Guest Post: Is Intermarriage Really Bad For Jews?

Details:

The following is a guest post from a person who identifies as an Orthodox Jew.

Glossary: "Gerim" means "converts." "Geirus" means "conversion."

As always, guest posts reflect the opinions of their author, not necessarily the opinions of the blog owner.

Is Intermarriage Really Such a Bad Thing for Jews?

DNA evidence has uncovered something perhaps shocking about our Ashkenazic Eastern European ancestors: they married shiksas AND nobody seemed to have a problem with it.

As David Goldstein put it:

[some] Jewish men . . . travel[ed] long distances to establish small Jewish communities [by themselves]. They would settle in new lands and, if unmarried,take local women for wives

Simply put, DNA studies on Ashkenazim have consistently shown that males show a strong genetic affinity (similar mutations on the Y chromosome) with other Jewish males, no matter where they live, whereas Ashkenazic females do not show any genetic affinity with other Jewish females.

Hillel Halkin, in his article in Commentary Magazine Jews and their DNA, comments on the puzzling disparity in the distribution patterns of Jewish Y-chromosome and mitochondrial (female)DNA:

There is no doubt that statistically (and only statistically: it is important to keep in mind that any randomly chosen Jewish individual may prove an exception to the rule), Jewish males with antecedents in such widely separated places as Yemen, Georgia, and Bukhara in Central Asia are far more likely to share similar Y-chromosome DNA with one another than with Yemenite, Georgian, or Bukharan non-Jews. Jewish females from the same backgrounds, on the other hand, yield opposite results: their mitochondrial DNA has markedly less resemblance to that of Jewish women from elsewhere than it does to that of non-Jewish women in the countries their families hailed from

Halkin therefore concludes:

Presumably, these adventurous bachelors setting out (perhaps on business ventures) for far lands could not persuade Jewish women to come with them, or else they traveled to their destinations with no intention of staying there. In the absence of rabbis to perform conversions, they married local women who, while consenting to live as Jews, were not halakhically Jewish. By halakhic standards, therefore, their descendants were not Jewish, either, even though their Jewishness was not challenged by the rabbinical authorities. Although such communities must, in their first generations, have known the truth about themselves, this does not appear to have bothered them or anyone else very much.

Jewish men courting and marrying non-Jewish women is nothing new. In addition to our ancestors having done that (at least in the first generation(s)Tanach is replete with accounts of kings and commoners taking non-Jewish spouses. Of Jacob's 12 sons, at least 8 married out of their clan. King Solomon was criticized for taking many wives, HOWEVER, this stinging criticism is followed by the explication that his wives were idol-worshippers who perverted his heart against Torah. The same goes for Isaac's exhortation to his son Jacob not to take a wife from among the Canaanites. It is pretty clear that the Patriarchs hated the Cannanites (and the other pagans) BECAUSE they engaged in horrible idol worship (child sacrifice etc.) NOT because they "weren't Jewish".

In addition, it is pretty clear that Jewish ancestry (as well as tribal status) was once determined by the father and not by the mother. The "maternal ancestry rule" was instituted by later Rabbinic authorities for political and religious reasons (the Jewish exilarch Bustenai, for example, had no qualms about taking a Persian wife. It is pretty clear that she did not "officially" convert. The resulting feud among the Rabbis whether the children of that union were Jewish or not is an indication, that even among the Rabbis of that time, the "maternal descent rule" was not a unanimous opinion).

Which brings me to my point:

Many non-Jewish women (and men) in the United States express strong interest in Judaism. This interest often stems from their quest to find the ancestral roots of their own faith. However, very often this interest remains only an interest BECAUSE they are intimidated by the current geirus process. Some might argue that this is a good thing but I disagree. The notion that we need to dissuade geirim from converting is an erroneous one (such was the opinion of many Rabbis, particularly Sephardic Rabbis like Rabbi Benzion Uziel and Rabbi Yisrael Hazan).

