Haredi MK: Don't Call It Swine Flu – Pigs Are Treife

Haredi Member of Knesset wants swine flu called "Mexico Flu.

"Making swine flu kosher: A symptom of the disease of Israeli politics

By Benjamin L. Hartman, Ha'aretz

On what must have been a slow day at the Knesset, the de facto head of the Health Ministry, MK Yakov Litzman, stated Monday that swine flu would be from here on in referred to as "Mexico Flu," as pork is non-kosher and considered unclean under Jewish law. 

While "Mexico Flu" sounds like something you'd contract during a long weekend in Nuevo Laredo, and which could be treated through a quick visit to a local free clinic, swine flu can kill, and if the early reports end up to be correct, it may have already made its way to Israel. 
 
Litzman was quick to point out that the authorities are on top of things and are prepared to handle any cases of swine flu, even though the authorities in question are currently being managed by a man who just tried to rename swine flu so that Jews in the State of Israel will not be forced to utter a reference to pork. 

While this may seem to be just the semi-weekly "Haredi government minister gone wild" comment that makes for great office banter, the truth is that it's just one more in a series of state-sanctioned declarations by a government official that serves only to further humiliate Israel in the eyes of the world. 

The blame ultimately lies at the feet of Benjamin Netanyahu and the glorious parliamentary democracy that makes Israel increasingly unstable and ungovernable. Israel is blessed by a voting system where if you don?t secure a majority, your only recourse is to cobble together a coalition with whichever fellow travelers and fringe parties will agree to sit with you, get the stamp of approval from the president, and then settle accounts with your coalition partners, now waiting in the shadows with a list of demands. While it has been established that Litzman did not want to be named deputy health minister (and with the lack of a superior, the acting head of the ministry), the fact is that under the demented Legoland makeup of Israel's governing system, ministerial seats are assured to those who broker the deals, no matter how horribly ill-suited they may be to the post. 

Such is the system that produces a government where a party representing a community whose media cannot print the word sex, airbrushes women out of photos, and binds them into a strict second-class status, can be put in charge of the Health Ministry, a ministry legally bound to protect the well-being of all Israelis, regardless of gender, race or religion. It also brings up the issue putting a man who can?t say the word "vagina" in charge of a ministry that supervises gynecological issues. How can a man whose usage of the Hebrew language is governed by his own interpretation of Jewish law deal with issues like teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, or post-natal care for women? 

Litzman's absurd first act in office is merely a glaring symptom of the disease of Israeli politics. This closed-door system of coalition building awards shameless men with no internal filter on their mouths, whose absurd statements are most suited to a street corner. By helping form a coalition, they're given control of crucial government ministries and therein a platform, a microphone, and a direct line from their convoluted logic to the press, who are more than happy to snap up a ridiculous statement from a public official. Unfortunately, the hilarity that ensues only brings fleeting relief from our collective humiliation. 

This attempted rebranding of swine flu raises another issue about the dangers of Israel's lack of separation of synagogue and state, albeit one less important or divisive than the monopoly held by the religious over marriage, death, circumcision, public transport, and dietary laws. This danger is the constant ability of the religious, when put in charge of government ministries, to make a mockery of a modern, would-be sophisticated western country that sees itself as a beacon of pluralism and modernity in a region darkened by religious fundamentalism and political extremism. 

It lessens our ability to see ourselves beholden to a political culture superior to that of our neighbors in the region, giving us more and more in common with those further to the east who banned kite flying, the playing of music, and whistling. On the other hand, that may be the upside of such humiliating comments as those of Litzman, they may actually serve to make us feel like we belong in the Middle East.

[Hat Tip: It's a bird, it's a plane, it's…]

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

Why don't we ignore chareidim, who want to pretend pigs don't exist.

[shmuel]

Can't wait to live under a cahredi theocracy in Israel. It'll be GREAT!

[annon]

It is chazer-treif!

[Ben]

Lintzman could have capitalized on the fact that this dangerous strain is Swine Flu and asked to ban swine meet in Israel. Instead he just changes the names. Is he plain stupid?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

OFFICIAL RULING FROM THE OFFICE OF THE CHIEF RABBI:

Whereas, swine are treif; and

Whereas, such treif swine are assur on the land of Israel to the extent they must be raised on wooden platforms; therefore

Be it resolved, victims of swine flu will be cremated so the swine bacteria shall not be mixed with the soil of Eretz Yisrael.

(If this makes sense to you, please consult a mental health professional).

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Thanks for making my religion look stupid.

[Michelle]

He is just making a distinction between "swine flew" (i.e. the Rabbis who fled when they were accused of molesting children), and "swine flu." Because we can't tell the difference between the two, we need to call the second one "Mexico flu."

