GUEST POST: Rabbi Asher Lopatin On Rahm Emmanuel, The Conference Call, And Pekuakh Nefesh

In response to comments left on this previous post, Rabbi Asher Lopatin writes:

Dear Fellow Readers of the Failed Messiah Blog:

Please read and reread Wikipedia carefully: It does not mention who converted Amy Rule, nor does it say that it was an Orthodox conversion. Rahm Emanuel and his family are well liked members of our Modern Orthodox synagogue, but we are proud that Anshe Sholom attracts many members who would not necessarily classify themselves as Orthodox – or as any denomination. We strive to be inclusive and non-judgmental. People would have to ask Rahm and Amy what denomination, if any, they feel they are part of.

When giving Rahm a heter for being on a conference call on Rosh Hashana, I did tell him that if he could have a gentile make the call it would be preferable. I feel as strongly now as I did a month a go that passing the bailout was a critical part of preventing the melt-down of the world economy, and that that is a Pikuach Nefesh issue. My Rav, Rav Ahron Soloveichik was a hawk, as all Briskers are, when it comes to enforcing Pikuach Nefesh even in a case of Chashasha Rechoka. People may disagree whether the bailout was the right thing to do, but Rahm felt it was critical, and my p'sak was based on his take on the situation, which I feel was appropriate.

I doubt I have had any influence on Rahm Emanuel regarding Agriprocessors – in fact, I don't think it is my role to get involved with influencing my members on political issues. I have spoken in shul of my concern with Agriprocessors, but not in the context of what a Congressman should do or say.

Finally, even though I was not involved in Amy Rule's conversion, I remain deeply concerned about the rejection of many halachically valid conversions, and also at the lack of communal effort to halachically convert legitimate adult and child candidates to Judaism. I salute Rabbi Marc Angel for his voice on this matter as well as Rabbi Michael Broyde who is working towards explaining the halachic options with Ger Katan.

Rabbi Asher Lopatin

Comments

[Archie Bunker]

With all due respect Rabbi Lopatin, do you really think that Rav Aron Soloveitchik zl would have viewed the bailout as any kind of pikuach nefesh when many experts believe it will only make the problem worse? Some even say it could be the clincher for Great Depression redux.

[Archie Bunker]

Are Marc Angel & Michael Broyde collaborating on ger kattan or is this "tzvay dinim"?

Adult Jews fooling around with non-Jews before there are children in the picture and getting carte blanche approval for "converting" is what is so highly problematic.

[The Other DK]

Mr. Bunker:

Please tell us from which yeshiva you received semicha.

If you did receive semicha, where did you learn? Where do you learn currently? Which rabbis do you turn to resolve your halachic questions?

Thank you.

[The Other DK]

Second paragraph should begin:

"If you did not receive semicha..."

[Archie Bunker]

Other DK,

I understand that I must be making readers curious but I do not wish to divulge my background at this time other than to say I learned in Charedi yeshivos and that I received semicha from a senior rosh yeshiva who learned in Lita before the war.

[steve]

when it comes to enforcing Pikuach Nefesh even in a case of Chashasha Rechoka.

Chashasha Rechoka? More like Chashasha Impossible! No disrespect to the good rabbi, but if this is an acceptable case of pikuach nefesh, then you have just given a heter for any Jew to work on Rosh Hashana! Choose any profession, I can give you a "chashasha rechoka" why its pikuach nefesh if that person doesn't go to work.

[Archie Bunker]

I cannot see any reason why the fierce criticism that was leveled by Rabbi Bloch against the end result of Tropper's conversions should not apply to Rabbis Angel and Broyde and their followers.

One also has to wonder how Rabbi Lopatin could allow Rahm to have aliyos if his wife did not have an orthodox conversion, meaning that she would not Jewish according to halacha.

[The Other DK]

Rabbi Bunker:

I understand that you, like many of us, wish to maintain some level of privacy and are concerned that too much detail might enable someone to figure out who you are.

