Kitniyot – A Karaite Custom?

Is our ban on kitniyot derived from the Karaite understanding of hametz?

Kitniyot – a Karaite custom?
Does the custom of not consuming Kitniyot during Passover perhaps derive from a Karaite interpretation of Chametz
Rabbi David Bar-Hayim

Most people know that Ashkenazi Jews do not eat Kitniyot – rice, millet, lentils, beans, corn and legumes – during Passover. Few people know why. This is hardly surprising: Ashkenazim don’t know either.

This customary stringency, or custom, is strange, to say the least; it stands in stark contradiction to authoritative Jewish law. The Mishna clearly states that only the five species of grain – two varieties of wheat and three of barley– when mixed with water can rise and leaven, defined in the Torah as Chametz.

The claim of one sage that rice should be added to the list is rejected out of hand by the Talmud.

Misconceptions

It is commonly believed that this custom came about either because wheat grains are sometimes found in rice etc., or due to the fact that rice, millet and the like are sometimes ground into a flour and might be confused with ‘real flour’. The facts, however, tell a different story.

The earliest mention of this peculiar custom is quoted in the name of R. Asher or Lunelle, a town in Provence (southern France), who died in or around 1215 CE. He states that “it is the universal custom not to eat Kitniyot during Pesach because they rise and leaven”. This claim is reiterated by R. Moshe Halawa, a Spanish rabbi of the late 14th century: “The sages of France claim that Kitniyot are forbidden…they stated this rule of thumb: ‘Anything that swells when cooked…is a minor form of Chametz’”. This very same statement is recorded by the Spanish sage Ritba in the name of “French rabbis”.

But that’s not all. Jewish law forbids cooking flour or dough during Passover unless these are placed directly into vigorously boiling water, in which case the intense heat prevents fermentation. Two medieval French authorities declare that Kitniyot may only be cooked on Pesach if they are placed directly into a boiling pot. These statements, which can only be understood in terms of the foregoing Halacha, constitute proof positive that the origin of this custom is the mistaken belief that Kitniyot can become chametz just like the five grains.

The common denominator of all the Halachic codifiers who mention this custom is easy to spot: they all resided in France. It can be readily demonstrated, however, that 100 years earlier the students of Rashi, who were active in northern France in the early 1100’s, knew nothing of this custom; they write that all manner of Kitniyot may be cooked during Pesach. R. Zerachya HaLevi, active in southern France towards the end of the 12th century, concurs. We thus conclude that this custom appeared in France towards the end of the 1100’s.

Early rabbinic responses

How did the rabbis of France respond to this anti-Halachic custom? Some tried to defend it. Knowing the claim that Kitniyot could become Chametz to be bogus, they attempted to offer alternate explanations such as those mentioned above.

Others rejected the custom out of hand. Rabbi Yerucham of Provence, for example, states plainly: “This is a foolish practice”. Rabbi Ye’hiel and Rabbi Judah, both of Paris, ignored the custom and ate Kitniyot on Pesach.

What of Germany (Ashkenaz)? The medieval authorities there were either silent or openly opposed to the custom, exemplified by this statement of Rabbi Ya’akov, son of the Rosh, in his famous work the Tur: “This is an extreme stringency and it is not the custom”.

Karaite connection?

Seeing that Jewish law and practice from time immemorial are emphatic that Kitniyot are permitted, perhaps we need to look further afield for the key to this riddle.

The Written Torah does not define the term ‘chametz’. It is the Oral Tradition that has provided the Jewish people with a working definition. But what of those without a tradition? The Karaites, lacking an oral tradition, struggled with this question. Many Karaites in the past and up to the present day consider anything fermented to be a form of chametz and do not consume vinegar and yoghurt on Pesach. As already noted, Kitniyot can be fermented and expand when cooked.

Does the custom of not consuming Kitniyot during Passover perhaps derive from a Karaite interpretation of Chametz? This possibility cannot be discounted – a number of customs and Halachic interpretations made their way into normative Judaism during the late Geonic period, the heyday of Karaitism, a fact attested to by no less an authority than Maimonides. This curious custom may simply be a further example of sectarian influences. Such an explanation does indeed fit the documented facts.

Rabbi David Bar-Hayim is the head of Machon Shilo and is a Torah visionary and scholar with mastery of Mishnah, Talmud Bavli, Talmud Yerushalmi, Rambam, Ramban and more. You can read more of his work at www.machonshilo.org.

Comments

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

There are multiple reasons for kitniyos, fermentation being only one of them.

Bar-Hayim doesn't know this?

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"Rabbi David Bar-Hayim is the head of Machon Shilo and is a Torah visionary and scholar"

You also have to wonder about anyone who trumpets on behalf of himself with such accolades. Kind of like another rabbi who sometimes comments here.

[maven]

I don't think R. Bar_Chayim actually wrote that per se, I don't think he speaks English. I couldn't find an original text from his site talking about the Karaites, so it was probably a supposition on his part, but he has a good halachic argument based on the Rishonim that's worth looking at in depth, which is probably why apparently all the Rabbis in Israel jumped on him. (but of course, Israel and Israeli concepts of Judaism don't even enter Shmarya's time line, so they don't count unless they seem to be supporting Karaism).