I also think (and this is only an opinion) that the ancient Jewish reluctance to accept geirim was more pronounced for male geirim rather than female geirim. One example of this are the ancient Moabites and Ammonites. The Torah clearly prohibits any marriage among them, however the Rabbis have relaxed this stricture and ruled that the prohibition only applied to marrying the males among them and not the females (how else to explain the story of Ruth the Moabite). We also see numerous instances in tanach of Jewish men marrrying non-Jewish women, however we see very few examples of Jewish women marrying non-Jewish men and when we do, it is usually referred to in a negative context.

A quick glance through tanach (particularly the story of Ruth) would indicate that the current geirus process is completey superflouous and even anti-Torah.

If a non-Jewish women is willing to give up her faith in Jesus and accept the law of Moses, SHE IS JEWISH. No Rabbis need be involved, except to guide and teach.

The benefits we would get from accepting non Jewish females into the Jewish people are manifold.

Jon Entine in his Abraham's Children mentions that Jewish genetic disease are at an all time low and attributes this fact- to among other things- the rising intermarriage rate among Jews.

I want to make clear that I am an Orthodox Jew.

I am not proposing intermarriage at all.

What I am proposing, is making the geirus process for non-Jewish females a lot easier. This would eliminate the problem to begin with.

Related Posts: 1, 2, 3.

Comments

[Equal Ti me]

--Here is a good explanation of what's going on here,--

I know exactly what is going on - I am just a bit opffended that he is masquerading as a rabbi to do it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Itchie, you are wise enough to know that statistics can be presented any way you want to.

The most important statistic to me is the number 52. That is my number of years on this planet, observing the evolution of Judaism in the metro-NY/NJ area. I see decades of ongoing polarization and isolation self-inflicted by the black hat crowd, and a large mass of the rest of us Jews of various backgrounds, interested in Judaism to various degrees, but adamant about not wanted to be what we see orthodoxy as being.

[Archie Bunker]

Yochanan, the Sages of the Talmud write what I said specifically. Also Kush comes from Canaan as stated in the Torah who Abraham says in the Torah none of his descendents should marry. (got that Shmarya?)

""You complain that she's black; I'll make you even whiter!"

There are plenty of Blacks who try to make themselves whiter out of shame. Whether it's complex medical procedures a la Michael Jackson or the ridiculous belief that suntan lotion does the trick. Charlie Rangel was once caught in an audit misusing taxpayer funds while flying first class by ordering everything off the cart, including suntan lotion. The WSJ mockingly "speculated" that Rangel may have applied it to his chicken cordon bleu to make sure it did not overcook.

[Archie Bunker]

Translation of WoolSilkCotton:

Hey guys, I am a failed BT Lubavitcher who left the fold to have sex with my Irish Catholic girlfriend and since orthodox Jews follow the Torah that classiifies this as a cardinal sin, I hate their guts and wish they would just become extinct, even though that's exactly where I'm headed.

[Archie Bunker]

"No one is arguing the rapes"

YOU WERE until Yochanan spoke up and stopped your retarded denials.

I also never said spoke of "entirety". You did as a twisted effort to make me look stupid.

I may not be a "big enough man" but you are the SMALLEST man to ever "debate" here.

[Archie Bunker]

"interested in Judaism to various degrees"

Like WSC having sex with non-Jewish women & pretending to be interested.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Equal baby, I agree with you, but in the case of an internet troll, any attention he gets satisfies him. Any response to him, no matter how well argued,validates the drek he posts. The troll only seeks attention; he doesn't care if you agree with him or not- in fact, he relishes it when you don't agree with him.

That being said, I salute your ongoing efforts to disqualify the troll at every opportunity. The vast majority of us here know that he is bogus; in fact, I am starting to wonder if it's really Shmarya in disguise, pulling everyone's leg! That would explain it nicely!

[ML]

Archie,

I know you think you're doing a service (somehow) and that you've got it all. I know you think that your words are only 'hurting' people who deserve it anyway.

But this is a blog. These posts of yours will be here forever. Forever.

Now if it was just a few 'liberal' who's goat you were out to get, that's one thing.

But for every good person who is hurt by what you write, you will have to answer for it to the Almighty. And since the totality of your postings here, which will remain forever, is quite large, you will likely be spending all of HaOlam HaBa answering for why you chose to hurt so many people.

