Did King David Have Peyot?

No way. Here's why:

Peyot (sidecurls) as we know them originated in the late 16th century, more than 1500 years after King David lived.

Who originated peyot?

The Ari, Rabbi Isaac Luria, whose kabbalistic teachings overturned ancient Jewish mysticism and eventually gave birth to Shabbatai Tzvi's false messianism, the Frankists and, of course, the movement inspired by our favorite herbalist, the Baal Shem Tov.

The point of growing visible peyot seems to have been to distinguish Jews from non-Jews and, more importantly, Jews from other Jews who were thought to be too modern.

Just like the kipa (skullcap), which has no historical source from biblical times (and which was only mandated in the Middle Ages by some rabbis who saw it as a useful distinguishing sign between Jews and non-Jews), peyot are rabbinic markers of rejection of modernity – a separating sign between "real" Jews and other Jews, and between Jews and non-Jews.

Did King David have peyot? Did the Maccabees? Did the rabbis of the mishna?

The evidence is wholly against it.

Ask the Rabbi: A hairy issue
By SHLOMO BRODY, Jerusalem Post

Q Why do some hassidic Jewish males curl hair around their ears and refrain from cutting it (pe'ot or peyos)?

- Meïr Villegas Henríquez, Rotterdam, the Netherlands

A While pe'ot, curls of hair in the "sideburn" area around the ears, certainly appear beyond the hassidic community, they do not currently command universal observance, even within the Orthodox community. Many view them with a sense of ambivalence, treating them on the one hand as a sign of marked Jewishness, while at the same time as an aberration from the norm. This ambivalence, in fact, reflects this custom's long history that weaves together Halacha, self-identity and social realities.

The Torah commands, "You shall not round off the side-growth (pe'ot) on your head, or destroy the side-growth of your beard" (Leviticus 19:27). This short verse amazingly encompasses the history of Jewish facial shaving. The rabbis understood the latter part of the verse to prohibit shaving with a blade (which shears and utterly destroys the hair), leaving Jews to historically either grow beards, trim with scissors or tweezers or, as in Eastern Europe, to use depilatory cream to burn facial whiskers. (Being clean shaven, I regularly thank God for electric shavers!)

For our purposes, the first half of the verse prohibited shearing the hair in front of the ears, extending from the temple to below the cheekbone, or according to some, to the bottom of the earlobes (Makkot 20a). The most popular explanation given by Maimonides and others for both of these prohibitions contends that these shaving habits were promoted by idol worshipers, from whom we must distinguish ourselves (Guide III:37). Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra (12th century, Spain) alternatively suggested that, based on connections to Leviticus 21:5, these practices were expressions of inappropriate mourning. Rabbi Ya'acov ben Asher (d. 1343, Spain), however, criticized this endeavor to offer rationales for these (and other) commandments, contending that we accept them because they represent the divine will (Tur YD 181).

Medieval scholars struggled to define the scope of the pe'ot prohibition. Many scholars, such as Maimonides, contended that one may entirely cut this hair with scissors, provided that one does not use a razor (Hilchot Avoda Zara 12:6). The law, however, follows the opinion of Rabbenu Asher, who contended that one must leave some minimal hair, even when cut with scissors (YD 181:3). Much to the rabbis' chagrin, however, some Jews would razor-shave all of the hair in this area, or at best, leave a singular string of hair (Tashbetz 3:501). A number of rabbis condemned this behavior as an unwanted desire to appear like their non-Jewish neighbors.

Nonetheless, while medieval scholars condemned overly cutting this area, they did not require people to grow out this hair. Maimonides stated this explicitly, noting that the masses err in thinking that the hair should remain unshorn, like a Nazirite (Responsa 2:44). Moreover, as Prof. Yitzhak Zimmer has documented in a detailed essay on this topic, artistic and literary depictions by both Jews and non-Jews make no reference to the growing of pe'ot.

