NY Times: Lamech, Noah "Orthodox" Rabbis

Mr. Sulzberger, have ArtScroll's editors taken over your newspaper?

I ask because, In your newspaper's coverage of Tuesday night's YU panel on Ethics and Kashrut, we find the following:

"The realm of kashrut, or Jewish dietary law, which for 5,000 years has been the exclusive domain of orthodox authorities…"

What is wrong with this statement?

In brief:

1. According to the Torah's chronology (which very, very few secular scholars take seriously), 5000 years ago Abraham was not yet born.

2. That means there were no, for want of a better term, Jews.

3. That also means there were no kosher laws as we know it.

4. Orthodoxy did not exist until the Enlightenment.

5. Rabbis did not exist until 200 years before the common era – at the earliest.

6. Archeological excavations in Israel – even of exclusively Jewish towns – are full of non-kosher fish bones and shellfish remains.

7. There is no evidence of any Biblical character keeping kosher.

If you question what I'm saying, Mr. Sulzberger, please place a call to Hebrew University's Department of Jewish History or call Hershel Shanks at the Biblical Archeology Society in Washington.

I'll bet Yeshiva University has Jewish history professors who will tell you the same. So will professors at the Jewish Theological Seminary, Hebrew Union College, New York University, and Columbia University. So you could confirm this information without even making a long distance phone call. You wouldn't even have to dial 917.

Thank you.

Label Says Kosher; Ethics Suggest Otherwise
By PAUL VITELLO

What it means to be kosher — the nub of a debate sparked in May by sweeping labor abuse charges against the Orthodox Jewish owners of the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the nation — was pondered Tuesday night in a panel discussion at Yeshiva University in Upper Manhattan, the academic nexus of Orthodox Judaism.

It was, for the most part, a subdued and scholarly discussion about ritual law, Jewish ethics and what to do if you suspect that the kosher meat on your table has been butchered and packed by 16-year-old Guatemalan girls forced to work 20-hour days under threat of deportation, as alleged in a recent case.

“Is it still possible to consider something ‘kosher certified’ if it is produced under unethical conditions?” asked Gilah Kletenik, one of the organizers of the student group that arranged the session, which drew an overflow crowd of 500, most of them students.

In keeping with the Talmudic tradition embodied by the rabbis on the panel, the answer seemed to be yes and no.

“The basic underpinning of Jewish tradition is ethics,” said Rabbi Menachem Genack, a Yeshiva dean and the chief executive of kosher certification for the Orthodox Union, the group that oversees kosher standards in 8,000 food manufacturing plants around the world, including about 25 meatpacking facilities in the United States.

But he said the process of producing food that is certifiably kosher according to Jewish law is one thing; the conditions in which that process is undertaken are another. “The issues are not obvious sometimes,” he said.

In a more pointed comment, Rabbi Avi Shafran, who has defended the prerogative of the Orthodox rabbinate against what he sees as well-meaning but misguided efforts to add social-justice protections to the criteria for the production of kosher food, said, “Lapses of business ethics, animal rights issues, worker rights matters — all of these have no effect whatsoever on the kosher value.”

The realm of kashrut, or Jewish dietary law, which for 5,000 years has been the exclusive domain of orthodox authorities, has received new scrutiny from a broad spectrum of Jews since federal agents raided an Agriprocessors plant in Postville, Iowa, on May 12, arresting 389 illegal immigrants. The owners, Aaron Rubashkin and his son, Sholom, members of a prominent Orthodox family in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, were charged with bank fraud and employing under-age workers.

After the raid, workers’ organizations said that many Agriprocessors employees had long complained of frequent accidents and forced overtime but did not take their claims to the authorities because they feared deportation.

The workers’ stories gave a boost to a kosher-reform campaign known as Hekhsher Tzedek (in Hebrew, kosher righteousness), which was begun in 2006 by Rabbi Morris J. Allen, a Conservative rabbi from Mendota Heights, Minn., who has long promoted ethical reforms in kosher meat plants.

Rabbi Allen said on Wednesday that though he “would have loved” to have been invited to the discussion, “the important thing is that the topic of what constitutes good kosher food production has been elevated.”

“We are proud that people in all parts of the Jewish community are taking our agenda seriously,” he added.