[ohel former employee]

Excellent post & correct decision.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I have to second Steve on this one. I am well aware of Rav Lopatin's excellent educational accomplishments and his distinguished teachers but saying that telling Rahm Emanual that he could use a cell phone on Rosh HaShanah to prevent a global financial meltdown and call it pikuach nefesh is patently ridiculous.
First of all, this crisis was big enough that I doubt Rahm Emanuel's personal participation or absence from some cell phone conversations would have affected the global economy in any perceptible fashion.
Secondly, pikuah nefesh? Oh come on! What, if the economy crashes a banker might jump out of a window and crash into the street below? Please.
This was a controversial decision, no doubt, and I'm sure that Rav Lopatin did not arrive at his decision lightly but the reasoning is absurd and should be dismissed.

[Jason]

Archie, perhaps you should think twice before making assumptions about whether adult Jews have fooled around with non-Jews. You have no special insight into the private lives of people, no matter which yeshivot you attended. Likewise your political opinions or your opinions on economic issues like the bailout, for which your yeshiva education has no bearing.

[Archie Bunker]

On the last thread, Shmarya came up with every far fetched sevoro to promote the idea that Rabbi Lopatin gave the correct psak.

Imagine if he channeled that same energy for the benefit of other rabbis when they are not advising an Obama adviser to desecrate Rosh Hashana.

[Archie Bunker]

Jason,

Rav Moshe Feinstein pointed out the obvious in a teshuva that there is no such thing as a Platonic relationship between the sexes.

I don't know how long Rahm was with Amy before she converted but I personally know people who caused heartache to their parents by fooling around with non-Jews who they eventually married with the aid of rabbis.

And why do you assume that my education is limited to yeshivos?

[Jason]

Because that is the only indication you have given to your background. If you have a degree that bears on your ability to offer your reasoned opinion on whether the meltdown of the financial system is pikuach nefesh, then please share with us.

Anyway, I have no stake in whether Rahm Emanuel or anyone else fooled around with a Jewess or non-Jewess or whether he had a valid heter to attend a conference call on Rosh Hashana or not.

But it seems to me there is a larger question at stake here. Every shabbat I see doctors on the phone, or checking their blackberries, or driving to and from work while nobody makes a peep about it. The idea that a plastic surgeon, or an internist, or almost any other kind of doctor needs to work on shabbat makes a farce out of the whole idea of pikuach nefesh. Why don't people aim their ire at the rabbis facilitating that bs heter.

[Shmarya]

Why don't people aim their ire at the rabbis facilitating that bs heter.

It is not a BS heter.

They need to manage the care of patients who can become or who are already quite ill.

[Jason]

Maybe in some cases, but doctors could also get another doctor to cover their shabbat shift, if they so chose. Most that I know just don't want to lose the income.

[Shmarya]

Maybe in some cases, but doctors could also get another doctor to cover their shabbat shift, if they so chose.

That is not always possible or advisable.

Most that I know just don't want to lose the income.

There's probably not a pekuakh nefesh heter there!

[steve]

Jason,

Please don't compare doctors and surgeons with loud and obnoxious congressmem. Some politicians think that every phone call they make is pikuach nefesh. They are so full of themselves.

[yechiel pli]

LOOK,fellas
Ram Immanuel is not frum and would most probably have spoken on the phone anyway.The "psak" most probably made him feel better, it also may even give him a "din" of a shomer shabbos.How so?The talmud relates that a certain individual, upon seeing a rabbi covered up his shabbos desecration, on that a fellow rabbi said"such a person is not a sabbath desecrator in PUBLIC" This distinction is very important since someone who desecrated the sabbath in public or with the knowledge that it will become public is considerd a "mumar' if he does it in private he is merely considerd a trasgressor.
Since Ram Emmanuel has shown that the sabath is important enough to ask a rabbi about, he may qualify as a "shomer shabbath"

[Al]

Rabbi Asher Lopatin: More Power to You ! We need more orthodox Rabanim like you are can take a risky but righeous position on issues like connversion and the issue of Pikuach Nefesh". PLEASE HOLD STRONG TO YOUR HONORABLE AND BALANCED PRINCIPLES.