[Dan Rabinowitz]

The suggestion that kitnoyot is a karaite custom has been offered some 200 years ago. In the responsa Besamim Rosh, Berlin, 1792, a responsum, attributed to R. Asher b. Yehiel, although there is a question as to its authenticity, theorizes that kitniyot is a karite custom.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

http://www.karaites.org/content/view/13/34/#passover

this url of the karaites jews of america covers the prohibition of qitniyot. they eat rice though.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"Besamim Rosh, Berlin, 1792, a responsum, attributed to R. Asher b. Yehiel, although there is a question as to its authenticity"

It's universally suspected as a forgery by people who think like Shmarya and who would go to lengths to make people think they are orthodox like DW.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Another reason the Karaite theory doesn't have a leg to stand on is that the Karaites even prohibit items with limited fermentation like processed cheese.

[critical_minyan]

the reason for the ban on kitniyot is probably because it made some godol at that time gassy.
another option is that the rabbi in some town wanted the bean seller to pay for a hashgacha and the bean sales guy wouldnt do it, similar to the Streit's crap that went on this year.

[Chicago Samson]

Hacham Avraham Qanai wrote back to me:

Samson,

The guy has his head up his ass and is making things up to “prove” his contention. While we forbid all things soured/fermented, we do not have any prohibition of using things that would expand in cooking. We use rice and legumes (fava beans, green beans, peas) all the time during Pesah. In fact, they are our staples!!! At our Seder the other evening we had: Massah, Merorim, artichokes, rice, fava beans, a mixture of sautéed eggplant, zucchini, peppers, and onions; and grape juice.

Attached are the article and responsa concerning Qitniyot. Also, here is an excerpt from “An Introduction to Karaite Judaism” concerning forbidden foods during Pesah:
Prohibited Items: Hames, Se’or And Mahmeset

In the Torah, there are three different things we are prohibited from consuming, or possessing over Hagh HaMassot that are usually [in English] lumped together under the catch-all term, “leaven”. These items – Se’or, Hames, and Mahmeset – are actually distinct. David b. Abraham al-Fasi’s, Kitab Jami` al-Alfaz (ed. S.L. Skoss, New Haven, 1936-1945) includes two relevant entries in his dictionary. HAMES (vol. 1, p. 560, lines 67-69): mukhtamar (“something soured/fermented”); and SE’OR (vol. 2, p. 300, lines 73-75): Se’or = khamir (“leaven, sourdough”), Hames = mukhtamar (“something soured/fermented”) and Mahmeset = “anything whose form is of the soured/fermented things . . . . comes under Mahmeset”.

The Karaite Hakham Ya‘aqov al-Qirqisani in his Kitabu ’l-Anwar wa ’l-Maraqib wrote that that includes such things like “anything that uses (=contains?) bunn (“coffee beans”) [since the coffee cherry must be fermented in order to separate the flesh from the bean], kishk [“kishk” – a mixture of bulgur and milk that is dried; for a description check Edward Lane’s Manners and Customs of the Modern Day Egyptians], and kamakh (“vinegar, pickles”)”. David al-Fasi's definitions align with one of the views expounded by Yefet Ben-‘Eli (Paris Bibliotheque Nationale ms.). See also Aharon Ben Eliyahu, Sefer Gan ‘Eden, ‘Inyan Hagh HaMassot, ch. 1, fol. 45, col. b[1], and Adderet Eliyahu, ‘Inyan Hagh HaMassot, ch 4, Odessa, 1872, fols. 66-67.

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[1] Aharon distinguishes between Se’or (something inedible, which is added to dough to leaven it, i.e. leaven/sour dough), Hames (edible, e.g. bread or other soured/fermented food), and Mahmeset (a mixture of Hames and something else, such as Shekhar HaMadday).

In Mourad El-Kodsi’s The Karaite Jews of Egypt 1882-1986 he describes the Passover table “A rich table was always ready to welcome the holy day: barbecued lamb, bitter herbs (merorim), as mentioned in the Torah, a special massah for the blessing, rice, various kinds of vegetables, especially stuffed grape leaves [and fava beans], and, of course, “wine” made especially for Passover [15].”

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[15] The Karaites would soak red seedless raisins [in the refrigerator or ice box] less than 24 hours before reading the Haggadah, in order to sure that they would not ferment. The raisins were then squeezed and drained to produce a brownish juice that replaced wine for the blessing and the service. [this is made fresh everyday during Hagh HaMassot, and just before Shabbat for use on Shabbat, and kept chilled to prevent fermentation].

None of the Sefaradim, Italqim, Yemenite, or Oriental Rabbanite Jews, who lived where the majority of Karaite Jews did, have the Minhagh of not consuming Qitniyot. The Minhagh of not consuming Qitniyot was something that developed pure amongst the Ashkenazi Rabbanite Jews of Northern France and the Rhineland (places where there never were any Karaites until the 20th century!!!). When the Ashkenazim were expelled from the Rhineland they brought that Minhagh with them to Eastern Europe. As the article by Rabbi Golinkin points out, the Ashkenazi Minhagh did not develop until the 12th century and it was due to a misunderstanding of not eating beans instead of meat on Haggim because it was, in Rabbanite tradition, a sign of mourning and it is forbidden to mourn on Haggim. Those 12th century Ashkenazim forgot what the original reason for abstaining from beans instead of meat and assumed that it must have something to do with Hames because Pesah is the only Hagh that has dietary restrictions.

