R. Ovadia Yosef: Women Can Read Megillah For Men

Ruling called groundbreaking.

Rabbi Ovadia rules women may chant Scroll of Esther for men
By Yair Ettinger, Ha'aretz

Women are allowed to chant the Scroll of Esther on behalf of men if no competent men are available, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the spiritual leader of Israel's Sephardi community, ruled last week in a landmark decision liable to outrage many of his Ashkenazi counterparts.

Esther is traditionally read in synagogue on the holiday of Purim, which this year falls next week. And while some rabbis have long permitted women to read the megillah, or scroll, for other women, most do not allow women to read on behalf of men.

In his weekly Torah class on Saturday night, however, Yosef discussed the rules of reading the megillah and ruled that not only may women read it in front of men, but the men will thereby have fulfilled their obligation to hear the scroll read.

"It is permissible for a woman to fulfill this obligation on behalf of men," he said, because the obligation to hear the megillah falls equally on men and women.

Yosef said that most rabbis forbid women to read the megillah on the grounds that men are forbidden to listen to women sing, because a woman's singing voice can stimulate sexual arousal. However, he said, he does not agree that a woman chanting a sacred text is the kind of singing that stimulates sexual arousal. The analogy rabbis have drawn between singing and chanting sacred texts has "no value," he declared.

Yosef said women should not read for men if there are men capable of doing the reading. But in a "small community" where there are no men capable of chanting the text properly, it is permissible to bring a woman to read, he ruled.

Yosef also said that women could write a kosher Scroll of Esther - another task that most rabbis say can be done only by men. He said that ancient megillahs written by women have been found in Yemen, and it would be permissible for women to do so today as well, "to earn a living for their household," since women "were part of the miracle" that the megillah describes.

However, he admitted wryly, it is an open question "whether anyone would buy it."

In both cases, Yosef's rulings were specific to Megillat Esther and do not necessarily apply to other sacred texts, such as the Torah.

Comments

[Isaac Balbin]

Practically speaking though, it would be most rare to find a kehilla that hasn't been intentionally deconstructed in a way that would not include a male who could read the Megilla.

If the motivation of any female, however, in any case, is to "further women's rights" then I would argue that a man is not Yotzei such a reading.

[ah-pee-chorus]

does this mean men will be permitted to cook and do laundry?

[ah-pee-chorus]

it didn't take long for someone to find a way to negate this ruling, did it? isaac balbin? we are lucky to have people like you who will stand up to defend their "women as second class citizens" halacha. never you mind what the real halacha is.

[ah-pee-chorus]

if a man reads it how do we know he isn't doing it to preserve men's rights in which case i would argue that nobody is yotzei. i think we shall require only non-humans to read so we can be sure of their motives.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Fat chance that any orthodox synagogue will allow a woman to read the Megillah for the men.

However, women are permitted to set up the food for the Purim celebration afterward, and they are permitted to clean up later that night, as well as prepare the shallach monos baskets for all the neighbors and friends, and the seudah for Purim afternoon.

Of course, when in doubt, blame the women for not being dressed modestly enough.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

"If the motivation of any female, however, in any case, is to "further women's rights" then I would argue that a man is not Yotzei such a reading."?!

Heh, heh, who spoke of motivation?
the venerable rabbi is saying that if men can't and a woman can, then the woman should read.
I say if the men are morons who distort halakha and are always on the outlook for other's intentions, then even pets reading megila, are preferable to them.

[ah-pee-chorus]

wsc:
now you're making orthodoxy sound sexist.

[steve]

This is not groundbreaking. It is clear cut halacha. The same law applies to kiddush on Shabbos.

[ah-pee-chorus]

steve, you are correct. but what is unusual is for a rabbi to actually permit something (which is halachically acceptable) which furthers in any way a woman's role in judaism.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Orthodoxy has always granted women the right to remain silent.

[Yoel]

This isn't appropriate using the forum to make fun of Halachah. If one doesn't believe that the halachic process reveals the divine will, then you might as well just go play golf. Everything will then be up for grabs to make fun of, and such satire takes no intelligence at all. The key point is that if somone is obligated to do something, they *must* do it even if their motivations are less than ideal. However, if one wishes to get closer to Hashem by a voluntary act, then it works only if the motivations are impeccable. You know why? It is just common sense! Also, this show both the strengths and weaknesses of things that are obligations, and things that are voluntary, and shows the needs and role for both those kinds of service.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Rav Ovadia must be getting senile. On the other hand, they do smoke a lot of hashish on his block in Har Nof. I would too, if I had to wear one of those Sephardische Chief Rabbi outfits, as opposed to my costumery black.

[Yonah]

WoolSilkCotton - I was asked to chant the megillah in an Orthodox shul, so...

[ah-pee-chorus]

"This isn't appropriate using the forum to make fun of Halachah. If one doesn't believe that the halachic process reveals the divine will, then you might as well just go play golf. Everything will then be up for grabs to make fun of"

Posted by: Yoel | March 01, 2009 at 09:31 PM

i've been nailed by the "appropriate forum"
police.

i believe that even if one were to accept that the torah is divine, its pretty clear that the implementation of the halachic process has been anything but divine. the process involves men subjugating women further and further down, while telling them that their second class citizenry is a special blessing. that doesnt require any intelligence, it requires sexism and fear. they piss on womens heads and tell them its raining.
and you can't play golf all the time.

[ah-pee-chorus]

yonah: please post the name of the shul so the real jews here can mock it and label it heretical conservative. they'll feel better.

[hancock park]

Rav Yosef is talking about a theoretical situation that will rarely exist. Maybe if your stuck in Butte, Montana on Purim and no one there but a woman can read Megillas Esther properly from the scroll, this will happen. Another situation might be a hospital or home visit to an elderly or sick person, when they can't get a man to go and read it. Rav Yosef is correct and should be given credit to have the guts to publicly announce his decision. Lets see if he however retracts this opinion when the heat starts to happen.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

Off. of the Ch. Rab. sez (ootcr)
Rav Ovadia must be getting senile.
And i say, that gives him (ootcr) up as a min sefardi hating chabadnik.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

This is not groundbreaking. It is clear cut halacha.
Correct - this is one of the building blocks used by JTS rabbis to make the case for reading from other texts as well.
The same law applies to kiddush on Shabbos.
Yes, and it's remarkable the bobbing and weaving done by some to justify a husband that has heard qiddush in shul coming home and making qiddush for his wife.