Archie Bunker says... "With all due respect Rabbi Lopatin, do you really think that Rav Aron Soloveitchik zl would have viewed the bailout as any kind of pikuach nefesh..." how can you take it upon yourself to even imply that Rav Soloveitchik would not agree ? Did you know him better than his Student ? Obviously you do not share the Rabbi's goal of being "inclusive and non-judgemental" !As for your final comment questiong a great depression scenario based on a bail-out... all I can say is this. There is no doubt that many people have killed themselves or dies from the stress of financial ruin. If Rahm Emanuel in his heart beleived in what he was supporting, why would his spiritual leader question him ? Maybe you feel qualified, but evidentally his Rabbi knows how to stick to his expertise and empower his people to do what they beleive is good for the world. If he was wrong, I have to beleive god will see past a mistaken decision in the name of a sincere effort to do good. Open your mind to at least consider opinoons other than the right-wing, close minded positions that cause so much greif in this world.

[chakira]

I can understand that Rahm would want to be מורה היתר for himself to do a conference call on Rosh HaShana. I even might agree that its מותר-- What is wrong with using a cell phone? What I do not agree with is (a) extending פיקוח נפש into pretzel like form and (b) the rabbi giving any היתר at all in a situation like this. Whatever the case may be, a Rabbi should not be giving a היתר for WORK on Shabbat or Yom Tov. For the distinguished congressman, lawmaking is work, eg his professional ethos is trumping his Jewish ethos. This is fine, but there is a much bigger problem if the Jewish ethos, in this case embodied in one R Lopatin, acquiesces to the Jewish ethos being encroached upon by a wholly secular one. As we know מורינו הגר"ץ has come out very strongly against Doctors conflating professional obligation with פיקוח נפש. This is a departure from his teacher, Rav Soloveitchik, at least as regards the army. In both cases there is a question of a professional ethos or a Torah ethos being sovereign and obviously R Schechter felt quite strongly that the weak defense of פיקוח נפש did not justify the abrogation of the entire fabric of an Orthodox Jewish life (the army may be a different case). It is supremely dangerous to Judaism to allow any consideration to trump the central ideas of the Sabbath, Kosher etc, in any official context. Much less dangerous is accepting people who violate these given laws into a community. While I would not have given Rahm an Aliyah, I do not think he did anything worthy of opprobrium or contempt. He acted out of what we all hope was goodwill to try and hopefully save a faltering economy. Fine. But massaging his conscience and the little nagging doubt about Yom Tov is not the job of a Rabbi, Emmanuel can afford a psychologist for that. I think the case of post facto conversions plays to many of the same issues but is more complicated, given the need to seperate out the status of the conversion and its permissibility ab initio. In any case, while Rahm probably did nothing wrong, and I wish him the best of luck with the bailout, I do not know if I can say the same about Rabbi Lopatin, though I do not doubt the best of intentions on his part.

[Al]

Archie: "desecrate Rosh Hashana" ? excuse the expression but...are you nuts ? do you actually see his psak for a phone call based on sincere beleifs to be a "desecration" ? I think that the average Rabbi's decision not to address the Agri situation, the eating of treif meat on Rosh Hashana is a much greater desecration than a phone call. I have no doubt that if the bailout works (and I am not sure it will), it will no doubt save lives and whn it comes to saving lives, I for one thhink that its worth taking chances.. no matter what a close-minded Rabbi might say.

Again, I applaud this rabbi's attitudes and actions. BRAVO !

[Shmarya]

Chakira –

I disagree. That said, and far more importantly, how have you been? Nice to hear from you!

[steve]

I have no doubt that if the bailout works (and I am not sure it will), it will no doubt save lives

And you sincerely believe that Rahm Emmanuel's input on his cellphone that fateful day is what made the bailout happen? Maybe Rahm-bo believes that and Rabbi Lopatin wants to believe that, but I would think you and the rest of society had more common sense.

[Jason]

I probably misspoke earlier and shouldn't have implied the heter for doctors was bs, it is the way it is used by many doctors to excuse any behavior (such as driving home from the hospital after treating a patient) and the way many doctors dealing with non-emergency situations are lionized in the community, while people doing other important and potentially life-saving work are talked about for their shabbat-breaking.

