]

SJ - completely what I was thinking, that there already is a rift - no wait, LOTS of rifts. An Orthodox rabbi would already not allow someone he considers Jewish to marry a Reform convert... what's the difference?

I really hope the state funding equality thing goes through, if only because it might mean Orthodox authorities would be a little more humane in their own practices, causing more people to be brought under the wings of the Shekhinah.

[radical feminist]

You also have the dynastic nature of Haredi to consider; where you must be born the descendant of the "Right" family to be part of the in crowd. this has yielded a kind of Haredi snobbery.

[itchiemayer]

Yonah - I hope you are not suggesting that an orthodox Rabbi not condoning a marriage between a halachic Jew and a reform "convert" is inhumane. The fact is that Israel is a secular nation, and while I prefer the orthodox be in control of conversions, I must admit that I can't logically justify it for the secular state of Israel. I don't consider a non-orthodox conversion valid, but we deal with this issue in the states, and we can deal with it in Israel as well. it is what it is.

[Dr. dave]

There are many Haredi families that would never not marry a convert. There are many Haredi families that would never marry a Baal Teshuva.

This is why there is so much inbreeding and geneic disorders manifest in the chareidi pedigrees.

My proselyte wife and I have DNA that has not intermingled in millenia (if ever) and hence we have 4 beautiful intelligent Jewish daughters who are MO and outshine anyone you see at Beit Yaakov.

[itchiemayer]

Dr. Dave - Mazel tov on your 4 MO daughters, but you really turned your comment sour with your derogatory reference to Beis Yaakov. My daughter goes to the local Yeshiva High School and not the BY, so I don't have a bias toward BY. However, they also turn out some wonderful girls, and your comment was just totally unnecessary. Be thankful for what you have, and don't feel obliged to disparage others. Don't be so sure of yourself, you may have granddaughters that go to BY. I am not defending those orthodox who put more stock on yichus than on the neshomas of prospective mates. But it is unnecessary to compare your children with others.

[radical feminist]

hmm Dr Dave; are you implying that Jewish children and women are less attractive?

[Dr. dave]

IM-

No!!What I am stating is that anyone who avoids marrying a convert besides violating many D'oraysot, because they feel that their offspring are tainted is wrong.

I should have said that my daughters (bli eyin ra) are literally at the top of their classes in both limudei kodesh and chol (at orthodox schools), and yes they know more of each than their BY friends (who are at the top of their respective classes), are not promiscuous or doing drugs as occurs at both their school and many BYs (they avoid the situations but unfortunately know girls who do not).

There are of course many intelligent beautiful BY girls out there. Mine just happen to be the best.

RF -

My wife and daughters are fully Jewish. Are you implying that they are not?

Of course, all this may be just be a proud father angling for a nice father's day present.

[itchiemayer]

DD - Believe me as a divorced Kohen, I wish I could expand my pool to include converts!

Of course, my daughter is better than all of yours combined! :-)
Just kidding. Baruch Hashem, we should be b'simcha with what we have! I have two beautiful, intelligent children I would not trade for anything. We should all get, b'ezras Hashem, much nachas from our children.

[Dr. dave]

IM -

Amen

[Isa]

Dear itchiemayer:

You are not allowed to marry divorcees.
What if the divorcee has an ex-husband that dies. now what?
I assume you are allowed to marry widows-correct me if I am wrong.

[itchiemayer]

Isa - Yes widows are permitted, provided that they were not divorced or otherwise ineligible prior to marrying their spouse who died.
If the ex-husband dies, then the woman is still considered a divorcee. If the get has not been delivered yet, then she would be a widow. Timing is everything!

[Yonah]

itchiemayer - Clearly not, I was referring to attitudes in the process itself.

It's unnecessary and sad but true that some Orthodox rabbis treat those converting under them with surprising harshness. I don't mean about turning them away, which is of course required, I mean things like constant suspicion, even post-conversion, and sometimes cruel attitudes (the latter of course can be found in every denomination, although I haven't experienced it much there personally).

[Dr. Dave]

Itchie -

Have you thought of starting an online dating service for young virgins in search of Kohanim.

You have alot to offer: All the Terumah you can eat (just the small matter of the Beit Mikdash being rebuilt first).

[itchiemayer]

DD - I wouldn't mind a widow with a little bit of "experience", if you know what I mean! I'm not that thrilled about the possibility of having to "break someone in".
On the other hand, that should be the worst thing to ever happen to me!