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

"Yes, and it's remarkable the bobbing and weaving done by some to justify a husband that has heard qiddush in shul coming home and making qiddush for his wife"

actually, while generally speaking i understand what you are saying, i think that there is halakha of "ein qiddush ela bimqom haseuda". the qiddush in shul does not motzi yedei chova, in fact sefardis, don't do qiddush in shul. i often wonder if the qiddush in shul is not a concession to those same tardy guys for whom the braxchos me-eyn sheva were instituted?!

[Yosef ben Matityahu]

"Yes, and it's remarkable the bobbing and weaving done by some to justify a husband that has heard qiddush in shul coming home and making qiddush for his wife" Part II

Neo-Con, this is from R' O Yosef Halakha Yomit. The Halakha itself is from the Shulchan Arukh
אין קידוש אלא במקום סעודה
בהלכות הקודמות ביארנו את עיקר מצות הקידוש ביום השבת. וכעת נבא לבאר תנאי שקיים במצות הקידוש, שאין קידוש אלא במקום סעודה. כלומר, מי ששמע קידוש מאחר, ולא טעם דבר במקום שבו שמע את הקידוש, לא יצא ידי חובת קידוש, לפי שאין מצות קידוש, אלא במקום סעודה, כמו שדרשו רבותינו, ממה שנאמר "וקראת לשבת עונג", שקריאת השבת (שהיא הקידוש) תהיה במקום עונג (הסעודה), לפיכך אם קידש על היין ולא סעד, לא יצא גם ידי חובת קידוש, ואם ירצה אחר כך לאכול, צריך לקדש שוב על היין. ולכן מי ששמע קידוש בבית הכנסת או בבית חבירו, ולא אכל שם, ואחר כך הולך לביתו חייב לקדש שוב על היין ואחר כך יאכל מה שירצה.
so the qiddush at home, is not a condescending act towards the wife.

והנה מה שאמרו שחייב לסעוד במקום שעושה שם קידוש, אין הכוונה בזה שיעשה סעודה ממש עם פת לחם, אלא די במה שיאכל פת כסנין, כלומר עוגות או עוגיות כשיעור כזית, שיוכל לברך עליהם אחר כך ברכה אחרונה, שגם זה נחשב לסעודה לענין זה. וכן אם שותה רביעית יין, שיוכל אחר כך לברך ברכת מעין שלוש על היין או על מיץ הענבים, גם כן נחשב לו לסעודה, ויוצא ידי חובת קידוש בזה. (שיעור כזית הוא עד כשלשים גרם, ורביעית יין עד כתשעים מ"ל לכל היותר).

וביארנו בעבר, שמי שנמצא בבית הכנסת שעושים שם קידוש אחר הסעודה לרגל איזו שמחה שיש שם, אסור לו לטעום מהמאכלים שנמצאים שם, אם אינו אוכל שם עוגות ממש, כי פירות וירקות או שתיה וכיוצא בזה, אינם נחשבים לסעודה לענין זה.

אולם כעת נדפס ספר חזון עובדיה על עניני שבת (ח"א), ושם האריך בזה מרן הרב שליט"א, וכתב שהמיקלים בזה לאכול ממיני המתיקה המוגשים לפניהם בקידוש שעושים אחר התפילה, יש להם על מה שיסמוכו, כי יש סוברים שאין בזה איסור, מפני שלדעת כמה מהראשונים אין איסור באכילה קודם שמיעת קידוש, אלא בקידוש שבליל שבת, אבל בקידוש של יום השבת בבוקר, אין בזה איסור, ואף על פי שאין הלכה כדבריהם, מכל מקום יש לצרף לזה את שיטת הפוסקים האומרים שמכיון שהמקדש טועם מן היין כשיעור, ממילא כשם שהכל יוצאים בברכת הגפן שלו, כמו כן יוצאים בחיוב סעודה על ידו. לכן למעשה, הרוצה לטעום ממה שמגישים בקידושים כגון אלו, יש לו על מה שיסמוך, אולם הצנועים שיש יראת ה' בלבם, מושכים ידיהם מזה, ואינם אוכלים עד שיבואו לביתם לקדש במקום סעודה כדת וכדין. וטוב לכתחילה להודיע למי שעורך קידוש בבית הכנסת, שידאג שיהיה לכל אחד מהאורחים, עוגה או מיץ ענבים כשיעור, בכדי שיוכלו לאכול שם במקום שעשו קידוש.

ולסיכום: אין קידוש אלא במקום סעודה, לפיכך מי ששמע קידוש ולא אכל במקום שבו שמע את הקידוש, לא יצא ידי חובת הקידוש, וכשיבא לביתו צריך לקדש שוב ולאכול במקום שקידש. וסעודה לענין זה נחשבת כל אכילה של עוגות או עוגיות בשיעור כזית, או שתית יין בשיעור רביעית. ובמקום שעושים קידוש ואין שם ממה לאכול עוגות או לשתות יין, המיקלים לטעום שם ממיני המתיקה המוגשים להם, יש להם על מה שיסמוכו, אבל הצנועים מוכים ידיהם מזה, ואינם אוכלים עד שיבאו לביתם יוקדשו ויאכלו כדת.

[KosherKeeper]

Steve: Yes kiddush on Shabbat, but only in the evening and not the daytime kiddush.

YbM: That's interesting, and it's based on R' OY's knowledge of minhagim, and the limited function of kiddush in shul at the time of the Shulchan Aruch. I come from a community (and I'm familiar with many like it) where it is standard that after kiddush in shul everyone is careful to eat at least a kezayit of mezonot to be yotzei kiddush bimkom seudah. And moreover, on the eve of Simchat Torah there is also kiddush in shul, and this is the main kiddush that does not even fall in R' OY's heter you quote. Those whose wives made it to shul do not make kiddush at home, but for those whose wives did not make it, or on a standard Shabbat, the question still stands why it would be permitted to make kiddush over at home.

Isaac: YbM is right, if the kavanah of the reader should be taken into question then there should be no distinction between a male or female reader.