The four-member panel was composed of Rabbi Genack, Rabbi Shafran, Rabbi Basil Herring — executive director of the Rabbinical Council of America, an Orthodox group — and Shmuly Yanklowitz, whose views probably came closest to those of the reform-minded Rabbi Allen.

Mr. Yanklowitz, a recent Yeshiva graduate and co-founder of Uri L’Tzedek, which describes itself as “the Orthodox social justice movement,” told the audience he had visited Postville and met a former Agriprocessors employee named Maria, a young woman from Guatemala.

“Maria worked in hot, slavelike conditions from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. so that we could have our kosher meat,” he said.

In an extended address that was at times Jeremiah-like in its condemnations, he called on the audience to rise to “a higher moral standard” in addition to adhering to the strict guidelines of kashrut as defined by traditional Jewish law.

“The consumer of goods produced immorally is morally culpable,” he said.

At the moment, Mr. Yanklowitz’s group has focused mainly on improving conditions for workers in kosher restaurants.

Rabbi Allen’s group has proposed something more comprehensive and problematic for Orthodox authorities: a seal of approval, the Hekhsher Tzedek seal, which he proposes adding to kosher products whose producers meet certain standards of employee safety and benefits, humane treatment of animals and environmental protection.

The campaign has received support from prominent members of the Conservative and Reform movements, but so far not from Orthodox circles, despite general agreement that worker protections are important in kosher food plants.

What may seem to reformers to be a mistaken separation of Jewish ritual law and Jewish ethics, however, is seen by the Orthodox as a defense of tradition.

“There is nothing in Jewish law that conflates the status of kosher food with the way the food is produced,” Rabbi Shafran said in a phone interview Wednesday. “What sticks in our craw,” he said, referring to the proposed seal, “is that it is following the zeitgeist rather than following the law. It falsifies the integrity of Jewish law.”

To be clear, he said, “Ethics is vitally important in Judaism.” Unethical acts, like illegal acts, should be punished according to the laws that apply. But the rules of what defines food as kosher were written in the Torah by divine agency and cannot be changed, he said.

Shlomit Cohen, 21, a senior at the university’s Stern College for Women and president of the Social Justice Society, a student group representative of a new wave of social activism among young Orthodox Jews, said she appreciated Rabbi Shafran’s point of view and “his desire to retain respect for the authority of legal tradition.”

“But this is more than a technical legal issue,” she said. “Change is needed, and if it is not coming from the leadership we have, it will have to come from others.”

Comments

[Dovid Levine]

"
4. Orthodoxy did not exist until the Enlightenment.
"
It might not have been called orthodoxy, but it was synonymous in everything but name. If you werent practicing Judaism(read: orthodox), then you were ostracized from the community and not considered.
This has been so since the destruction of the second temple.

The name Orthodox might have been created after the enlightenment, but the beliefs were the same. (See Mitnagdim, before the Chassidish movement named them such).

[Shmarya]

The name Orthodox might have been created after the enlightenment, but the beliefs were the same. (See Mitnagdim, before the Chassidish movement named them such).

Surprisingly, this is false – as any historian of the period worth his or her salt will tell you.

[Yochanan Lavie]

It's a matter of faith, unless compelling evidence exists otherwise. Pig bones just meant that the prophets were right, and people were disregarding the torah. Many rabbis say that Judaism didn't really exist before Sinai, so we don't have to retroactively read Abraham et al as normative Orthodox Jews, the way other rabbis do.

Denominational Judaism is indeed an Ashkenazic phenomenon from the 17th century (including Orthodoxy). Throughout history, people were more or less observant, according to their community's standards and interpretation of the torah. But to retroactively saw that Avraham greeted the malachim with Kedem wine and Pas Yisroel cakes is an anachronism.

[sage]

After several libations, I watched the YU broadcast.

The audio was not up to the best quality and I had trouble understanding some of the comments.

My summary opinions:

1. Genack and his cronies gave pitiful and fossilized performances, demonstrating that any hope that they were going to address the current Kosher crises seriously, are in vain.

2. Rabbi Yanklowitz gave an incredible performance that Kosher and Ethics are totally joined and backed up his views with authoritative Orthodox Jewish sources.

3. Shlomit Cohens' statement: “But this is more than a technical legal issue,” she said. “Change is needed, and if it is not coming from the leadership we have, it will have to come from others.”