The famed 16th-century Safed kabbalist, R. Isaac Luria (Arizal), was the first to explicitly encourage Jews to grow pe'ot, noting that this mitzva can be performed all day for one's entire life. His students also promoted pe'ot as an external sign of one's Jewish identity, an idea which quickly spread to Sephardi and Ashkenazi lands alike. Under the influence of the Arizal, European hassidic Jews in particular embraced the mystical and symbolic significance of this practice. While some sects wear shorter pe'ot tucked behind ears, others grow them extremely long, to the point where many can identify the affiliation of hassidim based on their pe'ot.

During these centuries, however, an increasing number of Jews violated shaving regulations, both regarding the face and the pe'ot areas. This was particularly truly in central European nations under the influence of the Renaissance, Protestantism, Enlightenment and Reform movements, where men were increasingly clean shaven and in some eras, wore wigs. As Prof. Zimmer notes, the increased neglect of shaving regulations by some Jews only increased its symbolic importance for traditionalist Jews, as pe'ot came to distinguish not only Jews from non-Jews, but also Jews from Jews. Indeed, a government commission found that certain secular leaders forced Yemenite children to cut their pe'ot during the 1950 mass emigration period, much to our country's shame. This is particularly true in light of the fact that pe'ot were the subject of vicious governmental decrees by many modern enemies of the Jewish people.

Today, one finds an increasing number of religious-Zionist youth growing pe'ot. Some do so as a sign of identity with neo-hassidic spirituality, while others emulate the halachic stringency found in the haredi world. Whatever one might feel about this trend, it clearly indicates the continued symbolic meaning of our hair.

The writer, on-line editor of Tradition, teaches at Yeshivat Hakotel and is pursuing a doctorate in Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University.

Comments

[Jehoshaphat]

I don't know where this rabbi gets his info from.

First of all, the Ari is the source always quoted for people like Chabad who keep their Peyot short. This is because he stated that the Peyot shouldn't be long enough to touch the beard.

Here is a recent post on the blog of Rabbi Aviner (no Chabadnik by any means) where he points out this source in the Arizal.

http://www.ravaviner.com/2009/02/long-peot.html

Furthermore, Yemenite Jews, who had little or no contact with European Jews throughout the ages always had very long peyot.

The point is that the Ari is the last person you can blame the long peyot thing on.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya is interesting in this issue because he identifies with the secularists who shave in a manner prohibited according to everyone and with forcing Yemenite children to cut off their payos. Shmarya rails against religious Jews who he feels stick their nose in other people's business when the radical secularists are 100 times worse than anything he twists out of context against the orthodox.

[Archie Bunker]

Correction.

"Interested"

(as SHmarya is not at all interesting. He is very boring with his predictable outbursts)

[Archie Bunker]

There are sources that Esav grew payos as part of his false piety scam to fool his father. The only people he could have copied that practice from were the 3 Patriarchs.

[Archie Bunker]

Mind you, the Secularists who forced the Yemenite children to cut off their payos also in many cases beat them black & blue if they wanted to remain religious whatsoever. The secular govt finally convened a commission to "investigate" the beatings and kidnappings where some children were torn from their parents to be placed with childless, secular families, but it was just a sham that was part of the huge criminal cover up.

[Archie Bunker]

While Shmarya is busy with his latest stretch of trying to blame the great Rabbi Luria for the rise of the Shabsai Tzvi & Frankist cults he is fawning all over the Reform Emil Fackenheim who sired a bunch of non-Jewish children while putting on a farce that we have to be Jewish to stick it to Hitler.

SHmarya, get help and fast as you are extremely confused!

[yidandahalf]

Archie, at least we haven't had a replay of Jungle Boogie yet this week.

[Pure Sephardic]

--The Ari, Rabbi Isaac Luria, whose kabbalistic teachings overturned ancient Jewish mysticism and eventually gave birth to Shabbatai Tzvi's false messianism, the Frankists and, of course, the movement inspired by our favorite herbalist, the Baal Shem Tov.--

Shmarya, what a corrupt way of describing people you have. By your logic, God gave birth to Christianity and Islam and Friedrich Nietzsche killed 6,000,000 Jews because it was their works that were corrupted. And of course the Wright brothers caused so many people to die in crashes.