Your hatred, racism, and general attitude toward fellow Jews and fellow humans is baffling. You don't have to be mean. You don't have to act and write like an arrogent jerk, but you choose to do so.

As long as you remember that everything you write here G-d reads, then fine go ahead. Everyone who is turned away from G-d by what you write, everyone who is hurt and harmed by what you write, you will be held accountable. Not by me, by by G-d.

Be careful with your speech and with your pen.

I know that you will attack me personally, I'm okay with that. I know that you will question my observance, instead of looking within. I'm okay with that too.

Just ask yourself why? And remember, G-d knows the answer.

[Itchiemayer]

ML - I do agree we should be careful with our speech and our pen. Nevertheless, noone should turn away from God because of something they read on this or any blog.

I do applaud Shmarya's no censorship policy.

[Archie Bunker]

While no one is perfect and I have gone a little over the line sometimes with certain posters, I have no misgivings slamming jerks like Shmarya & WSC and other heretics who hate orthodox Jews with a passion and get perverse satisfaction from smearing them.

I also have no plans on apologizing to figures like Rangel when all I do is repeat exposes already published about them.

"ML" .... the 3rd alter ego for Maven / alternative childcare?

[WoolSIlkCotton]

ML, the troll is the perfect voice for black hat Judaism. He confirms what the rest of us always suspected the black hats were thinking about us.
Maybe it's good to have a daily reminder of the hate and ugliness that lurks in the mind beneath so many of the black hats, and that's why Shmarya lets him keep belching.

[Archie Bunker]

COnsidering the hatred that WoolSilk starts spewing first, anyone who is the target of it would have to be out of their minds not to hate him back. In his case, the target of his deep hatred is orthodox Jews for the reasons mentioned.

The guy is so consumed & twisted that every post for a while recently he repeated a false story he concocted that the majority of men in the closest orthodox outpost near his home are hanging out at porno shops.

Very mature I will add for the grown baby WSC who is 52 years old.

[Itchiemayer]

WSC - That last comment was as hateful a comment as I have seen on this blog. I respect your right to write it, but I just thought I would point out what could be perceived as hypocritical.

[ML]

Keep convincing yourself, Archie. Keep deflecting. It's all about someone else, right? It's all THEIR fault, not yours.

Will G-d accept those excuses? Will your children?

And no, I have no other alter egos. Nice try.

[Walking Along the Shore]

Even if the majority of European DNA is traced to before the Crusades, there were still proper conversions before that time just as their were rapes before such time. There were Viking marauders, highway robbers and local ruffians

This article is talking about the genetic contributions of non-Jewish (or non-Jewish born) women.

If your proposed answer were correct, then the Y-chromosomal DNA similarity between Jewish males world wide would not occur.

If that many gentile marauders and Crusaders raped to the degree that Ashkenazic Jewish women differ in their DNA from other Jewish women, then, seeing as the rapists were males and the contributors of the Y-chomosome, Ashkenazic Jewish males would have substantially differing Y-chromosomes compared to other Jewish males. However, they do not.

This, therefore, points to the non-Jewish influence on Ashkenazic genetic ancestry being largely one-sided, falling on the side of it being mostly non-Jewish females.

[face]

My dream is to dance at Shmarya's Chasuna at the backyard BBQ in Compton.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie:

1. That is one interpretation of the psuk. Even I can tell it's not pshut pshat. Moshe miscegenated, unless the marriage wasn't consummated, which is unlikely. It was a lawful marriage I'm sure- no biggie.

2. Herzl was a tinok shenishba, raised w/o any Jewish education. Uganda and Madagascar were supposed to be temporary refuges. He visited Eretz, and wrote about it in Altneuland. It is a chareidi error to say he thought Africa was as good as Eretz. When he was older, he became a semi-baal teshuvah. Some Modern Orthodox rabbis befriended him, and he started goig to shul regularly and learning. Alas, it was too late; he was so exhausted with getting apathetic Jews and hostile Turks to be enthused about Israel that he died young. Had he lived, I am sure he would have become more observant. But chareidim continue to denegrate him- in Hebrew!

