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November 25, 2008

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zev

i wish i can do the same as they did i would really want to leave but i need a partner first im 25 male from boro park if u know anyone willing or ur interested please hit me up jewishfun2@gmail.com thanks looking forward

Froike

Jews, even Orthodox, are first and foremost, human; with the same temptations that everyone in modern society is exposed to. The world expects better behavior from G-d's chosen people. Hence, when a "frum" person gets caught doing something shameful..it brings shame to all Jews and is a public Chillul Hashem.
On the other hand, one may question why Rabbenu Gerson,ZTL, prohibited Polygamy among Ashkenazi Jewry(approx 1000 years ago)? A man's urges, Yetzer Harah, is much stronger than in most women. Did Hashem create man to be monogomous? Men of much greater Kiddusha than of this generation had more than one wife and/or concubines; so perhaps it was not a good decision prohibit Polygamy? The downside is, you get more than one Mother in Law!

Angelique

I'm a twenty year old non jewish female from ny, and over the past year and a half I have dated and "hooked up" with at least thirty Hasidic men. They were all different some single young yeshiva guys, most married, and one of the married guys works very close with a big rabbi from upstate and another my longest serious relationship that is still going on is with a yeshiva teacher from Brooklyn. They all tell me that their wife is to boring and doesn't make herself attractive to him or they want something new. I think a big thing that makes it so easy for a guy to cheat is the internet and cell phones these guys have they are a huge temptation to go and do something they aren't supposed to be doing.

hf

check out this blog hasidic-feminist.blogspot.com for the dish

Yochanan Lavie

While Jews are being slaughtered, "bewiskered" is dancing on the head of a pin. Let's ignore him.

bewhiskered

"aveira kala v'chamura"

No mention of any Aveira Kala or Chamura has been made by me. Only the classifications of D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan have been spoken of. And, as far as the Chiyuv for both D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan goes, they are still the same. Where exactly, is the Makor that Aveiros Kalos are D'O'Rye'Saw and and Aveiros Chamuros are D'Rabbanan? Where?

Prior to referring to me as an Am Ha'aretz, you should take a good look in your mirror. It would appear you have more courage than brains.

steve

According to you, all sins are equally on the same level which goes against the concept "aveira kala v'chamura". Based on your logic, a cold blooded murderer and one who doesn't wash netila in the morning, are on the same level as sinners. You sir are the only Am Haaretz on this thread.

alternative childcare

"A real Talmid Chacham would know that one can only differentiate between the classifications of D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan."

This guy is like Sara Palin with her "real Americans", ie anyone who doesn't agree with his adolescent and unlearned take on the halachic process (or who dares make jokes about the holy bungalow colonies ih"k) is not a "real" talmid chochom. This must be something he learned from his acherei achronim.
And of course, the Rambam, as you know, doesn't count as a talmid chochom, he was too controversial and educated ("Dr Maimonides" as a well known Brisker used to joke).

bewhiskered

Your assertion that an issur d'oraysa and an issur d'rabbanan as just as severe, is preposterous. Yes, we are commmanded to obey both.

Your two sentences are Tarti D'Sasri Ahad'di. Our Chiyuv as far as D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan is exactly the same- no difference. That is not preposterous! And, which true Yirei Shamayim will be willing to say which Aveira is more severe? A real Talmid Chacham would know that one can only differentiate between the classifications of D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan. Nothing more.

And, as far as the earlier offensive pair of Amei Ha'aretz, who are into bitch slapping and Hot Nights at the Bungalow Colony, their vulgarities do not interest me.

steve

Concerning V'Lo Tischatain Bam, the Gemarah in Kiddushin 36b learns that the Issur D'O'Rye'Saw of not formally marrying them, applies only to the seven nations of Canaan (whoever they may be today)- not to other non-Jews.

Read the Rambam:

א ישראל שבעל גויה משאר האומות, דרך אישות, או ישראלית שנבעלה לגוי, דרך אישות--הרי אלו לוקין מן התורה, שנאמר "לא תתחתן, בם" (דברים ז,ג): אחד שבעה עממין, ואחד כל האומות באיסור זה. וכן מפורש על ידי עזרא "ואשר לא ניתן בנותינו, לעמי הארץ; ואת בנותיהם, לא ניקח לבנינו" (נחמיה י,לא). [ב] ולא אסרה תורה, אלא דרך חתנות.