Jehoshaphat, your point about Yemenite Jews was the first thing that came to my mind. Another thing to keep in mind is that till the last few centuries everyone grew their beards, so the whole issue never came up.

[critical_minyan]

even though i come from a modern orthodox upbringing I grew peyos to show off how Jewish I am to everyone who knows me.
Recently I grew a third sidecurl, that i point up in the air like alfalfa from Little Rascals, as an extra chumrah, so everyone knows that I am a huge tzadik.

[Archie Bunker]

"Shmarya, what a corrupt way of describing people you have"

It's not just corrupt. It shows what a nasty, vicious little man he is. And an arrogant one too the way he insults great rabbis of past generations.

The Brothers Grimm could have cast Shmarya as the Big Bad Wolf because, my what big fangs he has.

[Jehoshaphat]

Actually my brother, an Ashkenazi Breslov Hassid, married a Yemenite girl. Her family normally would never consider such a 'mixed' marriage. The thing that made them comfortable with the match was the fact that my brother has long peyot.

[Archie Bunker]

"at least we haven't had a replay of Jungle Boogie"

Shhh, or Shmarya might come up with another one of his posts with a Jungle Fever theme. And it is Black History Month after all! (In the immortal words of David Clark: "Why are we forced to celebrate African History? In 200 years the US put a man on the Moon while in 2000 years they are still wading in their own pisswater.)

[Archie Bunker]

"I grew a third sidecurl, that i point up in the air like alfalfa from Little Rascals"

You should try the Buckwheat look if trying to impress Shmarya.

[face]

The Ball Shem Tov was a herbalist?

[Archie Bunker]

It was recently revealed that ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent George Stephanopoulos takes part in daily "profane" phone conversations with Democratic strategists James Carville and Paul Begala.

... Oh yeah, and the daily calls also include Obama Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel.

As Politico reports:

Stephanopoulos' role is as the analyst and the skeptic. "George is really a big-systems thinker," Begala said. "As a journalist, he is half of a political scientist, and because he's not in the partisan battles anymore, he sees things differently."

It is not unusual for a journalist like Stephanpoulos to reach out to sources. What is unusual, is for him to give daily advice to them. Of course, having formerly served as a political operative for Bill Clinton's '92 campaign, he has known these operatives for years.

Still, for obvious reasons, this creates a conflict of interest. As host of "This Week," Stephanopoulos is charged with interviewing politicians like Emanuel and his boss Barack Obama.

Of course, we can only imagine what the press would have said if it were revealed that, say, Brit Hume participated in a daily conference call with Karl Rove. This, of course, would be a huge scandal. ... Make no mistake, the double-standard is alive and well.

[Archie Bunker]

"The Ball Shem Tov was a herbalist?"

That's what Shmarya thinks in his weed induced haze.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Recently I grew a third sidecurl, that i point up in the air like alfalfa from Little Rascals, as an extra chumrah, so everyone knows that I am a huge tzadik.
Posted by: critical_minyan | February 05, 2009 at 07:58 AM

I'm growing dreads, so I'm an ever bigger, tzaddik, Mon.

Archie: The racism isn't funny. You undermine your own credibility with it.

My own joke here pokes gentle fun by using dreadlocks as a foil; it is obviously not meant to insult black people).

[Yochanan Lavie]

Critical: You be the Little Rascal, and I'll be the Little Rasta (/humor).

[face]

Shmarya hooked up with a Shvartze

[Archie Bunker]

How is discussing Buckwheat's dreads considered to be racism? By the same token, joking about Alfalfa could be misconstrued as racist against White greaseballs.

[R]

I would like to know how shaving with a razor completely destroys the hair (because it doesn#t as the hair grows back thicker and stronger) whereas using hair removal cream is ok..? Apart from the fact it can cause severe skin problems and I don't know how good it is to use it on the face, but that completely destroys the root and the hair and it makes the hair grow back slower and thinner.
I also thought one doesn't shave with a razor due to the commandment of not putting a knife to the face. Electric shavers are ok because they have a mesh which seperates the blade from the skin, yet it is still a blade and it is still cutting the hair.