[Archie Bunker]

"how can you take it upon yourself to even imply that Rav Soloveitchik would not agree ?"

I do not know Rabbi Lopatin but a reader at UOJ claims he is a Marc Schneier type trying to kiss up to imams & Muslims and the rabbi himself commented here that he is a follower of the very left wing rabbis Angel & Broyde.

I however do know a student who is a student of R' Aron's brother Rabbi Yosef Dov Soloveitchik or at least he sat in on his lectures. He is a huge embarassment to YU in that he speaks out of his rear end attributing things to his "rebbe" that not only were never stated but are in contradiction to explicit passages in the Talmud.

I also know that the logic of what Rabbi Lopatin is saying is troubling to me and others.

[Shmarya]

Doctors can and in most cases should drive back home from the hospital.

[Archie Bunker]

Al,

The halachic term for doing work that violates Yom Tov is mechalel or desecration, whether you like it or not.

[steve]

Totally off topic, but I hope this means something in regards to affordable cholov yisroel products. The key word in this sentence may be "gourmet" which could be an excuse to artificially inflate prices and say that they have a superior product. We'll see.

http://tinyurl.com/6xuxzt

"A new company, Saratoga Cheese Corporation, is promising to bring high quality, all milk, specialty soft cheeses to the Cholov Yisroel kosher market at normal gourmet cheese prices."

[Jason]

Why should doctors drive back home from hospital? How is this justified? I admit that I am not as learned as many here in the talmud, but it does not make logical sense to me. Please enlighten me.

[chakira]

Shmarya,
You do not appreciate the nuance of the issue sufficiently. There needs to be a delicate balance between two needs. The need for the Jewish community to have doctors of its own, which is a valid and important communal need. Another equally important need is for there to be widespread cessation of work in almost all cases on the Sabbath by those who profess to observe it. You cannot spend Shabbat driving around, doing rotations, and playing with the Blackberry and then go and claim your exemplary religiosity.

[Shmarya]

You do not appreciate the nuance of the issue sufficiently. There needs to be a delicate balance between two needs. The need for the Jewish community to have doctors of its own, which is a valid and important communal need. Another equally important need is for there to be widespread cessation of work in almost all cases on the Sabbath by those who profess to observe it.

Agreed.

You cannot spend Shabbat driving around, doing rotations, and playing with the Blackberry and then go and claim your exemplary religiosity.

It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you not only can but you must do do just that.

[Shmarya]

Why should doctors drive back home from hospital? How is this justified?

Because otherwise doctors would become reluctant to treat sick patients on Shabbat.

The idea of spending all of Shabbat in a hospital, often without much food, and away from his family just because a doctor treated a patient on Friday just after Shabbat began is simply too much for most people to bear with any regularity – and by regularity I mean more than once or twice in a career.

That is the basis for the pesak that doctors can drive home.

[steve]

Frum doctors have a delicate balancing act. There are no set guidelines. The only thing you can tell them is to follow their respective rabbi's instructions. Not so with politicians, where it's very rare that their specific vote is needed on Shabbos or Yom Tov, and that it concerns a life or death situation. You can ask Joe Lieberman how he handles these situations.

[chakira]

Shmarya, I understand the basis of RMF's פסק about Hatzalah. While this is often utilized, it does strain the imagination to see ostensibly Orthodox Jews violating the Sabbath with regularity based on one opinion of one Rabbi which very few other Rabbis really agreed with in order to expedite ambulance response time by a few minutes in often non-life-threatening situations.

[The Other DK]

Rabbi Bunker @ 4:33PM:

"...speaks out of his rear end..."

You could have made the same point using lashon naki.

[Shmarya]

Lieberman used to sleep in his office. Al Gore was his "Shabbos goy," if you recall.

But what would Joe have done in this circumstance?

I'm not sure. But I don't think he would object to what Rahm did.

[Shmarya]

You could have made the same point using lashon naki.

Speaks out of not his front end?