Hancock Park: It is not as rare as you might think. One Shabbat the onus of reading the Torah was placed upon me because most of the rabbis were out of town and I was the "only" one in shul who could read without nekudot. The fact was there was a woman there who could read without nekudot just as well as me, and she would have had more time and willingness to prepare. In the end I read it but I was very unprepared with the ta'amim (due to lack of motivation). If I could have passed the task off to her - I would have.

But let's not forget the Shulchan Aruch says something to the tone that it is a busha and a genai upon a family where someone needs his wife to recite kiddush for him. The same to a congregation that would need to resort to a woman to read the megillah.

[itchiemayer]

If everyone at the shabbos seudah in the home heard kiddish in shul, and had a kezayis of mezonos, then kiddush need not be said again. However, I find in virtually all cases, not every single person has satisfied the requirement, which is why it is usual to do kiddush before breaking bread.
Harav Yosef, shlita, actually did not break any new ground with this ruling. The heading had me very intrigued, but it is actually a non-story.
Women have different roles, but are every bit as important as the man within Torah Judaism. Anyone who believes the roles they have within traditional orthodox (Torah) Judaism are second-class don't believe in the Torah, and any orthodox woman that is unfulfilled in her role is lacking in faith. Now as I have said prior, a man should eat and drink below his means, dress according to his means, and honor his wife above his means. The woman sets the spiritual tempo within the home, not the man. A Jewish woman is of the utmost importance, and just because some people view the woman's role as inadequate, that is not the fault of the Torah. By the way, any orthodox Jewish man who feels unfulfilled in his role within Torah Judaism is also lacking in complete faith as well. It goes both ways.
In some cases, the men of particular sects do, I'm sure, not show their wives the proper respect, and in those cases, shame on them. But within true Torah Judaism, and I have seen this with my own eyes countless times, a woman can be religiously fulfilled with her traditional role, have a professional career, and is greatly respected within the home and the community. The Torah is perfect, and women do have different roles than men, but after all they are different. In our society today, we sadly blur the distinctions between men and women, thus stripping men of their masculinity, and self-respect. Men and women are physically different, emotionally different, and it is a fallacy of collosal proportions to believe that men and women are supposed to have the same roles. Egalitarianism is intellectually dishonest.
Anyhow, the Torah is perfect, the people are not.

[Norm]

Isn't this the same cult leader who said that God (I'm sorry HaShem) sent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Yorleans because Blacks didn't reasd the Torah? Who care what he says? Why do us normal Jews who live int eh 21st century give a drek about this pre-midevil nonsense.

[C-Girl]

"Controversies over women's issues have lately created a particularly great danger of fragmentation, and we must beware of making disagreements which do not touch upon fundamentals of the faith, the cause of schism within Modern Orthodoxy itself." One other point needs to be made. The argument that women asking to read Megillah are motivated by insincere feminist quests is particularly unfortunate. Having met countless numbers of womenin my synagogue, in my Torah classes at Stern College of Yeshiva University, in our Torat Miriam fellowship, and in communities around the world who are seeking to participate in women's Megillah reading, I know first hand of their sincere motivation. The right of women to read the Megillah has a clear basis in Halakhah. Their quest through this experience to reach higher religious levels of learning and spiritual striving is exemplary and should be applauded"

-Rabbi Avi Weiss, "Women and the Reading of the Megillah", 1998

Read it in its entirety here: http://www.jofa.org/pdf/Batch%201/0014.pdf

[C-Girl]

Itchiemeyer-there are ways of empowering women which do not strip men of their masculinity and self-respect, and there are ways of doing so which actually enhance their masculinity and increase the respect given to them by others. You would be surprised to find that in "true Torah Judaism" there are women who talk (privately) of the joy they would find in leining megillah (and even Torah). They know the halacha, they know the Mishnas & Baraitas- the ones that permit these things and the ones that do not- by heart. But "it is a fallacy of collosal proportions to believe" that everything you wrote is happily accepted in every community.

[Isaac Balbin]

ah-pee-chorus: it didn't take long

Ah, the benefit of another timezone. Good morning sleepy heads :-)

for someone to find a way to negate this ruling, did it? isaac balbin?
negate. Hmm, I assume you don't mean negate in it's logical (sic) sense.

You probably mean "nullify; make ineffective"
Well, I didn't nullify anything Rav Ovadya said and I have read much about this issue before.
As to "make innefective" I guess that's in the eyes of the beholder. My comments were a practical observation; perhaps it was an uncomfortable reality for those who see women as down trodden in the eyes of Gd and His religion.

we are lucky to have people like you who will stand up to defend their "women as second class citizens" halacha.

What a shallow view of Halacha you seem to portrayTo be classed as an apikores, I think you need to be a tad more learned in what you write.

My comment about the inappropriatness of a singular motivation for doing a Mitzvah based on feminisim or secular "equal" rights, stand. Is is also held by Poskim who others class as "lenient" in their rulings regarding Koved HaTzibbur vis a vis women. If you wish to extrapolate from that and conclude that I was making a comment about "women" in general, then I'd say you were intentionally or rashly intellectually dishonest and prone to engaging in transparent hyperbole.

never you mind what the real halacha is.
Actually, I do mind. That's why I would listen to a woman say the Megillah if I couldn't and also found myself in Wagga Wagga on Purim with no competent male.

Did Rav Ovadya say that a woman should read if a man who knows how to read is present? No, he did not. Do you know why? Because unlike you and some of the other commenters, he actually decides Halacha as opposed to some quixotic invention of the post-modern metrosexual.

Check out some of Rabbi Frimers' essays (and audio) on this topic as well as Rav Henkin and look before you leap.

[itchiemayer]

"it is a fallacy of collosal proportions to believe" that everything you wrote is happily accepted in every community.
C-Girl - For sure, not everything I write is accepted in all communities. I also don't usually agree with Rabbi Avi Weiss. What Jews should be looking to do is the preferable way to fullfill mitzvos, not looking for leniencies. Remember, just because something is allowed, does not make it preferred. Also, the sincerity of these women to do their own megilla reading has nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong. Find me a gadol b'yisroel who would say women doing it on their own is allowed and preferred, and I would consider it. Otherwise, no way. Perhaps, as you say, a woman believes they would find joy in it, but that does not make it halachically allowable or preferable. C-girl, provide backup as to why women should be allowed to read megilla on their own. It does not matter what they think would give them joy or their sincerity in the matter. What matters is what is halachically allowed, and then what is halachically preferred.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Isaac Balbin :

++Hmm, I assume you don't mean negate in it's logical (sic) sense.