Chabad are the only chassidic sect that don't have long peyot. I notice a few yeshvish types have the long peyot too. I personally am not a fan, but everyone to their own.

[no_ari_for_me]

how do we know the Yemenites had a tradition of peyot that goes farther back then their exposure to hasidus?
(not challenging just genuinely curious)

[Garnel Ironheart]

1) There could always be a compromise - Jews have always avoided bowl cuts and kept sideburns, but the Chasidim came along and created the idea that long, curly ones are essential to the faith.

2) Shmarya, you're getting soft in your old age. Time was you would have denied David HaMelech, a"h, even existed. Now you're down to disputing whether he had peyos or not?

[Archie Bunker]

The Torah's word for forbidden shaving, "mashchis", means cutting hair with a direct blade or cutting hair that is pulled from out of pores.

Cream is not a knife nor does it pull hairs out of pores.

[Successful Messiah]

"It's not just corrupt. It shows what a nasty, vicious little man he is."

Now Archie, lets try to stick to the facts and not exagerate. Rumor has it that Shmarya has developed a bit of a pot belly due to his lack of exercise (there are only so many stairs between his bedroom and his mother's basement). I don't think it is fair to accuse him of being little.

[Archie Bunker]

The Yemenites are proof that Shmarya is full of it.

Will he be man enough to pull this ridiculous post? Don't hold your breath.

[Archie Bunker]

"lack of exercise (there are only so many stairs between his bedroom and his mother's basement)"

I figured that every time he sees that orthodox Jews prevail while he continues to waste his life shouting into a void, you have to figure in all the extra footsteps from his constant running to the bathroom.

[Levi]

you have it totaly wrong. the AriZal is AGAINST havign LONG payot. he says that it should not mingle with the beard but payot is actualy a pasuk in the tora forbiding cuting the payot of the face. see the Rambam where is has exact laws regarding the minumum amount of hair that must be left...

[Equal T ime]

--as SHmarya is not at all interesting. He is very boring with his predictable outbursts--

Are you capable of discussing the issue raised by the author? Or are you just capable of directing nastiness at Shmarya that is unbecoming a Jew (not to mention a "rabbi")?

Rhetorical question.

[Successful Messiah]

"First of all, the Ari is the source always quoted for people like Chabad who keep their Peyot short. This is because he stated that the Peyot shouldn't be long enough to touch the beard."

And can you imagine that Shmarya was a member of Chabad for so many years.

Hey, Scotty - if you don't even know what your minhagim were, how can we trust you on things that you really have no clue about.

[Archie Bunker]

Unequal time, if you read all my posts on this thread, your question will be answered.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5145E120090205?sp=true

Are there dairy operations in & around Postville?

[jewishwhistleblower]

Parents ignore child abuse on rabbi's advice
Police investigators stunned to find ultra-Orthodox parents ignored sexual abuse of their two children after their rabbi warned filing charges may invoke halachic rule equal to 'din moser'
by Efrat Weiss
02.05.09
Israel Jewish Scene

The Jerusalem Police recently revealed a stunning conspiracy of silence involving the sexual abuse of two children, ages four and nine, by a male relative. The investigation also revealed that the children's parents, their rabbi and their neighbors were all aware of the abuse, but chose to keep quiet.
...
(see full article)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3667308,00.html

[Yochanan Lavie]

How is discussing Buckwheat's dreads considered to be racism? By the same token, joking about Alfalfa could be misconstrued as racist against White greaseballs.

Posted by: Archie Bunker |

Talking about Buckwheat is not racism. Mentioning David Clark's racist quote w/o disavowing it, is.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya hooked up with a Shvartze

Posted by: face | February 05, 2009 at 10:13 AM

I hope he marries her, they have a big, strong son, and he grows up and kicks your racist ass.

[C-Girl]

This is going to piss a lot of people off, but archaeologists recently found definitive evidence that King David did not have two sinks in his kitchen.