[Chicago Samson]

For those of you who do not know Hakham Avraham Qanai, he knows over 25 languages, including Sanskrit, Sumerian, Paleo-Arabic, and Paleo-Hebrew, etc. He is literally one of the most brilliant minds I have ever met, and he never minces his words. Avraham is like a walking Encyclopedia Judaica.

From Wikepedia:

Avraham Ben-Rahamiël Qanaï is considered a Hakham, a religious leader of the Karaite Jewish communities and serves as the Hakham of the Karaite community of Albany, New York.

Hakham Qanaï studied with the late Chief Hakham ‘Immanu’el Ben-Mosheh Mass‘ouda, the late Chief Hakham David Yerushalmi, Former Chief Hakham Hayyim Levi, present Chief Hakham Eliyahu Marzouq, Deputy Chief Hakham Mosheh Dabbah, Hakham Yosef El-Gamil, and the late Hakham Zekharyah Rahamim Levi. It was Hakham ‘Immanu’el that bestowed the title of Hakham upon Hakham Qanaï.

Hakham Qanaï has been involved in perpetuating learning among his people, and took part in the authorship of the book "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism: A Guide to Karaite Theology, Observance and History" in which the authors delve deep into what it means to be a Karaite.

http://www.orahsaddiqim.org/

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Very interesting. Samson has nothing but scorn to offer for any rabbi who doesn't brown his nose with "open orthodoxy", yet he heaps praise on the Karaites who distort the Torah.

What about Mordechai Hatzaddik who knew 70 languages? Was he just another "stupid Haredi"?

And if by his measure, the Jewish pretender from Albany is a "walking Encyclopedia Judaica", does that make Shmarya the pious man of the generation?

[Chicago Samson]

Hmmmm... the article obviously pressed your buttons.

My friend, I did nothing but post my friend's letter to me; I have personally nothing against "the Torah visionary and and scholar" who masters the "the Mishnah, Talmud Bavli, Talmud Yerushalmi, Rambam, Ramban and more."

However, I will tell you that if you want to know a true Karaite opinion, then go to a real Karaite and get an answer. Avraham has been a friend of mine for many years, but I have many rabbinite friends as well. You wouldn't ask a molecular biologist to give an opinion on how to be a fireman, would you? Maybe Mr. Groaner, you possibly would--but you are entitled to disagree all you like. I think most folks would go to the expert of a given field.

As for your personal attack on me, all I can say is, if you have an argument with Hakham Avraham, then try to make it (if you can), if not, you may want to try thinking of one instead of kvetching at the person who merely introduced an alternative perspective. In other words, stop your whining and try arguing like an adult otherwise you risk sounding like a "stupid Haredi."

Sorry to be so blunt with you, but I definitely prefer the "open orthodoxy" you seem to scorn so much where every point of view has a place at the interpretive table of discussion--even points of view where we differ from one another. I personally find Hakham Avraham's kashrut observance too strict for my taste (pun intended), but I enjoy hearing a contrarian point of view because he makes me think.

By the way, what evidence in the story of Esther do you have that Mordechai understood 70 languages?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

I first met Avraham Qanai perhaps 35 years ago, and about 15 years ago spent several months working closely with him. He is no "pretender."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ethiopian Jews don't eat yoghurt during Pesach, because it's fermented. I thought qitniyot were forbidden due to an analogy between treating fowl as basar (due to a resemblence) and treating beans as grains.

[Yochanan Lavie]

CS, OCR: I don't want to reject any interpretation out of hand, simply because a non-Ortho thought of it. So I am interested in what Conservatives and Karaites have to say, even if I don't always agree with them. (I include thoughtful chareidim in my range, for that matter; they do exist). Reform and Recon are too off the derech for my tastes, but I love them as fellow Jews. Within in the traditional camp (which is a broad camp for me), let the opinions fly! I seriosuly flirted with Karaism after being burned by a rabbi recently for the umpteenth time, but decided I didn't want to throw out the rabbinite baby with the rabbinite bathwater. And I need to be a part of a community- I don't live near any Karaites. So I am still rabbinic, but open to Karaite interpretations.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

" first met Avraham Qanai perhaps 35 years ago, and about 15 years ago spent several months working closely with him. He is no "pretender." "

"no pretender" is may be fine, but the man's expresses himself in a way not appropriate to most hakhamim of any creed, jewish or otherwise.
In anycase, his opinions seem to clash with those of the Karaites of America. Is there a difference between East Coast and West Coast? Would the venerable Hakham express himself the same -rude- way about his fellow Karaites of the West Coast?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Is there a difference between East Coast and West Coast? Would the venerable Hakham express himself the same -rude- way about his fellow Karaites of the West Coast?

YBM: Maybe it's like Tupac vs. Biggie.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

[and fava beans], and, of course, “wine” made especially for Passover [15].”