Thanks for keeping the tone civil. You have always been a gentleman to me, even when we disagree. Be the bigger man when others are playing you.

[Equal T ime]

--YOU WERE until Yochanan spoke up--

No, Archie - that simply isn't true. There is no post in this thread or any other that you can reference where I deny that any rapes took place.

--I may not be a "big enough man" but you are the SMALLEST man to ever "debate" here.--

And again - by ducking issues and relying solely on personal attacks, you prove many of my points.

The least being that you are lying when you claim to be an Orthodox rabbi - because no legitimate OJ rabbi would act as shamefully as you do - no legitimate OJ rabbi would be unable to produce sources when challenged - no legitimate OJ rabbi would engage in the character assassination that you engage in at the absolute expense of any and all discussion.

I have in the past jokingly prodded you by accusing you of being a liberal Jew. I genuinely think you are. A liberal Jew creating an ugly character that everyone reading will associate falsely with Orthodoxy.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie: We disagree like oil and water, yet you don't slime me, and I don't slime you. I am just as much a heretic as WSC or anyone else. Why not extend the same meschlichtkeit to them you extend me ESPECIALLY if you don't think they'll reciprocate. Then they might think: "Maybe there's something to right-Orthodox Judaism. That Archie is such a mensch!"

I know you can do it.

[Archie Bunker]

Shore,

I had missed that it was a female specific chromosome and I will take your word for it. Even still, there were plenty of proper female converts as well.

In one very large case, the entire Khazar Kingdom converted. After massacres by Genghis Khan and his horde, the remnants of this community settled in Eastern Europe.

[Archie Bunker]

Yochanan, I can assure you that although that is not the only pshat, there is NO opinion or pshat that Moshe Rabeinu went anywhere near that Black woman. Go through the 100s of commentaries and you will not find it anywhere. And the reason is because of Kush's lineage.

And I doth protest that you put yourself in the same boat as the others. You are a baal madreiga and light years beyond them.

I think that you have not finished your journey in learning about Judaism and in stark contrast to the others, you do not despise orthodox Jews with a hatred that seems irrational, yet which is very malevolently rational & calculated.

[Archie Bunker]

Unequal slime, your dishonest word games are really boring. You need a makeover.

[Archie Bunker]

The problem with Herzl until the end is his idea of a paradoxical secular Zionism as well as Socialist "utopia" that goes against everything in the Torah.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Herzl thought that out of ignorance, not malice. As he got older, he began to appreciate religion more, and the role it has played in keeping our people together. That said, I don't think he would have wanted a theocracy, because he wanted a Jewish State for all, not just the Orthodox.

And thanks for your kind words. One catches flies with honey, not vinegar.

[Dr. Dave]

Archie et al.

Once upon a time, a religious Jew was known as an "ehrlicher" yid. Now he is "frum", and that, unfortunately,has made all the difference in the world.

[Chicago Sam]

I find it amazing how the zealots among us are so willing to carte blanche designate the rabbis who serve non-Orthodox synagogues as Apikorsim (a term these folks have yet to define in non-circular words).

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities; I suppose the zealots would prefer that either (1)these synagogues be all frum (2) or that these synagogues simply assimilate and disappear from Jewish life altogether.

Haredi Jews owe these "Apikorsim" a debt of gratitude for keeping Judaism intact within their communities, for it ought to be obvious even to the most dim-witted among the non-OJ zealots, the rabbanim are doing a great service for all Israel.

Let's hear it for religious pluralism! BTW, the Haredi hegemony in Israel is soon about to dissolve once the new Israeli govt is established--and when that happens, the Haredi political element of Israel will lose their political power; oh well ...

[the Heilige Rebbe of Otisville]

Maybe there's something to right-Orthodox Judaism. That Archie is such a mensch!"

Would not happen, Shmarya likes him here because he proves his view of haredi Jews as small mind bigots and crooks. If someone like rabbi Yakov Horowitz was posting here, Shmarya would not know what to do

[Simon Rose]

There was NO conversion process in the Torah or Tanach

Conversion was achieved through naturalization of women or men coming into contact with the Hebrews or Israelites through marriage.