They also excavated ancient texts that seem to indicate that early rabbis had the scientific knowledge to build a Maytag dishwasher (albeit with a better circuit board) for which the plans were revealed only to a small ban of proto-kabbalists who proclaimed it assur for reasons that will be obvious only when Moshiach is revealed in 2097 CE. The writings, however, plainly stated that since Palmolive detergent rendered any food particles pagum, only one of these devices was necessary, the racks did not need to be changed in between runs, and that running the dishwasher for an empty cycle was wasteful of precious resources.

;-)

[Archie Bunker]

Is there something about Minnesota that makes some bloggers stand apart?

http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2009/02/call-me-crazy.html

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...
I do have a real job, and I don't blog in a basement or in my underwear:-)

11:43 AM, February 05, 2009

[Archie Bunker]

"Mentioning David Clark's racist quote"

In the context that a month long celebration of African history is being shoved down people's throats in the United States by Liberal school boards, he was correct to be outraged. Most kids don't even know their own history.

If Liberals want to keep their children home from school only when Black candidates get inaugurated or give a standing ovation only when a Michelle Obama strolls into a restaurant, that's their business. Just don't force the rest of society to go along with these pathetic charades.

[dr. dave]

I know of a BT who was very enhusiastic wearing his talit katan outside his shirt. His rabbi asked why he didnt wear it under with the tzitzit out but neatly tucked in his belt.

He replied that he was proud of his Judaism.

The Rabbi then suggested that the true mark of his Judaism was his brit mila and maybe he should leave that hanging out proudly too!

I have a neat beard that fulfils all the constraints of the lo ta'ase but is not silly.

BTW since princess leia wore peyot in star wars shouldn't they be forbidden as ולא־ילבש גבר שמלת אשה a man shall not dress as a woman?

[Archie Bunker]

"they have a big, strong son"

Hey, is that a page out of Jimmy Snyder's breeding handbook? You might have to issue an apology while standing next to Jesse Jackson!

[face]

yochanan, he would also need to convert her first to make sure the kid will be Jewish if he even cares. And skinnydipping in his parents jacuzzi while they're out shopping doesn't count.

[Successful Messiah]

"Shmarya hooked up with a Shvartze

Posted by: face | February 05, 2009 at 10:13 AM

I hope he marries her, they have a big, strong son, and he grows up and kicks your racist ass.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | February 05, 2009 at 12:50 PM"

Who said anything about "her"?

[alternative childcare]

Since Archie's other tactic is to leave threads when things get rough for him, we'll carry over this post from an earlier thread "v'tziref l'kan" since its directly relevant:

I did not make any comments on this thread that could even be misconstrued as "racist" against Blacks. He doesn't like the message so he attempts to shoot the messenger.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | February 04, 2009 at 05:50 PM
--------------------------

A racist and a comedian!

This guy is good!

Archie's story is well known.

He is an insecure and unrepentant racist who fancies himself to be Judaism incarnate. This is the only Jew on earth that claims to have some sort of connection somehow to every single story Shmarya posts.

Give him 5 minutes he will claim to have a friend who spotted Adolf Eichmann, contacts who know Bibi Netanyahu, family who know Mondrowitz, business associates who know Madoff.

Wherever there is a Jew, Archie Bunker claims to have a "contact".

Posted by: Jon | February 05, 2009 at 11:48 AM

"I did not make any comments on this thread that could even be misconstrued as "racist" against Blacks." -Archie Bunker

Anyone who has read this blog for five minutes would have seen multiple anti-black statements from you, you just assume that people have no memory. Its your usual style, you make assertions in the name of "Torah" without citations, without proof, and when anyone corrects you, you ask for "proof". I suppose your next comment would be "oh, yeah, show me one racist comment I made". Then, if someone posts something, you'll say, well, that's not racism, racism means implying genetic characteristics or some evasive maneuver like that. And all those personal comments against Shmarya get dull after a while, one can be reassured whenever something gets posted here there will be some crack about pajamas and black women, which I suppose most of us find rather offensive.

