RCA: Rabbi Lookstein Violated Jewish Law By Joining National Prayer Service In Cathedral

Details:

Orthodox group: Rabbi violated rules by joining National Prayer Service

By Jacob Berkman

NEW YORK (JTA) -- The main Modern Orthodox rabbinical association says a prominent member violated its rules by participating in the National Prayer Service.

A Rabbinical Council of America official told JTA that Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, the religious leader of Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun in New York City, broke the organization's rules by participating in the service Wednesday at the National Cathedral on the morning after Barack Obama's inauguration.

“The long-standing policy of the Rabbinical Council of America, in accordance with Jewish law, is that participation in a prayer service held in the sanctuary of a church is prohibited," the RCA said in a statement. "Any member of the RCA who attends such a service does so in contravention of this policy and should not be perceived as representing the organization in any capacity."

The RCA said that Lookstein’s participation was problematic both because the service was held in the sanctuary of a church, which Orthodox Jews are prohibited from entering, and because it was an interfaith prayer service, which the RCA discourages for fear that such participation could allow missionaries to legitimize their argument that Jews can indeed embrace Jesus.

“To go into a cathedral, in this case an Episcopalian cathedral in the main sanctuary, is certainly by most accounts not appropriate," the executive director of the RCA, Rabbi Basil Herring, told JTA. "If one wants to visit the Sistine Chapel to view the art of Michelangelo it is problematic. There is no political perspective here that says you should not do it because it is politically sensitive. Of course it is a purely religious question.”

Herring was adamant that the RCA was not taking a political stance, noting that the organization sent a letter to President Obama congratulating him and expressing confidence that "with the help of God, you will build on the respect and good will that you have earned to lead a united country in a successful confrontation with the daunting challenges that we face both within and without."

The RCA has been in conversation with Lookstein, but at this point is not seeking to sanction him, a source familiar with the situation said. But, the source added, any RCA member can suggest that another member be brought before a disciplinary board for violating rules. It is not clear if any member intends to do so.

Lookstein joined six representatives of various religious communities, including Rabbi Jerome Epstein, the executive vice president of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, in reciting portions of a nondenominational responsive prayer. Most of the overall service was nondenominational, but there were a few distinctily Christian reference.

Lookstein said he was satisfied with his decision to participate.

“After consultation with people who are absolutely committed to halacha, I had originally decided to do it because I felt it was a civic duty to honor the new president of the United States. That is why I originally agreed to do it,” Lookstein said. “But the people who spoke to me about it indicated it was an important contribution to the Orthodox community because it is only right for the Orhtodox community to be supporting the president in a visible way when he is being supported by representatives of the Conservative and Reform movements.”

Lookstein said he did not want a conflict with his colleagues in the RCA and did not anticipate one.

“I would be very sad if that happened,” he said.

Lookstein said he had two conversations with Herring about his participation. In the first, Herring tried to dissuade Lookstein from participating. In the second, he did not.

“Had I pulled out it would have been something of an insult from the Orthodox community, which was at least the way I felt,” Lookstein said.

He also said that he heavily weighed the halachic implications of his move, and though he would not ordinarily participate in an interfaith prayer service, especially one in a church, in this case he felt “there were other concerns.”

“If I reached a decision to do it, since I am very careful about shmirat mitzvot, you should conclude that I felt halachically this was the right thing to do,” Lookstein said. “I am not going around and making a decision for the world.”

Lookstein, who read a religiously neutral statement scripted by National Prayer Service organizers, called the experience very moving.

He also met Obama after the reading and recited to the new president the blessing Jews say when they come into the presence of a king -- only after Obama gave him permission.

“I thanked him for his support of Israel and I urged him to remember the unforgettable statement he made in Sderot, where he said, ‘If anybody would shoot rockets into my house while my daughters were sleeping, I would do anything in my power to make sure they wouldn’t do it again,’ ” Lookstein said. “He responded with a clear assent.”

The other four religious representatives to read part of the prayer were Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America; the Rev. Jim Wallis, president of Sojourners; Uma Mysorekar, president of the Hindu Temple Society of North America; the Rev. Suzan Johnson-Cook, senior pastor of the Bronx Christian Fellowship in New York City; the Rev. Carol Wade of the Washington National Cathedral; and Kirbyjon Caldwell, senior pastor of the Windsor Village United Methodist Church in Houston.

Earlier in the program Rabbi David Saperstein, the Reform movement's top representative in Washington, was to recite Psalm 121.

According to another source, the Obama team was looking specifically for the participation of an Orthodox rabbi.

One person in attendance said that Sen. Joe Lieberman, the one-time Orthodox candidate for vice president, told him that it was an incredibly important and a very positive thing that the Orthodox community was represented.

Rabbi Tzvi Hersch Weinreb, the executive vice president of the Orthodox Union, was rumored to have been approached by the Obama team, but declined the invitation -- paving the way for Lookstein to appear.

Weinreb would neither confirm nor deny that he was asked to participate, but stood by the RCA's rule, which is based on an edict from the late Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik, Modern Orthodoxy's longtime spiritual leader. Orthodox rabbis, according to Soloveitchik, should not engage in theological debate or participate in interfaith services, but they should absolutely work with religious officials of other faiths on matters of social welfare, freedom and hunger, Weinreb said.

"I have no comment to the whole thing," Weinreb said. Referring to Lookstein's decision to accept the invitation, he added, "Obviously he has justification for doing what he did."

One of Weinreb's high-ranking lieutenants, the O.U.'s top official in Washington, Nathan Diament, was in attendance at the National Cathedral, according to several sources. Diament would neither confirm nor deny that he was there, but Weinreb said that an O.U. employee in attendance was there representing himself, not the organization. Diament and Obama attended Harvard Law School together.

In what may be viewed as a belated attempt to make its attack on Rabbi Lookstein seem non-political, the RCA issued a press release yesterday – the day after the Inauguration – that praises Obama:

The Rabbinical Council of America Congratulates President Barack Obama 
Conveys "Mazeltov" on His Inauguration, and Prays for his Success and Blessing

Jan 21, 2009 -- The Rabbinical Council of America, the largest grouping of Orthodox Rabbis in the world, today conveyed to President Barack Obama, and his administration, sincere wishes for success and blessing. The letter stated as follows:

Dear Mr. President:

The Rabbinical Council of America extends warm congratulations as you assume the highest office in the land.

The inauguration of a new President is always an auspicious occasion, but this one is of transcendent significance. We represent a community rooted in ethical values, impelled by religious faith, all too familiar with oppression, and profoundly grateful to the United States for its welcoming embrace. From all of these perspectives, the election of an African-American President is cause for joy, and the juxtaposition of your inauguration and Martin Luther King Day cannot help but inspire thoughts of providential confirmation that the American dream is finally being realized in the area where it was most wanting.

