Mumbai: Behind The Carnage

"The Israeli diplomat's face wore a look of sheer exasperation. He hadn't slept in four days.…one of the victims' families belonged to an extreme ultra-Orthodox sect that objected to his coffin being draped in the Israeli flag and being part of the official ceremony.…"

Anshel Pfeffer writes in Ha'aretz:

Behind the carnage
By Anshel Pfeffer

MUMBAI - The Israeli diplomat's face wore a look of sheer exasperation. He hadn't slept in four days. Over the last hundred hours, he had scrambled between the scene of a terrorist attack, hospital wards, city morgues, government offices and the Israeli consulate, where anxious family members had besieged him for answers about their loved ones.

His mobile phone, meanwhile, had not stopped ringing as Jerusalem headquarters continuously sent in instructions. Everything was handled with equanimity and efficiency: The bodies of the six victims of the Chabad House attack were finally identified, Israelis were no longer missing in Mumbai and the Israel Air Force jet had landed and refuelled, prepared to take the victims home for burial. But just at this moment, the diplomat got word that one of the victims' families belonged to an extreme ultra-Orthodox sect that objected to his coffin being draped in the Israeli flag and being part of the official ceremony.

For a moment, he struggled with himself but quickly regained composure. "Okay," he said with a bitter smile, "so they don't want him draped with the flag of Israel, but it's fine if an Israeli air force plane flies him back."

"I'm proud to belong to a nation that makes such an effort to bring its sons and daughters home, doing everything to preserve their dignity," said Colonel Yossi Turgeman, Israel's military attache to India, once the bodies were en route. This was no exaggeration. Minutes after the attack at Nariman House ended last Friday night, Turgeman's team was already inside the destroyed building, despite the presence of unexploded grenades and devices. By identifying and flying out the victims' bodies in less than three days, the Israeli team broke records in cutting through Indian red tape. All this ended with the poignant picture of six coffins on the Ben-Gurion International Airport tarmac, four of them in draped in Israeli flags and two in tallises.

Reading the images

There has been an attempt to create Jewish symbols, some of them false, out of the carnage last week. This includes the unfounded myth that the bodies were found wrapped in tallises, which made its way into Ehud Olmert's cabinet address on Sunday. But there were also distressingly authentic ones, like the pictures of two-year old Moshe Holtzberg, crying "Ima, Ima" ("Mommy, Mommy") during the memorial ceremony on Monday. Images like these are part and parcel of a traumatic event of this scale, but it's important we don't allow ourselves to be carried away by them.

Chabad emissary Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka were by all accounts wonderful people. Like many other Chabad representatives, they landed in a place they had never been to before and with meagre resources built a home that has hosted thousands of hungry and weary travellers, free of charge. But neither this nor the terrible tragedy of their death should make us forget the fact that Chabad is a controversial and highly-politicized movement with an aggressive agenda that is anathema to many Jews and Israelis. If we might have forgotten that for a moment, the request made by Gavriel Holzberg's father of Ehud Olmert that the evacuation of the illegal outpost in Hebron be put off for the duration of his son's shiva should serve as a reminder of Chabad's true nature.

Chabad will naturally try to make full use of these images to project itself as representative of the people of Israel. That doesn't mean that we have to go along with it. The demands that the government take responsibility for the security of Chabad missions around the world are unfeasible and, quite frankly, preposterous. Chabad is a New York-based organization with its own hierarchy and objectives, it certainly doesn't represent Israel. The unofficial line being taken by the Foreign Ministry, that it will coordinate security measures and offer guidance, but that Chabad ultimately will have to be responsible for its own security and bear the costs, is appropriate. Let's hope that in an election season, none of the candidates will rush to make any rash promises.

The Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists, who wreaked havoc in South Mumbai, had two objectives. The first took aim at the classic mass-terror target, the crowded Victoria train station and the nearby hospital and underground station, where firing in to the crowds would wreak havoc and cause many deaths. The second looked to the high-profile and lucrative targets - luxury hotels Oberoi, Trident and especially the iconic Taj Mahal, where both foreigners and India's elite were to be found.

Chabad House was neither of these. The terrorists are aware of the low-profile strategic tie between Israel and India. That was why they tried to find Israelis, to strike a blow at that relationship. Chabad House was the most convenient and vulnerable target.

Despite the awful history of internecine massacres in India, the ancient Jewish community of India has never suffered much from anti-Semitic violence. The killing notwithstanding, India still has the second largest Muslim population in the world, coexisting to a large degree peacefully with their neighbours. If there is one image we should take from last week's carnage, it should be the picture of Moshe's Indian nanny, Sandra Samuel, who together with another Indian, Zaki Hussein, risked their lives to carry him out to safety.

