Rubashkin Son-In-Law Attacks OU, Libels Hechsher Tzedek Founder

Rabbi Milton "Yehoshua" Balkany attacked Rabbi Morris Allen and the OU on Zev Brenner's radio show Saturday night. Listen below:

This clip is nine minutes long.

To hear it, you'll probably need to have your volume set high. Zev's Internet stream failed, so I recorded this audio off the video of his show. That video has lots of extraneous noise, and Balkany's voice is low. But it is still audible.

Balkany and Brenner never tell their listeners Balkany is Sholom M. Rubashkin's brother-in-law, and that Aaron Rubashkin is Balkany's father-in-law.

Balkany also misrepresents the facts of the case, and he clearly libel's Hechsher Tzedek (now Magen Tzedek) founder Rabbi Morris Allen.

Allen has pushed kashrut observance since the first day he came to Minnesota about 20 years ago and is known for this in the local Jewish community. He keeps kosher, and by far more of his synagogue members keep kosher than in the average Conservative synagogue.

Yet, as you'll hear, Balkany accuses Allen of eating treife.

Balkany attacks the OU for agreeing to allow a Magen Tzedek symbol to appear on food the OU supervises.

And Balkany attacks the Forward and Nathaniel Popper,claiming Popper's 'anti-Orthodox bias' was behind his reporting. To 'prove' this, Balkany cited Popper's Wall Street Journal piece. Agudath Israel's Avi Shafran wrote a laughable article about Popper's WSJ piece. Balkany seems to have drawn his talking points from it.

Not bad for a man who missed a term in a federal pen by the skin of his teeth.

Neither Balkany or Brenner mentioned that, either.

Comments

[Sam]

++Balkany and Brenner never tell their listeners Balkany is Sholom M. Rubashkin's brother-in-law, and that Aaron Rubashkin is Balkany's father-in-law.++

Practically most, if not all, Brenner's listeners know it. It is as necessary to say that as it is that he's an orthodox Jew.

[Yisroel Pensack]

"Balkany and Brenner never tell their listeners Balkany is Sholom M. Rubashkin's brother-in-law, and that Aaron Rubashkin is Balkany's father-in-law.
"...Balkany...
"Not bad for a man who missed a term in a federal pen by the skin of his teeth.

"Neither Balakny [sic] or Brenner mentioned that, either."

If these statements are true, that makes Brennner a propagandist and not a journalist.

[Yisroel Pensack]

I meant Brenner, with two "n"s, not three.

[critical_minyan]

zev brenner is a shandeh. a mouthpiece for the status quo.
the rubashkins and milton balkany should be put in cherem by the OU for the giant chilul hashem they continue to spread.
pulling the hechser is no longer good enough, if the OU wants to regain its reputation, it should put the rubashkin's in cherem.

[steve]

the rubashkins and milton balkany should be put in cherem by the OU

The current leadership at the OU should be put in cherem together with Rubashkin and Balkany.

[ML]

Which isn't going to happen.How about some real solutions?

[Yisroel Pensack]

"How about some real solutions?"

With the Agriprocessors scandal, we should pray it's not "the final solution."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Balkany has a reputation as a crook.

[yidandahalf]

How can the OU put anybody in cherem? It is absurd, steve is correct. They should cover themselves in ashes along with the Rubash-ins.Zev Brenner indeed will wallow in whatever he has to if it will make a 'story'.

[steve]

The OU's Chairman of Kasruth refused a bais din summons in 1985 after his company tried to sell a truck load of treife veal as kosher. If that's not enough to put a person in cherem, I don't know what is. Instead, he was given this honorable and powerful position by Genack.

[state of disgust]

I keep hearing these stories about the OU's chairman of Kashrut and it raises an interesting question:
a) Are the stories true? How do you know? Was it ever proven?
b) The issue occurred more then 20 years ago: Did he do tshuvah? Do you believe that he did tshuvah? If so, how did he do tshuvah?
c) Do you believe people are capable of change?
I don't know the man, but am curious how he could achieve such a position of prominence if he was truly guilty and unrepentant as seems to be implied.

[Archie Bunker]

Balkany is a lowlife but he is correct that Morris Allen does not keep kosher. The Conservative movement tells it's members that they consider certain non-kosher items & methods to be acceptable.

[Archie Bunker]

So much for Shmarya's fantasy that Satmar Chasidim have more of a propensity for crime than Blacks. Maybe Shmarya is the one suffering from Bonnet's Syndrome and sees little Satmars at every street corner waiting to rob people.

Will Failed Messiah Obama come to the rescue of victims of Black crime?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/us/16hispanic.html?pagewanted=print

February 16, 2009

Day Laborers Are Easy Prey in New Orleans

By ADAM NOSSITER

NEW ORLEANS — They are the men still rebuilding New Orleans more than three years after Hurricane Katrina, the head-down laborers from Honduras, Mexico and Guatemala who work on the blazing hot roofs and inside the fetid homes for a wad of cash at the end of the day.