[itchiemayer]

Forgive me for going off topic, but I feel compelled to do so. I recall awhile back, when I was new to this site, arguing that I had no problems with waterboarding and other interrogative methods not in line with the rules of the Geneva convention. A few of you were insistent that the Bush administration should be accused of war crimes, and you bandied about phrases like "rule of law", yada yada yada. Well, first of all, we now know that Pelosi and others knew about what was going on. Moreover, I have in front of me a transcript of an interview Paula Zahn did with current attorney general Eric Holder in 2002. In it, Holder states "It seems to me that given the way in which they (the Islamo fascist prisoners) have conducted themselves, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. So now my liberal friends, can we all agree any thoughts Obama has of prosecuting the attorneys upon who Bush relied on to go forward with these techniques of interrogation, should be dropped once and for all. Let us worry about defeating the enemy, not spend time, energy, and money trying to destroy our fellow Americans. I scoffed at the "rule of law" argument then, and I scoff at it now. The funny thing is that I was new to FM back then, so I really don't know who I was scoffing at, and I still don't. Ok, carry on.

[in the know]

what will litzman change the word chazir to, which appears in the torah several times. will he call it mexican animal who does not chew its cud?

[steve]

Litzman is the Gerrorist that has been protecting Mondrowitz for over twenty years. Rav Ovadya Yosef blasted Litzman the other day about his proposal to tax cigarettes instead of warning the public about the dangers of smoking.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Biggies (apologies to Beatles)

Have you seen the rabbinic biggies
dishing out the dirt
And for all the swine-flu piggies
Life is getting worse
Don't have holy dirt to play around in.

Have you seen the pedo piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Protect them as they flirt
Always have clean shirts to play around in.

In their pulpits with all their backing
They don't care what goes on around
In their eyes language is lacking
What they need's a voters' whacking.

Everywhere there's lots of piggies
Telling piggy lies
You can see them out for dinner
With their invisible wives
Clutching forks and knives to eat their Glatt Kosher.

[Elisha]

If you like Apikorsut and bucking the authorarian religious power establishment, check out the new "I Hate Rav Bina" Blog at http://ihateravbina.blogspot.com. He is the Rosh Yeshiva at a yeshiva in Old City of Jerusalem where I studied, and I could not have had a worse educational/spiritual experience largely due to him and his influence. I've got plenty of material, so check the blog regularly.

The purpose of the blog is 1) to act as a forum for people who had terrible religious experiences in the year in Israel between high school and college; and 2) to caution kids going to Israel about the dangers of oversubscribing to religious authority.

If you went to Hakotel/Netiv Aryeh and you have similar feelings, feel free to email me at elisha.moshe@gmail.com and I'd be happy to consider adding you as a co-blogger/guest blogger.

[Isa]

itchiemayer
It will not happen- any cooperation that he needs from the right will evaporate.
Obama is afraid of the 'gun lobby' Last time they implemented more 'gun control'the
Republicans were swept into power

[Rachel]

I'm aghast. Litzman left out the part about how the Charedim are immune to swine flu since they don't eat swine.

???

Oops, sorry, my bad. I get it now. The Charedim could still get swine flu, because while they don't eat swine, they allow swine to occupy positions of authority in their yeshivas.

So, by calling it "Mexican Flu," they render themselves immune, because they don't allow Mexicans to teach in their yeshivas.

I think I've got the logic now.

/sarcasm

[maven]

You think this is bad, you should have seen how folks reacted when they found out they were getting porcine insulin (even though it is totally ok halachically).

Elisha: R. Bina is notoriously hateful towards American Jewish students (hence they, of all the hesder yeshivot, created an American-only program), its a remnant of that old gush emunim sentiment, Americans being "galuti", etc, but he took Americans because he wanted the money, so its no surprise the program is a disaster (I've heard this from other recent students as well).

Here's one for you, Yochanan: This joke that used to circulate around Barnard and "womens college programs" back in the mad cow disease days, the joke is now entirely undone by current events:

Why aren't men concerned about mad cow disease?
Because men are pigs.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sung to the refrain to the "Mexican Hat Dance"

Oh, Reb Litzman is really retarded.
He's so dumb, I can hardly get started.
He has far too little to do.
So he bans the word "pig" for a Jew.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maven: Does your joke imply that women are cows?

[shmuel]

LOL!!

[Ben]

Elisha, I've checked your blog, and wanted to ask a question about Nativ, but your comment process is very convoluted and requires more info that I'm willing to disclose (such as my e-mail account password). At one point I even had a paranoid thought that you are working for Rav Bina, to collect info on all dissatisfied students and turn it to him.

You got to improve that part to have any guests on your blog. Good Luck.

[maven]

YL: They will lynch you in academia for that remark. So, just to save myself, I will borrow the famous Barnard joke punchline and go on record saying "that's not funny".
Note my link, I put it there just for you.