Comments

[Archie Bunker]

It would have been nice if Shmarya prefaced this piece by admitting that he conjured up false conspiracy theories about autopsies when he doesn't have a scientific leg to stand on.

Of course this is to be expected since he is cynically using the murder of innocent people by evil Muslim fanatics to advance his goal of smearing Orthodox Jews, a goal he shares with the terrorists.

[Archie Bunker]

I will also take the opportunity to respond to more of Shmarya's disingenious propganada that he posted today to mischaracterize my opinions.

Shmarya is smart enough to put a stop to Anon's foul mouthed lies as he knows it is not good for the anti-Orthodox cause.

So Shmarya berates and censors a fellow malcontent while continuing himself to lie about me in a smarter, craftier fashion.

Shmarya pulls a stunt of framing everything I say as "racist", as if he sets the universal definition, so he can then paint about a million people as supposedly having the same "racist" views that I do.

A more accurate perspective on all this is that any unemployed guy in his 50s blogging in his underwear from his mother's basement is most likely full of delusions which he expects the rest of the world to agree with him on.

[Archie Bunker]

All politics and opinions about the State aside, there is something wrong with draping a coffin in a secular flag when it could be draped in a holy artifact like a tallis.

[Just a Goy]

Archie, please...

[critical_minyan]

israel chose blue and white to be the color of their flag because that was the original color of the talis. I read this in numerous places even though I seem to mostly see black and white talisim in the shules that I go to.
treating bodies in a respectful way after death is one of the main tenets of both the Zionist state and ultra-orthodox judaism. It is one of the things they have in common, although they practice it in different ways.
Even though fighting over a talis vs. a flag on a coffin seems petty in the time of tragedy, not dealing with this issue respectfully has the potential to lead to inflamed passions both on the side of the Israeli government, who went out of their way to bring back the bodies, and the family of the victim who are entitled to make sure that their loved ones murder is not draped by a symbol they are opposed to.
a possible compromise is that israel has special talisim, that are blue and white, but without the magen david, that contain tzizit, that can be draped over coffins of charedim who, if this ever happens again g-d forbid, do not want the Israeli flag draped on their coffins.

[Yoni]

"Six coffins on the Ben-Gurion International Airport tarmac, four of them in draped in Israeli flags and two in tallises."

A couple of points:

1. Of the two coffins drapes in taleisim - ok, one was of the Satmar chasid, whose was the other? The Bobover chasid? Nope - it was of the Jewish Mexican woman who was scheduled to make aliyah in a few days. Her children, who live in Israel, requested that she be treated as an Israeli citizen for all matters, including draping her coffin in the Israeli flag. Who objected? The State of Israel, claiming she was not yet a citizen when she was murdered.

2. As to the Satmarer - I live and work among secular Israelis, and almost everyone's reaction to the Satmar objection to having the coffin draped in the Israeli flag is simply exasperation AT THE STATE OF ISRAEL WHICH WOULD BE SO DUMB AS TO WANT TO DRAPE THIS GUY'S COFFIN IN A FLAG. He was a Satmarer, for heaven's sake! Israel did not send the crew to India for the Satmarer - you can be damn sure that if the only victims in India had been Satmarers, be they 2 or 20, Israel - justifiably - would not have done a thing. The Satmarers would be expected to fend for themselves (and would probably do a good job at it).
Israel sent a crew because a Chabad House was attacked, and countless Israelis visit Chabad Houses while traveling in the Far East. They are some of the main gathering places for Israelis there.
And with Israel being expected by its citizens to protect them to some extent while they're abroad (whether or not this is a justified expectation), you may just find that Israel is involved to some extent in the security of Chabad Houses.

[omg]

Its no one's business what the coffin of a loved on is draped in. Minutae, much ado about not enough.
Go find something important to think about, like a change of heart.

[critical_minyan]

omg,
people find the most petty things to argue about at funerals. it is a time of great emotion.
every symbol has to potential to cause unnecessary anguish.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Remember: Satmar is Romanian shorthand for St. Mary.

[Isaac Balbin]

Yochanan, where is the evidence that Satmar is is shorthand for St. Mary?

The author of the article speaks absolute bultish when he uses the deaths (as does Shamrya by posting this nonsense) and says "But neither this nor the terrible tragedy of their death should make us forget the fact that Chabad is a controversial and highly-politicized movement with an aggressive agenda that is anathema to many Jews and Israelis

Nu? So which movement isn't?