You probably mean "nullify; make ineffective++

you know what happens when u assume... i wrote exactly what i meant. you hold no position which would actually permit u to nullify his ruling. however, your important first comment did immediately attempt to deny (a synonym for negate) it. because isaac balbin must be much better versed in halacha than yosef, for he forgot to add your important additional requirement, i.e. her motivation.
how often have you worried about a male reader's motivation?

++What a shallow view of Halacha you seem to portrayTo be classed as an apikores, I think you need to be a tad more learned in what you write.++

and rather than use logic and examples to dispute my assertion that women in halacha are second class citizens, you try to attack me on a personal level. that is intellectual dishonesty. do you want to get into a discussion where we look at the halachas of males versus females? lets see if women would be viewed objectively as the second class citizens to which i referred.
you do seem well schooled in issue avoidance, and strawman techniques.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Any rabbi who wears a wizard robe and sunglasses all the time must be a really holy man. How dare you, APC, to question the ruling of the wizard.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sometimes Chacham Yosef is very retro, and sometimes (like here) he is very innovative. If he smokes hashish, to paraphrase Lincoln about Gen. Grant's driking problem, find out what kind of hashish Rav Yosef is smoking and give it to all the other rabbanim.

[ah-pee-chorus]

++What Jews should be looking to do is the preferable way to fullfill mitzvos, not looking for leniencies.++

Posted by: itchiemayer | March 02, 2009 at 09:35 AM

that sums up the twisted pervasive view of halacha amongst the haredi community. did you ever consider the overriding filters which are applied to all halacha.. lo bashamayim hee? the torah must be fitting for its followers on the earth. this gives reasonable people both the directive and the latitude to enact reasonable interperetations to halacha. v'chai bahem. another push for not imposing hardships.
isn't it equally fair to alter your quote by saying," What Jews should be looking to do is the preferable way to fullfill mitzvos, not looking for more chumras." where did you get the right to proclaim that leniencies are in any way less preferred

isn't it interesting that all of these halachic rulings that people like IB
and itchie claim as the final word come from men?
isaac, do you see how silly it looks when you attempt to claim women are equal in halacha, the very same halacha which can only be interpereted by gedolim? no gedolot? which rulings issued by women do you follow as halacha? i love when rebbeim issue rulings that call women equal. they're not equal enough to make rulings but... i declare them so. open your eyes to the truth. the torah is one of the most sexist documents ever written.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Like a Chazzan (apologies to Madonna/Esther)

I made it through the Midbar
Somehow I made it through
Didn't know how lost I was
Until I found Yosef

I was female, incomplete
I'd been bad, I was goyish, untrue
But kabbalah makes me feel,
My red ribbon is so real,
Shiny and Jewish

Chorus:

Like a chazzan
Layning for the very first time
Like a chazzan
With the megillah
Open to page nine

Gonna give you all my love, Goy
My money is fading fast
Been saving it all for Jews
'cause only fads can last

It's mehadrin and it's kosher
Layn it strong, yeah it makes me yosher
Oh your Purim torah brought out
Yeah, your psak din brought out
What was sacred, like Moshe

(chorus)

Oooy, oooy, oooy

You're so fine and shayn punim
Ill be yours till moshiach time
'cause you made me feelin'
Yeah, I'll wear tefilleen'
I've got hester-panim

(chorus)

Like a chazzan, ooy, ooy
Like a chazzan
Feels so good in shul
With your tikkun, and your trup beats, and your mechitza

Oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy, oy
Nu, bubbeleh
Can't you hear my kol isha
For the very first time?

[Note: This is a parody; I approve of Reb Yosef's ruling- not that he cares].

[maven]

Odd, how when once again (as in the case of transplants) when R. Yosef pushes the halacha forward he is still attacked on this list. I suppose it doesn't matter what you do...

At any rate, that line in Tosefos that everyone uses to explain the "differences" between men and women, nashim daatan kalot, is from a book that is likely by Eldad Hadani, and may or not be a forgery, but is certainly not a standard Rabbinic text.
This has been one of the major failures of Modern Orthodoxy, because of fear of attack from the right, they always sound like itchiemayer, spouting those same "talking points", I remember every shul Rabbi spoke about "dignity of life" until R. Yosef and others allowed organ transplants. R. Yosef had allowed wearing pants back in the 1980s, for example, until he succumbed to pressure, and tempered the ruling.
R. Kook had written that if we had a Sanhedrin today, alot of things would change appropriately (The Sefas Emes defines Torah Sh'be'al peh as the aligning of Torah with real life and rectification of injustice, in the segments on bnot Zelofchad). Unfortunately, all we have are bloggers :)

[ah-pee-chorus]

wsc : shame on me , to apologize .......i'm off to see the wizard...

[itchiemayer]

apc - are not you a non-believer anyway? What do you care about halacha, what gedolim say or don't say, etc..? You believe the Torah is sexist, but what does it matter since you don't have any faith in it anyway. Coming from your perspective, I wouldn't expect you to say anything different from what you do say. Your philosophy is strictly driven by societal standards, which at times can make what the halacha is "appear" to be unfair, sexist, and outdated to those that don't have faith.

[itchiemayer]

Yochanan HaLevi - I am not so sure about what is so innovative about what HaRav Ovadia is saying here. If in the unlikely event I found myself on Purim in a community of 10 men who cannot read the megilla (I cannot), and a woman who could,and there was no way to another community, I would listen to the woman read. Hopefully R' Yosef is right, and I wouldn't find the woman's chanting arousing, but you never know.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Itchie: it depends on the woman...

(Disclosure: I don't know trup/tavim either).