[MisterApikoros]

Maybe they can call it Schweinehund Flu, after the Haredi dogs in the Knesset and elsewhere.

Dogs aren't treif. Neither for that matter are p-gs, unless you eat one.

[Dr. Dave]

One for Maven:

Why is PMS called PMS?

Because the name Mad Cow Disease was already taken!!

[WoolSilkCotton]

Are footballs allowed? Can you play with a football?

What about baseballs? They're made with horsehide, aren't they?

[Dr. Dave]

Sure, I'll listen to chareidi morons about swine flu.

When pigs fly!!!

[Equal Tim e]

Flu is kosher?

[Equal Tim e]

--Are footballs allowed? Can you play with a football?--

A football is CALLED a piskin, but is actually made of cowhide. The original ones (100 years ago) were made with pig skin, and yes they would have been forbidden.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Mave.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Thanks for the info, Equal, and the excellent comments on the Bolivia thread.

[Rachel]

--Sure, I'll listen to chareidi morons about swine flu.

When pigs fly!!!--

LOL! I was going to give you s**t about your PMS joke, but when you went and made me laugh with this one, I couldn't find my outrage anywhere.

You men are swine. ;-)

[Yonah]

Steve - Did you mean to type "gerrorist"? Because that is an AWESOME word. Kind of a narrow application, though.

[yidandahalf]

http://www.vosizneias.com/30770/2009/04/27/new-york-ou-presents-%e2%80%9chow-to-check-for-insects%e2%80%9d/

Since "...eating a bug is much worse than eating ham..." why should these mouldy crows rush to rename what the rest of the world calls a flu bug?
I, myself, opened a box of matzoh earlier in the month and there it sat. I don't know why I keep up this charade any longer. I am at constant war with Jewish dybuks trying to drag me back into the fold. And for what? It is tormenting and counter-productive. I am swearing off all metaphysical crap once for all.
BTW, YL, I liked especially your Mexican Hat Dance.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yid & 1/2: gracias!

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

they have to correct yeshayahu hashamayim kiss-ee vehaaretz hadom ragay to read:

17 They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves to go unto the gardens, behind one in the midst, eating (swine's) mexican flesh, and the detestable thing, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

[Chicago Samson]

Nowhere in the Torah does it say that Swine is "treif" it is "ta'me" and that does not make it an evil creature.

In a semantic sense, the Haredim have made swine-ing out a fine delicacy, just look at the many stupid decrees they have invented, new issurim that not even Moses ever heard about, e.g., not sitting together on a bus (LOL) and other dumb and innovative rabbinical decrees that make the Israeli rabbinate look like a legion of Jewish Taliban idiots and fanatics.

To its credit, Christianity had a reformation movement to challenge the excesses of the Catholic Church, who is going to bring sanity to the Haredim? Will it be Chabad and the Rebbe Redux?

[Chicago Samson]

I bet the Iranians are nodding their heads at the Haredi, high-fiving it because they agree with the Haredim. But if I was one of the Taliban, I'd call Rabbi Litzman, "The Swine-Jew" and maybe he wouldn't be too far off the mark.

Here's a side note: When I was in China last summer, I learned the word "Jew" in Chinese means "swine." Pretty creepy, no?

[Chicago Samson]

Yochanan, right on!

[Chicago Samson]

I just thought of a new name:

MRD = Mad Rabbi's Disease!! named after Rabbi Litzman and his Haredi/Chabad buddies.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

Here's a side note: When I was in China last summer, I learned the word "Jew" in Chinese means "swine." Pretty creepy, no?

Chicago,
can u please transliterate which word in chinese is what?
thanks

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

Chicago,
this is part of an entry taken from wikipedia on the subject of chinese jews
"Although Jews in modern China have traditionally called themselves Youtai (犹太, from Judah) in Mandarin Chinese — also the predominant contemporary Chinese language term for Jews in general — the community was known by their Han Chinese neighbors as adherents of Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教), meaning, loosely, the religion which removes the sinew (a reference to kashrut)."
sometimes, we could be looking for attitudes in others that cause us to be "outraged" it gets our adrenalin flowing.

[The sane one]

Why is this so surprising? The crazies in the Jewish faith are trying to push their views on the entire world. It will most likely come to accusations of anti-semitism if they don't get their way. If something as horrible starts in their neck of the woods, then they can name it. Wow, is this subject pathetic or what?

[Chicago Samson]

I am well familiar with the Chinese definition, and I am even a member of the Sino-Judaic Institute. Chinese is a very tonal language, and depending upon the tonality of a given word, that tone will dictate its contextual meaning in any given situation despite the fact it may be spelled with the same exact consonants (it's a little bit like Abraham Alufia's theory or Hebrew vowels, "the letters of a word are like the body, while the vowels function more like its soul").