During the recent campaign, your qualities of mind and of leadership became evident to Americans of all political, ideological, and religious persuasions no matter how they ultimately cast their vote. You are now the steward of our hopes and aspirations. We are confident that, with the help of God, you will build on the respect and good will that you have earned to lead a united country in a successful confrontation with the daunting challenges that we face both within and without.

We reiterate our warmest congratulations. And - as is customary among Jews - a heartfelt prayer for your good fortune: mazeltov! 

Sincerely, 
Rabbi Shlomo Hochberg, President
Rabbi Basil Herring, Executive Vice-President

Comments

[Dr, Dave]

Did he show up in a coffin like R' Yochanan ben Zakkai to meet the new ruler who was laying siege to Yerushalaim?

[PulpitRabbi]

Actually, the letter to the President had been written and sent before the RCA was asked about Rabbi Lookstein. Infact, anything issued by an organization such as the RCA has to pass before one or two committees, which takes time. Hence, you can be sure that if the letter was made known to the press on the day of the inauguration, it had been written much earlier.

Also, the RCA did not criticize Rabbi Lookstein, merely pointed out when asked by some reporter that this was not in line with RCA policy.

Nothing newsworthy here, except for the fact that the press sometimes mangles the news.

[Anon]

What goes around...

This is the guy who threw out Tendler on the evidence of the nutcase midwives and the lady who gets communication from space aliens.

Read the RCA report...

Mr. Frum himself.

Did he cross himself?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Everyone: Christianity: Isn't it a gray area in halacha, because it has hypostatis (a "shituf" between the God of Israel and another power)? I would hate to consign billions of Christians to gehenna, despite what the Rambam says.

[Archie Bunker]

Knock it off, Anon.

There were 10 women from different times & places who said Tendler is a pervert. That is more than sufficient grounds in halacha to kick him out of his pulpit and keep women away from him.

It must be lonely for you as one of the 15 idiots who davens in the private minyan in his house.

[Archie Bunker]

Yochanan, shituf is an argument among the poskim. The opinion that it is not avodah zara only works for them and NOT for us

[Archie Bunker]

I suppose I was naive to expect more from the RCA. We keep hearing that it's now a post-racial era yet everyone including Pickled Herring keeps falling over themselves with these ridiculous reinforcements about Blackness. I can't even imagine what Marc Schneier did to outdo the RCA. Maybe he was jumping up & down with Rachel Batya while chanting asher kidshanu bemitzvotav vetzivanu al MLK.

[Itchiemayer]

Very disappointing. I just found out about this alleged possible conversion of the Trump gal, and this very same Rabbi is the one involved. So an "orthodox" guy decides to go out with a shiksa, they have good sex together (probably), want to marry each other, so they go to this Rabbi Lookstein and he is ok with working on her conversion. What a joke! No wonder there are shidduch problems in the Jewish world. Shame on the guy, and bigger shame for "Rabbi" Lookstein. Is he the one who "converted" the beau of Baron sacha Cohen who is allegedly observant. Look, I know converts who are more orthodox than me, and I have no problems with converts. However, those converts were ones who converted for the right reasons, because something in their neshama had them look toward Torah. This gal is not converting for the right reason. I don't want her in the fold, and this Rabbi Lookstein is apparently not following a valid hashgafa. He received Smicha from Harav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik ZT"L, but does not follow the teachings of his Rebbe, and goes into a place of avoda zara.

[David]

The psak is outdated and needs to be dumped. We should not tell our Christian neighbors that their churches are so awful that we can't set foot in them. Let's have enough confidence in who we are that we need not consider it "problematic" to walk into the Sistine Chapel to see Michelangelo's frescos (or a local church to see a friend's wedding).

[Archie Bunker]

David, Judaism is not run by Shmarya or the Vatican that rules can suddenly be considered "outdated".

[Archie Bunker]

Itchiemayer, you should have seen the hornet's nest stirred up when it was mentioned here once that Haskell Lookstein used to attend the opera without wearing a yarmulka.

SHmarya and his friends only look to defend "orthodox" rabbis who break with tradition, so they tried to put up 1001 excuses why a supposedly leading rabbi doesn't have to cover his head.

[Dave Marshall]

I am a very minority opinion on here, since I do consider Christianity as avodah zarah.
It is even more so avodah zarah purporting to be monotheism, unlike Hinduism and Buddhism that don't pretend to be monotheism.
However, I do think that Rabbi Lookstein was right to go to the service. We must not be so afraid of our own shadows, people.
Rabbi Lookstein is not going to become an apsostate because he went, for probably a once in a lifetime visit to a church, and for a specific reason.

[Archie Bunker]

Arthur Schneier also loves high profile phony conversions. WHen the rabbi of 5th Ave Synagogue refused to convert Patricia Duff for the Revlon / Marvel Comics Chief, Arturo jumped into the fray like a real life cartoon character for some hocus pocus.

[Dave Marshall]

I should add, for a "civic reason", and he is definitely not endorsing Christianity by agreeing to go to this service.
Since the administration officials asked RCA if one of their rabbis would like to attend, and if no one from RCA attended, then clearly this would have been noted as an insult, ie. we think they're (the Christians, the "outside" world) are not just treif, but are beneath respect.
If we want to influence others, and in so doing make them like us and become our genuine friends, we have to extend them the courtesy of attending major national events like this.

[Shmarya]

Actually, the letter to the President had been written and sent before the RCA was asked about Rabbi Lookstein. Infact, anything issued by an organization such as the RCA has to pass before one or two committees, which takes time. Hence, you can be sure that if the letter was made known to the press on the day of the inauguration, it had been written much earlier.

Also, the RCA did not criticize Rabbi Lookstein, merely pointed out when asked by some reporter that this was not in line with RCA policy.

Nothing newsworthy here, except for the fact that the press sometimes mangles the news.

I believe most of what your write is false.

Note the date on the RCA letter – it's the day AFTER the inauguration.

[Dave Marshall]

By the way, I don't believe that b.s. that converting to for marriage is somehow not acceptable. People may join the Jewish people for all kinds of reasons, but once they're in our people, if we welcome them genuinely, they will become genuine even if they weren't in the beginning.
And what about their children?
If they convert, there is a big chance that their kids will grow to love and follow Judaism's teachings.
If we push them away, this chance has been reduced to ZERO.
More Jews means more chance of more people studying Torah. Less Jews means more divisiveness even among who's left.
If we insist on being holier than thou, all I can say is, next stop Samaritan Israelite studies- ie. a tiny tiny group. You think that's funny? The Samaritans used to number over a million in the 1600's. Now there are less than 1,000 today.
Let's not kid ourselves, if we do not grow and we do push out people at current rates, we could be heading for Samaritan status in the next 100 years.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave, wake up & smell the coffee.

