The Talmud And Demons: A Comic By Yonah

This is really good!

It is based on the Talmud excerpt from our post on the possible medical source for demons in the Talmud.

From Yonah at Talmud Comics. Please click to enlarge:



You can see more of Yonah's work here.

Comments

[ctron]

Yonah is the shit.

[pam's the man]

Yonah is my idol.

[Rachel]

Yonah, your comic rocks.

[Yonah]

I didn't hire, blackmail, bribe, or encourage any of those people to post such things.

[A. Nuran]

Nice. Very nice.

[Aaron]

This is great. My chavrutah and I were moving right along in Masechet Chulin, Perek Chet. And, I for the life of me was going on and on about this demon stuff. My take was simply that demons are nothing more than outcasts of society. Think Indian Caste system. Then apply the fact that it claims one of the Rabbis employed a demon. So it was obvious some could actually see them. I think it was more about what you wanted to see and not see in life. These outcasts were probably really really scummy looking people that were very dehumanized. Otherwise, if this is not the case, the whole concept is complete out and out superstition used to control the masses through fear mongering of what "cannot be seen."

[Yonah]

The demons as outcasts is an interesting theory, but I don't know if it really holds given all the varied roles of demons... or rabbinic ideas of what it means to be an outcast. On the other hand, they don't have to be completely crazy superstitions, either. I like them as a metaphor for the subconscious - all those repressed, un- or counter-halakhic thoughts and impulses... it makes sense, too, because the higher you climb, the more crippling your doubts and self-sabotaging instincts become.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yonah- I am not worthy! Beautiful artwork.

"I thought I was the Failed Messiah Parody king/ But I just handed my pun-ball crown to him."

Is that dude on the right the Casparer Rebbe?

[ah-pee-chorus]

this was one of the gemaras that started me on my path to where i am today.

[maven]

Of course, a cartoonist like Jonah, looking for a cheap shot, would never post the end of this sugyah which states that all this is only relevant to those who believe in such things, meaning that even the redactors of the Talmud were doubtful about this.

I don't see how trying to apply current standards to the seventh century is a meaningful exercise, much of the world literature from that period, and in most of Europe until VERY recently, looks just like that. Infant mortality of over 50%, most young women dying in childbirth, mean life expectancy being age 30, why wouldn't you try to do anything you could to beat the odds?
And I'd say, as a medical scientist, what they called demons we could very well describe as metaphors for infectious diseases, which were (and are), of course, unseeable causes of death that just creep on the victims. And that was true until only 50 years ago with the discovery of antibiotics.

[ah-pee-chorus]

maven, they were clearly referring to something far different. only shedim could rub the knees of your pants. and to claim that they had ruach hakodesh, and could be mechayeh maisim, just doesnt fit with their ignorance in so many areas. that would make god seem highly inconsistent in terms of the powers he granted them. the alternative explanation is far more likely and rational.

[Yonah]

Thanks, Yochanan, but nothing can beat a song about cat placenta.

Maven, I'm not looking for a cheap shot. Like I said above, there's a lot of truth in these demon stories - not like literal tiny people with wings flying around poking people, like powerful forces in both an uncontrollable, inscrutable creation and also within us. So we agree about their metaphorical nature (chachamim were never very literal-minded, anyway). And for all we think we've advanced, we still are in complete mystery about how the world works. I'm reminded of that guy in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy who gets stranded on a different planet and realises that he has no idea, none, how to make himself a toaster. It's all demons to most of us, certainly to me!

I'm not sure what you mean about the end of the sugiah, though - what's the citation?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yonah: You're welcome. For the record, I have 2 cats, but both are timtums now, so I cannot personally benefit from cat placenta.

[Simcha Daniel]

I love that the only person tempted to try the recipe was Bibi!

[maven]

Yonah-

I agree, and more importantly I believe they were far more sophisticated about midrash and what that means than today, where a neo-protestantism reigns so that the suggestion that the text was meant as metaphor makes one a heretic.