[critical_minyan]

the rabbinic defenders of Kashrut without ethics are cornered into an indefensible position. they are basically saying, "who cares about mistreatment of people and workers."
they are put in this position because they will not grant any moral authority to conservative rabbis such as rabbi allen.
this issue has come to the forefront now because of the brazen misbehavior of the Rubashkins.
It is doubtful in one year whether this issue will still be a hot topic, or if it will peter out as the Rubashkins stew like an overnight kugel in federal prison.

[Chicago Samson]

Lamech was a murderer but he still kept kosher?????

Rubashkin exploits people, yet he calls himself kosher.

Kinda funny, no?

[sage]

What isn't funny, is the fact that the Rubashkins would never have been able to get away with what they did, if the OU and other Kosher certifying agencies overseeing their operations, were doing their job properly.

The leadership in these agencies is equally guilty for what has transpired and belong in prison, as well.

[Nachum]

Shmarya, you don't live in New York, do you? 917 is mostly used for cell phones here, and you have to dial the area code even if you're calling a number with the same one as yours.

So much for one error. The rest of your "complaint" is just silly. Non-kosher remains found in no way means that kosher laws weren't Orthodox- you can go into 90% of Jewish homes in the US and find non-kosher food. Give me a break.

OK, so, 5,000 is a mistake. Big deal. "For 2,000 years, kashrut has been defined by Orthodox standards." Happy? Oh, the word "Orthodox" wasn't used. Again, big deal. They didn't call themselves "Jews" either.

That wipes out all but your last point. As to that one, there's plenty of evidence. Have you ever actually, you know, *read* Tanach?

[yidandahalf]

This matter will not go away critical_minyan, at least not in as far as the animal rights' vegan types go. It will if anything get bigger. And remember it was the Peta undercover video that started it. Unhappily for us Jews, Ko$her $laughter is the lightening rod and times are changing.

[joshua]

ok for those of you keeping score at home here are some other myths etc i was taught in hebrew skool:
(shelter rock jewish center in long island)

hebrew was the first spoken language

hebrew was the first writing system and existed at the time of ramses II
(hebrew comes from old phoencian which came from hieroglyphics)

torah or jews came up with the seven day week
(nope its more of a babylonian thing)

there is only one version of torah

the whole exodus story

the continuity of us as an ancient people from abe
(white people aren't from the middle east qv hapmap)

the invisible god with no properties as a jewish idea
(moses saw god's butt on sinai as torah says)

judaism is founded on ethics
(its a magical system and just a form of witchcraft)

when you sleep you soul goes up to heaven
( i really was taught this and thus mock ortho nuts openly)

nonjewish girls aren't as faithful as jewish ones

jews never hit their wives

rabbis are honest and good and teach truth

there are supernatural beings such as baal yhvh gabriel et alia

torah is truth
(the sabbath law is based on flat earth theory)

its evil to mock talmud scholars

tefillin is a holy thing
(its just a gay bondange ritual that got incorporated into the ritual)

rabbis understand ancient hebrew perfectly
(they can't pronouce yhvh because they don't know how)

eh thats enough for now.

[Archie Bunker]

"the Torah's chronology (which very, very few secular scholars take seriously)"

DUH! Hey genius, while you thought you were taking a swipe at the Torah (and it's Al-mighty author while you were at it), you seem to have forgotten the elementary rule of "ain mukdem umeucher batorah". That there is no chronological order to the Bible.

But as far as the Patriarch, what's your bogus "proof" this time that Abraham didn't live circa 1948 (Jewish calendar)?

[Archie Bunker]

"there were no kosher laws as we know it"

There were select individuals who kept the Torah like Adam & Noah.

[Archie Bunker]

"Orthodoxy did not exist until the Enlightenment"

Orthodox Judaism was around since day one. Maybe no secular figures CALLED IT orthodoxy until the so called "Enlightenment" era.

Incredible how Shmarya will come up with any revisionist history if he thinks it will convince people to abandon their observance.

[Archie Bunker]

" Rabbis did not exist until 200 years before the common era – at the earliest."

Sigh.

The Talmud did not give official rabbi titles left & right until such time but the scholars that lived in previous eras were even greater than their Mishnaic descendants and certainly rendered halachic decisions which makes them rabbis.

Are you denying Moses was a rabbi?

You're really on a roll today with this kind of baloney. Need I remind you, you're not running a deli anymore, slapping Aaron's Best on stale bread?