But on the street, these laborers are known as “walking A.T.M.’s.”

Their pockets stuffed with bills, the laborers are vulnerable because of language problems and their status as illegal immigrants. And as Hispanics have become the prey of choice in crumbling neighborhoods here in one of America’s most crime-ridden cities, racial friction between the newcomers and longtime black residents has moved close to the surface.

Geovanny Billado, a worker from Honduras, spoke of one incident in which “they waited to punch me,” and “one of them stabs me with a knife.” It was four against one, Mr. Billado said, and he lost the $350 he had earned; another time, it was seven against one.

“You don’t get a chance to say anything,” he said. “They just fall on top of you. It’s better to just give the money up front. If you don’t give it to them, they’ll beat you and take it anyway.”

It is an under-the-radar crime epidemic: unarmed Hispanic workers are regularly mugged, beaten, chased, stabbed or shot, the police and the workers themselves say. The ruined homes they sometimes squat in, doubling- or quadrupling-up at night, are broken into, and they have been made to lie face down while being robbed.

They are shot when, not understanding a mugger’s command, they fail to hand over their cash quickly enough, shot while they are working on houses, and shot when they go home for the day. Some have been killed, their bodies flown home to families who had been dependent on their remittances.

At least once a week, the police receive reports of a mugging or a holdup — certainly an undercount, since illegal workers with little or no English generally do not go to the authorities.

Unshaven after spending nights in the open air and ragged in their paint-flecked work clothes, the men said that when guns are pointed at them, they have no choice but to hand over their cash.

When the day is over, and their employer for the day drops them off in the darkened Lowe’s parking lot, thugs could be waiting in the shadows for them, several said.

With resignation but no visible anger, more than half told of being threatened or robbed. One man, Armando Cruz, from Honduras, asserted flatly, to nods of assent, “Most of us here have been robbed.”

Many bluntly assigned a racial component, saying that it was “los morenos” — their colloquial term for blacks — who were after them. “When we are leaving here after work, we have to go on foot,” Mr. Billado said, speaking through an interpreter. “The blacks are waiting for us. They’ll beat you up. They’ll take your money.”

Such incidents can occur more than once a week, Mr. Billado said.

The police, the men said, either ignore their calls, admonish them for being in the country illegally or arrive too late at a crime scene to do any good.

“The blacks know when we have cash,” said Juan Guillermo Medina, another waiting worker. “Yes, it’s dangerous. But we have to be here. It’s the risk we run.”

Juan Francisco Suazo, another worker, recounted an incident in January outside a grocery when he was jumped by two men, one of whom grabbed him around the shoulders while the other brandished a milk crate over his head. The muggers took five days’ wages, Mr. Suazo said.

Outside the Lowe’s, another Honduran, Danny Diaz, recalled an incident in which he and a friend were coming out of a store and were ordered to turn over their money by two armed men. His friend was shot in the shoulder, Mr. Diaz said; it was one of three times Mr. Diaz had been assaulted in two months.

Roger Cruz, from Honduras, said: “A lot of people don’t know how to defend themselves. There’s racism of blacks against Latinos.”

“They took money from everybody,” said Cesar Reynoso, a Guatemalan, recalling the afternoon in December when he and five friends were robbed in the rough Central City neighborhood. They were in a sports field, Mr. Reynosa said, and four men pointed guns at them. They took $1,200 from the laborers.

“They just came up and took our stuff,” he said. “They were just yelling at us.”

He said the laborers called the police, “but they took forever to get there.”

The men expressed some bewilderment at finding themselves in the crosshairs, and more than a few directed earnest appeals to President Obama to alleviate their plight.

[ML]

Balkany is a lowlife but he is correct that Morris Allen does not keep kosher. The Conservative movement tells it's members that they consider certain non-kosher items & methods to be acceptable.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | February 16, 2009 at 02:04 PM

Have you personally seen Rabbi Allen eat treif? If no, then you're just spreading lashon hara (which you are a certified expert, no doubt).

[steve]

State of Disgust,

The stories are true, they were widely reported and documented. As for his tshuva, what would you think of a "rehabilitated" Moishe Finkel or Sholom Rubashkin as the head of kashrus at the OU? I thought so.

[itchiemayer]

ML - it is fact, and should come as no surprise, that the conservative movement does have lower standards with regards to kashrus. Still, to whatever extent Rabbi Allen has influenced people to keep kashrus, it is better than nothing at all.

State of Disgust writes: I keep hearing these stories about the OU's chairman of Kashrut and it raises an interesting question:
a) Are the stories true? How do you know? Was it ever proven?
b) The issue occurred more then 20 years ago: Did he do tshuvah? Do you believe that he did tshuvah? If so, how did he do tshuvah?
c) Do you believe people are capable of change?
I don't know the man, but am curious how he could achieve such a position of prominence if he was truly guilty and unrepentant as seems to be implied.