ב אבל הבא על הגויה דרך זנות--מכין אותו מכת מרדות מדברי סופרים, גזירה שמא יבוא להתחתן. ואם ייחדה לו בזנות--חייב עליה משום נידה, ומשום שפחה, ומשום גויה, ומשום זונה; ואם לא ייחדה לו אלא נקרית נקרה, אינו חייב אלא משום גויה. וכל חיובין אלו מדבריהן.

L'halacha, the Rambam does not differentiate between the seven nations and all other nations. Your assertion that an issur d'oraysa and an issur d'rabbanan as just as severe, is preposterous. Yes, we are commmanded to obey both. However, can you compare someone that brazenly opens his store on Shabbos to one that moves muktzeh in his private home?

Yochanan Lavie

AC: Thanks for bitch-slapping bewiskered.

alternative childcare

Bewhiskered, you know that the Besht said that ka'as was the one trait for which there was no tikkun, and gayvah is not popular in either the chassidish or mussar seforim, and certainly not in chazal. How do you know what I'm familiar with? Perhaps I was one of your Rebbeim in yeshiva?
But as we don't paskin from any of the groups you mentioned above (and I have never heard the phrase acherei achronim used in this context), you haven't answered the question. And if you haven't thought matters through enough to state something intelligent, then you shouldn't be so abusive of serious minded people, even if you disagree.

bewhiskered

So, Rav Bewhiskered, which rabbi is the accepted one? Bobov, Calev, Lubavitch, Brisk, my local Young Israel rabbi.....?

Apparently, you're not yet familiar with the concept of Shas and Poskim. Accepting Tannayim, Amorayim, Gaonim, Rishonim, Acharonim, and Acharei Acharonim might be a good start.

But, enough of this foolishness!

bewhiskered

So, Rav Bewhiskered, which rabbi is the accepted one? Bobov, Calev, Lubavitch, Brisk, my local Young Israel rabbi.....?

Perhaps, you haven't yet heard of Shas and Poskim. You know, accepting Tannayim, Amorayim, Gaonim, Rishonim, and Acharonim would be a good start.

Or, why not simply go back to your Hot Nights at the Bungalow Colony? Enough foolishness!

alternative childcare

I liked the conversation about the chassidish swingers better.

But let me help Yochanan out a little. I am a frum guy, and was ok with everything (yochanan- avoda zara is a bit strong, hard to lump Habad in with hanuman IMHO)until this line:

Rashi learns there, that fear of your Rebbie (leading Rabbanim down through the ages), should be as the fear of Shamayim.

So, Rav Bewhiskered, which rabbi is the accepted one? Bobov, Calev, Lubavitch, Brisk, my local Young Israel rabbi, our local blog rabbi Archie Bunker, Mordechai Kaplan, the Eidah Charedis, Rabbi Shulweis in LA? One can't follow all of them, yet they all think of themselves as men of Torah. Who decides?

Now can we get back to " Hot Nights at the Bungalow Colony"?

Yochanan Lavie

After this, I'll let you have the last word, because you are always right. My rudeness is noted after you insulted me, and gave the harshest possible interpretation of my sincere best wishes for the Mumbai hostages. I was making a general statement about certain arrogant individuals, both rabbinic and not. As an admirer of the Rebbe (although he wasn't infallible like the Pope) I never meant to insult him.

Now go ahead, have the last word, and tell me how much I suck and how perfect you are and every rabbi is. And learn to read English closely.

bewhiskered

YL writes:

I never said that Rebbe claimed anything about himself.

But, you wrote:

.....because I don't believe in abject submission to any human being, even if he claims to speak for God.

Whom exactly did you mean by that remark? And, if you were not referring to the Rebbe Z"L, what is the point of any of your comments?

You're rudeness is noted.

Yochanan Lavie

Up until this point, I liked you despite our disagreements. Here, you show yourself to be a nasty, vindictive individual:

"How many statements without any verification of proof whatsoever, you make. Are you so hell desperate bent for leather to show us your personal dislikes?

You are correct about one thing, though. You aren't a Talmid Chacham"

I was extending an olive branch, saying that I do care about what happens to fellow Jews, no matter what their philosophy, especially at times like these. But you'd rather get into and ad hominem ideological pissing contest with me rather than come together with me in wishing those unfortunates well. I never assumed anything about whether the schluchim were meschists are not; the point is, no matter what, they are fellow Jews and human beings. But I guess only rabbi worshippers qualify as human beings in your book.