I spoke tonight to a group of N'Shei Chabad (because I knew the Holtzbergs well). Guess what they were focussing on? Doing more Mitzvos. I wish people would have the ability to hold their mouths if they had nothing positive to say when we are in the midst of a tragedy.

[critical_minyan]

according to wiki satu mare means big village. satu mare is the town in romania where satmar originated.
the chabad response to the tragedy was admirable in the respect that they didnt call for revenge, but good deeds.
however, i still disagree with them on most issues and feel that ultimately this group has lost its way and has started to fragment.

[Dr,Dave]

Please remember that Haaretz is the villaige voice of Israel - well to the left of even the left wing's positions.

[Nachum]

Archie, you know a coffin ain't too authentically Jewish either, right? I mean, if you want to get really authentic, you lay out the body in a cave for a year, come back a year later, collect the bones, put them in a box, and put that in a cave. It was only later that we adopted the "goyish" practice of burial and still later the "goyish" practice of coffins, which are still used in Israel only for people who died violently (for obvious reasons).

I thought that only men are wrapped (and/or their coffins covered) in tallitot anyway. In Israel, women are wrapped (and/or their coffins covered) with something that looks like the typical velvet cover of a bima or parochet, with embroidered inscriptions. So a flag is perfectly OK.

In addition, I thought Zaka went in first. I never heard about an IDF unit...you learn something new every day. God bless them both.

[Nachum]

"ultimately this group has lost its way and has started to fragment."

Lost its way, sure. Fragment? Not at all. They're all heading down the same path.

[critical_minyan]

my opinion is they fragmenting already.
the children see how meshuga their parents are with the rebbe narishkeit and many will throw out the baby with the bathwater.
in physics you have the rule of entropy, it takes energy to keep something growing bigger and bigger.
everythings natural inclination is to break into smaller and smaller pieces.
chabad is a joke.

[WHAT IF]

You are forgetting about RESPECT FOR RELIGION.

How can anyone dare and be "insulted" for having to respect the freedom of someones RELIGION or religiouse belifes - whatever they may be.

The persons Objection to the Secular Flag was because it objected to it, on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS and based on RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

At a Christian funeral, for example, only a fool would be insulted that a Christian body is covered with a cross instead of an Israeli Flag.

A Talis represents the symbol of the true religious beliefs of the victim and the flag represents the exact opposite, not unlike a cross, for anyone who religious beliefs is that of the Satmar Belief System.

You may "Despise Stamar" but you sould be ashamed at yourself for not RESPECTING THIER RELIGIOUSE BELIEFES especialy of the dead.

Obviously someone was very insulted that they couldn't put their "symbol of Anti Religiouse secularism" on top of body which for religious freedom reasons, represents the OPPOSITE, of the Israeli Flag SECULARIST, Anti Religious, connotation.

Throughout history there have been many Christians who have saved Jews.

Likewise, throughout history there have been many Jews who have saved Christians.

That doesn't give anyone the right to even WANT, to even THINK, of putting the flag of the "rescue ships RELIGION", on someone else's coffin who believes in a religiously apposing CONFLICTING religion.

It's a real shame that anyone, either Secualr Israeli or Secualr "anti Orthodox Religion Shmarya", can be insulted at respecting someone else's religious beliefs, especially of the dead.

At the massacre of more than 170 victims, people of many different religions and nationalities had been killed, including Christians, Muslims Hindus and just about every other religion and nationality was involved.

WHAT IF:

WAHT IF the "RESCUE SHIP" would have happened to be of the CHRISTIANS, would they have, even had the CHUTZPAH, to even dare to THINK, to put a cross on the Jewish coffins too, just because the Rescue ships religion or it's Army was Christian?

The Israeli Flag represents a secular governemnt whos belifes system conflicts with the relios belifes of others.

The Israeli governemnt (in spite of being anti-religiouse) still happens to do many wonderful things, just like the Christians do many wonderful things, but a Christian Symbol does not belong on a Jewish Body and an Anti Religious Flag does not belong on and Religious Body if FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS the family of the deceased, feels uncomfortable with it.

[WHAT IF]

Shmarya, I wish you no harm, but everyone dies eventually.

Shmarya, WHAT IF upon your eventual death, that happens in an area where only Christians can fly your body back home?

I can just imagine Shmarya Rosenberg being proud to have a Cross, rather than a Talis, over his dead body, upon his death, if his dead body, is flown back home, by Christians.

[steve]

He was a Satmarer, for heaven's sake! Israel did not send the crew to India for the Satmarer - you can be damn sure that if the only victims in India had been Satmarers, be they 2 or 20, Israel - justifiably - would not have done a thing. The Satmarers would be expected to fend for themselves (and would probably do a good job at it).