I have these same questions about rabbi Aharon Shechter as well, who allegedly refused a summons to Beis Din by Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT"L. How can a Rav turn his nose up at R' Moshe and still be considered a gadol. I don't get it.

Is change possible? Is doing teshuva possible? Of course it is, but it isn't easy and most people are too proud (and stupid) to do authentic teshuva.

[Archie Bunker]

Morris Allen preaches the COnservative line which justifies for non-kosher items and methods. Even if he follows a proper standard personally, he is leading the multitudes to sin which is a far greater crime.

Besides, as a Conservative "rabbi" why she he be more strict than what he is supposed to believe in?

[itchiemayer]

Agreed, Arch. However, to whatever extent they are not eating meat/dairy together, and are generally even somewhat aware of the laws of kashrus, then they surely be in violation of the laws of kashrus that much less. The less violations, the less harshly they will be judged in the heavenly court. I'm not saying it is a proper kashrus, but better a little bit than nothing at all.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Itchie: Judaism has become "all-or-nothingism." Given that choice, most Jews opt for nothing.

[Archie Bunker]

Actually, no. Putting a phony religious face on non-kosher is not the same as making an earnest effort to keep some but not all of the mitzvos.

In other words, Morris Allen is not saying, hey it's very difficult for us to keep everything so let's do most or some of it which is the best we can do right now, acknowledging that 100% adherence is the the correct way to do it. THAT would be admirable on Allen's part for getting people to do more, although I have no quarrel with those acting in earnest who are being misled by him.

What Shmorris is actually doing is presenting a fraudulent version of kosher, claiming that's all that you have to keep to make G-d happy. G-d has a special dislike for fakers who try to act "religious" in this fashion as noted in Nach. At least the Reform don't try to put a holy face on their non-observance.

[Yochanan Lavie]

If you guys keep up a long correspondence, it will be the "Itchie and Archie Show." (Simpsons).

[Archie Bunker]

The "Itchy & Scratchy Show" is no cartoon. It's Shmarya blogging away in an irritated state.

[Archie Bunker]

Has Shmarya ever bashed the fake Kabbalists? COnservative "rabbis" use a similar modus operandi. They prey on people by preaching a bunch of hogwash and make a living off it.

[itchiemayer]

Yochanan HaLevi - something is clearly better than nothing. My Father puts on tephillin every day, keeps Kashrus at home, and while orthodox affiliated, he is not shomer shabbos. Better this than not putting on tephillin, having a treif home, and not being shomer shabbos. Doing all is better than something, and doing something is better than nothing.

Of course "Rabbi" Allen is teaching apikorsis, but if it helps his flock observe a few more of the laws of kashrus, then better for the flock on their ultimate day of judgment. "Rabbi" Allen teaches apikorsis, as do, by definition, all non-orthodox "Rabbis". Sadly, even some orthodox teach apikorsism.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie: Who is Itchy and who is Scratchy?

Itchie: Good points.

[Isa]

To All:
Rabbi Morris Allen is a real traditional Conservative rabbi.
The rest in the area seem to be 'anything goes'

[Rachel]

Itchie, it's a real joy to hear an Orthodox Jew say that doing some mitzvot is preferable to doing none. As Yochanan said, there is way too much "all or nothing" thinking in Orthodoxy. I've experienced it, too, and I agree.

Every mitzvah is a force for good in the world. People should be encouraged to do as many mitzvot as they can, period. They shouldn't be mocked or discouraged because they have not taken on Orthodox observance.

[Itchiemayer]

Rachel - I'm glad I could bring you some joy! Of course, I do believe that orthodox (Torah) Judaism, as practiced in a truly sincere, non-hypocritical manner, is the best manner in which closeness to Hashem is achieved.

[nachos]

One man's treif is another man's gefilte fish!!!

[Archie Bunker]

Nachos is on to something. Thanks to another scandal covered up by the OU, most of the gefilte fish in the country may have been treif for years too.

The OU also has a foolish policy called "Level 1" food classification whereby they claim that many items do not need supervision (while they still pocket fees as if they are supervising). They said this about olive oil before the New Yorker magazine reported that mafia families have been hijacking shipments and substituting chemically-altered soybean oil. They said this about raisins when most batches tested have been infested with insects. The OU continues to be in denial.

[Shmarya]

Archie really is way off base here. He's also malicious and evil, but that is hardly new.

So let's say Conservative Judaism permits swordfish.

Archie calls this "leading the multitudes to sin."

But is it?

Moroccan Jews ate swordfish until they came to Israel in the 1950s.

They only stopped (to the extent they did) because their rabbis – who actually SAW swordfish (unlike the Ashkenazi haredi rabbis who ruled it treif) and knew what it was – wanted to avoid fighting with Ashkenazi rabbis who behave like Archie.

Moroccan rabbis do not think swordfish is treife.