The fact is the Rabbi's sect created this whole " the mother must be Jewish" and strict conversion processes etc...

Even Ruth is proof that simple acceptance of Jewish customs in the basic sense was enough to be a Jew or part of the tribe.

IMO the Jews need to accept as many people who would like to be part of our people and will follow basic Jewish life styles and basic religious tenants, another words you don't need to be Haredi or Orthodox to be a legit Jew.

[Chicago Sam]

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities; I suppose the zealots would prefer that either (1)these synagogues be all frum (2) or that these synagogues simply assimilate and disappear from Jewish life altogether.>>

I forgot to add that most of the outer Jewish communities would not ever want to be frum, so assimilation is the only alternative--the real issue is that of autonomy, a reality that Haredi wish to snuff out in their dreams and political machinations.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Dr. Dave | February 18, 2009 at 06:20 PM++

Years ago, my parents told me the same thing about life in pre-war Eastern Europe.
A respected religious Jew was called 'ehrlich', and a sleazy religious Jew was called 'frum'.
I guess some things haven't changed.

[Dave Marshall]

Yochanan and Neo, thanks for your support.
Itchie, you are so stridently denouncing my ideas- quote: "I DON'T WANT A WATERED-DOWN JEWISH PEOPLE"- in capital letters, yet already ! Sure, you'll get a very "concentrated" Jewish people- an over-worked group of possibly 2 to 3 million Modern Orthodox and about 1 million Haredi quasi-beggars. Is that what you really want? It's your choice. G-d helps those who help themselves.
I am telling you for absolute certain that those Modern Orthodox are going to get very fed up in a few years of supporting about 1 million Haredi quasi-beggars.
Archie, you put up a straw man about the American Conservative movement's acceptance of gay ordination. I repeatedly said that I deplore and deeply regret the American Conservative movement's gutlessness on the issue of Jewish family values, and caving in to political correctness. However there is still Israeli Masorti, South American Masorti, and Modern Orthodox.
I think you and Itchie are so comfortable with the present situation of the Jewish people, and so happy with the supposed "quality instead of quantity argument" that you are failing to understand, if we don't encourage and talk to those non-Jews who are interested in converting to Judaism, we're going to be a shrinking group. Do you not understand the word "shrinking"?
We're not talking about stable numbers here, we're talking about shrinking.
I throw out the challenge to anyone on this website. If you are interested in the growth of the Jewish people, please help me and e-mail me at superdave8002@hotmail.com and we will solve this problem, with G-d's help, of course. Because G-d helps those who help themselves, not people who sit on their behinds.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Chicago Sam, good points. Most of us non-ghetto Jews just don't like being told what to do.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Chicago Sam, good points. Most of us non-ghetto Jews just don't like being told what to do.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 18, 2009 at 07:20 PM

"Breathe!"

Simon: If chareidi standards were in place in biblical times, we'd be Ruthless.

Chicago: Given the choice of all or nothing, most people take nothing.

Dave: I think it will 3 million beggars and less than a million MO, because their kids are taught and indoctrinated by chareidim and their pulpits are increasingly manned by such. It's MO's own fault for chosing Ortho-yuppism over Jewish skills.

[WoolSilkCotton]

YL, excellent puns and bon mots throughout the day!

I will indeed breathe, but with official protest that I am doing it on my own accord, and not because someone told me to do so.

[Archie Bunker]

Sam, you are out to lunch and sadly full of hatred for orthodox Jews while you kiss the derrieres of heretics.

Now I finally understand the concept of "pluralism" touted by YCT.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave Marshall, all the points made to you obviously flew right over your head. I just wish you knew enough that you wouldn't waste your time with that futile pipe dream.

[Archie Bunker]

Simon Rose, you are dead wrong. Sadly secular Jews like yourself falsely claim that every bit of the Oral Torah transmitted to Moses at Sinai was "made up by rabbis".

[Archie Bunker]

Regarding Rabbi Horowitz, he is very mellow but would still be attacked and mocked by some of the lowlives here while he just went about his business of being a nice guy believer in G-d.