This has to rank up there with the most idiotic statements ever made on this blog. When did Israel ever differentiate between one Jew or another? Are Satmars any less Jewish than Lubavitchers or Bobovers? Your blind hatred for the Jewish State causes you to make unfounded accusations and idiotic assumptions. It's true that if the State of Israel needed help from the Satmar community that none will ever be offered. On the contrary, there are offshoots of Satmar that are working with our enemies to destroy the State. However, if the Satmar community was in need, say they needed to be airlifted from a hostile foreign country, the State of Israel will be ready to risk human lives to save them.

[JimmyDaGeek]

As usual, Haaretz injects it's left-wing views on everything reported. I didn't read what it said when yet another released Arab terrorist was captured in the act. They probably bemoaned the fact that Arabs are forced into violence because of Israel's policies.

[David]

"'Okay,' he said with a bitter smile, 'so they don't want him draped with the flag of Israel, but it's fine if an Israeli air force plane flies him back.'"

The man has a point here. If they object to the flag, they should probably pony up the airfare on their own. Typical Hareidi attitude-- they honestly believe that the rest of the world is lucky to be allowed to take care of their needs.

[Yoni]

Hey Steve, buddy, forgot the meds this morning, or are you just a moron who never learned reading comprehension?! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ, YOU IMBICILE?! Just to clear something up - are you the one who spent years in the Golani infantry brigade, and who still gets called up by for a month of miluim (umm... that's reserve duty in the IDF) every year, and who pays taxes in Israel, or AM I?

[omg]

I know very well the behavior of people around funerals and planning for funerals and what is important at that time and what is not important. I think all flags should be banned. Only if the loved ones left living want it, but get rid of these material objects that carry divisions, yet more divisions, and even more divisions amongs people.
I repeat, much ado about not enough. What is the real issue here? Why all the emotion around funerals and death? Because its emotional, that's why, But keep minutae and divisive elements ut of it. We're all vulnerable beyond our wildest dreams to the power of the unseen, we have no control, although mitzvahs are a nice idea, the real good comes from a change of heart. A miserable bastard can do mitzvahs from today till tomorrow, and then do his dirty deeds between mitzvahs. I don't buy the mitzvah idea as being what heals a person, do a mitzvah, and then cheat on your wife. Wonderful!!

--Your blind hatred for the Jewish State causes you to make unfounded accusations and idiotic assumptions.--

Do a moment's research as to the Satmar opinion of the State of Israel.

There's not a lot of love lost either way.

[ML]

As usual...Archie changes the subject

As usual...at least two people denounce anything outright, simply by being published by Haaretz.

As usual...Archie makes ad hominem attacks (usually while railing against others for doing so).

As usual...someone tries to make the 'authenticity' argument, and of course, fails.

As usual...someone (probably Archie) will try to rip this particular post. Heck, you might even be clever enough to begin, "As usual..."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Isaac: You are correct. My bad. From Wikipedia:

Satu Mare (pronunciation in Romanian: /'sa.tu 'ma.re/; meaning "Big Village" in Romanian; Hungarian: Szatmárnémeti; German: Sathmar; Yiddish: סאטמאר (Satmar)) is a city with a population of 115,142 and the capital of Satu Mare County, Romania.

Satu Mare is the origin of the Satmarer Hasidic Jews, who lived there until World War II and now reside in New York City, Jerusalem, London, and other places

[steve]

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ

The question is do you understand what you wrote, or perhaps you're still suffering from shell shock?

[Yoni]

Yeah yeah yeah, and YOU STILL CAN'T READ. This is not high level stuff, Stevie. Now I know public education in the U.S. ain't that hot, but couldn't they teach you third grade reading comprehension?! And for someone who purports to love Israel as much as you do, it would be expected of you TO BOW DOWN BEFORE SOMEONE LIKE ME, who walks the walk instead of talking the talk like you (big pussy!). I'd like to see wimpering Stevie after a day in Golani basic training...

[Archie Bunker]

I did not change any subject. I first replied to another misrepresentation by Shmarya and reminded everyone that he also made up bogus accusations against ZAKA as a forensic scientist from the #2 forensic lab in the world tells me autopsies would not be necessary to determine who actually killed the Mumbai victims.

[Archie Bunker]

The comment at 10:30 should blow everyone away.

Who knew that one of the readers here has a bigger ego than even Shmarya himself.

[steve]

Show me one instance where the State of Israel denied any type of aid because the Jew happened to be a Satmar? Just one.