Jews in Morocco still eat it, as do their Moroccan rabbis there, as do all North African Jews, and as did pockets of Jews in Europe pre-WW2 and their Orthodox rabbis.

So rabbis today permitting swordfish in America is "leading the multitudes to sin" according to Archie.

Seems to me that and similar "sins" pale in comparison to the actual biblical sins Archie does here every day.

[Archie Bunker]

SHmarya, who musters every joule of energy he can find to attack and smear orthodox Jews, calls the kettle black.

SHmarya's argument, as usual, is also very silly and neglects most of the relevant issues. Even if Moroccan rabbis permitted swordfish, as they did locusts, it is still prohibited for Ashkenazim.

COnservative "rabbis" feel that the halacha prohibiting chametz even in minute amounts is "fanatical". They allow products known to contain chametz.

Conservative "rabbis" are not concerned with the halachos of who may be left alone with kosher meat.

Conservative "rabbis" are not concerned if a Jew cooks food on Shabbos (although the OU has acted badly in this area as well).

And the way the COnservative arrive at a policy is a joke that does not comport with Torah standards whatsoever. Someone brilliantly summed it up this way: My biggest problem with Conservative "psak" is the way it is established, i.e., through
highly politicized conferences of the RA that function along the lines of
the Democratic Party's Platform Committee."

First it was bogus kashrus standards, then it was welcoming open homos.

[Archie Bunker]

Rachel and others are mistaken if they think criticism of Conservative "rabbis" also applies equally to rank & file members of the movement. It does not. The duplicitous COnservative "leadership" knows better yet they choose to lead the masses astray.

The "all or nothing" propaganda was started in part by some COnservative "rabbis" who feel threatened. They also pull a stunt when they are afraid their members may become orthodox after coming in contact with orthodox Jews by acting as if all orthodox Jews are part of various "sects". They impart an ominous sounding tone to scare people into thinking "cult" or "Moonies", etc.

[nachos]

In heaven, Archie is just going to eat the salad!!!

Archie: I am sending some hogs to market tommorrow, so so if you eat any bacon in the next few days, it may have beenfrom my place!!! :)

[Shmarya]

Archie's litany of supposed Conservative wrongs with regard to kashrut are basically nothing.

Again, using Swordfish as an example, what we have is a s follows:

1. A psak by Ashkenazi haredi rabbis against swordfish, based on mistaken information.

2. A psak by Moroccan and North African rabbis (based on actual first hand information) that permits swordfish.

3. Ashkenazi communities (mostly in southern Europe) who ate swordfish until WW2.

4. Rishonim who ate Swordfish.

From this, Archie says it is forbidden for Ashkenazim to eat swordfish.

What Archie is, in effect, saying is that psak dinim based on incorrect data must be followed – even when there are other options to follow.

200 years ago, no rabbi worth his salt would have agreed with Archie.

But now halakha has become frozen, and Archie can claim Jews who follow legitimate halakhic opinions Are doing wrong.

As for minute amounts of hametz in food, perhpas Archie could give us a clear verifiable example while also citing the Conservative psak that permits it.

[Shmarya]

http://www.uscj.org/The_Rabbinical_Assem5815.html During the eight days of Pesah, hametz cannot lose its identity in an admixture. Therefore, the minutest amount of hametz renders the whole admixture hametz and its use on Pesah is prohibited. However, during the rest of the year, hametz follows the normal rules of admixture, i.e. it loses its identity in an admixture of one part hametz and sixty parts of non-hametz (batel be-shishim). This affords us the opportunity to differentiate between foods purchased before and during Pesah.

What follows is a general guideline. However, your rabbi should be consulted when any doubt arises. Kosher le-Pesah labels that do not bear the name of a rabbi or one of the recognized symbols of rabbinic supervision, or which are not integral to the package, should not be used without consulting your rabbi.…

The following processed foods (canned, bottled or frozen), require a kosher le-Pesah label if purchased during Pesah: milk, butter, juices, vegetables, fruit, milk products, spices, coffee, tea, and fish…Many people have humrot for Pesach that are much stricter than this.

But those are humrot, Archie, not halakhot.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Archie's litany of supposed Conservative wrongs with regard to kashrut are basically nothing.

Correct! As far as I know, the "issues" with kashruth decisions by the Conservative movement's law committee most commonly mentioned are swordfish, whether "soft cheese" requires supervision, and whether non-glatt meat is kosher. These are non-issues as far as I am concerned; they are matters of differing legal opinions that have taken place since the first days of writing codes.