Jewish numbers are dwindling precisely because of all this horse manure from the Reform, Conservative and far-Left modern orthodox to water down religion. Their kids intermarry because the brand of religion being touted to them is so empty.

[itchiemayer]

Archie is right again, it is the truly orthodox Jews that have perpetuated Judaism over the centuries. The dwindling numbers within the reform and conservative ranks, despite their making allowances like mixed marriage/gay marriage etc.. bear this out. They keep on bending the rules to keep up their membership, as theirs is nothing more than a business. Now that they have sanctioned gay marriage to maintain numbers in their ranks, I'm not sure where they can turn to when their numbers continue to fall. They are in such denial.Dave, I question the authenticity of this gals conversion, and I don't want Judaism watered down by someone who just wants to be in it to marry some guy who she'll probably divorce within 5 years, and fight for their child and raise that child non-Jewish. Now I know that some of you will now come with potshots at the orthodox who at times have done highly improper things for money, etc...but whether you are in denial or not, there is legitimate Torah Judaism being practiced to this day, and forever it will be. The reform bend every rule in the book, and they are shrinking in number. Dave, I don't want the watered down Judaism you apparently advocate. conservative Judaism is going down the same path as reform as well. What a misnomer - "conservative".

[Dave Marshall]

Archie,
I know you like the approach of "my way or the highway". That's fine. The problem, you know what most people's response to that is-
o.k., fine I'll take the high way.
What is your answer to that?
I fully agree that the ideal is Torah Judaism, and all rabbis should espouse that, But let's not kick anyone out if they don't come up to maximum standards. The door Must Always be open.
The door Must Be Shut to Murderers, Rapist, Child-Molesters, etc.
But the door Must Be Open to anyone who is genuinely seeking a relationship with Hashem.
I repeat, some people may have converted to Judaism for "cynical" reasons. However they have met fellow Jews and studied the Torah and discovered the beauty of the Torah, and grown in observance, and guess what- they're no longer cynical.
But hey, unless they converted Orthodox, or nowadays should I say Ultra-Orthodox, they're treif anyway, so boot 'em out (SARCASM).
How do we know that a son of Ivanka and her husband will not become a talmid hacham?
It's possible, if we genuinely warmly welcome Ivanka into our people.
If we push her and her husband away, then we've just guaranteed that will NEVER happen.
That's why any conversion to Judaism is better than no conversion. No conversion means their lost.
Even a "Reform" conversion (horror of horrors ! sarcasm) is a start. The next step is for the convert to grow in mitzvot.
I am a born Jew, but I'm more observant than I used to be. If everyone in every synagogue I ever met, said "Dave, it's either 100 percent or forget it", I would have said "scr-w you, I am out of here".
Since we believe the Torah is Truth, we know that Truth will prevail, therefore we must not be afraid. So we must be brave and mekarev everyone. Don't push anyone away unless they are a murderer/ child molester, etc. (certain sins for which there is no forgiveness, in my humble opinion).

[Dave Marshall]

Excuse the typo: I meant to say "No conversion means they're lost"(lost to the Jewish people).

[Dave Marshall]

By the way, Itchie, I agree with you far more than you think. Of course Orthodox Judaism is the ideal. But since we believe Torah is Truth, we have no need to be afraid. We must mekarev everyone. Let Ivanka start out Reform or whatever.
We are all on a path. Some observe more mitzvot and some less. But we should encourage people rather than always saying
"we want max. observance from you from day one, the day you leave the mikvah".
Conversion to Judaism is the start, not the end of the process.
Believe it or not, All movements of Judaism have More in common with each other than they do with other religions. Let's all start with what we have in common and grow in mitzvot and study and kindness.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave, what you say works for born Jews but not for outsiders who feel like hanging with us.

Since insincere convert candidates do not receive a Jewish soul, there is far too much danger to sweep things under the rug. It is a must to not accept them.

[Dave Marshall]

One more point.
Itchie, I totally agree with you that the Conservative movement was totally gutless
to sanction gay marriage. However there is still the Israeli Masorti movement that does not, and Rabbi Einat Ramon, the head of their seminary has taken a very brave stand in this matter.

[Dave Marshall]

Archie, you think there is a danger, therefore you must fear something.
Since Torah is Truth, Truth will convince the most cynical goy. We just must be the agents of that spiritual change. But Hashem will effect the change. But the change will not happen if we do not let the person have the opportunity to become Jewish.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave, this is such severity attached to this that this is the first time in history that even unreligious people have not understood the gravity.

These people do not have Jewish souls. They are living & cohabitating with Jews which is a cardinal sin. They are producing offspring that are also not Jewish who start the cycle over with others.

In the history of the Jewish people, many have given up their lives if they were forced to marry someone from another religion. It is one of the few instances in halacha where it is required like when given the ultimatum of murdering someone else or forfeiting one's own life.

[Archie Bunker]

There are the same bottom line problems with Conservative / Masorati even without gay "marriage". All pandering to homos did was put out in the open that Conservative at least no longer pretends to be more religious than Reform.

[Archie Bunker]

Excuse the bad grammar at 10:19 as I was typing too quickly.

there is such severity attached to this AND (sadly) this is the first time in history that even unreligious people have not understood the gravity.

[itchiemayer]

Dave - thanks for your comments, but I believe you make a mistake. When you say it is my way or the highway to a born Jew - that is not true - they are Jewish either way, and we should be more tolerant and hopefully be mekarev them. However, my way or the highway is appropriate to say to a possible convert. If Rabbi Lookstein, or any Rabbi/Beis Din converts someone who is not 100% committed to practice orthodox Judaism from day one, then that person will be judged as Jew (a higher standard of judgment), and when their lack of full committment manifests itself in ways like violation of shabbos, kashrus, etcc... those Rabbis will share in that convert's aveirahs. Now this does not apply to someone who did convert with every fiber of their being and then somehow goes off the derech - then I would say the Rabbis are not responsible for that person. But to convert someone you have any doubts about is a huge mistake for the convert and for those that convert them.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I think Ivanka's fiance is from an observant household. So many she will become observant, even if not a shteitl wearing kind. I have known many converts for marriage who have become more dedicated and observant than their spouses, and have even lead their born-Jewish spouses to greater observance.