[Archie Bunker]

"Archeological excavations in Israel – even of exclusively Jewish towns – are full of non-kosher fish bones and shellfish remains"

So what? They were used for things other than feeding people.

One sea creature was used for blue techeilis dye for instance.

[Archie Bunker]

"There is no evidence of any Biblical character keeping kosher."

So basically, you are denying all the ancient texts that say they did keep kosher because you will conveniently claim there are no witnesses alive to testify to it.

You are really an evil man, just like the others who spend their lives trying to remove G-d from the world.

[Archie Bunker]

The title contains an ignorant error, but what else is new on this blog?

The name is Lemech who is only called Lamech at the end of a verse because of the "piska" in Hebrew grammar.

[Archie Bunker]

"You wouldn't even have to dial 917."

917 is a local area code so he would have to dial it to reach most of their cell phones.

[steve]

The realm of kashrut, or Jewish dietary law, which for 5,000 years has been the exclusive domain of orthodox authorities…"

Change 5,000 years to 3,319 years. I don't think the NY Times should have to recall today's paper and reprint it for that error. Nor do I think any letters to the editor are necessary, or this entire post for that matter. What's a couple of thousand years here and there to people who believe that the world has existed for billions of years anyway?

[Archie Bunker]

Notice how Shmarya ignored the most important part of the NY Times article about the continued dishonesty of Shafran & Genack.

SHmarya decided to instead attack the Jewish religion instead of the individuals corrupting it.

Misery loves company and Shmarya's main goal is that everyone cease being observant just as he has. Rubashkin and other topics are just platforms he launches off of to attack Judaism itself while ignoring the excuse he used as entry point.

[C-G]

As recently as the first part of the 19th century, "Reform" congregations, at least in the northeast US, employed shochtim and built (and used mikvaot- which, according to historians, is more than you can say about some of the "orthodox" communities of that era, btw). Revisionist THAT.

[Archie Bunker]

C-G, you're not making any sense.

(If you even had a point, it has nothing to do with this argument.)

The Reform moved later in century to abolish any vestige of kashruth & mikvah as official policy.

There were hardly any Orthodox Jews in America in the early 1800s. There were a few rabbis whose congregations were mostly non-religious. The Reform existed in greater number because it was easier for Germans to immigrate than Eastern European Jews. These early Reform were like Shmarya, they detested their fellow Jews who they snobbily viewed as primitive neanderthals and even tried to make life difficult for them.

And while, you are at it, why don't you recount for us the fistfights that early Reform leader Wise was known for in temple?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Reporters tend to be experts in nothing, so they write what they think they heard, what they wanted to hear, or what they heard or read from another source, that source not necessarily having a Ph.D in the field.

This is why page 4 of the NY Times is always devoted to corrections.

As to placing Avraham Avinu in the Early Bronze Period rather that Middle Bronze, maybe they're just too much into Eblaite Studies.

The Great Myth of Judaism is the one at the very beginning of Avot. They wrote "Moshe received Torah at Sinai and passed it down..who passed it down..who passed it down...all the way to WE WHO ARE WRITING THIS, SO WE'RE IN CHARGE! We tell you what's right, and what the Torah says." If you believe that, then OF COURSE you believe there was always one orthodoxy (and Sarah imenu lit Shabbos candles, and all the Avot wore Payos).

[David]

"But the rules of what defines food as kosher were written in the Torah by divine agency and cannot be changed, he said."

So, Rabbi Shafran, can I get a heckscher on the food I serve at my strip club?

[Archie Bunker]

Instead of listening to know-nothings like Shmarya and the Office of the Chief Babbler, try looking into scholarly resources on the subject.

Sefer Parashas Derachim gets into the technicals of when Judaism & Torah started. Yalkut Meam Loez on Genesis(original Ladino translated by Rabbi Kaplan for Moznayim) has a good backgrounder on the tradition passed down.

[critical_minyan]

yid and a half,
i don't think this story will be a big story in a year from now.
i think that the kosher meat plants will change their ways to be a little more compliant and make sure not to be such chazers.
without nat lewin advising them, ultra-orthodox jews will be much less blatant of their attitude that they are above the law.
Once that takes place this furor will die down.

[Archie Bunker]

Joshua, do you really think we give a rat's behind what you were taught in some two bit Conservative Sunday School in Nassau County and what your twisted take on it is?

[Archie Bunker]

Jews were ostracized from way before the 2nd temple era.