[C-Girl]

Itchie, I found a few rabbis that seem to have no problem with women reading for others (including men)- Rashi and the Rambam, among them. In addition, Orach Chayim 689 states that a women may fulfill the obligation for others (men included). However, there are also opinions that the women's obligation is to hear, not to read, an interpretation that seems to not resolve itself completely with the commentators- for example, the Rama stipulates that a women may read only for herself-- with the bracha to 'read', while others claim that she may only do so with the bracha to 'hear'. From the sheer volume and diversity of opinions, the only thing that is clear is that there must have been valid and pressing reasons why this issue came up (a lack of qualified men due to illness, war, other events?).

Apparently, this is not a halachic issue (already decided), but a political one- which has existed for a veeeerrrry long time. Therefore we can conclude that the true minchag is to disagree!!

And while I understand that Rabbi Weiss may not be your cup of tea, the arguments he presents are culled from traditional, accepted sources and come to some rather straightforward conclusions. I do not expect you to agree with Rabbi Weiss' and others' opinions, but at least you might be honest in your explanation as to why you disagree. But I'm not buying the halacha card.

[itchiemayer]

C-Girl - Do Rashi and Rambam say this even when there are G-d fearing men that are able to read? I'm not sure what they say, so I am asking out of curiousity. I said if only a woman knows how to read the megilla, then I would listen to her. C-Girl - you really should pay attention to what is written, so you can respond appropriately. Are you single? I'm looking for a frum woman I can "spar" with! Yochanan HaLevi - yes, I suppose it depends on the woman! Hey, does anyone know if Bar Raphaeli is having a megilla reading this year?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Off. of the Ch. Rab. sez (ootcr)
Rav Ovadia must be getting senile.
And i say, that gives him (ootcr) up as a min sefardi hating chabadnik.

Sorry, Yosef b Mitityahu, but you're wrong. Since VIN won't publish my retorts you couldn't know that I told them, on this story, that Rav Ovadia's senile like the rebbe from 770 was 10 years before he died.
Chumra of the week club should take the issue up. All Jews have to know how to davven, lein Torah, Haftarah, Aicha, Esther, 3 other megillot, even Torah for the Daze of Awe, because chas v'shalom one should be motzi from a women. Tell me again how they're exempt from P'ru Ur'vu.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Itchie, I am far more devoted to Torah and yiddishkheit than I let on, or give as an impression. I have spent a half-century looking at Jews of all stripes to see where I best fit in.
One thing is for sure, I look at orthodox communities, and their arrogance, pettiness, infighting, racism, and senseless hatreds of each other and of all outsiders, and I can safely conclude that that is not for me. Can I be a Torah Jew but not like the vast majority of orthodox Jews that I've encountered in my life? I don't know if there is such a thing.

You may laugh at the following statement, but the closest thing I've discovered thus far to a Torah Judaism with some genuine joy, heart and soul is Lubavitch. Yes, yes, they are deeply flawed, but at least they seem to have the right idea, notwithstanding the Meschichist mess and the Rubashkin criminality.

My parents, OBM, used to tell me of the great rabbeim of der alter heim. There is nobody today even close. Only the Lubavitcher Rebbe, at least in my mind, was in the same league.

There is much too much reliance on today's rebbeim for all decision making. They have shown themselves to be unworthy. I don't want old guys with beards who wear bath robes all day (sorry Shmarya) to tell me what to do. I'll take a pass on them, thank you, and I'll read what I can, listen to all kinds of opinions, and use my own brain and decide what to do.

One thing we can all agree upon- if Ms. Bar R. decides to do a Megillah reading, it will be the best attended event since the giving of the 10 Commandments.

[ah-pee-chorus]

'itchie: whether or not the torah's author was god, it is possible to discuss whether it is being applied properly, in keeping with the author's seeming intent.
also, intead of rejecting the obvious, why not be honest and admit the torah is quite sexist but that you have no problem with that since it's gods will.

[Dr. Dave]

Why is everyone talking in italics?

Why not be bold?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Tell me again how they're exempt from P'ru Ur'vu.

Posted by: Office of the Chief Rabbi | March 02, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Chief rabbi try cloning. Everybody must get cloned.

[itchiemayer]

apc - The Torah is not sexist. a man should eat and drink below his means, dress according to his means, and honor his wife above his means. This is a Torah concept, and certainly not a sexist one. And what about the laws of shomer negiah. The laws apply equally to men and women. This is an empowerment of women, exactly contrary to what would exist in a truly male dominated religion. To ye of little faith, the Torah may seem sexist. I just wonder why you even care, given your lack of faith in Toras emes. Nevertheless, I have no problem engaging you in such discussion.

[itchiemayer]

Greetings WSC - I understand that the behavior of many might alienate you. However, whether or not there are Rebbeim today like there were yesterday, and no matter the meshugas in the frum world today, at the end of the day observing shabbos, taharas mishpocha, kashrus, etc..are still obligations that must be fulfilled, hopefully b'simcha.

[C-Girl]

How adorable- a pick-up on FM! If I didn't already have a "sparring partner", this would make quite a 'how-we-met' story on onlysimchas... If you want, I'll see what my BFF Bar Rafeili is doing next week ;-)

But seriously, Rashi makes no such stipulation, saying only that if a man hears a woman lein Megillat Esther, his obligation has been satisfied. There appears to be no requirement that the man, himself, is incapable. The prohibitions based on zila milta and kavod ha-tsibbur are introduced later.

[itchiemayer]

Can't blame a guy for trying!

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Itchie, I think the truth is, regarding all of us alleged apikorsim here on FM, is that we are far more devoted to the ideal of Torah than you give us credit for, but we've been deeply disappointed time and time again.
And you are much more of a reasonable mensch than some folks here give you credit for.

Nice move on C-Girl, by the way.

These italics are really annoying. Shmarya, please, do something.

[Yochanan Lavie]

C-Girl is happily married (not to me, but to a friend of mine).

[Yonah]

If you've never heard a woman leyn before, I think there's an obvious high probability that you'll be weirded out the first time... but you'll hardly become a ba'al keri either. I really don't think it's arousing to anybody but a really obscure fetishist.