I take no perverse pride in my humility, but I know what my limitations are. You arrogantly, do not. If being a Talmid Chacham means being a rude, obnoxious human being (although it probably doesn't) I'd rather not be one. I am sure you think of yourself as one. Gratuitous insults are unnecessary (and mine are always well-earned, not gratuitous).

I never said that Rebbe claimed anything about himself. Had they taught you to closely read English in your yeshiva, you would have seen that I respect the Rebbe, but merely think there should be limits to how we venerate any human being, including the Rebbe. I never said he said anything like that; but you seem to assume all talmidei chachamim are beyond reproach and whatever they say is as if it came from the mouth of God. I cannot accept that.

It is a good thing you do not possess an AK-47 (although I may be "assuming" again). It is narrow minded creeps like you who end up becoming terrorists.

Launch your Jew-had somewhere else. YOU are my personal dislike. Refuah shelaimah.

bewhiskered

YL writes:

.....even if he claims to speak for God.

But, anyone who claims they speak for HaShem Yisbarach, is not to be listened to! That is elementary, rudimentary! When did the Rebbe Z"L ever say such a ridiculous thing during the entirety of his life- when?

And, unlike a true Talmid Chacham, you assume a lot:

I hope your colleagues in India are delivered from the evildoers, whether they are meschists or not.

How many statements without any verification of proof whatsoever, you make. Are you so hell desperate bent for leather to show us your personal dislikes?

You are correct about one thing, though. You aren't a Talmid Chacham.


Yochanan Lavie

So my bewiskered friend is practising "avoider" zarah by dodging the question. I must be an apikorus, because I don't believe in abject submission to any human being, even if he claims to speak for God. Those are my problems with Christianity and fanatical branches of Islam. But if God hears the prayers of an apikorus, I hope your colleagues in India are delivered from the evildoers, whether they are meschists or not.

bewhiskered

Yochanan Lavie writes:

Rather than quoting Gemara, tell me plainly, how is that NOT avodah zarah?

Right off the bat, if you're questioning the authority of the Gemarah on anything, we have no discussion.

Second. Much greater Talmidei Chachamim than you have never referred to Lubavitch as Avodah Zarah.

And once again (a little louder), nonchalantly tossing that term Avodah Zarah around, will get you no acknowledgment whatsoever from true Talmidei Chachamim, who are quite capable of seeing where your personal sympathies lie.

Yochanan Lavie

I never claimed to be a talmid chacham. I am a poshete Yid who sees worshipping a dead as both the Messiah and God's incarnation on earth as blasphemous. Rather than quoting Gemara, tell me plainly, how is that NOT avodah zarah?

bewhiskered

Yochanan Lavie writes:

With all respect, could this not become a slippery slope leading to avodah zarah? Rabbi Schneersohn, zt"l, was worthy of respect, but not of worship, for example.

How the topics of Avodah Zarah and Rav Menachem Mendel Z"L relate to my citing of the above Gemarah in P'sachim 22b, Kiddushin 57a, etc. about following the words of Chazal, is unbeknownst to me.

And, quite frankly, callously throwing the term Avodah Zarah about, when speaking of Chassidim following a Rebbe, is not the language of a true Talmid Chacham.

Last but not least, the above Gemarah learns that we must follow the advice of Chazal. Who is anybody to critique that Gemarah?

Yochanan Lavie

Rashi learns there, that fear of your Rebbie (leading Rabbanim down through the ages), should be as the fear of Shamayim.

With all respect, could this not become a slippery slope leading to avodah zarah? Rabbi Schneersohn, zt"l, was worthy of respect, but not of worship, for example.

bewhiskered

steve writes:

Now tell me that Now tell me that this behavior is not worse than a one time, slam, bam, thank you ma'am with a goya?, thank you ma'am with a goya? The Torah's prohibition against sex with gentiles is stated only in regards to marital type arrangements(Lo Titchaten Bam).

Concerning V'Lo Tischatain Bam, the Gemarah in Kiddushin 36b learns that the Issur D'O'Rye'Saw of not formally marrying them, applies only to the seven nations of Canaan (whoever they may be today)- not to other non-Jews. Our Rabbanim intervened, and prohibited all non-Jews from formal marriage, and from Z'nus (fornication), back to the time of the Bais Din of Dovid HaMelech.

However, how can you compare a lav from the Torah that is punishable by death, with a lav miderabbanan.....?

While your classification of Issur D'O'Rye'Saw and D'Rabbanan align accurately with the aforementioned Gemarah in Kiddushin, when it comes to practical Halacha L'Ma'aseh, one is just as much Assur, as is the other.