"Fava Beans considered as Qitniyot", is not the whole story.
In our Middle Eastern community, we also eat green broad beans (fava- not dried) that comes on the markets around Pessach,
French green beans (Haricots), but not dried beans, nor dried chick peas etc...
As to raisin wine made overnite in a fridge, I don't know what to make of it. A- There were no fridges in most household in Egypt (not even in most American households) when the Hakham was a kid.
B- Dry raisins in a fridge overnite, will not yieald any wine, or juice or a semblance of either.
Flawed recollections by the Hakham? Looks like it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Bean Eater (apologies to Reo Speedwagon):

I've just closed my eyes at sedar
Climbed aboard the bean eater cheder
Rabbi take away my worries of Pesach
And leave chumrot behind

Ooy bean eater
I believe you can get me through Pesach
Ooy bean eater
I believe we can reach a better p'sak.

Fly me high through the gassy tummy
Maybe to a chulent plate
Off the derech of bad cuisine
Help me to forget the gas pain.

Ooy bean eater
I believe it's better being Sephardi
Ooy bean eater
I believe Gas-X can stop me ....ing

Though the dawn may be coming soon
The sedar will still last some time
Fly me across to the bright side Yam Suph
And meet Moshe on the other side

Ooy bean eater
I believe you can get me past this minhag
Ooy bean eater
I believe I can take some Triaminic.

Bean Eater (3x)

[steve]

That's Gary Wright not REO Speedwagon, circa 1976.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sorry, that's what Lyricsfreak told me. I stand corrected.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

I called Avraham Quixotic a pretender because he is not Jewish.

[Dave Marshall]

Yochanan, very funny- Biggie and Tupac ! Ha ha ! Hilarious song (except I don't know the original).
What makes me laugh also is that here we are- in the 21st century with 13.5 million Jews (and our numbers dropping) out of 6 billion people worldwide, and here we are arguing rabbinical vs. karaite Judaism, and
re-hashing the debates of the 10th century c.e.
Does the phrase "re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic" ring a bell?
It should.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"what evidence in the story of Esther do you have that Mordechai understood 70 languages?"

So in other words, the "rabbi" of "open orthodoxy" doubts the veracity of a statement from Chazal. Maybe he should change his name to Chicago Spam.

For the rest of the readers who do not have an axe to grind, Mordechai was a member of the Sanhedrin where it was a prerequisite to be fluent in the 70 languages spoken at the time. And that's when there was a real Sanhedrin, not some phony concoction by dreamers like Adin "Even Israel" Steinsaltz.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"treating beans as grains"

Yes as in when they are made into flour it is difficult to tell them apart.

Kitniyos can also be the result of crops being grown in close proximity that leads to contamination.

And I'm surprised the parody missed a reference to Beano which is supposed to be a top selling remedy in Israel. As the ad goes, "Lo shamaata? Lo Hirgashta?"

[Yochanan Lavie]

Reb Groaner: I am glad you appreciated my parody. I missed beano- that's a good one! I am open to all pov's, but please don't be ad hominem. People are more apt to listen to what you say if you refrain from insulting them. Gut moed, and chag sameach.

Dave: I agree. We are in a pissing contest when we should be cooperating for our mutual survival.

[Chicago Samson]

Sorry to disappoint you my caustic friend, but Karaites are most certainly a sect of Judaism, and the Geniza documents prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I am doubtful whether you even realize what the Geniza documents are. The Responsa literature also supports the fact that Karaites are Jews.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Reb Groaner: I deeply respect Chazal, as does CS and most (maybe not all) posters here. But "Chazal said it, and I believe it, and that settles it" just doesn't work for me, or most other people. On what basis do they make a claim- they are undoubtedly on a higher madriga than I, but they are not infallible.

And yes, Chazal said Karaites are Jews. They just have to declare allegiance to the Oral Law to be admitted back into the kehilla- they are not treated halachically like Gentiles.

[Chicago Samson]

I must apologize for accidentally causing others here to speak lashon hara; Hakham Avraham wrote that response to me as a personal communication, and I should have edited the opening lines, so if anyone here is offended by his critical tone, be angry only with me; he does not realize the letter was put on the website in its entirety.

[Chicago Samson]

++ So in other words, the "rabbi" of "open orthodoxy" doubts the veracity of a statement from Chazal. Maybe he should change his name to Chicago Spam.++

Another amusing statement. You obviously believe that everything the Sages say is infallible, right? I guess the Pope and the Sages have something in common, don't they?

Do you also believe that the giant Og hitched a ride on Noah's ark and tried to get Abraham killed so he could marry Sarah his wife? You probably also think Yitzchak married Rivkah when she was three years old, right?

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

In today's day & age, I am not aware of any halachic authority that agrees Karaites are Jews. You can try invoking some rabbis of the Rabbanut all you want but rabbis are not authorities because they were appointed by a secular government.

Even if you can eke out some weak argument that they are Jews, they are all mamzerim because they did not follow the halachos of divorce.

The issur of lashon hara applies to those that are "bichlal amisecha" which excludes Karaites from the prohibition.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Og actually followed behind the ark in the cool waters that surrounded it. There is no sefer that states he travelled ON the ark. Did you actually not know that or is that some stunt at open ortho-heresy to join forces with Shmarya to belittle the Chazal? There are also plenty of references to where Og's fellow giants were womanizers in general, so why do you find it so hard to believe he coveted Sara? Yitzchak & Rivka is a big discussion, beyond the scope of answering your little cheap shots.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Hey Sefiras, where do you get this Og character?