[Reb Doniel]

Regarding swordfish- Orthodox Jews held by its kashrut for centuries. It appeared on the Agudat Ha Rabbanim's list of approved fish in 1933, and the Kneset Hagdola, R' Chaim Benveniste, paskened that one can eat "the fish with the sword" and that its scales fall off when the fish angrily shakes when coming out of the water. Rabbi Moshe Tendler conducted research and found the swordfish to have no scales; his opinion was accepted by Reb Moshe- he says that the Riv ageed with him, but the Rov's talmid muvhak, Rabbi Schachter, says that the Rov was matir it. The Tzitz Eliezer ossered it, but Rav Unterman paskened in Shvut Miyehudah that the fish has scales and that there has been a mesorah for at least 350 years allowing it. I don't think therefore that Conservative Jews are violating halacha when eating the swordfish, considering these shitos. I think this is a situation where it is better to be machmir, and I also respect the opinion of both R' Dr. Tendler and Rabbi Schachter.

Also, keep in mind that whenever the USCJ passed the most radical tshuvos, they never had the support of the JTS Gemara and Halacha scholars; this includes measures such as wallowing female rabbis, homosexual rabbinical students, driving on Shabbos, and other measures that have contributed to the Conservative movement's demise. And Archie, I heard this from my good friend Rabbi Avi Weiss; Rabbi Joel Roth and a few other traditionalists within JTS are in the same boat as many of the Orthodox rabbis who actually teach there and those scholars such as Louis Finkelstein and Louis Ginzberg who davened with a mechitza, were shomer shabbos, etc.

However, the issue here of course is the Rubashkin lack of yashrus. People don't seem to understand that the hechsher tzedek is not replacing kashrus, chas ve shalom. It is only being put on kosher products with certification from the accepted agencies- OU, OK, Star-K, CRC, etc.

In Los Angeles, they have a hechsher tzedek program, as well as in Yerushalayim, both of which are under Orthodox auspices.

In LA, it is called the Peulat Sachir initiative. In Israel, many have the Tav Hevrati ensuring that there is an upheld standard of yashrus. The hechsher tzedek is not a transgression or deviation from halacha or Jewish values. It is iinstead seeking to uphold Choshen Mishpat and the ideas embodied by Rav Yosef Breuer, whose essay I will publish below.

Glatt Kosher — Glatt Yoshor

The conscientious and minute observance of the laws of Kashruth belong to the sacred obligations to which we are to live up if our Jewish houses are to rise in purity before God and His Torah. Supplying our families with totally reliable foods is one of the major tasks a Kehilla has to fulfill.We may note with satisfaction that the supervision of our meat products from the time of Shechita until they reach the customer meets all the requirements of total Kashruth. This enables our Rabbinate to assume full personal responsibility for the reliability of our Kashruth.The concept “Glatt Kosher” refers to certain situations when an animal is rejected because of an existing “Sha’aloh” generally involving the lung — even if the halachic decision would be favorable. Just as all ethical strivings should extend beyond the prescribed boundaries — “lif’nim mi’shuras haDin” — so the practice should be adopted to declare only such meat as kosher that has not been involved in any kind of “Sha’aloh” (comp. Chulin 37b). Such practice would indeed deserve the title of “Glatt Kosher.”

A further comment: “Kosher” is intimately related to “Yoshor.” God’s Torah not only demands the observance of Kashruth and the sanctification of our physical enjoyment; it also insists on the sanctification of our social relationships. This requires the strict application of the tenets of justice and righteousness which avoid even the slightest trace of dishonesty in our business dealings and personal life.

God’s Torah not only demands of us to love our neighbor in that we concern ourselves with his welfare and property, but it insists further on a conduct of uncompromising straightness (”Yoshor”) which is inspired not only by the letter of the law but is guided by the ethical principle of honesty which, then, would deserve the honorable title of “Yeshurun.”

“He fears God who walks in uprightness” (Mishle 14:2).

We would welcome a campaign to link a drive for “Glatt Kosher” with an equally intensive one for “Glatt Yoshor.” This objective is given hopeful expression by the Prophet Zephaniah (3:13):

“The remnants of Israel will not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.”

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya & Neo-C should get their facts straight.

We do not know if the fish mentioned in Rishonim was actually the swordfish of today.

Some Acharonim also permit some sort of fish, most notably Rav Chaim Benvenisti who mentions "the fish with the sword" in Knesses haGedolah. Again, we do not know if it the same fish. If the Sefardic rabbis claim to have a tradition, then good for them. It would be the same reason why they can eat it as it is with locusts but prohibited for Ashkenazim.

And it was Moses Tendler of all people who researched this and found evidence that today's Swordfish is not the same fish. Rav Waldenberg agrees with him in Tzitz Eliezer.

Isaac Klein permitted it for the COnservative a decade after Tendler's research emerged. The COnservative have a pattern of finding the easy way out when fressers want to stuff their faces with game fish and caviar, which is why they also permit sturgeon. There is only one opinion in halacha that ever permitted sturgeon. The COnservative also latched on to a single minority opinion in the Rishonim, the Masas Binyamin, to allow spraying meat every few days instead of immediately salting it. There is a specific halacha that you are forbidden to constantly seek out minority opinions who are lenient, but that should be the biggest problem with the COnservative.

I will try looking for a linkable example with the chametz.