In the Gemarah of P'sachim 22b, Kiddushin 57a, etc, Rabbi Akiba explained that Es HaShem Elokecha Tira (D'varim 10:20) includes the fear of Talmidei Chachamim, which would make adhering to their words- all their words- a Mitzvas Asei (obligatory positive) D'O'Rye'Saw.

Rashi learns there, that fear of your Rebbie (leading Rabbanim down through the ages), should be as the fear of Shamayim.

It's all very encompassing, this Torah.


bewhiskered

Instead of quoting them, CBS went to Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler of YU for comment.

What exactly does a Ph.D in Microbiology have to do with swinging Chassidim?

Perhaps, Rabbi Dr. Tendler should have been interviewed as the father of a well known right coast Rabbi, who utilized his professional position to induce marginal adult married women (other than his own wife) into having sex with him. And, as the father of an equally prominent left coast Rabbi, who utilized his professional position to induce marginal teenage girls into having sex with him.

B'Chol HaKavod to Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler, perhaps, it might be less detrimental to his image, to publicly state his positions on eukaryotes, fungi, and protists, and to refrain from the subject of unfaithful husbands.

The subjects of virology, mycology, and parasitology at the least, do not bring to mind the subject of extra marital sex in the Tendler family.

Just a Goy

- Yochanan, Zol es zayn dir voyl bakumen!

Yochanan Lavie

Happy Thanksgiving, JAG. Thanks for your kind words.

Just a Goy

- Yochanan, thanks for the insight regarding the true meaning of Thanksgiving! You're a fountain of knowledge!

- alternative childcare, Sorry... didn't know what which direction the sarcasm was pointing... I took the wrong turn. BTW, although I'm young at heart, sheygetz is for a young man... what about middle aged goy?!! And the blessing should do the trick, although I know Archie understands ;-)

Yochanan Lavie

Steve: Thanks for the correction. As I tell my students, the initials after my name are PhD, not GOD.

ACC: I know you were joking, but some chiyocks do get bent out of shape about Thanksgiving, as you well know.

alternative childcare

Yochanan:

I suppose it would be more relevant to this thread if Chassidic swingers wore buckled hats Pilgrim (or Native American) outfits as fetish wear to their kinky events, but I guess Rabbi Riskin wearing Shabbat clothes will do, though that wouldn't quite work in a Village People video :)

I actually know R. Riskin quite well, I can't recall him wearing anything but dress clothes no matter what the occasion, so I'm not sure there's any lesson here :)

I will continue to maintain that I was joking about Thanksgiving as a religious controversy, honest. I cannot tell a lie (wait, that's for Washington's Birthday).

steve

But loose the buckled hats

The correct spelling is lose (unless you want them to loosen their hats, then you should add an 'n' at the end).

Yochanan Lavie

Yochanan is already there, nostalgic for "old school" practice, so even if the current conservative practice became the norm there would be complaints on various issues.

Maven, as usual you are very perceptive, but I think I need to qualify this. I want "old school" in sense of getting back to basics. Obviously adaptations have to be made to suite the times. I am not an Amish-Samaritan hybrid :)

Not that anyone asked: Thanksgiving was modeled on Sukkot, as was Chanukkah. IMO, it is totally appropriate to celebrate. I heard Riskin even wore Shabbat clothes to his Thanksgiving dinner, but that may be apocryphal. The Puritans considered reviving Hebrew. Harvard and Yale were founded as divinity schools (as were all old universities in Europe). Hebrew language was stressed, along with Greek and Latin. The seal of the USA was proposed to be Moshe parting the Sea. I am a member of 2 peoples: Am Yisrael, and the Americans.

In some ways, just like the Puritans wanted to "purify" Christianity of pagan remenants, so too do I wish to see a "purified" traditional Judaism. But loose the buckled hats- they're worse than chassidic headgear :)

BTW: Even Deists like Jefferson thought traditional religion was socially useful in America, because the fear of Divine retribution keeps people in line. I think it works for me, actually.

Shout out to Dr. Dave, Dave, and WSC (and Maven, of course).

Shmarya should have entitled this post: The Joy of Sects.

alternative childcare

Just a Goy-

Lighten up, I was kidding, didn't you see the :) at the end? Just because you are a sheygetz doesn't mean you should lose your sense of humor :)
I'll be eating cranberry sauce out of a can just like any full blooded Americaner, don't worry. I'll even make a brocho on it so that Archie doesn't get upset :)

steve

Spitzer's behavior is worse than eishis ish.