But please do not take my word for it; next time you go to a Sushi bar or a Chinese vegetarian restaurant, make it a point to ask the Sushi master, "What does 'Jew' mean in Chinese?"

BTW, the Chinese people as a whole think that Jews are very intelligent; but some Chinese also use "Jew" as a verb to describe someone like Berny Madoff or anyone who "steals" by trying to take advantage of others.

[Chicago Samson]

"Pig [猪] in cantonese "ju" sounds the same as [宫纱珠] "kong sa ju", the chinese legendary sign of virginity. The [宫纱珠] "kong sa ju", a red dot placed on ..."

http://www.chinese-wedding-guide.com/roast-pig.html

[yidandahalf]

With all due respect, these words sound alike to Westerners, they do not sound alike at all to Chinese and therefore, with or without characters to distinguish them, are very easy to "tell" apart. The word for pig sounds as if has the equivalent of an 'umlaut' over it. As for the word for Jew, that would best be transliterated Jiu ( sort of a shortened gee- yuu). I have no Mandarin, only Cantonese, so I will give you the tones for them ( Cantonese has eight tones; two more, I believe, than Mandarin ). The word for pig is high level, and the word for Jew is probably low level.
As for transliteration, it can and should be a personal thing when used for private use as a person can use their own system and benefit from it better than using the government's ( China ) Pinyin system, which of course is useful really for Mandarin. If you speak Cantonese, then the old Wade-Giles system is better. But developing one's own system and combining it with a 'popular' one is very good and functional.
Just saying and apologies for going on so long.

[yidandahalf]

I should clear up the low and high level thing. The 'level' bit simply means just that - a level tone, no rising or falling. The high and low bit means a high pitch ( is pitch the correct word? I do not know, but it seems so to me. ) or a low toned pitch independent of the 'level'. So this is to say both words are level but one is high sounding and one is low. VERY OT, sorry. But there is no sense in making a half-assed post.

[gershomatl]

A pig by any other name still tastes like bacon.

[Chicago Samson]

Yidan,

I really appreciate the correction. When I posted my original note, or had you heard my "tonal" expression, you would have known I was only "juking."

However, as we all know, the lack of tonality in email is one reason why it is a very inefficient way to communicate, since it only reflects a "trace" of the Other person's humanity ( to borrow an expression from Levinas)...

Now, since this is a silly topic, I thought it would be funny to interject with this ironic linguistic observation, but knowledge more often than not comes with a price and--in this case--a little bit of embarrassment.

What surprised me more than anything was the fact that the European verb of "Jewing" seems to have found its way into the Chinese lexicon. The Berny Madoffs and the Rubashkins of the world do not help us to rid these negative connotations.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chi Sam, you are one amazing dude.

[maven]

As a Mandarin speaker, I can attest that the word for Jew does not ring up "pig" in Chinese. However, the verb "jew" in English as a term for cheating someone came particularly to XiangGang (HK) from the English, and it appears in the Oxford English Chinese dictionary as such (though not translated as youtai).

[Yochanan Lavie]

MRD = Mad Rabbi's Disease!! named after Rabbi Litzman and his Haredi/Chabad buddies.

Posted by: Chicago Samson | April 27, 2009 at 11:33 PM

Pronounced "merde" as in French.

[Rachel]

Yoch, it never fails to amaze me the way you see puns everywhere. It takes me an hour to come up with one, and then I have to mix some Xanax into a pear martini and take a nap.

[A E ANDERSON, Sydney, NSW, Australia]

I'm not sure what bothers me worse.... the idiocy and 'am haratsus of MK Litzman, or the faultiness of his own internal, haredi logic circuits.

Pork is only asur ba-achilah, not be-hanah. Thus one can wear pig-suede shoes or even utter divine names in prayer whilst sitting on a synagogue pew upholstered in pigskin. One can even eat the the beasties in situations of pikuach nefesh (It would generally be a transgression not to eat pork in such a circumstance, even for the most farfrumpte Ultra-Ortho).

And generally, prohibited foods are only tainted in a combination or mixture when the prohibited item contributes a desirable flavour. How MK Litzman can possibly consider a virus to be anything but analogous to notayn taam lefgamn amazes.

But here, both "swine" and "virus" are held to be bad, evil, undesirable. For the MK and his ilk, "swine" should thus be an entirely appropriate appellation for the potentially fatal porcine virus.

[Chicago Samson]

++Pronounced "merde" as in French++

I thought of that as well, but I wanted to keep the topic "clean" from obscenities--especially when mentioning the French!

[Chicago Samson]

++ Chi Sam, you are one amazing dude++

Wooly,

Not so amazing, but I seem to have a penchant for punning; you see, I took the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein very seriously when he wrote that "language is a game."

Well, aren't games supposed to be fun and evoke laughter?

[alternative childcare]

Hey, Rachel, can I have the recipe for your Xanatini?