People in his position who hold a pulpit and/or major office at an organization must refrain from public shows of putting the scum in their place. I have no such restrictions.

[Equal Ti me]

--Unequal slime, your dishonest word games are really boring.--

Coming from you - that really says something.

You can't find the post where I made the claim you accuse me of (perhaps, because said post does not exist?) so again, you resort to name calling.

Someone above wrote referring to you - "in fact, I am starting to wonder if it's really Shmarya in disguise, pulling everyone's leg!".

I'd like to think this isn't the case - but again, your behavior is simply not that of an Orthodox rabbi - or ANY rabbi, and it seems very VERY clear that whoever you are, your goal is not to argue, but to stain Orthodox Judaism.

[Dave Marshall]

Archie, I fully understood the points you made. I regard your last posting as a kind of "shoot the messenger" tactic.
You have never once addressed the shrinking demographics of Jews as a whole.
I also fully understand that you are deeply scared of promoting Judaism. You hide this deep fear behind all kinds of rationalizations supposedly based on the most perfect form of Judaism known ie. your form. In other words it's "my way or the highway". I bet even if we could get millions of converts to submit to the most strict form of Orthodoxy, you would still find fault. Why. Because you are fearful.
I regard your last statement as tantamount to an ad hominem attack.
I will not waste my time, nor yours further discussing. I am absolutely convinced that I am right, and that you are wrong.
G-d willing, we will both be alive 50 years from now, and we'll see who's right.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Simon Rose, you are dead wrong. Sadly secular Jews like yourself falsely claim that every bit of the Oral Torah transmitted to Moses at Sinai was "made up by rabbis".

Not every bit, just most bits, and then was transmitted by, among others, R. Meir - the son of a GER. We'll never know, because if the written Torah comes to us in the mangled state as we know it, all the more so for oral teachings. So what? The Sages were not concerned with this litmus test of faith that you propose - they cared about things that mattered: understanding halacha that would work for the Jewish People. Something that is, sadly, a lost tradition for those like you.

[Archie Bunker]

Neo really has a knack for uttering misnomers that epitomize pot calls the kettle black.

Here goes again this smug COnservative heretic lecturing religious Jews about "mangling" Torah and "lost" tradition. As Tiggr would say, that's what the Conservative do best.

And it's precisely for these reasons that their offspring will one day be known as Neo-Conserva-Goys as they will feel no compunction marrying out of the faith and becoming forever "lost" indeed.

[Itchiemayer]

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities, so sayeth Chitown Sam.

Whatever it is they are keeping alive, I would not call it Judaism. There is only one Judaism, and that is Torah Judaism, which requires shabbos observance, kashrus observance, taharas mishpocha, no gay marriage, no inter-marriage and many other issues on which the other branches are clearly lacking any Torah foundation.

Of course, I agree that many of their constituents are Jewish, but these apikoris Rabbis are giving them a false idea of what the Torah is.

I was at a baby naming of a goyishe baby (don't ask), and the woman reform Rabbi, well known here, "Rabbi" Susan Talve was quoting the Ba'al Shem Tov. My thoughts were that she should quote the Reform gedolim as the BST would be turning over in his grave at being quoted in this setting. I kind of doubt they have their own "gedolim".

By the way, some may resent that I put "Rabbi" with respect to a non-orthodox one. That is because a Rabbi is a teacher, and one who teaches things which are false cannot have that title. Kind of like I would write "Rabbi" Sholom Rubashkin.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Itchie: As an ex-Reform Jew, I am not thrilled with that ideology either. However, given the choice of all or nothing, most people prefer nothing. At least they're not joining churches, or becoming atheists, which is what would happen in all probability. If someone tried to shove Orthodoxy down my throat, I would have ran the other way. Although I'm not really Orthodox, I lean towards it, because I came to it on my own. If we didn't have a Reform Temple to go to (which used the Hertz Chumash, which I read while bored during services) paradoxically (no pun intended, for once) I never would have stepped foot in an Orthodox shul.