Archie,

When a Jewish male has relations with an eishes ish, he not only defiles his own soul, but defiles that of another Jew and effectively destroys her marriage. When it involves "frum swinging couples", then four souls are defiled and two marriages are wrecked. Now tell me that this behavior is not worse than a one time, slam, bam, thank you ma'am with a goya? The Torah's prohibition against sex with gentiles is stated only in regards to marital type arrangements(Lo Titchaten Bam). Yes, it is a terrible sin and the Kabbalah goes on and on about the punishment in the world to come for those that don't repent. However, how can you compare a lav from the Torah that is punishable by death, with a lav miderabbanan and al pi Kabbalah? Since we don't have the death penalty today to provide kappara for the transgressors, how can you be sure that their punishment in the world to come is less severe than a John School graduate?

Dave

Yochanan,
Excellent post.
Here is an interesting website:
karaiteinsights.com
Check out his post about the laws of Shabbat. I think it is very sensible, a Shabbat that 90 percent of Jews could keep.

Just a Goy

BTW: It is an American tradition.

It is an American tradition, originating in America - and it's only natural to celebrate as Americans'.

If you have a problem with that, seek guidance from your rebbe.

Just a Goy

> 'chukkas HaGoyim' - alternative childcare

Consider the meaning, devoid of theology - To be grateful for what we have; health, family, friends - community.

Again, many of us could use this secular ritual to enlighten ourselves and others. Add readings from the Torah, as a blessing on those present, past, those unable to attend (or unwilling), as well to the entire world.

It is a time for bringing the entire family and friends together for joyful comradery and celebration.

Shalom aleichem and Happy Thanksgiving

maven

Oh, look, someone just released a movie in line with the ones we've been considering earlier, with hot chareidi girl on girl Safed kabbalah: http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/movies/26secr.html?ref=movies

Malki Noname

Whats needed is hidden cameras in the yeshivas, the amount of child molestation that goes on is ridiculous, then we wonder why they grow up and decide to chop the curls off.

Dr. Dave

It's also a day off. So are memorial day, labor day, independence day, new year's day and xmas (though Bill O'Reilly seems to get really bent out of shape about the last one).

alternative childcare

Why should Thanksgiving be a milestone, its chukkas HaGoyim :)

Dr. Dave

Are we going to continue this through Thanksgiving?

Lets sum things up.

There is no perfect person. Moshe Rabeinu sinned. Sinning is not the problem.

The problem is hypocrisy and hubris.

The problem is Eliot Spitzer decrying prostitution and then getting hoist on his own petard.

The problem is Jimmy Swaggart preaching fire and brimstone and then asking his prostitute to bring her 12 year old daughter the next time.

The problem is Ted Haggard, leader of the National Association of Evangelicals decrying yet engaging in homosexuality.

The problem is yeshivas declaring their sanctity while shielding child abusers.

And the problem here is a group of people that look down upon their brother Jews as sinners while privately commiting much worse.

They fear man but not G-d.

Do not ever be intimidated by someone telling you that they are closer to G-d than you.

The people who are quickest to consign others to hell are going there themsleves!

WoolSilkCotton

Yochanan, you remain the most consistent and reasonable person here.

A Happy Thanksgiving to all.

maven

One can guess that had Karaitism become the dominant normative faith, we'd have blogs complaining about the strictures they enforce. No matter what system is set up outside of the individual's decision, there will be resistance, this is the old heteronomy vs autonomy battle going back to Kant. Yochanan is already there, nostalgic for "old school" practice, so even if the current conservative practice became the norm there would be complaints on various issues.
The same holds true about sexual practice, the range of human desires is so vast that no matter where you draw the line, there will be those beyond the pale. But lines must be drawn for society to function, or we'd have lots of Bundys and Dahmers, and I think all functioning societies accept this. However, historically often the lines drawn are too tight, leading to reaction, as has happened in many societies (cf the victorian era and its aftermath). Often there is a responsive re-drawing of certain lines, which is what is happening today, which then provokes resistance from those who are more comfortable with the previous policies. The sad part is when the same people policing the restrictive lines are the most blatant violators of these rules, and that is clearly the case in many of the more colorful stories, from Spitzer and Lanner and Sobel, etc on to various participants on tznious patrols who get their own S&M fulfillment through harrassing so-called wayward women (and good old Dr. Freud was on the mark in this regard).