[Archie Bunker]

I had a hard time finding a Conservative temple that posts the Passover bulletin on their website but here goes.

http://www.beitrayim.org/synagogue/library/publications/Bimonthly_Bulletin_2005w_Passover.pdf

The Pesach guide here is approved by the RA. Despite the phony posturing by USCJ, there are items listed that are known to contain minute amounts of chametz.

Unsupervised butter is known to contain cultures & coloring derived from chametz.

Unsupervised milk is pasteurized on chametz equipment and the vitamins are made from chametz.

Unsupervised frozen vegetables are processed on the same equipment as chametz.

Kashering glass is forbidden for Ashkenazim.

Kitniyos are forbidden for most Ashkenazim.

[Archie Bunker]

R' Doniel, maybe you can speak for yourself, but any reliable orthodox rabbi I know is not "in the same boat" as Joel ROth & the JTS crowd.

[Shmarya]

Every example you have given is, according to halakha (as opposed to according to humrot) permitted to eat on Passover provided that are purchased before Passover.

[Archie Bunker]

"permitted to eat on Passover provided that are purchased before Passover"

Actually, that is true with vitamins (according to some opinions) and with ingredients that do not have actual substance.

It does NOT hold true with some of those items that can contain actual chametz fragments.

And I did not mention salt. They only have a problem with iodine and make no mention that many salts contain dextrose. While domestic dextrose is kitniyos, imported dextrose is actual chametz.

They also allow non-Pesach meat to be purchased even DURING Pesach when there is no question it comes in contact with chametz in many locations.

[Shmarya]

No, Archie, you're wrong.

The basic halakha is that all of those things purchased before Passover can be consumed on Passover because whatever hametz may be there is certainly batel.

That the humrot of some communities in Ashkenaz are now the Orthodox Ashenazic baseline does not make those humrot the actual halakhic baseline.

Further, and I realize you reject this, but the minhag America was Sefardi or Sefard-like until the late 1800s, and the shift to Ashkenazi was not, shall we say, done according to halakha.

[Archie Bunker]

I am also aware of an incident at one COnservative temple where they told everyone they may purchase seltzer DURING Pesach without any supervision whatsoever. The son of a scientist argued with them that he knows for a fact that some brands use carbon dioxide that is a by-product of chametz. They dismissed this as "fanatical".

[Archie Bunker]

Maybe Shmarya can explain how actual chometz substance present in some of those items are "nullified". For instance, pieces of pasta are known to sometimes get mixed up at factories with frozen vegetables.

He can't.

SHmarya also conveniently ignored non-Pesach issues I mentioned earlier that are halachos in Shulchan Aruch, yet thrown in the garbage heap by COnservative "rabbis".

[Shmarya]

Maybe Shmarya can explain how actual chometz substance present in some of those items are "nullified". For instance, pieces of pasta are known to sometimes get mixed up at factories with frozen vegetables.

He can't.

No, Archie. I can.

We don't pasken based on the unusual occurrence.

Finding a piece of pasta in a bag of frozen green beans is very rare, well less than rov, well less than 1/60. It's much closer to 1/500,000.

That's why raw unshelled nuts don't need a hechsher for Passover, even though there is a small chance a wheat-based sesame stick might end up in that bag.

[itchiemayer]

The conservative movement is dying anyway.
They get what they deserve.

[Reb Doniel]

I was referring to the Orthodox rabbis who are professors at JTS. The reason for this is that in America, if you are a scholar of Mechkar, for example, your options of getting hired are limited, and b'dieved, it is probably a better option to work at a Conservative place that had reasonable standards up until 25 years ago.

At its beginning, JTS was actually an Orthodox institution, with Sephardic hahamim, Chief Rabbi Hertz and others learning there.

In my eyes, Joel Roth and the professors at JTS, Hebrew Union College, etc. are no different than Jewish Studies professors in any other college or university. They contribute to Jewish scholarship and knowledge but lack the authority to pasken shailos and offer halacha le maaseh. However, that doesn't mean that what the Rabbinical Assembly, Solomon Bennett Freehof, etc. wrote is off limits; it is jsut that one should only read these things for an academic knowledge. Artscroll-style books provide what is considered contemporary psak and the halacha le maaseh.

[Reb Doniel]

Also, Archie, I;d like to see the Conservative tshuva on melicha. Is this online?

[Archie Bunker]

Since SHmarya believes so strongly that "minhag America" is somehow Sefardic, I assume then he would never eat in a restaurant or elsewhere unless a Jew actually cooked the food instead of relying on a pilot light leniency.

His friends who often break out with snorts, grunts & guffaws, have an appropriate opportunity to chime in now, unless their feet are in their mouths as is Shmarya.

[Archie Bunker]

Sigh.

SHmarya, why don't you learn some basics in halacha and food processing before jumping in to argue when you have no idea what you are talking about?

You are comparing apples & oranges. Raw unshelled nuts (only with no additives present) are not processed in factories on the same production lines as chametz. Frozen veggies are.