I accept all converts in my heart, but Orthodoxy is, and should be, the gold standard.

[Dave Marshall]

Itchie, you have a point. But if Ivanka says to the Beit Din that she has making a commitment to Judaism, we cannot presume or second-guess that she is going to go off the derech. Just because she is good looking, that does not necessarily mean she is incapable of spiritual commitment.
So my conclusion is;
if Ivanka tells the Beit Din, whether Rabbi Lookstein is part of it or not, but if she tells any Orthodox Beit Din that she is committing herself to follow the mitzvot, we have to assume that she is not going to go off the derech. If she later does go off the derech, we have to be mekarev as we would to any Jewish person who is gone off the derech, because after she has made her formal commitment in front of an Orthodox Beit Din she is as Jewish as you or I.

[itchiemayer]

Just the fact that the guy starts dating a shiksa makes me question his level of commitment to begin with.

[alternative childcare]

Dear itchiemayer:

I understand that you are probably a 15 year old in Boro Park who has discovered writing on the internet to be very empowering, but there are many people, Orthodox included, who find the word "shiksa" to be abhorrent. Our relatives were labeled as vermin not too long ago, u'zachartem ki ger hayitem is an operative principle if Torah is still read in your community (perhaps now its just obeying clips off of youtube).
There are ehrliche gerim even in Bobov, etc, and use of such offensive language is not to be tolerated.

[Successful Messiah]

"It must be lonely for you as one of the 15 idiots who davens in the private minyan in his house."

Why should he be lonely? He's got 15 idiots to keep him company.

[bilbul]

I remember reading online, I've no clue what site, that the Chief Rabbi of the UK attends the coronation services in Westminster Abbey.

Maybe someone knows more?

[Jon]

I suppose I was naive to expect more from the RCA. We keep hearing that it's now a post-racial era yet everyone including Pickled Herring keeps falling over themselves with these ridiculous reinforcements about Blackness. I can't even imagine what Marc Schneier did to outdo the RCA. Maybe he was jumping up & down with Rachel Batya while chanting asher kidshanu bemitzvotav vetzivanu al MLK.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | January 22, 2009 at 07:52 AM
----------------------------

It's never post-racial for you Archie. I dunno what you're trying.

[Jon]

Dear itchiemayer:

I understand that you are probably a 15 year old in Boro Park who has discovered writing on the internet to be very empowering, but there are many people, Orthodox included, who find the word "shiksa" to be abhorrent. Our relatives were labeled as vermin not too long ago, u'zachartem ki ger hayitem is an operative principle if Torah is still read in your community (perhaps now its just obeying clips off of youtube).
There are ehrliche gerim even in Bobov, etc, and use of such offensive language is not to be tolerated.

Posted by: alternative childcare | January 22, 2009 at 12:24 PM
------------------------------

The boy has learned well. Goyim are subhuman and are to be treated as such.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

I for sure trust converts for marriage than converts who feel they found the truth. Converts for marriage are more likely to stay observant because they want to keep the marriage and children etc. So called "sincere" converts are more likely to be "sincere" raelians tomorrow .

In any case with this market place of religions people who choose to be Orthodox Jews are not very stable. You born into it is one thing but consciously to go into it is another.

This aside from weirdo beheima Leib Tropper who convert intermarried couples because someone in his dream told him to do so.

[yudel]

At least here at this blog you can read all these comments that remind me of Hamlet...a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing...

my my have we jews become so weak and foolish.

we personalize everything when we live in a time of ais la asos...

but i do enjoy dropping by and getting the latest important news and of course love the national enquirer bashing of our fearless angry leader who posts the news and to you i recommend everyday listening to Live at the Filmore East the Allman Brothers great anthem-Whipping Post.

Pogo still has legs.' We have met the enemy and they are us.'..or however he said it.

[Quico]

Jon, do you consider non-christian Native Americans subhuman? If so, how come?

[Jason]

“To go into a cathedral, in this case an Episcopalian cathedral in the main sanctuary, is certainly by most accounts not appropriate," the executive director of the RCA, Rabbi Basil Herring, told JTA.

"certainly by most accounts"?

Is it certainly? Or is it by most accounts? All the usual Rabbinical apologists here have been swearing up and down that it is absolutely forbidden to ever enter a church for any reason. But if there are reliable opinions that going into a church is ok, then what's the fuss?

By the way, Ivanka's fiance is Jared Kushner, son of ex-con and billionaire Charles Kushner. Billionaires have different rules than the rest of the Jews, no matter what shul they daven in.

[alternative childcare]

Quico, I think Jon was being sarcastic.

[not brainwashed]

itchiemayer:

"If Rabbi Lookstein, or any Rabbi/Beis Din converts someone..., then that person will be judged as Jew (a higher standard of judgment),

Brainwashing in your case has worked very effectively...one that believes learning the same think (over & over again) exclusive of any other true knowledge (not truth) can only be branded as being brainwashed, however he is thought to believe he is actually learning about the world, how sad and shameful

[not brainwashed]

itchiemayer:

"If Rabbi Lookstein, or any Rabbi/Beis Din converts someone..., then that person will be judged as Jew (a higher standard of judgment),

Brainwashing in your case has worked very effectively...one that believes learning the same think (over & over again) exclusive of any other true knowledge (not truth) can only be branded as being brainwashed, however he is thought to believe he is actually learning about the world, how sad and shameful

[not brainwashed]

itchiemayer:

"If Rabbi Lookstein, or any Rabbi/Beis Din converts someone..., then that person will be judged as Jew (a higher standard of judgment),

Brainwashing in your case has worked very effectively...one that believes learning the same think (over & over again) exclusive of any other true knowledge (not truth) can only be branded as being brainwashed, however he is thought to believe he is actually learning about the world, how sad and shameful

[itchiemayer]

Alternative childcare - Very mature - you talk about how "offended" you were, and yet are incredibly sarcastic in your email. You are a hypocrite. You acted as though you were taking the high road, but you took the low one. It empowers you to be so sarcastic doesn't it, makes you feel like you're better than I, doesn't it. Again, you are a hypocrite. Go take your noxious ways, and shove them up your rear, you moron.

[Archie Bunker]

"Monsey Tzadik", you are either completely ignorant of how a convert receives a Jewish soul or you are just a jerk who is causing distress to sincere converts who read your obscene comment. There are some unstable converts who some rabbis are guilty of not filtering out but how dare you slander the rest.