To some degree are not the specifically religious violators and the frum world in agreement? The frum say that these things are assur because Hashem said so, and those on the fringes say, if its only about Hashem's word, well, we think Hashem thought otherwise or doesn't care so much, and we are "OK". The only response from the frum world would be, like Archie's, to threaten punishment in the next world. That is clearly inadequate to control certain offenders who have desires but are "learned", and have in their own mind made deals with Gd or figure perhaps Gd is so busy with Nazis, etc, that he won't bother with a rebbi abusing talmidim, etc, or that caning teen girls is really for their own good, etc, or at the very least, we'll deal with it in the next world but have fun now (this is a well known reaction to Hindu concepts of punishment through reincarnation- let that guy in the next rebirth deal with it, I'm having fun now...) These cases are where Law and other forms of conscience must step in, and "thank Gd" for this blog and those like it where a voice can be given to those who have suffered.
That being said, I think the chassidic "swinger" issue as presented is just too funny (having grown up around Boro Park, and not being able to even visualize it), and the movie titles submitted here are too funny (no one for Nights of Vaise Zocken?). The Jewish way was always to be able to laugh at these kinds of things. May Yochanan write many more songs!

Yochanan Lavie

WSC: There is a counter-tradition to the rabbinic one, the Karsites (www.karaitekorner.com) They take the milk/meat stuff more literally, and just refrain from seething a calf in its mother's milk. But they'll eat other forms of basar v'chalav. They are more maikel on some things, and more machmer on others.

Compassionate rabbis have always found loopholes to facilitate observance while fulfilling the obligation. Today's k'tanim just say no.

Ideally, a new traditionalist Judaism would combine the best of both worlds, based upon an examination of the sources. I wouldn't want change things merely for convenience, but to bring people closer to a sense of God in their lives. IMO, that's a basic need, like sexuality (that may even be hard-wired in the brain).

Liberal religion looses adherents because it's too PC and too undemanding. People don't respect that which comes easily. Traditional religion has the structure and authority, but is too draconian. I would like to see something like a mixture of MO, old-school Conservative (before it went PC), and even some karaite practices.

Similarly, the torah being man-made or the word of God is no a zero sum game. The torah may be a mix of inspiration and direct revelation. Moshe didn't need to take diction in order for it to be holy, and it parts are allegorical rather than literal.

Archie Bunker

WoolSilkCotton said:

"your wonderful orthodox world already justifies pedophilia ('marrying' girls 12 years old or even younger), and they don't seem too bothered by child molestation.
NO other race, religion, or ethnicity among the recognized civilized societies of the modern world countenances those behaviors."

First of all, stop blaming the religion and it's adherents for the acts of some depraved individuals.

The only sect that condones marriages to "twelve year olds" is a group of Satmar outcasts living in Quebec's Laurentian mountains whose supreme leader is a convicted felon.

Pedophilia is completely unjustifiable. I suggest you check out the Unorthodox Jew blog and the rabbis who support the author's efforts.

You cleverly hedge yourself by using the world "civilized" but the fact remains that several religions and ethnicities tolerate or even encourage forms of child abuse. And you are unwittingly hoisting yourself up by your own Liberal standards in indirectly calling these various ethnic minorities UNCIVILIZED. And while you're at it, the United States is also considered uncivilized by many Liberals for giving the death penalty to minors.

"most of its rules were fabricated by middled-aged guys from the Middle Ages who wanted to keep themselves in power"

You are either completely ignorant of the origins of the Torah, which I doubt, or you breathe denial to make yourself feel better as you throw off the yoke of Heaven.

"We are not a bunch of amoral savages"

I once read somewhere about significant numbers of Reform & Conservative Jews who pursue the swinger lifestyle.

I also know first hand of an emergency meeting at the UJA when they discovered an online Jewish community forum they funded was being used by swingers to hook up with other marrieds and singles. The funding was not renewed and the forum closed. You see, at least NOT YET, secular Jews still don't OFFICIALLY condone adultery.

Archie Bunker

Dan Gambiera,

You obviously know nothing about my personal views and are confusing me with the various knee-jerk critics of Shmarya that pop up here.

I encourage exposing abuser rabbis although for different reasons that Shmarya. SHmarya seeks to undermine orthodox Judaism while I seek to restore it's integrity by discrediting and removing from power the abusive and corrupt rabbis, a phenomenon of the last few decades.