[itchiemayer]

WSC - I have also been disappointed by the failings of our leaders. However, and I have said this before, the earth is still spinning so I know there is pure Torah being learned l'shem shomayim by tzaddikim. Nevertheless, we must prevail over our yetzer hora. It is easy to say well this Rosh Yeshiva or that Rabbinic leader has fallen short of what is expected, so therefore, I won't keep shabbos, I won't keep kashrus etc..That is our old nemesis, the evil inclination talking. As far as you being an apikoris, chas v'shalom! I perhaps have implied that one person here is an apikoris, and that person is not you. Well, it was ah-pee-chorus, but come on, with a name like that he is asking for it! Nevertheless, I really don't think apc is anyway. However, I couldn't resist my ah-pee-chorus is spreading ah-pee-chorsus line. I thought it was pretty good. Really, he is just misguided, not a heretic. I am quite sure he would say the same about me!

[Yonah]

If you've never heard a woman leyn before, I think there's an obvious high probability that you'll be weirded out the first time... but you'll hardly become a ba'al keri either. I really don't think it's arousing to anybody but a really obscure fetishist.

(If this is a double post, I apolosise.)

[itchiemayer]

Yochanan HaLevi, thanks for rubbing it in! :)

[ah-pee-chorus]

itchie: i don't know where to begin.

breishis 3:16 a husband shall rule over his woman.
breishis 19:8 lot offers his daughters to be raped. then his wife is killed for looking at something forbidden.
shmos 21:3 male slave cant take wife or children with him since they are property of owner.
shmos 21:7 you can sell your daughters into (sex?) slavery.
vayikra 27:3-5 torah explicitly says women worth less than men
bamidbar : woman cant make an oath without hubbys permission.

torah has numerous stories of barren women giving birth to boys and all were happy, not once for a girl .
do i have to go on? be honest.

[ah-pee-chorus]

itchiemayer : you are correct that i take no offense at being labeled an apc or i wouldnt have chosen the name. but when you wrote, " he is just misguided, not a heretic. I am quite sure he would say the same about me! " that is offensive. it might make you feel better to think that theres no way someone who has a yeshiva background could really deny that there is a god and he authored a book for us 33oo years ago, but it is true. i'm sure you wouldn't want me to say that i know deep down you are a heretic .
i give u the benefit that u were just trying to be dan lekaf zechus, but for the record, unless the bar for apikursus is purposely set unattainably high, i am one.

[Isaac Balbin]

ah-pee-chorus: because isaac balbin must be much better versed in halacha than yosef, for he forgot to add your important additional requirement, i.e. her motivation.

Let's get a few things straight. The article didn't mention other qualifications that Rav Ovadya provided. Did you read those? I did. In commenting on the article, I expressed my view that there is a limitation to all such acts, as expressed by Poskim. You don't like it. So be it. If a man wants to be Motzi you in a Mitzvah and his primary intention is to mimic an "ism" then it ought to be no different. It just so happens, and I am confident that you'd concede this point, that in context there are a not insignificant number of women whose motives are less than Torah.

The people who drive to Shule on Shabbos etc don't profess to be observant, nor do they attempt to make the Halacha fit them. While there are certainly Nashim Tzidkoniyos who are purely motivated (I have a cousin who answers Nidah Sheylos at Nishmat, for crying out loud, and who is a huge Talmida Chachama but has no shemetz of any ism other than Judaism as her motivation) there is a new sprouting of women (and men) who imitate such Nashim Tzidkoniyos but who have questionable Yiras Shomayim. We have a "Shira Chadasha" style group here in Melbourne. I don't wish to say Lashon Hara about them, but let's say that so much of the behaviour outside of the prayer service is out of step with Halacha that it makes a mockery of those women who are sincere. Someone driving to Shule is usually just a Mumar L'Teyavon as opposed to the post-modern western feminisim variety.

Finally, I didn't attack you personally. Please re-read what I wrote, and consider an apology.

Mr Rosenberg, all text is italicised again, for some reason.

[maven]

Motivation is a meaningless concept in halacha, that's another item we've adopted from the Protestants (I suppose that's true in all the Anglo countries). There's exactly one halacha that hinges upon motivation, and since I don't think even Archie, itchie, or Isaac are spending alot of time advocating for pigul and nossar I think that these arguments whether the Shira Chadasha crowd are mumars, feminists, soprano fetishists or have other intentions is entirely irrelevant. (If intention counts, I was part of the earliest Shira Chadasha group in Jerusalem, and that was the most motivated serious group of people I ever had the zechus to know.)

[ah-pee-chorus]

isaac, maven hit the nail on the head. motivation is not your or the halachas concern, and yet you seem to wish to apply it quite readily to a woman reader perhaps as a disqualifier. rav yosef mentioned it not at all.
saying i need to be a tad more learned is a put-down where i come from. so no apology will be forthcoming in this regard.

[ML]

I agree that the Torah is sexy.And what's wrong with being sexy?

[Yochanan Lavie]

What would be a better translation of kavanah? Intention? How does that differ from motivation, if so. Not a trick question; I want to understand.

Yonah: Your post was a hoot. I heard there are brothels where the whores dress up like nuns, so you never know.

[maven]

Kavanah in halacha means intention to perform the mitzva, as opposed to accidentally performing the mitzva. If you intended to hear shofar on Rosh Hashana, you are yotze, whether you also like the sound, or are a fan of animal equality (or are simply a behaymo), that's not part of the equation.

In the medieval times the term kavvanat hamitzvot was used for philosophical explanations, and then a bit later it became used for mystical contemplation during the performance of a ritual act, but neither of these translations is the halachic legal translation.

[ah-pee-chorus]

kavanah imho refers to complete concentration and lack of all distraction, whilst paying attention to and really meaning the words being spoken. one who is completely absorbed in his davening is said to be davening with kavanah.
i believe it is not one and the same as intention, since i might have agreed to be a chazzan because i am getting paid, yet do so with complete kavanah.
others are free to correct me as always.

[ah-pee-chorus]

"I heard there are brothels where the whores dress up like nuns, so you never know. "

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | March 02, 2009 at 06:03 PM

would that be considered kissing your sister?