I hope you realize that your 'chachomim' actually just made him up, probably while smoking ganja.

The fact that someone gives himself the title 'Chachom' ('Genius') and claims infalliblity tells me all I need to know.

Did Og write anything? Did Og have a blog? I think I saw Og driving on the NJ Turnpike, behind a boat being towed.

+Og's fellow giants were womanizers+
Of course, as is the Great Pumpkin.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Woolly boy, there was an entire race of giants, also known as the Anakim, that the Bible discusses. Og was the last of their kind. And what does Charlie Brown have to do with it

[WoolSilkCotton]

There are San Francisco Giants, and there are New York Giants.
There's also the NBA, where many players are close to 7 ft. tall.
But I digress.

Please realize that you have spent a great deal of your life and brain capacity studying and memorizing silly useless folk tales, and , what's even worse, you think it's all Divine Truth from On High. I'm sure you are a nice person, and you mean well, but I feel badly that you've wasted so much of yourself. Oh well, I used to be the same way.

[Chicago Samson]

++ The issur of lashon hara applies to those that are "bichlal amisecha" which excludes Karaites from the prohibition.++

I suppose using the same strained logic, the Ten Commandments do not apply to non-Jews as well, right? More specifically, are theft, adultery, and murder forbidden if the victim happens to be a non-Jew?

Here's another moral question for us to explore:

Would you desecrate the Sabbath to save the life of non-Jew, or even a Reform or Karaite Jew?

This question, I believe cuts to the heart of the discussion we have been having since last week.

Kindly answer my questions, and let us see whether we might find some common ground between us.

[Chicago Samson]

This note is for the Office of the Chief Rabbi:

Hakham Avraham wanted me to ask you what specific project did you work with him on, some fifteen years ago or so? Please write me at sender12@aol.com or contact Avraham at hakham@orahsaddiqim.org.

Thanks

[Dave Marshall]

Reb Groaner, funny that you probably accept Reform and Conservative, and yet Karaites are "off the map" as far as you're concerned. Yet the Karaites believe in Torah mi'Sinai, and all their sages' rulings are consistent with that, yet you write them off, because they don't believe in the Oral Law as being from Hashem. Therefore to be consistent you should also write off all Conservative and Reform, since they either explicitly deny the Oral law as being divine, per Reform, or defacto do not accept the Oral Law's rulings per Conservative- to wit their gutless ruling on gay ordination. However I guess you're not writing off Conservative and Reform, since their members are numerous and have lots of gelt that they can donate to various haredi organizations. Well, well, very consistent, aren't we (sarcasm).

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

CS - I'll contact him directly, as it is written "It's a local call."

Has Archie risen from the dead as Sfirah boy, or did we just step into something new?

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"Oh well, I used to be the same way"

And you sound like you were perhaps burned by people while experimenting with religion which doesn't mean you have to reject every belief.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"the Ten Commandments do not apply to non-Jews as well, right? More specifically, are theft, adultery, and murder forbidden if the victim happens to be a non-Jew?"

The prohibition of all those vile acts apply everywhere. Surely you know that. I don't know why you would even bother to pose the question unless you think that your mere insinuations score points against Haredim regardless of what I answer.

"Would you desecrate the Sabbath to save the life of non-Jew, or even a Reform or Karaite Jew?"

We save everyone and there is no contradiction from lashon hara since we are stringent with pikuach nefesh.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"Karaites believe in Torah mi'Sinai"

Please explain. I'd be interested to hear what kind of explanation you can "Marshall".

We do not write off the secular denominations since they are relatively new and we can follow their marital status with govt records. There are no records going back over 1000 years for Karaites.

"Conservative and Reform, since their members are numerous and have lots of gelt that they can donate to various haredi organizations"

I suppose if I were connected to any organization that takes their money, you could accuse me of that.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Groaner: Look at the Karaite websites. They believe that Torah she'be'ktav to be Min HaShamayim, and 100% from God, m'Sinai. They don't believe in Torah Baal Peh, however.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Kariates beleive in all the prohibitions on arayot listed in the torah. They are scrupulous about them. That's why they are accepted back into the rabbinic community, without conversion, if they renounce their former beliefs and embrace the oral law. We do not embrace mamzerim unto the 10th generation, however.

[Nobody]

As a response to Avaraham Qanai and he who quoted him.

Your response was disrespectful and inappropriate, but ignoring that, let's focus in on some facts.

1. "During the seven days of Passover, Karaites refrain from eating any grains that have to be soaked before cooking, including all kinds of beans.'"
http://www.karaites.org/content/view/13/34/#passover

2. "and the sage our teacher Yosef Kirkisani said... only the five types of grain can be made into Hametz, namely wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye. And the sage was correct because whatever experimentation shows to leaven can be used for Matzah, but the flour of the other 'seeds' do not leaven. For example, [the flour of] millet, rice, beans, lentils, and peas do not leaven but spoil [lit. 'stink']." [Aharon ben Eliyahu (14th Century), Gan Eden, pp.45d-46a].