ChiSam, I hope you are kidding with that quote from Wittgenstein, as that is totally not what he meant.

[Chicago Samson]

Oh, I was only kidding, although Wittgenstein did have a biting sense of humor, according to his biographer. I enjoy adding a new spin to old philosophical ideas.

However, if you really want to read someone who finds puns fascinating, just read Freud's short study on humor, which was one of his most brilliant but underrated works. The French philosopher Jacques Derrida as well as the French psychologist Jacques Lacan, or if you enjoy watching television, just check out Herman Punster, of the "Punsters."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Rachel: Thanks.

These guys are becoming like the Muslim extemists, who don't even like to mention pork exists.

CS: As Monty Python sang:
Rene Descartes is a drunken fart
I drink therefore I am.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Philosopher's Song (Monty Python)

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya'
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
SOCRATES, HIMSELF, WAS PERMANENTLY PISSED...

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away;
Half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: "I drink, therefore I am"
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed!

[Chicago Samson]

I wonder whether Rabbi Litzman would have a pig valve placed in his heart, if he ever needed one.

It's very funny, because pigs and humans seem to have a profound genetic relationship; modern medical technology has been using pigskin for human skin on victims for many years. In fact, next to the chimp and certain types of mice (the rhesus macaques), the pig may be our next closest genetic cousin.

Human skin and pig skin is so similar that pig skin is used for skin grafts on human burn victims. until their own skin can heal. Portions of a pig’s eye have been used for human eye transplants. Even the valves in a pig’s heart have been used to save human lives (my old Rabbi emeritus used to joke about his special pig valve that kept him alive for many years and Rav Moshe permits it in his responsa).

Furthermore, the pig is the only mammal that will voluntarily drink alcohol and for that reason is often studied by scientists who wish to better understand the effects of human alcoholism.

Humans and pigs are the only species affected adversely by the web-like evolution of influenza strains. Interestingly, pigs are being modified with human genes so that the organs of their offspring can be transplanted into humans to hopefully better combat certain types of diseases.

Maven could obviously add a lot more detail to this discussion than I can, but the relationship between pigs and humans is very interesting from a zoological and anthropological perspective.

The bottom line: rabbis should refrain from making disparaging remarks on their genetic cousins! We have more in common with the pig than most of us ever imagined possible.

* See "Pigs and Humans: 10,000 Years of Interaction" by Umberto Albarella, Keith Dobney, Anton Ervynck, Peter Rowley-Conwy (New York: Oxford UP, 2008).

[Chicago Samson]

Bravo Yochanan, I think we ought to blame Rabbi Litzman's behavior on "Mad Rabbi's Disease" (MeRD).

[Rachel]

Chicago Samson, the next time you want to oh-so-casually mention Derrida or Lacan on this blog, DON'T. I mean it. I'm not eff-ing kidding.

Back when I was a young, innocent graduate student, I was forced to read their "work" (or was it play? heh) and it took me YEARS to recover from those two. Years. As in multiples of 365 days. As in, life has meaning, goddammit, and these two are trying to erase all memory of it from human civilization. As in, great intellect is not measured by how efficiently you can torture other human beings by making them read your prose.

Are my sliding signifiers clear?

[shneerhere]

....and when Mashiach comes, the pig will be rendered kosher and fit.

So many battles... I don't understand how being afraid to use the word 'swine' furthers Jewish education, Jewish 'continuity' (buzzword) or yiddishkeit in general. Have we really become this backwards? I almost don't recognize "modern" orthodoxy compared to 25 years ago, let alone the Haredi version.

We better stick to learning, acts of kind deeds and the basics like Shabbat, Chagim, kashrut that is user-friendly (like there's no microscopic bugs in grain, only broccoli??) and stop this thought-police suppression going on.

One day soon we'll be too busy just surviving to have the luxury of deciding whether or not to utter 'swine'. And the pity is, all of this avoidable. (sigh)

[R]

ha ha ha. Sheer comedy.
If it's a sin to contract swine flu maybe everyone should sit at home all day and not go out until it dies down.
Also if it makes it ok to re-name it mexican flu, then if i rename a pig mexican animal, does that make it suddenly kosher?

I would also like to point out the flu originated from a pig, so it truly is a non kosher virus.

[Chicago Samson]

Relax Rachel, are you always so excitable even in cyberspace?

Derrida is never easy reading, sometimes he comes across like a man who has taken LSD and sounds like a lunatic; he's really more of a modern-day sophist, who like his Greek predecessors, loves arguing just for the sake of arguing--or so it seems. However, many of his latter books are really quite interesting, especially his meditation on death and the Akedah, or his thoughts on the via negativa ("Negative Theology"), which I think even Maimonides might have considered endorsing.