I'm not just giving you conjecture on the slippery slope to Sodom. Some of your more "prominent" fellow Liberals have come up with this crap justifying beastiality like Princeton University's Peter Singer.

And just like the homo lobby pushes their militant agenda on the rest of society, you have freaks like NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) trying to legalize pedophilia, although granted violating a child is much worse than consentual abominations with adults.

We know that homosexual acts are prohibiting by the word of G-d, despite the denial of non-believers like yourself who claim the Bible is man made.

And again, there is no disobedience to authority when the "authority" is corrupt and has no business being in power in the first place. The Torah mandates that we not give respect to rabbis when they are responsible for desecrating G-d's name.

WoolSilkCotton

+++As far as the Torah death penalty goes, everybody...find justification to ignore it.+++
+++Yochanan Lavie | November 26, 2008 at 06:52 AM +++

YL, I agree with you.
But how does one go about ignoring parts of the Torah that are very clear, such as the death penalty for so many violations, while going nuts observing other items to the extreme, such as separating milk and meat, which is really not that clearly stated? I guess the ortho world decided a long time ago what they would pick and choose, and now everyone is stuck with those decisions.

Yochanan Lavie

"And the strangest part may be that with all the racism among the Hassidim, some of their gay men just can't get enough black meat."

Attraction/repulsion are 2 sides of the same coin. Fascination with the "Other:" Interracial porn is most popular in the South.

The torah does not prohibit having a Gay orientation. It prohibits anal sex between men. I am Libertarian about Gayness, but if you want to be shomer mitzvot you have to observe the prohibition against male anal sex.

Archie's fear about a slippery slope (as opposed to slippery soap) are not unjustified. However, animals and minors cannot truly give consent. That is why such acts are heinous, and IMO prohibited by the torah.

As far as the Torah death penalty goes, everybody from Karaites to Samaritans to Rabbinites find justification to ignore it. Why beat a dead horse (no unsavory pun intended, for once).

ed

I am reminded of the joke about a randy woman who approaches a hasidic man in hotel lobby. She tells him that "I have always wanted to have sex with a hasidic man. I want to run my hands through your peyot. I want to twirl you gartel and roll around in your beckishe. Please come up to my room with me." The hasidic man looks at her and in a Brooklyn-Yiddish infelcetd accent says "and vat's in it for me?"

Seriously, the article and comment stream leave me very depressed. The "frum swingers" sound manic to me. It's as if they are trying to either feel alive, numb the feelings of emptiness, and express rage at the community through self destructive behaviors. If there is a God and he/she is merciful, God will understand and feel compassion for his children (adult and children) who are suffering. I think there is a need for intensive therapy and counseling on an indiviudal level. Although I dont think this is possible, there needs to be a thorough and brutally honest evalution (cheshbon ha'nefesh) of the orthodox edcuational and value systems as there appears to be a major disconnect between the professed ideals of that community and the reality of many people who were raised or claim to be orthodox.

WoolSilkCotton

+++There's no end to this Liberal horse manure. Next it will be beastiality while they gear up to justify pedophilia.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | November 25, 2008 at 11:30 PM+++

Archie, your wonderful orthodox world already justifies pedophilia ('marrying' girls 12 years old or even younger), and they don't seem too bothered by child molestation.
NO other race, religion, or ethnicity among the recognized civilized societies of the modern world countenances those behaviors.

Your orthodox world ain't all it's cracked up to be. In fact, most of its rules were fabricated by middled-aged guys from the Middle Ages who wanted to keep themselves in power. Since orthodoxy, by definition, is incapable of change, you're stuck forever to obey these artificial rules.

The vast majority of nonJews and nonortho Jews I know are good decent people. We are not a bunch of amoral savages.
I wish I could say the same for all the ultra-ortho people I know.

Malki Noname

I am 24 female and divorced I had a very strict upbringing, I attended a VERY large strict all girls school (obviously). The abuse still goes on till this day, what a surprise beating a girls behind for wearing a skirt a bit too long isnt a solution, the abuse in boys and girls school have to stop already!

Malki Noname

I am 24 female and divorced I had a very strict upbringing, I attended a VERY large strict all girls school (obviously). The abuse still goes on till this day, what a surprise beating a girls behind for wearing a skirt a bit too long isnt a solution, the abuse in boys and girls school have to stop already!

Dan Gambiera

Archie, can't you come up with any original material? This shit is staler than last year's matzoh. The dart hits, but it doesn't stick. And I'll tell you why.