"The sage Yosef Kirkisani said that only the five types of grain can be made into Hametz, namely, wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye. It has also been said that if experimentation shows that a thing can become leaven then it can be used to make Matzah. However, all the other 'seeds' such as bean, lentil, pea, millet, and rice flours do not leaven but spoil [lit. stink]. And the sage our teacher Aharon (author of Etz Hayyim) said that all of these matters can become known through experimentation and he has spoken well for millet flour if left with water for a number of days does leaven. Therefore, in truth, there are six types of grain that can leaven and from which Matzah can be made: the aforementioned five as well as millet. And if Hametz is made from any of these it must be destroyed... and so too any alcohol made from the five types of grain [e.g. beer] or from millet. But some of the fools in our times who pretend to be wise do not eat anything that ferments based on the verse 'no leaven shall you eat' such as fermented milk [i.e. yogurt, etc.] and fruits soaked in water; they also refrain from eating beans and rice and any type of 'seed' and this is because of their foolishness and their lack of knowledge..." [Elijah Baschyatchi (15th century), Aderet Eliyahu, Ramla 1966, pp.133-134]

from: karaite-korner dot org

So even if you argue that this is not "correct" by karaite standards, to refrain from kitniyoth, it is clear that on the one hand there is no unified solitary mesorah among the karaite history, and on the other hand, this well-known karaite sage Aharon reports that people mistakenly did keep this chumrah around the time when it became popular in France and spread elsewhere.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"They don't believe in Torah Baal Peh, however."

The Torah is a package deal and because there are aspects of gittin from Torah shebaal peh that they ignore, they have indeed become mamzerim over the centuries.

And it's ironic that Mr. Marshall Plan accuses Haredim of taking money. One of the only rabbis who has no problems with Karaites is the Israeli govt apppointed Rabbi Chelouche, whose brother, another govt appointee, is in hot water in a bribery and fraud scandal, as in the alleged recipient of bribes.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Let me clarify. To the best of my knowledge, the Chelouche brothers are modern orthodox and wear white kipot srugot.

[Nobody]

Also, please cite the source for "Rabbi Golinkin's article"

[Yochanan Lavie]

Groaner: Why do you insist on making fun of people's names? I don't like it when atheists assume a superior attitude, nor do I like it when "frum" people do. And name calling is childish.

[Dave Marshall]

Thanks, Yochanan. I appreciate your support, and also you explained the Karaite view better than I could.
Reb Groaner, maybe you don't belong to a haredi organization which takes money, but believe me there are many yeshivot that basically "schnor", and this goes for mitnagdim yeshivot and chassidic "yeshivot".
You see, the problem that some Jewish people have a kind of "my way or the highway" attitude. It's precisely that kind of attitude the resulted in the karaite-rabbinic split and later in the reform-conservative-orthodox split centuries later.
If a group public rejects an anti-written
Torah prohibition, then I agree that's unacceptable. However, the door must always be open for people who change their minds.
If not, one can be a very holy person in a congregation of one.

[Dave Marshall]

Oops, I meant to say
"if a group publicly rejects a written Torah prohibition".

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Blaming the orthodox for every lapsed Jew who left the fold to pursue the material is really lame.

There is also not much need to argue. If we were able to trace Karaite lineage we would not have to consider them to be mamzerim. But unlike the more recent Reform / Conservative, etc, we cannot go back that many generations.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I know of no authorities who give karaites a mamzer status, because they accept the torah's arayot prohibitions.

You may think it's lame to blame certain trends/individuals within Orthodoxy for people being disillusioned, but that is quite often the case. Like it or not.

Yes, there are also many positive attributes that keep people affiliated, and other reasons people drop out. But intolerance, mysogyny, and narrow-mindedness, while not exclusive to Orthodoxy can be found within large segments (not all segments, granted) of that community.

Blaming the messenger won't change the bad news.

[EileenK]

Excuse me,

But it is the year 2009 CE and sittingin my chametz box is about a pound of yellow corn meal. There would also be half a bag of soy flour, if I hadn't baked it into Cornell bread some time back. This argument needs a home baker not a rabbi to settle it.

With good quality modern yeast (In 800 years cooking technology has improved quite a bit) or with baking powder or baking soda, corn meal, soy flour, and probably other kitnyot flours rise wonderfully well. One has to combine them with other grains due to lack of gluten, but not because the finished product would be hard as a rock or sour.

American cooks do bake with kitnyot. My corn bread is 50% corn meal. My broa is 30% corn meal (Broa is Portugese wheat and corn bread). My Cornell bread is about 25% soy flour. I don't bake with rice flour, but I could if I wanted to. Buckwheat pancackes which are again somewhat levened are an American dish as well.

As much as I miss Coke (made with corn syrup) I know that the prohibition against kitnyot is valid given my own baking experience.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

"I know of no authorities who give karaites a mamzer status"

Speak to any posek (not affiliated with YCT that is). It's pretty simple if you think about it as arayos are not the only thing that causes mamzerus. There are also women who get remarried without a valid get. The San Fran Karaites have also restarted "conversions". There is no way these people are Jewish.

As far as intolerance, narrow-mindedness etc, there is plenty of that among seculars who hate religious people for no good reason.

[Shmarya]

American cooks do bake with kitnyot. My corn bread is 50% corn meal. My broa is 30% corn meal (Broa is Portugese wheat and corn bread). My Cornell bread is about 25% soy flour. I don't bake with rice flour, but I could if I wanted to. Buckwheat pancackes which are again somewhat levened are an American dish as well.