Tzlofchod was hauled into beis din for carrying wood outside the eruv before the Jews crossed the Jordan.

Shmarya is just blowing a lot of nonsense and tells us to just take his word that unnamed "scholars" say so, without even explaining their "reasoning".

[Archie Bunker]

It's also an old story that various heretics and atheists like to go into the realm of Bible "scholarship" so they can legitimize their warped philosophies and push them to the masses.

Kind of a like a certain blogger in his underwear up in Minnesota.

And similarly, pedophiles seek employment where they have access to children.

[C-G]

The point, Archie, is that "orthodox" is often a misleading and elitist misnomer, frequently used for the purpose of de-legitimizing those who may be similar in practice but differ in ideology.

"Observant Jews" have historically had authority over what is and isn't kosher. And historically, it's the ones who call(ed) themselves "Orthodox" who've tallied up the most kasrush scandals.

As for Rabbi Wise, he arrived mid-century as a young hot-headed reformer and had, shall we say... adjustment issues". How unusual, though- a rabbi who actually came to blows with members of his congregation! Most rabbis just keep those thoughts deep, deep inside. Ironically, the issue started over congregants who insisted on keeping their stores open on Shabbat (he was opposed). And before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, consider that he, along with his (orthodox) friend and colleague, Rabbi Isaac Leeser, tried to form the first rabbinic union- which failed at the time, but later re-emerged as the RCA.

[Archie Bunker]

"historically, it's the ones who call(ed) themselves "Orthodox" who've tallied up the most kasrush scandals"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_San_Gennaro

Considering that most Reform, Conservative, etc, don't even keep kosher, that's like saying that most scandals surrounding the San Gennaro festival have Italian involvement as opposed to Irish or WASP.

And mind you, there have been plenty of scandals with Conservative fingerprints all over it like those shmucks from Long Island who sued NY State when they were caught by inspectors for kashrus violations and the secular owners of Matzoh companies fined millions by the Justice Dept for price fixing.

[Archie Bunker]

Isaac Wise was actually arrested by Albany police after he assaulted the temple president.

It must have been a pretty bad assault as fistfights rarely led to arrests in those days.

[Archie Bunker]

" Ironically, the issue started over congregants who insisted on keeping their stores open on Shabbat (he was opposed)."

More baloney.

This is what actually happened which shows how "religious" he was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Mayer_Wise

He soon began agitating for reforms in the service, and his was the first Jewish congregation in the United States to introduce family pews in the synagogue. A mixed choir, and confirmation were also among the innovations introduced by Wise, who even went so far as to count women in forming a minyan or religious quorum.

In 1850, a fistfight between Wise and the synagogue's president caused a split in the Albany community

[C-G]

Oh, BS, Archie. Ever since Jews concentrated in urban areas (late 1800's-ish), "orthodox authorities", usually of eastern European origin, have dictated what's kosher (and often lied about what was, in reality, not). The Jews outside these areas continued on with their own small enterprises and kept out of the politics as much as they could.

Nowadays, a company couldn't hire a Conservative shochet and/or mashgiach and expect to stay in business- but not for any reason necessarily related to actual kashrut. While in the meantime, orthodox shochtim and mashgichim (anyone heard any news lately about some Iowa meatpacking plant?...) are doing a worse job turning out kosher meat than your local McDonalds.

[Archie Bunker]

There were a few scam artists in those days who were opportunists, moving in where they could manipulate for their benefit. There were also very prominent rabbis like UOJ's grandfather who battled them to the finish.

Nowadays, the honorable rabbis are not in positions of power but have been usurped by corrupt power brokers at the OU and elsewhere who are covering for Rubashkin. UOJ's battle is to get them removed.

And what planet are you on if you think Jews that follow halacha will eat from Conservative "shochtim"?

More Orthodox Jews than you think by the way do not eat from Rubashkin which is why Genack, Lerner and company fought so hard to defend Rubashkin to the public.

[C-G]

I can't believe I'm here arguing about Rabbi Isaac Wise, but the man had received smicha from the Prague Bet Din, Rabbi Hirsch was one of his early influences, and he went on to serve happily as rabbi for the half of the congregation that stuck with him.

I'm sorry you have such problems with mixed seating and women counting in a minyan that you have such resentment toward a great leader whose ideology you reject. I guess that shows you're orthodox.