Lacan? Well, I enjoy reading him because he at least pokes fun at himself, and many of his ideas--well, sorry to disappoint you--are in harmony with some of my own views regarding psychology.

So, take the best, reject the rest! Or if you like, reject postmodern thought altogether; I happen to enjoy postmodern thought but that's because I personally enjoy ambiguity. Trying to figure out "Who is a Postmodernist" is almost as complex as trying to figure out "Who is a Jew."

[Chicago Samson]

So, take the best, reject the rest! Or if you like, reject postmodern thought altogether; I happen to enjoy postmodern thought but that's because I personally enjoy ambiguity. Trying to figure out "Who is a Postmodernist?" is almost as complex as trying to figure out "Who is a Jew?"

[Rachel]

--Relax Rachel, are you always so excitable even in cyberspace? --

You know, CS, I thought you were a mensch until you let fly with this one. I don't care whether it's said in cyberspace or in person, whether in fun or in seriousness, but you don't say something like this to a woman, especially in a group composed mainly of men--unless, of course, you want to anger, embarrass, and/or dismiss the woman.

I don't care what the topic is, or what's been said. You just don't.

[WoolSilkCotton]

It's almost 5:00 here on the East Coast, so I'm just going to mix a pitcher full of one-third pear cocktail mix, two-thirds vodka, slice a few pear wedges, and get the martini glasses ready for everyone.

[WoolSilkCotton]

And I'll drop a few Xanax tablets into the pitcher.

[steve]

Litzman is taking it too personally. Who said that they had him in mind?

[Chicago Samson]

My apology goes to you, Rachel (really!)but at the same token, toning down the intensity of one's rhetoric, and telling someone to essentially shut up in cyberspace, well, that's not being very polite either. Consider the following remark:

++ Chicago Samson, the next time you want to oh-so-casually mention Derrida or Lacan on this blog, DON'T. I mean it. I'm not eff-ing kidding.

Back when I was a young, innocent graduate student, I was forced to read their "work" (or was it play? heh) and it took me YEARS to recover from those two. Years. As in multiples of 365 days. As in, life has meaning, goddammit, and these two are trying to erase all memory of it from human civilization. As in, great intellect is not measured by how efficiently you can torture other human beings by making them read your prose.

Are my sliding signifiers clear?++

In a free forum, nobody has the right to tell another what to say on a given discussion of his/her choice.

That being said, sexism is what we men are born with, until our female mentors deprogram us of this culturally inherited disease.

BTW, many thanks for the lesson. Ergo, I will take responsibility for what I said to offend you, the rest is really up to you.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chi Sam, take a martini glass from me here, and let me pour you the first drink. And let me put a slice of pear on the rim for extra flavor.

[Audrey the Liberal]

Martinis should never contain anything but gin, vermouth, a little olive brine if you want it dirty, and said olive. I myself am partial to (dirty) Gibsons.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If drinking a vodka pear-tini is a crime, then I am guilty as charged.

My true drink of choice is the gimlet.

I do love the cocktail onion of the Gibson; more people ought to try it.

[maven]

Audrey:

I suspect there's no need for purism here, most of these drinks are clearly meant to be poured over people's heads rather than drunk.

Though I'm not sure if adding medication to a drink (ie, the xanatini) really counts as a martini violation (though adding certain drugs to drinks may be a criminal violation).

[Chicago Samson]

All these glasses of booze ( and the only alcoholic beverage I drink is White Infidel), reminds me of the verse, "My cup runneth over ..." (Psa. 23:5).

Really, it takes a lot to get me upset. Rachel is a delightful lady, and I really loved her piece on God so much, I distributed it to my Sunday School class before the Yom HaShoah service because I thought her message was so spiritually profound.

Sometimes, we as men can act like bulls in a china shop. Whether someone hits you with a 2 x4 wooden beam on the head by accident, or on purpose--it's still going to hurt like hell, and one always has to take responsibility for making others feel "hurtred" (my own neologism) whether by accident, and kal va homer if it is intentional.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chicago Samson, allow me to refill your glass!

[Yoel B]

News reports indicate that pork consumption in many countries is going down due to the swine flu outbreak even though

•it's no longer a simple porcine virus but has mutated and combined with at least 3 others
•you can't get the flu from eating pork.

So, maybe Litzman really wants to not associate pigs with something bad so pork consumption will go back up?

[Chicago Samson]

Many thanks Wooly, I also like Kahlua and vanilla ice cream -- Yum!

[A. Nuran]

CS, there are some similarities between pigs and humans, many of them due to the fact that we're both omnivores. But they aren't "profound genetic" ones. Pigs are much more closely related to everything from cows to llamas than they are to us. We are much more closely related to monkeys and apes.

Also, pigs are not the only animals which drink alcohol in the wild. Birds go after fermented fruit. So do elephants. But elephants in India have taken it a step further and actually break into remote Army installations to steal the booze!