[Shmarya]

I first replied to another misrepresentation by Shmarya and reminded everyone that he also made up bogus accusations against ZAKA as a forensic scientist from the #2 forensic lab in the world tells me autopsies would not be necessary to determine who actually killed the Mumbai victims.

Name.

Full exact details of what you told him.

[Yoni]

Archie - you don't know Israelis?!
Steve - it may come as a shock, but Israel does not and can not guaranty the safety of its citizens outside its borders. Now, Israelis get into binds every day all over the world, and the State of Israel does not send over a task force to rescue them. It's, um, quite unfeasible. Now, in the high-visibility and emotionally-laden case in Mumbai, Israel decided to send a force. As I wrote, this had to do partly with the target of the attack, a Chabad House. What if it were just Israelis being attacked at a hotel, would Israel send a force? I don't know. What I do know, and WHAT I TOTALLY JUSTIFY, is that if the attack was on, say, some Satmar chasidim who happended to be in Mumbai on business (BTW, Satmarers are usually not Israeli citizens, but this would apply either way), there would be zero public support in Israel for sending a force to assist them, and actually a public outcry if such support were sent, seeing as the Satmarers view Israel as anathema, and they breed a great deal of contempt towards themselves. If you don't think this is taken into consideration by the powers that be here in Israel, you're seriously kidding yourself.

[Archie Bunker]

I cannot identify the scientist without possibly revealing my identity.

But the burden of proof is not on me. It's on Shmarya because he made accusations against ZAKA without providing any proof.

[Archie Bunker]

"Archie - you don't know Israelis?!"

I know Israelis but I still thought they did not surpass il supremo, the blog author.

[Shmarya]

Now, in the high-visibility and emotionally-laden case in Mumbai, Israel decided to send a force. As I wrote, this had to do partly with the target of the attack, a Chabad House. What if it were just Israelis being attacked at a hotel, would Israel send a force? I don't know.

Quite the opposite of what Yoni writes, Israel does try to send teams in cases like this.

What I do know, and WHAT I TOTALLY JUSTIFY, is that if the attack was on, say, some Satmar chasidim who happended to be in Mumbai on business (BTW, Satmarers are usually not Israeli citizens, but this would apply either way), there would be zero public support in Israel for sending a force to assist them, and actually a public outcry if such support were sent, seeing as the Satmarers view Israel as anathema, and they breed a great deal of contempt towards themselves. If you don't think this is taken into consideration by the powers that be here in Israel, you're seriously kidding yourself.

Israel doesn't make those types of distinctions when it comes to terror.

[Shmarya]

But the burden of proof is not on me. It's on Shmarya because he made accusations against ZAKA without providing any proof.

Please.

I posted article quoting ISRAELI physicians who saw the bodies in Mumbai and who said it was very difficult to ID them or to determine anything related to bullet wounds, etc., because of decomposition.

cannot identify the scientist without possibly revealing my identity.

No ID, no scientist.

[Archie Bunker]

The Israeli physicians did not identify themselves as forensic pathologists and most likely did not graduate from leading institutions like UT & Quantico.

I took a course once in Astrophysics. It doesn't mean I'm a leading expert or even qualified to give an opinion.

[steve]

What if it were just Israelis being attacked at a hotel, would Israel send a force? I don't know

Exactly. You don't know. So all of your assumptions are baseless and all of your rantings are hate fueled gibberish.

[ardent]

Why did this post and commenters leave out the most pertinent point - reported by most media and verified?

The family and friends of R. Teitelbaum, the Satmarer, had already hired a private plane to take him out of India to avoid going with the Israeli jet. The Israeli gvt however insisted that all 6 have to go together on their plane and the Indian gvt had no choice but not to release the body except to the Israelis.
Thus it is a false charge and canard to say that they wereready to take advantage of the "free ride" but no flag. They rejected the freebie and were forced to take it.

[Archie Bunker]

Why should Shmarya present all the facts when the only thing that matters is smearing Orthodox Jews?

The plane is probably the one given to ZAKA by a wealthy benefactor.

[Nachum]

You know what, ardent, that ain't too good either. What, are they not part of the Jewish people any more? The anti-Zionists, and Charedim in general, are going to have to learn that we're all one people. The terrorists sure don't care what groups we divide ourselves into.

[Anon]

--Why should Shmarya present all the facts when the only thing that matters is smearing Orthodox Jews?--

Ok - he has the Right, you have the Left.

Division of labor settled.

[Molly]

Why do you have to taint the tragedy? A Jew's loss, especially of this magnitude is felt by all, who needs to be reminded of agenda's? the "reminders" from the author of Chabad's issues are completely callous at such a time