[C-G]

I'll take an honest shomer mitzvot Conservative shochet over a crooked orthodox one any day of the week.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Re Isaac Mayer Wise and the Great Albany Fistfight of Rosh Hashanah 1850:
Wise was informed the day before that he was fired as Rabbi of Beth El.(It was a combination of his reformist tendancies, and the fact that he had interviewed for another job which would have breeched his contract). He showed up in shul anyway, and when it time to take the Sefer Torah from the Aron - Sulzer's Ein Kamocha is the accompanying music, he wrote - he went to his customary spot on the bima to open the Aron. The president pushed him aside, his hat fell off, and the fistfight started. The Albany Police were called, and shlepped them all away. Ten Days later on Yom Kippur there was a new shul - Ansche Emeth. Eventually Wise prevailed in Court, and was awarded the sum of $1000, which he turned down, saying the moral victory was enough.
BTW the Mother Church of Beth El and the wayward son Ansche Emeth re-merged a generation later. (המבין יבין )

[Fleishike Kishke]

“... animal rights issues, worker rights matters — all of these have no effect whatsoever on the kosher value.” Really? Last I read one of the components of kosher was a “smooth blade” to minimize any pain the animal feels. So “animal rights” seem to be a definite component of kosher slaughter. If Torah concerns itself with animal rights would it not also concern itself with the rights of workers in meat-packing? There are ample proofs that Torah concerns itself with workers rights in other areas.
As for the Patriarchs “following the Torah ...” Abraham may have made an “erev tavshilin” (as Chabadniks are wont to repeat) but Isaac was waiting for Esau to bring meat back from the hunt. Was Esau going to shoot the deer with an arrow, or spear, or properly shekht it? And if he was going to shekht it according to “Jewish law,” I guess the evil Esaus of the world have long been involved with kosher slaughter ...

[maven]

Archie, if I may harass you in a friendly way, do you have a good source earlier than a late midrash for this, who's goal was to explain who "benos tzelofchod" might be (personally I think "tzelofchod" will be owed a big apology during moshiach tzeit, as will the actual eved avrohom if he wasn't Eliezer) :

Tzlofchod was hauled into beis din for carrying wood outside the eruv before the Jews crossed the Jordan.

And do you think that the argument that unkosher bones in Jewish cities represents techeiles, the koi (kvi?), and the other animals that existed only for the mishkan, is a winning argument? I think its only recently that midrashim, which are one attempt to deal with ambiguities in the text, have acquired the mantle of "scientific truth". But then, who cares these days what the Rambam and Ramban said about midrashim? :)

[additup]

But as far as the Patriarch, what's your bogus "proof" this time that Abraham didn't live circa 1948 (Jewish calendar)?

He didn't say that Avraham did not live back then, he just pointed out that by the dating derived from the Torah, 5769 - 1948 does not equal 5000. (3821, rather)

[Sarah]

"tefillin is a holy thing
(its just a gay bondange ritual that got incorporated into the ritual)"
Great interpretation. Might even explain some Chabadniks quietly coming on to guys when they put tefillin on them.

[Dave]

Speaking of tefillin, I read a study by someone (I forget who) that the placement of tefillin actually agrees with the principles and is in conformity with Chinese traditional medicine.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Tefllin shel rosh is a "third eye;" a mystical archetype found in many cultures denoting enlightenment. For Hindus, it's the bindi dot. For Muslims, the bruise on the forehead for prostrating in prayer, etc.`

[Archie Bunker]

"an honest shomer mitzvot Conservative shochet over a crooked orthodox one"

They are both no good. Besides that shomer mitzvot & Conservative is an oxymoron just like crooked & orthodox is.

[Archie Bunker]

Kishke, Esav did do a lot of things kosher but it was an act to impress his father. He did do some things without acting. He was a person with tremendous abilities. His downfall was that every time he repented he went right back to doing the sin like nothing happened. Because of his great potential, his head is buried in the machpela.

[Archie Bunker]

Maven, I don't quite understand your questions.

[Archie Bunker]

Sarah, you really need to get some help if you believe Joshua's demented interpretation of tefillin.

[Archie Bunker]

Yochanan, where did you get that explanation of tefillin?