As much as I miss Coke (made with corn syrup) I know that the prohibition against kitnyot is valid given my own baking experience.

You may know how to bake but you do not know halakha.

1. The issue is not whether something can be made to rise (or to ferment, for that matter).

The issue is only whether or not that substance is allowed to be used to fulfill the mitzva of matza on Passover.

If it cannot be used as matza on passover, then it cannot be hametz – period, end of story.

Further, what you do when you bake is COMBINE these other 'flours' with real flour. If you did not do this, you would not get bread.

Buckwheat pancackes which are again somewhat levened are an American dish as well.

"[S]omewhat levened"? Please.

If you were to look at a Sefardi matza (which is identical to what an Ashkenazi matza was 300 years ago) you would see something that looks like soft Arabic flat bread or Naan. It may even be 3 or 4 inches thick.

Is this "leavened"?

If it is, Jews ate leaven on Passover for almost 3000 years, and those Jews would include Moses, King David and every sage in the Mishna and Gemara, along with all Rishonim and early Achronim.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Groaner: If the rabbis don't recognize anything the Karaites do as valid, then their kiddushin are invalid, and I would think no get is needed. Name a posek, rather than conjecture this is what they would probably say.

Although I think the kitniyot ban is ridiculous and I don't follow it, this is the only time of year to buy Classic Coke. Corn syrup is worse for you than cane sugar, and has a funny aftertaste. At least the kitniyot ban forces Coca cola to produce real sugar Coke once a year.

Some poskim wanted to outlaw potatoes as kitniyot, because you can bake with potato starch. But for very poor Jews in Eastern Europe, that's mostly all they ate. So the Vaad Arba Artzot overturned authorities such as the Chai Adam who wanted to call potatoes kitniyot.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Whenever mention of Karaites comes up in any yeshiva or shiur in a shul that I have been at, there has been an instant reflex mention that they are mamzerim / not Jewish. I will not name the rabbis to spare them being flamed by the usual suspects.

The argument that kiddushin are not valid either may not work here. The Karaites, at least in the early days were probably doing just enough to squeak by a valid marriage. (The Reform & Conservative of today are not doing enough according to at least one authority.)

And the issue of Karaites accepting improper converts is another insurmountable problem.

Ashkenazim just deciding to ignore the ban on kitniyos is forbidden unless they are from a region where a dispensation was given due to severe economic hardship. Minhag of this type is binding like halacha no matter how much Shmarya yells to the contrary until blue in the face.

Non-Jews are huge fans of Pesach coke, so much so that Jewish supermarkets in some places have a limit of 2 cases per customer because they were being cleared out by Coca Cola enthusiasts.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I guess I'm an alte Coker.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

The OU are also a bunch of alter Cokers. They allow corn-derived Aspartame in diet Coke. I suppose like Rubashkin, it`s too much of a lucrative opportunity to pass up.

[Yochanan Lavie]

According to many opinions, kitniyot derivatives that are no longer recognizable in their original form are not under the prohibition. Kitniyot is a shtuss minhag to begin with, and now chumrot are piled on top of it.

[Chicago Samson]

For Mr. Nobody,

Elijah Baschyatchi (15th century) is regarded by many Karaites of his era as a heretic; he actually tried integrating a number of rabbinite customs into the Karaite community, e.g., the lighting of the Shabbat candles. (Not that this bothers me one way or the other). Oh yes, I have been at the Hakham's Seder many times, and he does make the raisin wine within the time period he claims; I saw him make it, so there! He is actually an excellent cook and always invites many, many people despite the fact he lives on a meager salary.

Frankly, the fact there are many schools of Karaite thought doesn't surprise me any more than the fact there are many Sefardic schools or Ashkenazic schools of thought. Get it? Frankly, I enjoy religious pluralism in all of its forms, but I think it is important that whenever a scholar or layperson speaks about a specific religious tradition, e.g., the Karaite, or the Sephardic, or whatever, it is important to be very specific and not just clump every Karaite, or Sefardi together as if they were a singular group; there are Yemenite and there Morrocan, Iraqi, and Spanish Sephardic customs, etc. This ought to be obvious to all.

Hag Sameach

For those who have questions for Hakham Avraham, plz contact him at

hakham@orahsaddiqim.org

I think you will find his responses lucid and always fascinating. You and I will probably differ with him a vast variety of interpretive topics, but it is always fun to hear a different point of view.

I suggest that if any of you have any specific questions you would like to raise with Avraham, you can email him; plz don't blame him for my error in judgment regarding the private remark--he is very approachable and always helpful.

[Sefiras HaGroaner - Covering Shmarya's rants since 2009]

Chicago Sam, you are a farce!

You claim to be an "orthodox rabbi" yet you eat from a heretical Karaite who has no reliability in kashrus according to Shulchan Aruch and you enourage people to consult with him.

Are you another Conservative rabbi like David Willig who only claims to be orthodox when he trying to dupe Failed Messiah readers?

[WoolSilkCotton]

If you do not march lockstep with the mentally ill fanatic Groaner, you are a liberal communist gay Obama-loving heretic.

And remember, Jews are too stupid to think for themselves, and so are easily "duped" by Liberal Orthodox, Conservative and Reform rabbis. Just let Groaner do the thinking for you. Obey him, or else.