I'm at work, so I don't have the Talmud in front of me, but the end of one of the longer sections dealing with demons (perhaps in Hulin) ends that all of this is true only if one believes in shedim, which is a pretty heavy disclaimer (and one that would make a good end panel to a cartoon...)

[Yonah]

Right, I'm pretty sure it's not in Berachot - after this section, the Gemara kind of goes "Anyway..." and changes the topic to laws about the Sh'ma. So I don't think that the part you're referring to is not omitted due to maliciousness or because people are only interested in making the sages look dumb/un-modern - it's just in a very different area. Meanwhile, many of the sages clearly did believe in shedim, some of them in that literal way which seems bizarre to us from this distance. I don't blame them or think that makes me soooooo much better than them, chas v'shalom, but it's there. Thankfully the people around them often believed way freakier stuff.

[Yonah]

PS: Complete YES on the neo-protestantism and losing the art of midrash.

[Yochanan Lavie]

My miqra-centric vision by no means excludes midrash. I just don't like when the most fanciful "medrish" is taken ultra-literally, rather than allegorically or homeletically. I want to be neo-Jewish, not neo anything else (except maybe Neoconservaguy, whom I like).

[cr]

y not take it literaly" especially when thats the only way it makes sense:

sorry to dissapoint but what u r actually viewing is the first known reference to microbiology a millenia and a half prior to paracelsus

each of the things mentioned describes attributes or characteristics of fabric deterioration,bacteria induced fatigue (EBV) etc chemical analysis,carbon spectrometry ,finely ground black powder placed in the eye will appear as "spots" that floating and appear as microbes in a petri dish under a microscope, storage in non porous containers etc and universal precautions vs infection,
every person who views another microscopic world is at first repulsed by the "bugs" he sees that "outnumber us"

nezikin are actualy malachei chavalah or harmful agents but the sages of old talked to the ignorant masses in terms they could understand as they could not comprehend very much , im not sure how much we have evlolved since thenshow a lil respect will ya?

[Yochanan Lavie]

CR: I wasn't referring to this midrash in particular; just my general view. Yes, it can be a metaphor for what we now know as microbes. I teach English in the medical house of a high school, and one thing I have learned is that medicine is as much a narrative as it a science. As such, each culture has its own metaphors. Read: "The Spirit Catches You, and You Fall Down," about the Hmong refugees' encounter with western medicine in the USA, and how it conflicted with their traditional shamans. The Hmong, too, were animists who believed in shaydim.

I also find that of all scientists, doctors and their related fields are the most literarily inclined, and the best narrative writers (but not their handwriting!).

[Yonah]

Bacteria have chicken feet?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Well, chicken feet have bacteria...

[cr]

Einstein, under a microscope, or spectrographometer the very finely ground placenta of an ultra dark cat (similar to egg yolk) ashes will show tracings or etchings

you can verify this with a bacteriologist
or look up carbon spectroscopy or endoscopy
so in this case Watson,its elementary or rather alimentary

[generic viagra]

In Chaldean mythology the seven evil deities were known as shedu, meaning storm-demons. They were represented in winged bull form, derived from the colossal bulls used as protective genii of royal palaces, the name "shed" assumed also the meaning of a propitious genius in Babylonian magic literature.
It was from Chaldea that the name "shedu" came to the Israelites, and so the writers of the Tanach applied the word as a dylogism to the Canaanite deities in the two passages quoted. But they also spoke of "the destroyer"(Exodus xii. 23) as a demon whose malignant effect upon the houses of the Israelites was to be warded off by the blood of the paschal sacrifice sprinkled upon the lintel and the door-post.

[moshe]

Artistic expression should always be respected. But, an attempt should be made to utilize art forms to educate too.
Gemara / Talmud Comic.

http://www.amazon.com/Gemarah-Gems-Comics-Eilu-Metzios/dp/1449597017/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272826570&sr=8-1

[caverta]

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[Cash For Gold]

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[Susan Mervis, the Old Schoolmarm]

which came first? this failed messiah comic or michael chabon's idea of menachem mendel shpilman? i printed this comic out and pasted in the book; it's the perfect illustration...