Besides, how can you represent the voice of Torah when you use the name of a racist, antisemitic parody character created by reform Jew Norman Lear? I suspect that if people knew who/what you actually were, they would debate you as though you were the gadol hador.

[face]

Alternative Childcare, Archie goes way back with Shmarya. If Archie is hwo I think he is had a Shvartze cleaning lady who Shmarya used to sleep with. The story goes, Shmarya got her pregnant and forced her to abort but Archie took her under his wing and protected her from the evil Shmarya, when the baby was born Emil Fackenheim adopted him and converted him through the reform rabinate of toronto.

[Rachel]

You go, C-girl!

[Menachem]

Sir, your ignorance and arrogance is beyond anything I have seen before.

[alternative childcare]

face, thanks for explaining it all to me, now I understand, I couldn't figure out why Archie makes the same crack after every post on this blog, and has done so for years.
Personally, I thought that Archie was hot for Shmarya and it was one of those unrequitted love situations.

My true disappointment at this thread was that I initially thought it had something to do with King David and Peyote, which is a different thing entirely and far more interesting (and he did play a mean harp, they say).

[yidandahalf]

YL, to be accurate, Buckwheat did not have dreads. I would call it a "modified" kinky twist if forced to identify the style, which I must admit I like ( although it may be a trick of memory and in fact Buckwheat sported a very comomon 'fro' ). I have a Senegalese friend who makes potloads of gelt doing them.
BUT ANYWAY since it's a slow week we may find just about anything in the threads depending from the crappy articles Shmarya is putting up.
Whilst waiting for some real news, it may be the time for the blogmeister to sell replicas of his famous underwear, variously described by commentors as 'underware', tighty whites, bikini briefs. If not now when? Once the mystery is revealed the underwear posters will have to think up new material for a change.

[Shmarya]

Back to peyot:

1. Yemenites Jews were forced to wear long peyot by the non-Jewish rulers of Yemen, much like Jews in other Muslim countries were forced to wear distinguishing clothing.

2. There are two ways of understanding the Ari. One way leads to long peyot curled to avoid blending with the beard or curled behind the ear; the other way is Chabad's short peyot in front of the ear (which, BTW, is not necessarily what Chabad did 150 years ago).

[Equal T ime]

--Unequal time, if you read all my posts on this thread, your question will be answered.--

I have - and what I SEE is someone doing their darndest to make his point for him (assuming you are correct - and that his point is that Orthodox Jews are evil).

I'm curious as to why?

[Equal T ime]

--I did not make any comments on this thread that could even be misconstrued as "racist" against Blacks.--

I assure you, no one misconstrued anything. We understand you perfectly.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yid: What about Hugo Chavez's minions wrecking the Caracas synagogue and trashing the torah scroll. The Venezulan Jews can't have a minyan because of Chavez's minions. Not a chareidi story, but big news nevertheless.

[Pure Sephardic]

--. Yemenites Jews were forced to wear long peyot by the non-Jewish rulers of Yemen, much like Jews in other Muslim countries were forced to wear distinguishing clothing.--

sources please

[Jehoshaphat]

A couple of people here have brought up a point that the Yemenite Jews were forced by the Gentiles to grow long peyot as a sign of their being Jewish.

First of all, I would like to know where they got this information. But lets assume that they have a historical source for it...

Why in the world would Yemenite Arabs come up with such a strange symbol to identify Jews?! Oh, I know, there must have been a couple of Yemenite business people, who traveled to Poland during the time of the Chassidim, and when they got back to Yemen they said to themselves, "hey, why don't our Jews have those cool curly things like the ones in Poland do? Lets make a decree!"

This is obviously absurd!

Shmarya also says:

"2. There are two ways of understanding the Ari. One way leads to long peyot curled to avoid blending with the beard or curled behind the ear; the other way is Chabad's short peyot in front of the ear (which, BTW, is not necessarily what Chabad did 150 years ago)."