[itchiemayer]

Hey you, not brainwashed...I'm not brainwashed, I have lots of other knowledge, I don't know what the heck you are talking about. I fail to see how your comments are related to mine. A Jew is judged differently than a non-Jew, and if you don't believe that you don't believe in Judaism. I don't know, maybe you don't believe in Judaism, whatever. My comment is dead on. If you disagree, that is your problem, not mine. It is interesting how so many people come across holier than thou and just love to personally attack someone. How sad and shameful that you make such hateful comments.

[Archie Bunker]

Jason, did I just see you make a general, discriminatory statement about all billionaires?

[Archie Bunker]

"I have known many converts for marriage who have become more dedicated and observant than their spouses, and have even lead their born-Jewish spouses to greater observance."

And others drag down their partner in observance.

It makes no difference as it is forbidden to accept those who convert for love. This is one of the many problems with Leib Tropper's scam.

[Yochanan Lavie]

If she later does go off the derech, we have to be mekarev as we would to any Jewish person who is gone off the derech, because after she has made her formal commitment in front of an Orthodox Beit Din she is as Jewish as you or I.

Posted by: Dave Marshall | January 22, 2009 at 10:50 AM

I volunteer to be mekarev her... very closely.

Yudel: It was Macbeth who compared life to a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing. (Sorry, it's the pedant in me). In your honor, see my parody below.

Jon: I hereby appoint you as my spiritual mentor (/humor).

M"Tz: I agree that often "insincere" marriage converts end up being better Jews than other converts, or even their born Jewish spouses. But I "resemble" that remark about people chosing Orthodoxy (even though now I'm on the service road of the Derech).

[Shmarya]

It makes no difference as it is forbidden to accept those who convert for love.

That is one opinion. There are other opinions that allow this type of conversion.

[Jason]

Jason, did I just see you make a general, discriminatory statement about all billionaires?

Actually Archie, I think my comment was more directed towards those people and shuls that fawn all over wealthy people in general (and especially billionaires) and allow them to get away with whatever, just because they are rich. At least that was my intention.

Nothing wrong with being a billionaire, although In Charlie Kushner's case he inherited most of it from his father before getting caught up in incredibly sordid dealings with politicians and his own family.

[itchiemayer]

Everyone, being an orthodox Jew is very demanding. It is necessary to be very protective of something so precious. I have non-Jewish friends, am demeaning to noone on a personal level. As an orthodox Jew, I am philosophically very conservative. I have strong opinions, but try not to attack people. Hey, if liberal Jews are offended because I take traditional orthodox views on things, too bad. I will not apologize for that. I feel sorry for those of you who criticize that. If the only orthodox Jews were liberal orthodox Jews, Judaism would also die. Any modern orthodox Jew should consider Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik a true gadol b'Yisroel. Yet, liberal orthodoxy goes against him time and time again...and he was very progressive in his thinking. The liberal orthodox - if they accidentally turn off a light on shabbos - I don't think it bothers them much. Whoops, oh well. It is symptomatic of greater problems. Hey alternative childcare,not brainwashed, etc...go ahead and slander me. By the way, to make such a big deal about the word shiksa, oy vey. I have friends who are (South) African American and are caucasian. Shouldn't we be offended by the term "African American" in reference to blacks. And woe to you Washington Redskins, Cleveland Indians, Kansas City Chiefs, and Atlanta Braves fans - so offensive. Obviously, I'm kidding - we have become so soft in this country, every little thing offends us. Ok, so this guy goes out with a non-jewish woman named Trump - the whole conversion thing is a joke. I question his commitment to Judaism, and question Trumps true reasons for converting. They should just continue to fornicate, and forget about the marriage thing. Signed, 15 year old kid from Boro Park!

[Yochanan Lavie]

I been run down, I been lied to,
I don't know why I let that mean rebbe make me a schlmiel.
He took all my money, sold me a used car.
Now he's with my learning chevrusa,
They're drinkin' Mountain Dew from a jar.

Sometimes I feel, sometimes I feel,
Like I been tied to the skilla post,
Tied to the skilla post,
Tied to the skilla post,
Oy vey, I feel like I'm plotzin'.

My chevra tell me, that I've been such a schmuck,
And I have to stand by and take it rebbe, like I've been hit by a truck.
Drown myself in vodka, and I look at my oylam .
But nothin' seems to change, the old clothes stay the same,
Makes me resemble the Golem.

Sometimes I feel, sometimes I feel,
Like I been tied to the skilla post,
Tied to the skilla post,
Tied to the skilla post,
Oy vey, I feel like I'm plotzin'.

(2x)

[Yochanan Lavie]

Here is the wedding song: (Apologies: Lou "the Jew" Reed).

Ivanka came from Palm Beach F.L.A.
Fell in love with the son of Charl- ay
Bought a sheitl on the way
shaved her hair and then she was a G.T. [gera tzedeka]
She says, hey bubbeleh, take a walk on the frum side
said, hey motik, take a walk on the frum side

Jared came from out on the island
in the business he was his abba's darling

But he never lost his keppie
even when he was dressing schleppy
He says, hey bubbeleh, take a walk on the frum side
He said, hey babe, take a walk on the frum side
and the Chasidim go:

Oy, yoy, yoy, yoy, yoy, yoy, yoy, yoy, etc.

Rabbi L. never once gave it away
everybody had to pay and pay

A convert here and a mikveh there
New York city is the place where they said
Hey boychick, take a walk on the frum side
I Said hey Rabbi, take a walk on the frum side

President Obama came and faced the nation
lookin' for soul food and inauguration.

Went to the Cathedral, you should have seen him at the Ball
They said, hey Obama, take a walk on the frum side
I said, hey Prez, take a walk on the frum side
all right, huh

Archie is just blogging away
thought he was Reb Moshe for a day

Then I guess his computer crashed
Macintosh would have helped that dash
I said, hey Arch, take a walk on the frum side
I said, hey Archie, take a walk on the frum side
and the Ethiopian girls say

Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, etc.

[Archie: Just a shout out; nothing personal. Lighten up, Dude.]

[Archie Bunker]

"That is one opinion."

At the very least it is the MAJORITY opinion.

"There are other opinions that allow this type of conversion."

You keep dragging out that dubious sounding minority opinion from a Moroccan rabbi which even if reliable does not mean the rest of the world has to accept anyone using that thin ice approach.

[bilbul]

I am quite ignorant of my religion, I'm not proud to say, but talk of receiving Jewish souls sounds like straying into hocus-pocus magic. I don't see a problem with having the concept, but making it into a property that a human being on earth can judge sounds presumptuous.

We can and should ask is if someone is obligated to the mitzvot. I haven't read any discussion in Torah about whether an Eved Kena'ani has a Jewish soul.