How dare you decide what to eat without consulting the King of Mental Illness Groaner? Repent now!

[Dave Marshall]

WSC, ha ha !
That reminds me of the cartoon that I saw once, by an English Jewish cartoonist.
It depicts a bearded rabbi with a borsalino hat, and wearing a "sandwich sign" which has written on both sides "Repent now and avoid the Yom Kippur rush !".
Shabbat Shalom.

[WoolSilkCotton]

A Gutten Shabbos to you too, Dave, and all the FM crew, and enjoy the challah tonight!

[Lisa]

Four points:

1. Maven, Rabbi Bar Hayim does speak English, as he is originally from Australia. And he definitely wrote this piece.

2. Sefiras HaGroaner, Rabbi Bar Hayimi did not, however, write the blurb about himself at the end of the article, so the suggestion that it was gayvadik for him to say that he's a visionary was wrong.

3. Chicago Samson, the statement in Hazal that Mordechai knew 70 languages isn't related to anything in the Megillah. In Ezra/Nehemiah, he is referred to by the full name of Mordechai Bilshan, and Hazal related "Bilshan" to "baal leshonot". It's a drash, because Mordechai Bilshan is merely a transliteration of the not uncommon Babylonian name "Marduk Belshunu", meaning "Marduk is their lord."

Also to Chicago Samson, "lo tirtzach" absolutely does not apply to a non-Jew. That isn't to say that murdering a non-Jew is acceptable halakhically. It's certainly forbidden. But the prohibition stems from "ha-shofech dam adam, b'adam damo yeshafech", and not from "lo tirtzach".

4. Shmarya, are the comments on your blog always so "civil"? It's a cesspool in here.

[Zvi]

"haGroaner" wrote:

>>>"Even if you can eke out some weak argument that they are Jews, they are all mamzerim because they did not follow the halachos of divorce.

"The issur of lashon hara applies to those that are "bichlal amisecha" which excludes Karaites from the prohibition."<<<

First off, as a Qaraite Jew I need no approval of Rabbanites for my Jewishness or its validity
Yet I guess the weakest argument I can eke out from a Rabbinic perspective is that the Rambam, arguably the greatest rabbi in Jewish history and perhaps the most influential of them all, regarded Qaraite Jews as genuinely Jewish. To see how the puerile and haughty "HaGroaner" didn't know that and was running his mouth childishly writing off Qaraite Jews as non-Jewish and generally heaping derision on then while taking Chazalic fairy tales as historical givens is most comical to behold.

Secondly, to make a blanket unsubstantiated statement without any evidence to bear that an entire movement of Jews are mamzerim because the Rabbinic halachot of divorce weren't in force among them is mighty Chutzpah, which brings me to the third point.

To exclude a certain group of Jews from issurim, e.g. Leshon Ha`Ra on the basis stated above is the height of audacity. It symbolizes the moral bankruptcy of vast portions of Rabbinic Halakha and goes a long way to help realize why the vast majority of the Jewish people think poorly of most Rabbinic literature.

May YHWH save and deliver us Jews from all that Rabbinic tripe and insanity.

[Zvi]

Shalom Lisa and may YHWH ask after your welbeing,

For one thing, how do you know the Mordechai of `Ezra/Nehemia is one and the same with Mordechai of Megillat Ester? There's no mention of the father's name for the one in `Ezra/Nehemia who made `aliyah in 538 BCE, whereas the Mordechai of Purim fame lived in the first half of the 5th century BCE (at the earliest) and is not alluded to as ever making `aliyah.

Secondly, the Mordechai of `Ezra/Nehemia is mentioned alongside Bilshan who is NOT identical to him. If you stand your ground, I'd love to hear you explain how exactly you substantiate through the plain straightforward meaning (Peshat) your assertion that "Mordechai Bilshan" is the same individual.

PS:
Now I see Groaner slamming Qaraite conversions as a sham. I know Rabbi `Ovadia Yosef -- perhaps the greatest Sefaradi Gadol of our generation who's directly connected to the Rambam's wellspring -- would disagree... AS IF Qaraite Jews needed Rabbinic validation of their conversions. I believe the characterization of one having his head up his ass fits Groaner the most.

Pinning attributes like intolerance, narrow-mindedness, mental illness, fanaticism etc, on the likes of Groaner is right on the money. Hopefully the number of Jews catching on to the ultra-Orthodox chicanery and making the proper conclusions from this realization will grow exponentially real soon and reach into the millions. In the meantime, Groaner and his cohorts couldn't get better outting themselves. They do a superb job betraying all that's rotten in the kingdon of Orthodoxy.

[Yohanan bin-Dawidh]

For those speaking about Hakham Avraham Qanai, being different than the practitioners of Karaite Judaism living on the west coast, such is merely a matter of tradition. The practitioners of Karaite Judaism living on the west coast are of Egyptian origins, whereas Hakham Avraham Qanai is not of Egyptian origins, though I do find the Biggie Smalls - Tupac Shakur reference is amusing.

There are three different levels of the way Karaites view traditions, and there is more than one community of Karaites, with differing traditions, and this is the case of Hakham Qanai and the KJA in California, they are merely different traditions.

If you can read Hebrew, and want to know more about Karaite Judaism, then visit either http://www.jkaraite.org or www.karaim.net.