He is twisting (no pun intended) the Arizal's words. The Ari used to cut his Peyos short so that they wouldn't touch his beard. He said that this is in order to not mix the spiritual forces involved in the two different mitzvos. Those who want to grow their peyos long, now have to contend with the Ari's opinion. They therefore curl their peyos to keep them distinct from the beard.

The point is that Shmarya falsely writes:

"The famed 16th-century Safed kabbalist, R. Isaac Luria (Arizal), was the first to explicitly encourage Jews to grow pe'ot, noting that this mitzva can be performed all day for one's entire life. His students also promoted pe'ot as an external sign of one's Jewish identity, an idea which quickly spread to Sephardi and Ashkenazi lands alike. Under the influence of the Arizal, European hassidic Jews in particular embraced the mystical and symbolic significance of this practice. While some sects wear shorter pe'ot tucked behind ears, others grow them extremely long, to the point where many can identify the affiliation of hassidim based on their pe'ot."

The evidence is clearly against him.

1. If anything, the Ari was moderating the practice of growing peyot and saying that they should be kept rather short, or tucked up under the hat. If the wearing of Peyot wasn't already in practice, he would have had no need for this.

2. It is irrelevant if the Arabs forced the Yemenite Jews to grow Peyot or not. The fact is that this was so obviously a symbol of Judaism to them all the way at the bottom of the Arabian peninsula.

Oh yeah, Shmarya also writes that having short peyos may not have always been the custom of Chabad. That may be true, but if it is, it refutes another one of his arguments against the historical basis of Peyot. This is because we have paintings of many of the Rebbes of Chabad and photographs of others. None of them appear to have long Peyot. It may be that they did have them, and kept them hidden away under their Yarmulke, perhaps for Kabbalistic or other reasons. This would indicate, that the fact that we don't see peyot in old paintings of Jews proves nothing. It could very well be that the universal custom was to grow long Peyot and keep them tucked away. I don't think that that was the case, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than all of the drivel that Shmarya wrote in this post.

Stick to the Rubashkin stuff its a lot more interesting!

[maven]

The Ari was commenting on how to reconcile our beards with the supernal beard which "corresponds" to the 13 aspects of Gd's mercy as in the "yud gimel midot harachamim", and I think it is a misreading to suggest this is the "primary source" for leaving the sideburns unshaven, rather, he had a mystical practice for how to correspond better to the imagery. The Yemenites are clearly depicted, much before the Ari, with sidecurls. While there were forced conversions of the Yemenite Jews, and stealing of orphan children, etc, the Jews were distinguised in many ways, particularly that they were forced mostly to live on the outskirts of towns, with many migrations, etc, but that's a whole other story that one can read about in the academic literature.

[Archie Bunker]

ALternative Child, please stick to one screen name.

"Wherever there is a Jew, Archie Bunker claims to have a "contact"."

You're going to have to try a lot harder to discredit me than using silly exaggerations.

"Anyone who has read this blog for five minutes would have seen multiple anti-black statements from you"

I did say something yesterday that finally could even be misconstrued. You Liberals can't handle the truth and call it "racism".

"you make assertions in the name of "Torah" without citations, without proof, and when anyone corrects you, you ask for "proof".

Sorry, that Shmarya's M.O.

[state of disgust]

Payot...payot What's al this talk about magic mushrooms and King David? Did he do payot buttons or didn't he ... it would explain a lot wouldn't it?

[alternative childcare]

That line about wherever there is a Jew... wasn't from me, that wasn't me using an alternative screen name.

I'm with you when you use the word "truth" with regards to Torah, but not with regards to politics or your frequently remarkable statements about race. Perhaps I'm sensitive, after such things as the Shoah, the significance of which I know some litvish groups like to poo-poo.

As far as the assertions and proof, I call him on that when necessary as well, but he doesn't claim to represent all of Orthodoxy when he does that. You seem to have a very black:white (pun intended) view of things, I'm either pro-Shmarya or against him, or pro-you or against you, but I like to take it post by post. The only thing I uniformly advocate in favor of are YL's song parodies.