[I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist the play on Rashi…]

[Michelle]

B"H

Shmarya, I salute you for this discussion, as it clearly illustrates how people, without specific education in an issue or sufficient knowledge of a situation can assume that whomever is most draconian in their perspective must be more correct and more holy than those who spent their lives in the study hall with the likes of Rav Soloveitchik and H'Ham Ovadia Yosef!

Isn't that how we got into the situation with Agriprocessors, with the molestations, with the Falushmura, and with the craziness about conversions? Weren't most of these problems the result of too many people worrying about micro-halacha and "correct speech" and not enough people worrying about general concepts of basic human decency, kindness, and explicit halacha from the Torah?

These bozos in black and their minyans need to stop bullying learned men like Angel and Broyd and start studying with my son's third grade Talmid Torah class. At least my son knows the story of Sodom, the laws regarding aiding your neighbor's overburdened Oxen, and how to respect a learned rabbi.

I takes a true master of Talmud, it seems, to turn the Torah on its head to make sick cattle kosher, men molesting boys correct, and harassing and embarrassing a stranger into a holy act of piety.

[Archie Bunker]

Now for Al's comment of being inclusive & non-judgemental. At least when the guy knows better, the halacha requires that we not have anything to do with someone living with a non-Jew whether or not they bothered to get some bogus conversion for her.

Al then posits that pikuach nefesh applies to where a distressed investor may harm himself over a stock loss. That is absurd in my humble opinion. Such "reasoning" could be extended to all stock trades all the time, during and after hours. You may as well keep CNBC on and call a long list of investors every time a stock tanks.

[Jerome Soller]

Rabbi Asher Lopatin,
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.

Jerome

[Joachim Martillo]

I discuss the larger picture of the ethical debasement of Orthodox Judaism in Haredim, Stacey Cohen, Amy Rule.

--That is the basis for the pesak that doctors can drive home.--

Which poskim have issued this psak for doctors (not members of hatzala)?

[Archie Bunker]

Sigh. I don't know which yeshiva Michelle learn in for decades but many people make the mistake of not realizing that while there are indeed men hiding behind black hats (and their minions - not "minyans") that pervert the Torah and cause innocent gerim and other victims among us to suffer, there are also learned men in layman's clothes like Angel & Broyde, who if left to their devices would cause their own churban with bogus conversions.

It's too bad that blogger Joseph Izrael took down the shiur from Rabbi Bloch blasting Leib Tropper as many of the things wrong with Tropper also apply to the left wing of modern orthodoxy.

[Shmarya]

discuss the larger picture of the ethical debasement of Orthodox Judaism

Yes, but you do so as an ignoramus and an antisemite.

[Joachim Martillo]

What did I say that was false in my blog entry?

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.southsidepride.com/2008/11/articles/Jewish_council.html

[Shmarya]

What did I say that was false in my blog entry?

I didn't say what you wrote is false. I said you wrote it as an antisemite and an ignoramus.

Strong words – perhaps too strong, and I apologize for that.

But you simply have no idea what your saying. You lack all context. And you do not even begin to understand the halakhic process. And your motivation, to say the least, is quite flawed.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.clal.org/ss43.html

What's next for the left wing of modern orthodoxy? Will they follow the openly gay Steve Greenberg into some perverse position on intermarriage that is completely detached from orthodoxy?

[Yankel der Ganiv]

Ahhhchiiieee,

"I do not know Rabbi Lopatin but a reader at UOJ claims he is a Marc Schneier type trying to kiss up to imams & Muslims and the rabbi himself commented here that he is a follower of the very left wing rabbis Angel & Broyde."

I have had the distinct "kavod and honor" of meeting his royal rabbiness Marc Schneier and trust me, Asher Lopatin is no Marc Schneier (BTW: THe Schneier's are Schneersohn's. This may explain his healthy sense of self and addiction to publicity).

Rabbi Lopatin may be a "maykel," but he is a talmid chochom (And BTW: a Rhode Scholar) and an overall Mensch who is very humble and approachable. You see him in the grocery store shopping and people stop him all the time. The MO to ask him "Sha'alot" and the Frummers try to debate him. He is patient, answers all their questions and does so with a smile.

Along with being a talmid of Rav Aaron Soloveitchik, he is also a talmid of Aaron hakohen.