Furthermore, the concept of batel beshishim only applies to a particular food mixture. It does not apply to overall circumstances like you goofily claim. I had assumed you at least knew THAT much.

As far as salting meat, I don't know if it is an official Conservative decision with the added pompous ceremonial rites but a Conservative Jewish caterer in the Midwest, Simon Kohn, was using this loophole. When he tried getting the contract with a major airline, he was beaten back by orthodox rabbis. Simon's son was also once caught by a rabbi who alleges he saw him throwing table salt on a large side of beef. When the rabbi inquired what he was doing, Kohn Jr replied he was "salting" the meat.

[Archie Bunker]

"At its beginning, JTS was actually an Orthodox institution"

Oh please. And Karl Marx's grandfather was an orthodox rabbi. We're not dealing with ancient history here from more than a century ago.

"that doesn't mean that what the Rabbinical Assembly, Solomon Bennett Freehof, etc. wrote is off limits; it is jsut that one should only read these things for an academic knowledge."

Ummm, no. Freehof was Reform actually and whether COnservative or Reform, it is forbidden for the layman to read the works of heretics.

[Reb Doniel]

Don't you know that Henry Pereira Mendes, the haham of the Spanish-Portuguese synagogue was both a musmach and an instructor there, Joseph Hertz, the Chief Rabbi of the British Empire and the mechaber of the most widely used Chumash in American synagogues before Artscroll, and others such as Sabato Morais and R'Henry Schneeburger, who was the first American Orthodox Rabbi to have a university doctorate (he was a true "herr doktor rabbiner" of his time) were Orthodox who went to JTS in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Most of the founding members of the OU were also JTS-affiliated at the time.

Jeffrey Gurock, considered one of the leading scholars of American Orthodoxy, writes about this, as does Rabbi Dr. Bernard Drachman in The Unfailing Light, page 181, and my good friend, Rabbi Dr. Aharon Rakeffet Rothkoff, from whom I have learned so much, on pages 102-114 in his biography on Rabbi Dr. Bernard Dov Revel.

JTS didn't turn Conservative until the 1930s and 1940s; the Agudah HaRabbonim wouldn't accept American rabbonim at the time. They only wanted Yiddish-speaking, shtetl rabbis from the old country and this unfortunately strengthened the Conservative Movement. One is certainly reminded of the aphorism that many times, we make our own monsters; the Agudah's rejection of JTS certainly achieved that effect. See the Gemara in Snahedirn 99a, where we are told that because rabbis rejected Timna bas Lotan for conversion, she became a concubine of Eliphaz and ultimately produced Amalek. I am not comparing the Conservative Movement to Amalek, but it is clear that this Gemara is telling us that we need to be cuatious, lest we make our own monsters.

Archie, your approach is harshly close-minded. That is like saying one cannot become a doctor or an attorney because the textbooks were written by "heretics."

Freehof's writings reflect his voluminous knowledge of responsa and sifrei halacha. Of course, there is a major difference between knowing and doing, but non-Orthodox writings, if written with a discerning/critical eye, just as one should read anything that is not written from a traditionally Jewish standpoint, can be beneficial. This is true of any text; the hallmark of a mensch and a chochom is to do this, following the dictum of Ben Zoma in Pirkei Avos: Who is wise? One who learns from every man.

Clearly, you reject the model of open-minded, tolerant Judaism. You cannot simply write off 90% of Jews in America becaise they do not go to Orthodopx synagogues. As R'Aharon Lichtenstein says, it is better for a Jew in the middle of Iowa to go to drive to his temple on Shabbos than for him not to have any connection to his religion whatsoever.

When you get to be my age, you will learn this. Wisdom comes with age, my friend. The hubris of youth will wear off, along with the intolerance and hard-headed stubbornness it breeds. It is a shame, but you are one of the most stubborn people I have ever seen, and it won't do you any good. You trying to disprove factual evidence and showing a lack of kavod ha torah will not lead you to acquire torah, nor will it lead you into gan eden. Try taking the eitzah of Ben Zoma. Think about it, live it and embody it.

That being said, I won;t post here anymore. Shmarya should ban you, Archie, and all others who demonstrate intolerance. I thought that by posting on a blog that is known to be "anti-Orthodox" I would be able to show that Orthodoxy is beautiful, true and not the stereotypical unethical, cruel, close-monded and harsh authoritarian cult-like dogma that many Haredim would like it to be. I thought that by trying to express the opinions of our gedolim and chachomim, I would have been able to disspell many of these misconceptions and prejudices, but Archie, you have gotten in the way of this and you have turned off countless Jews to the beauty of torah with your hubris and carelessness. Instead of being a kiddush HaShem, you have made a chillul HaShem and have engaged in the worst aveiros or loshon hara and motzi shem ra. You have shown a lack of kovod ha torah, and most severely, you have proven yourself to be an enemy of Klal Yisroel and Our G-d. Shame on you. You are nothing more than a punk, a shaigetz and a disgrace.