[Yoel]

Funny to think about: how someone (like me) can express an opinion, and with reasons related to that opinion, and then its called the "police". The opinion, nor the reasons can be "other" and not agreed to, but that doesn't make it "The Police". See, that is how dialogue is diverted. Lack of dialogue is the root cause of a lot of the problems in the frum world, because of the intellectual freedom needed. But perhaps one can see this problem outside the frum world too. There everything can be cast down with mockery, or making a face, or other dismissive gestures and rhetoric. That's why I recommend golf instead of that. Now, if that doesn't take up all one's time, perhaps other similarly useful activities can be found.

[Yoel]

Oh, just wanted to weigh in with a personal thought: R. Ovadiah Yosef's view here seems very solid and reasonable. Nor does it appear he is motivated by pandering to contemporary sensibilities. It is likely this is what he actually believes based on Torah. I would conjecture he is neither motivated to elevate women, or degrade women with his ruling... he is just issuing another opinion for his followers, and it is probably something he has done many times before.

[Isaac Balbin]

I mentioned having read R. A. Frimer on this general topic (he has a large essay). My response to Mr Pee-Chorus seems to have disappeared.

Here are some quotes from those of you who think this is "groundbreaking" and for those of you think that simplistic mysogony drives my weltenschaung. Let's be a little more careful with our learning.

From Rabbi Prof. Frimer:

" It should be made clear that there is absolutely nothing new in Rav Ovadiah Yosef's recent pronouncement and he has been saying this for years. He maintains that the mehaber in OH 689:1 holds that women are obligated equally with men and hence can be motsi them. In 689:2, the Mehaber brings a dissenting view that women cannot be motsi men. However, the Halakha says Rav Ovadiah is like the first opinion, but becauise of the dissenting view, one should be Mahmir leHatkhilla. This is the Psak for Sefaradim ONLY!

The Rema in 689:2 rules like the Behag that women cannot be motsi men. That is Ashkenazic Pesak.

Regarding women's Megilla readings for women R. Ovadiah Yosef, Yabia Omer, VIII, O.H., sec. 56, end of no. 4 writes: ?...the custom of women who make a minyan by themselves for mikra Megilla...should be encouraged.? Thus, he holds this is leKhatehilla. Indeed, his son R. David Yosef, Torat ha-Moadim: Hilkhot u-Minhagei Purim ve-Hodesh Adar, sec. 5., note 9, p. 139, s.v ve-ha-Rema, indicates that despite the rulings of Magen Avraham and Korban Netanel, Ashkenazi (and certainly Sefardi) women can read for women. For more on this subject, see: ?Women?s Megillah Reading,? Aryeh A. Frimer, In ?Traditions and Celebrations for the Bat Mitzvah,? Ora Wiskind Elper, Editor; Urim Publications: Jerusalem, 2003; pp. 281-304. Word file available at: http://www.matan.org.il/Data/UploadedFiles/Free/bm_Frimer_eng_101.doc; PDF file available online at: http://www.mail-jewish.org/Women%27sMegillaReadingArticle.pdf; HTML files available at http://www.lookstein.org/articles/women_megilla_rea
ding.htm; http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimer2.htm.

RO Yosef is also quoted in this shiur as permitting one to read from a Megilla written by a woman. There is nothing new here either and this has been his public position since 1983. See: Yabi`a Omer 8, Orah Hayyim #55, starting from the middle of sec. 3."

[ah-pee-chorus]

Yoel : your opening line was ,

"isn't appropriate using the forum to make fun of Halachah. If one doesn't believe that the halachic process reveals the divine will, then you might as well just go play golf. Everything will then be up for grabs to make fun of, and such satire "

who are you to decide what is or isn't appropriate to discuss on one of the few forums where differing opinions of religion and halacha are routinely discussed? if you're not the moderator, then you must be the "appropriate" police.

then, after that fine opening line, here, you instantly contradict yourself. you mention the importance of dialogue and the need for intellectual freedom . i couldn't agree more. but its going to be awful hard for you to dialogue with someone who has a different viewpoint after you have told them not to post it. unless maybe when you spoke of this freedom you were referring only to yourself.

[Yochanan Lavie]

In English, the difference between intention and motivation is very slight. I realize that Hebrew, being a Semitic language, is cognitively different and therefore translation is especially difficult. (See "Hebrew Thought compared with Greek" by Thorlief Boman).

So, if your intention is to be makayam the mitzvah, even if your motivation is ulterior, you are still makayam (if one holds mitzvot tzrichot kavanah, for the sake of arguement- I think the majority say not). Is that the difference?

[maven]

yes, yochanan, that's correct. the only time a thought process can undo a proper action is in the case of pigul and nossar. that's the problem with Judaism today; in the old days it didn't really matter what you thought as long as your actions were correct, but now we have these absurd arguments, such as that Gil Student and others propogate, about "orthoprax" vs "orthodox", and all this political stuff about blind observance of Rabbis as defining "Jews".

[Isaac Balbin]

Mr Rosenberg, have you banned me from this blog or is it coincidence that my last two posts have disappeared?

[Shmarya]

Mr Rosenberg, have you banned me from this blog or is it coincidence that my last two posts have disappeared?

I haven't banned you.

TypePad is having a series of bugs.

Send me an email with the comments you want posted, noting which post they should be on, and I'll try to get them up for you sometime today.

You can also try clearing the any site cookies and posting again to see if that works.

[Dr. Dave]

Let's summarize:

Corn and rice on pesach.
Only wait 3 hours to eat dairy.
Girls gone wild - about leining.

How do I sign up to be sfard? Isn't it just a quick neder?

[Hometown Postville]

To ah-pee-chorus: You go girl!

[ah-pee-chorus]

Hometown Postville : thnx. lol

[ah-pee-chorus]

Dr. Dave : if that sounds good, wait till you hear what i'm offerring! and no neder required.

[ah-pee-chorus]

corn and rice and anything else on pesach and year round.

cook your steak in butter (even judaism permits this, until the silly fence-builders took over)

girls gone wild....

to quote the atheist bus campaign,
"There’s probably no God, Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/europe/07london.html?em

[WoolSilkCotton]

Let's say two people of similar background receive the same yeshiva education, get similar grades, and graduate.
One then decides- after a lot of introspection- that the Torah, God, and religious observance are not for him.
The other decides to accept the whole package and becomes a very orthodox Jew.

This does not make one of them a bad person and one of them a good person. It also doesn't make one of them right and the other wrong.