[Shmarya]

"That is one opinion."

At the very least it is the MAJORITY opinion.

True.

"There are other opinions that allow this type of conversion."

You keep dragging out that dubious sounding minority opinion from a Moroccan rabbi which even if reliable does not mean the rest of the world has to accept anyone using that thin ice approach.

It's more than one, more than Moroccans, more than just Sefardim.

And that one rabbi you mention was Meir Hai Uzziel, Chief Rabbi of Israel.

[Carol-Ann]

People get caught up in too many man-made religious rules.

If we reject people because they have a different religious philosopy, how does that help our spirituality?

[Dave Marshall]

Fine, Archie, if everyone followed your strictures with regard to conversion,
let's imagine what would happen:
1. a non-Jew is not allowed to convert for the sake of marriage
2. we, the Jews, presumably according to your version of Orthodoxy, are not allowed to proseltyze ever (never mind we did it successfully in Roman times), and we're supposed to Discourage all non-Jews from becoming Jewish.
3. by deduction from point 2, presumably we're not even supposed to talk to non-Jews about anything relating to the Jewish religion, if it somehow could be construed that this might possibly encourage to consider Judaism as a spiritual path
4. we're supposed to vet everyone's conversion and keep them "on approval" for a good portion of their adult lives, never mind what they said to the Beit Din, never mind how sincere the rabbis of the Beit Din thought they were- you never know those goyim backsliders (SARCASM).
5. in the meantime all these wonderful born Jews who possess wonderful Jewish souls, mind you, are assimilating like crazy.
6. most Orthodox people, while paying lip service to Jewish unity, are so afraid of being infected by the apikorsim Reform or Conservative, oy va voy, that they don't try to mekarev them, and on the contrary tacitly promote nonsense like "don't marry someone who's less observant than you, your standards might slip" (why are you so afraid that you can't influence them to observe a higher level? don't have the guts?
Isn't Torah supposed to be Truth? I believe it is. If it is, as a well-informed Orthodox person, you should be able to persuade your spouse to become more observant). I have even heard about neighborhoods in Toronto were people who used to be "Reform or Conservative apikorsim" have moved and now they only associate with other Orthodox people, and no longer associate with their former more secular friends. What are they afraid of the R/C cooties? Can't they influence them? Is their emunah so weak?
Don't get me wrong, I used to agree with Conservative, but that approval of gay marriages just made me realize how gutless they have become.
7. So all I can say is, go ahead Orthodoxim, do what you want. You can never grow as fast as the level of assimilation is currently. You don't want to accept people who convert for the sake of marriage.
You don't want to promote Judaism to non-Jews. You purposely push away less observant Jews. If you keep pushing well- meaning although apikorsim/ less observant Jews away- you know what they're going to say, scr-w you, I am not going to support your kollel/ synagogue/ day school/ charity. And that shrinking group of Modern Orthodox who bust their guts for a living, how much more financial burden can they take?
How does any of that lead to stable numbers, let alone growth?
I know, I know the old story about numbers aren't everything.
Tell that to the Karaites and the Samaritans. Both of those groups wanted to stay pure and discouraged any kind of conversion. In the middle ages the Karaites numbered a couple of million. In the 1600's the Samaritans were at least a million. Look at where they are now.
Even they have belatedly realized that they have to be open to new people wanting to join, even (horror of horrors- SARCASM) for marriage.
All I can see is good luck, Orthodoxim.
I am a traditional Jew who cannot be Conservative or Reform, but I cannot be Orthodox either, for the reasons I have stated above.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Carol Ann: I basically agree with you, but the question for us is: which of these rules are truly man made, and which are from either Scripture or from God via oral tradition. That is something I struggle with, too. And as in everything in life, if procedures are not established and followed, anarchy ensues. It's not very spiritual, true, but unfortunately necessary.

Having said that, I try to embrace individuals I disagree with, and look for their inherent worth.

[Archie Bunker]

"I haven't read any discussion in Torah about whether an Eved Kena'ani has a Jewish soul."

An Eved Kena'ani becomes a partial Jew who is required to keep mitzvos like women. I believe the formula is that he has a 25% Jewish soul as it were. He's not supposed to be freed but if he is, he becomes a 100% Jew.

[Archie Bunker]

"more than just Sefardim"

Who? MIchael Broyde, Avi Weiss & the YCT gang? Please.

"Chief Rabbi of Israel"

Whether or not he was a great rabbi, a political appointment by the Israel govt. does not add any more weight to his opinions. (But Shmarya already knew that).

[Archie Bunker]

"People get caught up in too many man-made religious rules"

G-d decides what kind of soul a person is bestowed with, not men.

[Rachel Batya]

Yochanan: The Lou Reed parody is outstanding. Nice hat tip to the Ethiopians at the end.

I didn't get the other one 'cause I'm not familiar with the song it's based on.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Rachel. I'll be here all week.

[Archie Bunker]

Dave you are mistaken (and all over the place!)

Looking for insincere converts to bolster our numbers is a grave mistake that goes against everything in Judaism.

Kiruv is a great mitzva but not at the expense of certain individuals slipping in their own observance.

I commend you for feeling disgust with the Conservative for caving in to homos but the movement has many more problems than that.

The Bad Samaritans btw are a bunch of frauds who converted to Islam & Christianity over the centuries and back when it suited them.

[maven]

archie, i think you are confusing samaritans with karaites.
love, mehitabel

[Quico]

Sometimes it's difficult to determine if people mean what they say about Native Americans. We have been called so many name in jest, and it's later minimized. I have never heard another tribal member make such a comment and call it sarcasm.

As a survivor, I was raped at age 7, cut and my body was burned. I was done in "fun" by the perp and his pals. Hard to know what to believe or believe in anymore.

best, Quico

[Quico]

Corrections: 2nd line - names; 5th line - It

A few Jewish associates have expressed an appreciation for "noble savages". It's heartbreaking.

[Quico]

Corrections: 2nd line - names; 5th line - It

A few Jewish associates have expressed an appreciation for "noble savages". It's heartbreaking.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Quico: May God comfort you, and punish the perps.

[Dave Marshall]

Well, Archie, if you want, you can be the Rav of the Incredible Shrinking Judaism.
Do you realize the demographic trends?
Do you really think that maybe 2 million each having families of 6 can reverse this trend? Do you really think so?
And how will these families of 6 kids or more manage if they have pushed away their funders, the "apikorsim Reform and Conservative"? I believe the figure of Modern Orthodox in the New York area is about 275,000 people. I realize there are more MO in other parts of the world. But can they support the families with 6 kids in addition to their own families?
So you seem to want quality rather than quantity? Fine, but you'll have to realize you run the risk of declining and declining numbers.