Frankly, while we're at it, I'm so tired of that "pajamas and shvartze girlfriend" bit, you've written it at least a hundred times since I've started reading this blog. Aside from the fact that right now accepted in the frum world are many communities who would be considered "black" , such as the Cochinis, and some Yemenites, aside from the Ethiopians, that I find maintaining that kind of language to be very discomforting, even if you don't regard non-Jews as human beings.

[ML]

Wow.

Bravo, gentlemen.

[A. Nuran]

And once again I'm forced to say:

The Sages didn't know diddly squat about the physical world. Any decisions based on their understanding are at best quaint and at worst must be rejected out of hand.

A razor doesn't "destroy hairs" and it doesn't "pull hair out of the pores". Hair doesn't spring from the pores. Harsh chemical creams might permanently destroy hair. And tweezers are simply an exercise in non-consensual trans-millenia S&M. Besides, the DO pull out hairs.

And no matter who said it or how many times it's written in the Talmud or by Rashi or by Moses son of Maimon:

Mice are not spontaneously generated from mud.
Lice are not spontaneously generated from sweat.
Cats do not have poison in their claws.
Cunilingus will not make your baby blind unless your husband has an exceptionally long, strong tongue and is doing it after the baby has turned and dropped. If that's the case you have married an anteater and have other problems.

...and about a thousand other ones like that.

[Archie Bunker]

"the Shoah, the significance of which I know some litvish groups like to poo-poo."

How dare you insult Litvaks like that when they bore the biggest brunt of the Nazi slaughter with over 90% of them exterminated.

"I'm so tired of that "pajamas and shvartze girlfriend" bit"

So sleep on it. I also never used that kind of crude terminology. You can take that up with Shmarya'a Chabadnik adversaries who mention nothing but that issue and with that exact wording.

[Archie Bunker]

"The Sages didn't know diddly squat about the physical world"

It must be "true" if you heard from Nuran, the arrogant, no-nothing heretic who posted that rubbish on SHabbos.

At least a heretic like Aristotle knew what he was talking about in order to distort things. Nuran doesn't know his head from his foot.

Norelco has advertised a shaver for years that is a "lift & cut". In case it wasn't simple enough, let's dumb it down a little more for the benefit of Nuran. Lift & cut means that the hair is pulled out of the pore to be snipped.

The genius also thinks that his feeble comprehension of every Talmudic statement at face value is "proof" that the great sages of eons ago are "wrong".

[alternative childcare]

"How dare you insult Litvaks like that when they bore the biggest brunt of the Nazi slaughter with over 90% of them exterminated."

Not the yeshivish part of the Lithuanian community. But I think the texts are clear, from R. Hutner on, its nothing new, Esav soneh et Yaakov, its the Zionists fault, "mamzer dump", no reason to have commemoration days, etc.

Sorry if I confused your pajama bit with their shvarze girlfriend line, its hard to keep the noise seperate. When you stick to real subjects, you get appropriate responses at least from me and my screen names :)

[Yochanan Lavie]

AC: Thanks for the endorsement. I like all of your personalities.

A. Nuran: The stuff about the physical world isn't even in the miqra. It's times like these that I lean towards Karaism. (The Karaites were literal in places where the rabbis were allegorical, and allegorical in places where the rabbis were literal; i.e. a trade-off- example: tefillin). I like Dave Marshall's idea about incorporating the best of Karaite interpretation with the best of rabbinic- a kind of UTJ with a little Karaite influence.

[nobody]

" Yemenites Jews were forced to wear long peyot by the non-Jewish rulers of Yemen, "

Source?

[nobody]

"Yemenites Jews were forced to wear long peyot by the non-Jewish rulers of Yemen,"

Source?

[shneerhere]

Now that you little boys have had your fun mocking the blogger, how 'bout coming up with some FACTS instead of ridicule?

I enjoy pointing out where I think Shmarya might be wrong as much as anyone, but ya do it with facts, not with slander, mocking, humiliation and disgraceful talk.

Shame on you for belittling him. You lose all credibiliy, even if you're 'right', when you do that.