[itchiemayer]

Yochanan HaLevi - I understand. However, the reform and conservative movements are a huge reason why Jews are becoming unaffiliated, intermarrying, etc.. Clearly they are not nurturing Jewish neshomas. If the reform and conservative movements had a track record of keeping their members within the faith, marrying within the faith, then I would be much more tolerant of them. However, the opposite is true. For every one like you who it did light a spark which caused you to seek further, there are many more that were raised in reform or conservative temples and either unaffiliate, intermarry, both, or just are uninspired Jewishly. I think those movements do far more harm than good. By the way, I wonder how many temples would use a Hertz Chumash today. On a side note, I have a cousin who married a non-jewish man. Their daughter, obviously a Jew, had her bas mitzva recently in a reform temple so I did not attend (it was out of town so I got out of it easily). Anyhow, my gift to her was a Stone chumash in hopes that she would read it and a spark would be lit. I realize there is a good chance it will remain on the shelf, but you never know.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Whatever it is they are keeping alive, I would not call it Judaism. There is only one Judaism, and that is Torah Judaism, which requires shabbos observance, kashrus observance, taharas mishpocha, no gay marriage, no inter-marriage and many other issues on which the other branches are clearly lacking any Torah foundation.

Really? "Torah Judaism"? So, I can have multiple wives? And, if I want to accuse her of adultery - a rather clever way of getting out of paying for divorce per the ketubah - I can make her endure the ritual of Sota? We can add some slaves to the mix here are well - that should make for some interesting changes around the household.

Hint: "Torah Judaism" died with the sadducees, and good riddance. We practice "Rabbinic Judaism", that while based on Torah, most assuredly has changed and progressed. It's a good thing, really.

[PIshPosh]

God gave Torah at Har Sinai, he did not give Moshe Rabbeinu Judaism. We alreay know that since the nations are mixed up that you cant tell who falls under the ban of intermarriage and who dosent. How many so called Jews are actually the descendants of non jews? Plenty including even the pious ones.
Some of our greatest ancestors have come from a non Israelite heritage and Judaism, the bastardization of Torah and the self righteous proclamations of the Perushim does not make it right in every thing that it says is what the Torah wants you to do.

[Archie Bunker]

Neo, are you the COnservative flag bearer? You've got all their talking points to twist Torah out of context down to a tee.

ANd you are either a liar or a blithering ignorant idiot with almost everything you say. A woman does not become a Sotah so easily based on someone's say so. And that's just one example.

[Archie Bunker]

Pish Posh, you are dead wrong. EVen the original Torah interpretations of all future rabbis was transmitted at Sinai.

And you are very confused. The mix up of nations only pertains to certain non-Jewish nations with a special status. Any time there is any doubt as to Jewish lineage, they must convert.

[itchiemayer]

neo - sorry for you, but Arch is right.

[Chicago Sam]

Friends, I would not waste too much time arguing with Bunker, he has demonstrated that he is illiterate when it comes to reading original texts of Jewish law. Such amai haratzos (ignorance par excellence) is what we typically have come to expect from the Bunker archetype that values opinions and bubba ma'asehs above actual knowledge.

Let me repeat my earlier challenge: Show me where in Hilchos Gerim (in Yoreh Deah) the law that would allow anyone or any Beis Din to retroactively negate a convert's status? I honestly don't expect an answer, I doubt Bunker even knows how to translate a Siddur or Thillim (Psalms), let alone read and understand Talmudic Aramaic or understand Biblical Hebrew.

The Torah lists 36 prohibitions against mistreating the ger, and I dare say that a lot of self-righteous zealots will have plenty to answer for their mistreatment of these wonderful Jews by Choice.

[Archie Bunker]

Sam, do you even know what planet you are on? Your question doesn't have a leg to stand on because for the umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a Conservative beis din.

[Chicago Samson]

Spoken once more like a neophyte; where in the Shulchan Aruch or the Rambam does it even state that a Beth Din must be made out of three Rabbis for conversion. I really feel quite embarrassed for you, I suspect you must be one of those Ba'ale Teshuvah who never studied in yeshiva.

I suggest you consider enrolling in one soon if you wish to sound remotely literate wrt this topic.

[agnes kravitz]

Great post. He's right on the money with it. Remember. Queen Esther was intermarried!