[justayid]

to clarify wrt to Palestinians presumably Mr Yishai was referring to resident of the disputed/occupied territories who are not israeli citizens, and are not his constituents (not yet, anyway) rather than to Israeli Arabs who ARE his constituents, but are ALREADY Israeli citizens.

Of course it is most unlikely for reasons cited above that they would attempt to convert to Judaism, and of course that is only a scare tactic.

[justayid]

"I hope you are not suggesting that an orthodox Rabbi not condoning a marriage between a halachic Jew and a reform "convert" is inhumane"

I would hope that an Orthodox Rabbi would at least see the obligation to provide a pathway to an "acceptable" conversion, would ensure that pathway reflects the commitment to Judaism already shown by the Reform convert, and that what is being "dissed" is the halachic technicalities of the Reform conversion, and not the converts own seriousness.

And that the Orthodox rabbi recognize that to avoid a breach in the Jewish people requires mutual respect, and an openness to reasonable compromise.

[itchiemayer]

I'm not sure a reform conversion necessarily means a commitment to Judaism.
Moreover, a commitment to reform is far different than a commitment to orthodoxy.
You can argue all you want about the merits of orthodoxy, but for all practical purposes, reform Judaism and orthodox Judaism are not at all similar. Therefore, the commitment one shows to convert reform is radically different than the one to convert to orthodoxy. The fact is to make conversion too easy is a disservise for the one being converted, for from a Jewish perspective, to be a Jew means ultimate judgment as a Jew. I would hate to be judged negatively for eating treif if I didn't have to be (as in being born a non-Jew). I will acknowledge that in some cases, people who would have made great Torah observant Jews may have been knocked off the path by a Rabbi or two, and didn't end up converting. No system is perfect.
It should be a little too difficult than a little too easy. Is the Trumpess still on the path toward conversion?

[Ben]

Itchiemayer, you write "I will acknowledge that in some cases, people who would have made great Torah observant Jews may have been knocked off the path by a Rabbi or two, and didn't end up converting. No system is perfect."

When you talk about "some cases" are you talking about tens of thousands of Orthodox converts and their children invalidated with a stroke of a pen in Israel? Or perhaps you are referring to hundreds of thousands of converts in the US and their children and their grandchildren put in doubt by evil rav Amar, when he forced his rules on the country a couple of years ago?
Do you happen to realize that NO CONVERT feels secure any longer? If not today, then tomorrow some racist bigoted self righteous erev rav like Attias or Sherman could come around and destroy their lives and lives of their loved ones. Do you realize what a travesty it is? It is a bloody murder of thousands of souls that is happening in front of your own eyes and you are talking about "some cases"? Wake up!

[itchiemayer]

Ben - I am up. I have gone on record here a few times before saying the annulment of an orthodox conversion is a terrible thing. I am not talking about after the fact, but before the deed is done. Once a halachic beis din converts someone, it should be a done deal. I agree with you on that, but it does not annul my prior point.

[Yonah]

itchiemayer - I agree that a little too hard is better than a little too easy, and I have my suspicions and strong reservations about many "conversions." But we weren't talking about Reform, we were talking about within Orthodoxy, where in many cases it's a lot too hard. Your scenario of people who would have made good Torah-observing Jews being turned away is very well-put, although I think it is much more than a few cases.

I think Ben makes an interesting point as well; the more difficult it is to convert, the more difficult it is to believe that anybody would actually do that - the very strictness encourages suspicion. Again, we're on the same page in that I'm pro-strictness, yay strictness, hurrah standards, but nobody* should have to break their heart and spend years kept on the outside of the community and Torah they love so much.

*OK, almost nobody

[justayid]

"I'm not sure a reform conversion necessarily means a commitment to Judaism"

I am not being binary here. Judaism, even per an O definition INCLUDES a commitment to halacha, torah msinai, but it includes MORE than that. It includes a commitment to torah period, a commitment to jewish life period, a commitment to monotheism, opposition to idolatry, etc, etc. A convert to Judaism under Reform auspices would, I would presume still require not merely a pro forma, O conversion, but specific commitment to halacha, etc - but in the course of asking for that commitment, I would think that the O rabbi should acknowledge that by undergoing reform conversion, study, etc they have already made the first steps, have made an effort, etc. IE they should not be treated like any gentile who came in off the street. If O cant even do that, then the rejection of R is such as to endanger the Jewish people.

Kol vachomer wrt to a C convert, who HAS expressed commitment to Halacha, etc.

(I could go on about the more traditional wing in R, and how SOME pockets of R arent quite as far from O as you suggest, but thats for another time, and as a C jew, I dont follow the issues as well as I would like)