[Rachel Batya]

Quico, sarcasm is pretty basic to Jewish culture, but you're not the first person around here to take a sarcastic remark seriously. It's not always easy to tell when you're just reading online print whether something is said in jest.

Re: the "noble savages" remark--From the time I was a child, I knew intuitively that the version of American history and the caricature of native Americans in my textbooks wasn't true. When I was 13 or 14, I learned for the first time about the genocide of the native peoples and have become very aware of all the ways in which it is minimized and denied. I wish this were not the case, as it deserves to be told again and again so that everyone understands.

Finally, as one survivor to another, I send you prayers and blessings for healing. Be well.

[Itchiemayer]

Wow, the reform and conservative have sacrificed quality for quantity and they have shrunk. Orthodox numbers are on the rise. Hashem never promised that the Jewish people would be great in quantity, and it seems as though some are trying to measure it that way. Those of you who seem to be making up your own brand of Judaism, that is your right as a Human being, given free choice by G-d, to do. Just admit that you are doing it. Geez, aside from one of my siblings and distant relatives in Israel, my family (a rather large one) has no other orthodox Jews, not even conservative, most unaffiliated, several who have intermarried. I have not disowned anyone, still go to family events, etc..yes, it is true if they are having bar/bas mitzvahs in non-ortho venues I don't go, but I still acknowledge it with a gift, a mazel tov etc.. save for those cases where the Mother is not Jewish (some cases both parents), and then I admittedly kind of let it pass on by without acknowledgment. So I am guilty of not acknowledging a "Jewish" "simcha" of a non-Jew. Sounds fair to me. I have to be true to my G-d before anything else. You might say, well go to the goyishe bar mitzva because maybe your cousin who is Jewish will be inspired by you, become frum, etc...like one in a 10 billion chance, not worth turning my back on Hashem and acting like the event is ok like a mixed marriage etc..so to sum it up, Judaism may be shrinking, but true Torah Judaism is on the rise. Anyhow, there is only one Judaism anyway, and it is orthodox. The reform and conservative, reconstructionist etc..many of them are Jews as much as me, but it is not the practice of Judaism. Not only do they turn their backs on the oral law which I can see how some would see this as a gray area, but they turn their back on the written word of Hashem as with gay marriage. That is pure, unadultrated apikorsis (heresy). If you do that you don't believe in the Torah, bible or whatever you want to call it. The Torah and the people who learn and practice it keep the world going. If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in Torah. What should I do as an orthodox Jew, act like non-orthodox beliefs are ok? I can't do it. I can treat you with respect and kindness, but I can't give affirmation to your way of life and to your beliefs. When I commit aveirahs and am aware of them, I don't blame hashem and the Torah, I say "my bad" and hopefully feel lousy about it. Many of you want to do what you want to do, and then act as though G-d didn't really mean we had to keep shabbos, not have pepperoni pizza, give 10-20% of our earnings to tzedakah, learn Torah on a regular basis, etc...

[maven]

hey, pious little itchie, "Geez" is a euphemism for Jesus, which of course proves my point about contemporary ultra-orthodoxy being defined by Christian agendas.

[Dave Marshall]

Itchie, believe me I am on record here as saying
1. I cannot accept the (American) Conservative's stand on gay marriage- it is anti-Torah. However Israeli Masorti is still not accepting this.
2. I agree that arguing about the oral law is debatable, but one cannot go against
the written Tanach.
Although you are a reasonable guy, and I am sure you do not take that "my way or the highway" approach to your fellow Jew, believe my friend, there are many many Orthodox people who do take that attitude.
I only pray that our actions may flow out of the confidence that since Torah is Truth we need not be afraid of being influenced by others, and we can influence others.
Sadly many people who are claim they are Orthodox seem to be fearful of other Jews.
If you don't influence them to keep the Torah, they are going to disappear, and sorry to say on a cynical note, they'll take the funding with them, if that's a consideration. Not for you, maybe, but for some Orthodox people it is.

[itchiemayer]

Maven, I actually considered that as I was writing it. However, it does not prove squat. I live in a majority christian country so those things will unfortunately happen from time to time. I am not perfect, but as usual, those who seem to be uncomfortable with orthodoxy resort to name-calling and to sarcastic comments.

[itchiemayer]

Dave, it is refreshing to read posts that have a nice tone, and are not mean-spirited. Thanks. I do believe money should never come at the expense of even an iota of Torah values.

You do make a wonderful point about some Jews who won't even acknowledge someone not frum like them, or non-Jews. I try to be a kiddush Hashem, and a genuine mentsch when dealing with all people. I have non-Jewish friends/acquantances who live in one of the Jewish sections of the city, and some of their orthodox Jewish neighbors will not speak to them, say hi, or acknowledge them. This is totally not, in my opinion, proper behavior.
Also, it is ok with people who believe Torah is truth to still be wary to some degree of outsiders. I may be orthodox, but I know that I am human and can slip up at a moment's notice. KNowing Torah is truth does not guarantee that one will be strong at all times and do the right thing. Remember the saying "woe to the rasha (evil one), woe to his neighbor. In other words, we do need to monitor who we "hang" with. Nevertheless to not be minimally neighborly for example is wholly inexcusable. Again, thank you very much for your common decency in your posting!

[Dave Marshall]

Itchie, thanks for your kind words. You don't realize, after you build your confidence in your observance, which I am sure you already have, you won't slip up easily. It's like a child learning to tell the truth- once it becomes an ingrained habit, they will never lie, short of some traumatic event.
I agree with you about "the company you keep", but these other Jews are not criminals. They just don't agree with your ideas. But I am sure that by engaging them, and with the non-Jews in your neighbourhood, you already have made a difference.
You see, being Sephardic, my family was never used to these movements. Officially, with Sephardim, everyone is traditional- some do less mitzvot and some do more. But the synagogue and the rabbi is always traditional (Orthodox if one has to give it a name) and the door is always open and everyone is welcome. This is actually very good, because then people can talk about their disagreements and the standard of observance is not dropped, but tolerance made for people's idiosyncrasies and since the door is always open, many people do come back.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Itchie, I wonder about your statement "Hashem never promised that the Jewish people would be great in quantity."
I seem to recall reading something about "numerous as the stars of heaven and the sands of the seashore." והרבה ארבה את זרעך ככוכבי השמים. Were you out at kiddush club the twice a year this was read in the Akedah, or am I mistaken at the meaning of this passage?