However, the orthodox person will invariably become upset at the other one, and try to convince him to become religious. In fact, he will, more often than not, become angry at the one who opted out of religious observance.
The nonrelgious person will not be angry at the observant one, nor will he typically try to convince him to become nonreligious.

So why does the religious one always feel he has to convince the nonreligious person to become religious? I suspect it's a deep rooted need to convince others so that he can confirm, in his own mind, that he made the right choice. Nobody can possibly be convinced, absolutely positively, that buying entirely into the religious route is the right decision. But if you can twist other peoples' arms into becoming 'believers', you somehow make yourself more at ease with your decision.

[itchiemayer]

WSC - I think what you just wrote is very presumptuous regarding anger and insecurity of orthodox vs. non-orthodox. Funny, but with regards to the catholic church, I tell my fellow Jews to mind their own business, yet most, including non religious can't help but tell the catholic church what to do. So if Jews can tell the catholic church what to do, what is wrong with a religious Jew trying to "educate" a non-orthodox Jew. Moreover, I think you will agree I am not angry with anyone.
Of course, you can point out extreme cases of chasidim throwing rocks at cars on shabbos, but the vast majority of orthodox condemn that.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Itchie, Jews don't try to convince Catholics to become Jewish.

And if I had the same education as you, but decided not to be religious, why do you have to try to 'educate' me to become religious?

The vast majority of orthodox I have met over the years do indeed look down their noses at nonorthodox Jews.

[Chicago Samson]

Everyone must get cloned?!

I hear a new song in the works!

On a brighter note, if the Haredim got stoned more often, or took some Prozac, they would probably be nicer to hang out with. LOL

[Reb Doniel]

This is the beauty of our Sephardic halachic tradition; indeed, to quote Rav Auerbach, it takes a far greater understanding of halacha to be maikil than machmir.

Anybody above who has belittled Rav Yosef, one of our gedolim, is guilty of showing a lack of kavod ha torah.

[itchiemayer]

You can't blame an orthodox Jew for trying to be mekarev someone, as long as it is done respectfully, etc..

Be that as it may, I do not look down at non-orthodox Jews, especially with my many shortcomings. I'm sorry to hear that most you know do look down on non-orthodox.

I still don't get what is groundbreaking about what Rabbi Yosef, shlita, said. It certainly falls in line with my belief system, and I am certainly not a Torah feminist.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Itchie, if more orthodox Jews were as menschlich as you, the world would be a better place.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks Maven; you're thoughtful as usual.

Reb D: Chozrei b'teshuvah should adopt sepharidc minhagim if they don't know their own. I have adopted many Sephardic minhagim myself.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Yochanan Lavie : with the sefardi influence, can you throw a looloolooloolooo into your next parody?

[Yochanan Lavie]

APC: Why not, habibi.

[maven]

I dunno, throwing a loo into a sex pistols parody may be just what sid vicious might have done at the time.

[itchiemayer]

Sid Vicious (killed his Jewish girlfriend), Paul Cook, Johnny Rotten (Lyden), and Steve Jones. How many orthodox Jews have this info on the tip of their tongues!

[ah-pee-chorus]

itchie, i am impressed. never would have guessed.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I saw Johnny Lyden and PiL at the Brooklyn Zoo in Sheepshead Bay back in the 1980's.

[Reb Doniel]

Yochanan Lavie,

I agree with you. In many cases, the Sephardic halacha is closer to what was originally practiced in the days of Chazal, the Geonim, Rif, Rambam and Maran Rav Yosef Caro.

[Reb Doniel]

Also, the Sephardic halacha and minhagim are notably maikil with the exception of meat, which is supposed to be Chalak Beit Yosef. The Sephardic approach is more consonant with modernity; in our world, there never was a conflict between our faith and engagement with the broader scoiety/ secualr learning. Our derech ha limud is also broader and includes not just Gemars B'Iyun, but all of the Torah she Bikatav/ Tanach, all of the Talmud and also theology, philosophy, and Jewish thought and mysticism. Rav Uziel, Rav Hayim David HaLevi, and others exemplify this grand mesorah and worldview.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Reb D: I like the Sephardi derech, but I also like Temani Dor Da'aim, and the German Hirschian approach. But I heard the Spanish-Portugese kehillot in Germany were disproportionately influential on their hashkafah.

[Dr. Dave]

I saw Steve Jones as opening act at a concert in the early 1980's in Saratoga Springs, NY. The single loudest and worst concert I have ever seen.

He cussed out the audience as we walked out on him.

[Reb Doniel]

I do too.

The interesting question raised by Temanim is what exactly is "Orthodox"? Following the Shulchan Aruch really isn't part of the criteria when you consider the Yemenites, becase they and the Spanish-Portuguese hold primarily by the Rambam, although there are many instances where Temenai halacha differs from both.

I am Sephardic but also Modern Orthodox; I indetify with Hirsch, the Rav, and also Open Orthodoxy.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Reb D: I like the Union for Traditional Judaism. I am as Ashkenazi a Tevye the Milkman, but I identify more with Sephardic religiousity. I like the Yiddish language however. Many of the great 19th-20th century Yiddish writers understood the Golden Literary Age in Spain and tried to emulate it in Yiddish.

[maven]

The Golden Literary Age was a Romanticized construct to create an alternative Jewish model than the one portrayed in the surrounding environment of the hooknosed rag merchant.
I don't think you would have felt freer living in those days, the Rambam was forced into exile as were the Spanish and Portuguese Jews, and observance within the community was very tightly regulated.

And, honestly, they set up grammatical (and hermeneutic) rules in Hebrew that were problematic; I can't help but prefer the classical piyut of Yannai, HaKallir, etc that is freer and more like modern poetry :)

[maven]

A major fantasy purveyor of this Golden Age of Spain was none othe than Disraeli, so you can work out the purpose of the iconography from there.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maven: I know it wasn't all golden, but from the POV of Ashkenazim living in Poland it was. It also provided a literary model for them to emulate that was Jewish and not German or Slavic. A writer named Safir wrote historical novels in Yiddish about Sephardic Spain, for example. As for poetry, it's a matter of taste. You probably prefer the Metaphysical Poets to the Romantics if you prefer the classical piyutim to the Sephardic writers.