[Chicago Samson]

Sorry A. Nuran, the science does not seem to fully support your argument (e.g., pig valves, and the other data I gave in the above posting). There is an ample scientific literature that supports this premise, and I would be more than happy to give you a partial scientific bibliography with the appropriate page numbers, aside from the other book I did post on Pigs and Humans: 10,000 Years of History. The studies on alcoholism in pigs is also fairly well documented, sources will be provided upon request.

If you are interested, you may want to read "Advances in Swine in Biomedical Research: Proceedings of an International ...‎ (Introduction) by Mike E. Tumbleson, Lawrence B. Schook - Nature - 1996.

Have fun, it's time to let go of our human hubris that we are so much physically different from the animal world.

For the record, I never said that pigs are closer to us than primates, but I would argue they are closer to us than cows or llamas, and in addition, may seem more like Haredi rabbis than they would care to think--that's a joke son!

[Yoel B]

Actually he's a big defender of Israel. For centuries anti-semites have been attacking Jews, beating and killing us because "they think they're smarter than us."
Well, thanks to Rabbi Litzman, they can't do that any more.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Whenever I have other things to do, the children don't play nice...

I like some postmodern thought, and some of it is BS. I always read critically, or try to. I think Wittgenstein is really the man- he's playful and skeptical like Derrida but not as opaque. He is proud of his Jewish ancestry. Levinas, too, incorporates the best of postmodernism. Lacan's mirror stage theory is brilliant, but otherwise he's too opaque. And I have come full circle and no longer dismiss Jung like I did when I was a grad student.

If something stresses you out, by all means flee- life is too short. But if not, take the plunge.

[Chicago Samson]

Father Yochanan, we have sinned ....

Don't forget Nietzsche and Sartre. Both of these thinkers provide a greater service to the purification of religion from its meshugas, then either man would ever know. We would be wise to learn from their critiques of religion, and improve upon our faith so that it is completely liberated from the childish and foolish notions we have held about the Divine, since the beginning ....

"Sometimes," as the Gemorah says, "prophecy is given to women, children, and lunatics" (Bava Bathra --I will look up the exact place on Wed.). I suspect Nietzsche was the type of person the Talmud was alluding to; in his tragic vision of humankind, he had a glimpse of the future world we now live in, and this vision drove him mad.

[dr. dave]

Fourth Bruce: Goodday, Bruce, Hello Bruce, how are you, Bruce? Gentlemen, I'd like to introduce a chap from pommie land... who'll be joining us this year here in the Philosophy Department of the University of Woolamaloo.

All: Goodday.

Fourth Bruce: Yochanan Lavie - this is Bruce. Yochanan Lavie - this is Bruce. Yochanan Lavie - this is Bruce.

First Bruce: Is your name not Bruce, then?

YL: No, it's Yochanan.

Second Bruce: That's going to cause a little confusion.

Third Bruce: Mind if we call you 'Bruce' to keep it clear?

Fourth Bruce: Well, Gentlemen, I think we'd better start the meeting. Before we start, though, I'll ask the rabbi for a prayer.

First Bruce: snaps a borsalino on his head. They all lower their heads.

First Bruce: Oh Lord, we beseech thee, have mercy on our faculty, Amen!!

All: Amen!

Fourth Bruce: Crack the tubes, right! (Third Bruce starts opening beer cans) Er, Bruce, I now call upon you to welcome Mr. Lavie to the Philosophy Department.

Second Bruce: I'd like to welcome the pommy bastard to God's own earth, and I'd like to remind him that we don't like stuck-up sticky-beaks here

Fourth Bruce: Any questions?

Second Bruce: New Bruce - are you a lubab?

Fourth Bruce: Are you a lubab?

YL: No!

Fourth Bruce No right, well gentlemen, I'll just remind you of the faculty rules: Rule one - no lubabs. Rule two, no member of the faculty is to maltreat the Satmers in any way whatsoever - if there's anybody watching. Rule three - no lubabs. Rule four - I don't want to catch anyone not drinking in their room after lights out. Rule five - no lubabs. Rule six - there is no rule six! Rule seven - lubabs. That concludes the reading of the rules, Bruce.

[MisterApikoros]

Actually, this flu shouldn't be called "swine flu" because there's no evidence so far that the illness is caused by pigs.

The name "swine flu" is hurting the pork industry. You cannot get swine flu from a pork chop, or a ham sandwich.

Nor will you go to hell after you die of something else.

[Chicago Samson]

Frank-ly speaking, this "Swine-Flu" disease is a lot of Hazir-rye!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, D.D. If they were Lubavs, the philosophers would be opening cans of Mountain Dew.

[A. Nuran]

I'm sorry CS, but you're still dead wrong.

You're confusing anatomical similarities and genetic ones.