[itchiemayer]

I will need to review this, but my initial thought is that Avrohom's descendants include the B'nei Yishmael. Without reviewing this passage with the Ramban and Rashi for sure, I am still confident in saying Hashem never said the Jewish nation would be great in numbers. Moreover, the Arab people are certainly numerous and clearly descend from Avrohom, thus validating Hashem's promise.

[Ger tzedek]

Archie,
Where in the Bible or the Gemorah (or any posek worth his salt) did you get this nonsense about "Jewish souls" being granted to gerim? How does one know that one has been granted one (given that souls are invisible)? Is it through that wonderful X-Ray vision granted to gedolim (daas Torah) ?

Ooh, me teacher, me. You got it from the Zohar. A 13th century racist forgery more influenced by Medieval Spanish Catholicism´s doctrines on women, infidels and ersatz "spirituality" than by any semblance of Rabbinic source.

Enjoy running your little world where you make up the rules.

[omg]

Heavy duty!! I'm folowing all previous jcomments, and they do hold my interest. Alot of high opinions, so I might as well include mine.
Should not a rabbi have attended the inauguration?? I think so, and I'm glad he did, and I also think that there's too much separatism not only between Jews and "others", but amongst Jews ourselves. I don't know what category you would place me in, which group, which label, should be mine?
Did G-d make it so that Jews should ignore and be rude to non-Jews?
I don't think so.

And if no rabbi attended the inauguration, what would that have meant? Would people think that Jews weren't invited? Or would it appear as if Jews disapproved?
Can't win for losing, a no-win situation.

YL, your musical talent knows no bounds. Thank you, and Itchie, keep up the good work. You are a father of the utmost best.
And all who post, thanks for the entertainment.

[Dave Marshall]

Ger Tzedek,
I agree with you 100 percent.

[itchiemayer]

OMG - Thanks for the high praise. I like to think of this site as a place where we can have a free exchange of ideas. Sadly, it can get a bit heated and the personal attacks are not something I condone. Also, I at times I try to inject a little humor and humility. I am not perfect and don't want to come across like a pompous you know what. I strongly believe my opinions are correct, but welcome views to the contrary. I have changed my opinions every now and then. In fact, I have been voting since 1982, and the first non-Democrat I ever voted for was Bush in 2004.
This could come as a shock to those of you who have been reading my posts, all recent since I just started "contributing" my self proclaimed wisdom! Anyhow, because I am a former moderately liberal democrat, I know how the other side thinks.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Ger tzedek - I believe the idea of Jewish souls in gerim is in the Kuzari, a bit earlier than the Zohar of de Leon. However, it may be that he said that they were Jewish souls initially implanted into non-Jewish bodies, and they were merely fulfilling their destinies.

And Itchie - while you make a good point the Yishma'elim might be considered the numerous descendants promised to Avraham, I would say that the covenantal promise to him - reiterated several times in Bereshit - includes possession of the Land, blessing, and numerous descendants, all in exchange for a tiny bit of flesh. I do not think you would say that the B'rit goes through Yishma'el. Right?

Shabbat Shalom to one and all. שבת שלום

Which reminds me: In your shuls, on Shabbos M'vorchim, when does kiddush club start?

[Archie Bunker]

Since "Ger Tzedek" speaks with such contempt, I suspect that, if he is any type of convert at all, he is through the Conservative.

I never said that I'm able to detect a Jewish soul with some scanner device but it is common knowledge that if a conversion is properly performed, a Yiddishe neshomah is received.

Only someone irked over the rejection of various conversions would fly into a rage over this.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, OMG.

Someone asked, a million years ago, if the Chief Rabbi of the UK attends the coronation. I believe he waits outside the cathedral, but is considered a dignitary in the ceremony nevertheless. I know the Chief Rabbi's mohel does perform (non-milah) circumcision on the royal princes. No joke. (I hope not with MPB- joke).

[maven]

But there is good reason to be irked over the rejection of various conversions. Many frum and sincere people married or adopted through that bet din, sent there by their Roshei Yeshivot in Israel, and suddenly find that they are under a threat of having their kids be removed from yeshivot (as apparently happened in Neve Yerushalayim already) or banned from marriage, even after living their whole lives as frum Jews. What could be more horrible than that? So I suppose you are not "irked" since you believe you are safe. But what if the next pashkeval says that children of parents who write on blogs and use computers have to leave the yeshiva? Mr Bunker, you'd be in trouble, too. If you were in Israel, you'd be suspect. I know a prominent Rav in Benei Berak who was using a computer to edit his seforim, and was forced to downgrade to an old one less his kids get into trouble when company came.

[Yochanan Lavie]

IMO, not that anyone asked, anyone who wants to be a Jew has a Jewish neshome. However, proper procedures must be in place to make it official, including a committment to at most mitzvot. A chareidi lifestyle should be optional for those so inclined, not mandatory.

[Yochanan Lavie]

One more thing: In a time of national emergency, less stringent mitzvah requirements should be made. Like for Soviet partial-Jews, lest an underclass of resentful gentiles who cannot marry be created. Or in the case of rampant intermarriage where at least the couple's children can be Jewish and therefore mekarav (rather than lost altogether). We are in a time of national emergency. It's easy to see a strong Israel, crowded yeshivot, and shelves groaning under the weight of Artscroll and delude yourself that all is well. But we are hemoragging membership in Galut, and the Arabs threaten Israel demographically. The rabbis make exceptions for sha'at hadchach- this is one of them.

[Dave Marshall]

Exactly right, Yochanan, that's what I was trying to say.

[Ger tzedek]

Oh, ad hominem attack! You did not answer my question. Where is this in the sources?

[Rover]

Well, look who's sticking up for Rabbi Lookstein (and calling the RCA "an embarrassment" to boot!)

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=3617

[p2q4]

This week we read in the Torah that Moshe married Tziporah, a non-Jew (yes, it was before the Torah was given), and many commentators discuss whether or not all souls were present at Sinai, even non-Jewish ones; if so, then sincere converts are merely re-accepting Judaism.

[Debby]

I contacted Rabbi Basil Herring to notify him that a member Rabbi of the RCA conducted a Jewish marriage without a civil marriage license. Basically, the couple duped the Rabbi into performing the ceremony so that the bride could keep collecting alimony from her ex-husband. When the Rabbi found out what the couple had done and how they had involved him, he was mortified. I wanted Rabbi Herring to make a statement on the RCA web site that Jewish marriages without civil licenses are not acceptable. Rabbi Herring disagreed. He actually thinks it's OK for Rabbis to break American civil law. The concept of Dina D'malchuta Dina isn't one he feels applies to Orthodox Jews. Rabbi Herring is bad for the Jews.