[Reb Doniel]

And, for the record, I am no layman.

I am a rabbi with yoreh yoreh yadin yadin semicha. I have learned through Bavli and Yerushalmi more times than I care to remember, and I have learned 21 masechtos be iyun over the years, ever since becoming Orthodox many years ago. I am also baki b'poskim, and I have great expertise in Jewish history, Machshava- Mussar, Philosophy, Aggadata and Drush, Chassidus and Tanach. I also am baki b'mishpat Ivri and I have learned in both yeshivos and in institutions of academic Jewish studies.

[Archie Bunker]

Reb Doniel, are you happy now that you got all those insults off your chest? You forgot to blurt out that my mother wears Army boots as well.

JTS became Conservative much earlier than you claim it did. But that's no surprise since your creed at YCT think that even Conservative apikorsim are still valid "rabbis". The COnservative are properly compared to Amalek as there is also the metaphoric Amalek among us weakening Torah observance that we are commanded to fight.

Stop blaming the Charedim for every evil on Earth or you are no better than Shmarya. And that is a lie that Agudas Harabbonim only approved rabbis just off the boat from Europe as there were some American yeshivos producing graduates as well. It served well to distance the COnservative. Embracing them would have brought us all down. Meanwhile, their dying movement is gasping it's last breaths while it puts on a sideshow of various antics in a futile attempt to make itself relevant.

You can keep your speech about your great wisdom and mastery of poskim as you have missed the boat. There are men much older and wiser than yourself who are not sold on YCT style hefkerus.

Over and out to you, Dayan Daniel, Sinai, Oker Harim, Raish Kol Bnei Galusa.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

As far as salting meat, I don't know if it is an official Conservative decision with the added pompous ceremonial rites but a Conservative Jewish caterer in the Midwest, Simon Kohn, was using this loophole. When he tried getting the contract with a major airline, he was beaten back by orthodox rabbis. Simon's son was also once caught by a rabbi who alleges he saw him throwing table salt on a large side of beef. When the rabbi inquired what he was doing, Kohn Jr replied he was "salting" the meat.

Is there no end to your fairy tales of Jewish horrors? How sad it must be to live your life believing these absurd lies and using them as the basis and fuel for your hatred of most Jews.

[Archie Bunker]

This is no fairy tale. Whoever was at the local Vaad and the Star-K about 22 or 23 years ago knows the details of this story.

The only absurdity is the bad behavior of your fellow COnservative scam artists.

[Itchiemayer]

The Kohn's story hits close to home, so I will look into that one. Kohn's is a glatt kosher deli in St. Louis that is frequented by Jews of all denominations, and many non-Jews. Many a black-hatter has bought lunch there. Kohn's also does Bar mitzvahs, weddings, etc.. of the orthodox variety. It is true the family is not shomer shabbos, but there is a mashgiach on site every minute the store is open. I have a friend who works for the Vaad, and his father was the head of the vaad, I believe, during the time frame in question. On a side note, The current head of the St. Louis Vaad is Rabbi Zuravin who was one of the 25 to visit Rubashkin in prison. Anyhow, I intend to find out and pass it along.

[Itchiemayer]

R' Doniel - so we should censor any viewpoints which upset your sensibilities? I guess you are for the (un)fairness doctrine, eh?

R' Doniel Obama.

[Archie Bunker]

Many Black hatters ate there even then because it was the only place that served as a sit down restaurant and full service deli / take out. They relied on a pathetic system of the mashgichim beating back the Kohns with a figurative fly swatter every time they misbehaved and issuing lame threats in Jackie Mason style pantomime.

Rabbi Rivkin was in charge of the Vaad in those days. He was not a very strong figure to begin with and the 2 bakeries under the Vaad operated on Shabbos.

The airline was either US Air or Frontier and I'm told Rabbi Heinemann's people convinced them to forget about using Simon Kohn.

[Itchiemayer]

Do you know how Rabbi Rivkin ended up in St. Louis in 1948? The 7th Rabbi of Lubavitch sent him. I do remember the good ol' days of Harav Menachem Tzvi Eichenstein, Z"L.
Arch, I'm impressed with your knowledge of St. Louis Kashrus history!

[Itchiemayer]

Correction - the 6th Rabbi of Lubavitch told Rabbi Rivkin to come to St. Louis, as he was a top talmud of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

[Archie Bunker]

Rabbi Rivkin was also the son of the Torah Vodaas rosh yeshiva.

[Itchiemayer]

That would not happen today - a Lubavitcher Rabbi in Torah Vodaas.

[Reb Doniel]

Also, the Masas Binyomin is not a Rishon.

R' Binyamin Slonick lived in Poland and died in the year 1619, making him an Acharon.

Archie, you stated that "The COnservative also latched on to a single minority opinion in the Rishonim, the Masas Binyamin, to allow spraying meat every few days instead of immediately salting it. "