The stated reason is that it takes the place of the additional neshomo we are given on Shabbos & Yomtov which is why we don't wear tefillin on those days even if there was no issue with eruv.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie: I don't remember. Just because it's a spiritual archetype in many religions doesn't mean it's not authentically Jewish, or a mitzvah. God speaks in the language of man, which is why korbanot were commanded despite the presence of pagan sacrifices. In the opinion of many scientist, belief in the supernatural is hardwired into the brain. From a purely scientific pov, this neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. But as the Vorlons on Star Trek DS9 point out, that's exactly what a god would do. The anti-Semite CG Jung may have been on to something after all, with his collective unconscious.

[Yochanan Lavie]

While I don't believe tefillin is a gay bondage thing, there is some erotic content in religion. Look at Shir HaShirim, where the masculine God courts the feminine Jewish people, according to tradition. Look at John Donne's famous Holy Sonnet "Batter My heart." Both sex and religion speak to deep-seated human needs. When one or both are not met in a healthy fashion, people start acting strangely. But this is just my opnion.

[ML]

Archie, can you limit your fantasies and BS to just a few posts so I can scan past them quicker?

Thanks!

Oh, and did I tell you that most of what you've written here is full of S%$t? Great then.

[Fleishike Kishke]

"Esav did do a lot of things kosher but it was an act to impress his father. He did do some things without acting. He was a person with tremendous abilities. His downfall was that every time he repented he went right back to doing the sin like nothing happened. Because of his great potential, his head is buried in the machpela." This is neither here not there.

Did Isaac eat hunted meat? Or did he eat Esau's shkhita? Either way he can't be ultra-orthodox by today's standards.

[Fleishike Kishke]

nor

[Dave]

I am surprised that I actually agree with Archie on something- that bizarre idea that tefillin are somehow "erotic" is so bizarre, that as they say in computer-speak, ROTFL !
By the way I found the article:
Tefillin: an ancient acupuncture point prescription for mental clarity, by Steven Schram, Journal of Chinese Medicine number 70, October 2002
You can see it in:
www.koshertorah.com/PDF/tefilin.pdf

By the way, I personally disagree with the interpretation that Shir Hashirim is sort of an allegory where the masculine G-d courts the feminine people of Israel.
That is too anthropomorphic in my opinion.
I just think of it as a teaching that sex can and should be holy.

[Dave]

Another quick point- about a century ago a Sephardic rabbi (I can't remember his name) said that women can pray wearing talit AND tefillin.
Also the Karaites say the mitzvah of wearing tzizeet is also incumbent on women.
All this hundreds of years before Conservatve or Reform.
As we say in Canada, who'd have thunk it?
Too bad more rabbonim didn't check out these minority lenient opinions instead of doing the "my way or the highway" method and the chumra of the month club,
which has led us to all this present- day squabbling.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: It's an allegory- the anthromophorisms are metaphors not be taken literally, You know me better to believe that I believe God actually has a body, That's another religion.

Also, I didn't say tefillin were erotic, just that there is an erotic component to religion. Since both involve deep human needs and passions, poets & mystics have always seen a connection.

[Dave]

Yochanan, please forgive me, my friend.

I did not mean that you personally believe that God has a body. Unfortunately there are people out there that get confused.
I get bothered by anthromorphisms personally not because I am going to believe that God has a body (God forbid), but I think there must surely be a more holy/ spiritual way of expressing these concepts rather than resorting to anthropomorphisms.
Of course you didn't say tefillin were erotic, but other posters did say so.
I am sorry but I am just a bit obsessively anti-mystical. For example I do not believe in angels, I just believe they are human messengers sent by God at a specific time for a specific purpose. The reason I am obsessively anti-mystical is because I think it's a slippery slope from mysticism to believing that a certain rebbe is the Mashiakh or divine (God forbid that any human can be or become divine), to believing that God was incarnated in the Jster/ the Jman.

[Sarah]

Ortho Arch,
Perhaps I was being less than serious in my agreement about tefillim being a gay bondage ritual (or a straight one for that matter) but I was totally serious about Chabad emissaries coming on to men when they put tefillim on them. Though not commonplace it's not unusual either since there are so many repressed gay men -- and women -- in the haredi community, not only sick child molesters.
Btw, I'm still waiting for you to explain to us what you meant by gays running amok at JTS. No one else has heard of this.
And, FYI, if I hated Orthodox Jews as you believe I'd hate myself and most of my family and many friends.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: I was a bit grouchy when I replied to you. I know you're a friend.