Heart valves, digestive tract and so on are anatomical similarities. Pigs and people have a few. They are not genetic similarities which are down at the chromosomal level. When you're talking base-pairs and similar we are firmly with the apes. Pigs are with the other even-toed hoofed mammals.

That's the simple fact, and there really isn't any contrary evidence.

[Chicago Samson]

I spoke with my congregant, who is a cultural anthropologist to ask him about some of the issues you raise, and he informed me that in terms of convergent evolution — mammal genomes are not different from human genomes in a general sense; but we are 40% similar to almost any type of single cell organism. Pigs and llamas, hippos, giraffes, and whales (ancestral whales resembled aquatic wolves and could run!), are part artiotactylis (even-toed ungulates).

This would confirm what you have said; yes, there are many interesting anatomical similarities as a model, and scientists love models.

I have no problem with that, kudos for your clarification.

Still, from what I have read in the science of genetics and swine, for whatever the scientific reason may be, humans seem to have a remarkable genetic affinity to a pattern of diseases, e.g., influenzas, that link humans and swine together. The other texts I have come across also make comparisons, but I am not a scientist, just a rabbi with an almost insatiable curiosity for knowledge.

If I had to guess, humans probably became prone to these viruses as a result of eating unhealthy pork products (OckHAM's Razor -- I had to squeal in a pun!), but as my friend said, there are bound to be similarities with virtually all mammals in one way or another.

* Joseph A. Cotruvo, World Health Organization, A. Dufour, G. Rees, "Waterborne zoonoses: identification, causes, and control" (New York: IWA Publishing, 2004), pp. 248-249.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If you don't believe that humans are very similar genetically to swine, hippos, and whales, then you ought to meet my ex-inlaws!

You've been a great audience! Drive safely!

[Equal Tim e]

--....and when Mashiach comes, the pig will be rendered kosher and fit. --

So why don't the Lubavich eat bacon? Lack of faith?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Equal-- if Rubashkin put their label on it, Lubavitchers would feast on it.

[Chicago Samson]

++So why don't the Lubavich eat bacon? Lack of faith?++

Maybe because pigs don't cannibalize one another.

[A. Nuran]

CS, if you haven't read it pick up a copy of Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel. He makes an fascinating case that among other things, the domestication of animals gave certain cultures serious advantages over others. Partly it was having ready access to meat and non-human muscle power.

A big factor was disease. Measles is the human version of Rinderpest, a disease of cows. Ducks and pigs provided reservoirs of a number of diseases including influenza and a couple others which escape me at the moment. That's why so many flus come out of China or Hong Kong. They keep lots of ducks and pigs. Animal-keeping peoples not only had a lot of cross-immunities, they carried the diseases with them and decimated the people they came in contact with. The Americas were conquered less by the sword than by the microbe.

Relevance to the discussion? Very little. But it's still a wonderful educational read along with his other popular books Collapse, The Third Chimpanzee and Why is Sex Fun?.

[Moshe]

Oh no, it's not just the Charedim who are crazy, it's spreading like, wel... check this out from AP: "Pork producers are trying to get people to stop calling the disease swine flu, and Obama notably referred to it Wednesday only by its scientific name, H1N1. U.N. animal health expert Juan Lubroth noted some scientists say "Mexican flu" would be more accurate, a suggestion already inflaming passions in Mexico."

[Chicago Samson]

++CS, if you haven't read it pick up a copy of Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel. He makes an fascinating case that among other things, the domestication of animals gave certain cultures serious advantages over others. Partly it was having ready access to meat and non-human muscle power.++

Yes, I was aware of the book when it first came out, and I even listened to the radio interview; it's a book I've been waiting to read--especially since I enjoy studying books on the history of famous wars and their impact on history. I think I will check it out at B&N or Amazon ....

[Chicago Samson]

A, Nuran, what kind of work do you do?

[Chicago Samson]

++The Americas were conquered less by the sword than by the microbe.++

Selling the Indians small-pox infested blankets was one of the first modern instances involving germ warfare.

[A. Nuran]

CS, I'm a computer systems engineer and defrocked economics grad student.

The smallpox-infested blankets were the least of it. The Aztec Empire was beginning to get a handle on how to fight the Conquistadores. Then whole villages started falling to measles (Rinderpest), smallpox (Cowpox) and "fevers" (who the hell knows?). The Spaniards weren't intentionally spreading them. The microbes just came along for the ride. Estimates of the dead in North America range up to about half the indigenous population.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I liked GGS and Collapse, but why does someone have to write a book on why sex is fun? ;)

"Before the Dawn" by Nicholas Wade is also a fascinating look at paleoanthropology. I highly recommend it.

[maven]

This just in: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/30/swine-flu-gets-new-name-b_n_193772.html

So I guess he gets the last laugh after all.