The way you look at things homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality are wrong because Jeebus or Mumbo Jumbo Gawd of the Congo said so. Man-on-man is just the same as man-on-cocker spaniel or man-on-boy. They're horrible sins and deserve death. Anyone who tolerates one of them has rejected a Divine Commandments and has no standards. Sooner or later all the others will go, too.

The way I - and probably Sarah - look at it they are completely different. It's about trust, consent and a relationship between equals. If two or more competent adults want to have sex that's their business as long as they don't involve anyone such as a spouse or bystander unwillingly.

Children are not capable of giving consent. A pedophilic sexual relationship is not even close to being between equals. The child will almost certainly take serious damage and doesn't even fully understand what is happening and what it means. Sexual activity carries the risk of pregnancy and serious diseases. The child/victim is not capable of making a rational adult choice about these things.

It's even worse with animals. A child will grow up to be a competent adult some day unless, G-d forbid, there's some sort of brain irregularity. The animal never will. It is a dumb beast not endowed with reason.

But let's get back to the molesters for a moment, shall we? You've been enraged at Shmarya for bringing up rabbinical sexual abuse. But you're quick to condemn Sarah for tolerating consensual sexual relations between adult men. You're certainly against pedophilia. No doubt about it. And I'll defend you tooth and nail against anyone who says you support baby-rapers.

Why the disconnect? I'll tell you.

It comes back to authority. If rabbis and teachers have illicit sexual relations with children or teenagers that's bad. But exposing them and punishing them for their crimes undermines the authority of people you respect. The urge to protect children is at odds with the even stronger urge to protect the community which gives you your identity. Shaming them reflects on good people like yourself. It makes you angry. So you lash out at the messenger.

To someone like Shamarya or Sarah or me that makes the sin much worse. The diddling rabbis compound the crime of pedophile rape with the abuse of authority.

You see disobedience to authority and damage to the reputation of the community as the greatest sins. I reserve that for harm done to innocents, particularly when those entrusted with power exploit it to facilitate crimes against the powerless.

There are homosexual Hassidim. That's just the way they are. All the praying and trips to the mikveh in the world won't change them no matter how much they want it. Marriage is the preferred state in Judaism, and certain male sex acts are completely taboo. They will not be happy trying to live with their essential natures and the rules. Many will look for happiness on the down low. If they do, better they protect themselves and their spouses. What's worse, a guy sucking dick or a guy sucking dick, dying of a horrible disease and giving it to his wife and their unborn child?

Sarah

Breaking news: Reb Yosef has ruled better they should do it in the mikvah than in the street and scare the donkeys. Or with the donkeys.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Don't eat Agri turkeys.

B.BarNavi

Swinging hasidim kinda turns me on, actually. I'd go for them bald heads wrapped under layers of tznius and them shtickel beards and payos.

(Humor alert to the ironically named Archie Bunker!)

Remember, it's not their sexual promiscuity we're disapproving of per se, it's the hypocrisy of imposing strict sexual mores, and then being surprised when there's severe blowback (that just happens to tear apart families). We're lamenting the consequences of community willful ignorance, if anything.

Just an afterthought: I am not in favor of promiscuity in ANY sphere, secular or ultra-religious or otherwise.

B.BarNavi

So two consenting adults == fucking animals and children?

Oh fuck it, I'm tired of dredging out this talking point. No one brought up those topics before you did. So who's REALLY got the sick mind here?

Archie Bunker

"I see nothing wrong with GLBT Hassidim following their hearts or other organs wherever that leads them. Like you I am concerned for them"

If Sarah's heart can stop bleeding borscht for a moment, she might want to get her eyes checked out.

There's no end to this Liberal horse manure. Next it will be beastiality while they gear up to justify pedophilia.

Archie Bunker

I really can't respond to every comment on this thread because I don't have time and if I did it turns my stomach.

WoolSilkCotton, stop exaggerating about death penalties and looking for excuses not to be religious.

Steve, we have debated this before, but trust me, Spitzer's behavior is worse than eishis ish. While the penalty dealt by the Torah may be harsher in this world, the din shamayim is infinitely worse in the next world. So learn the Geonim. Not to mention the fate of Shmelliot's various whores who never asked for such a raw deal. Vemayvin yavin.

Sarah

Dan,
Believe me I see nothing wrong with GLBT Hassidim following their hearts or other organs wherever that leads them. Like you I am concerned for them -- and also for the wives they come home to -- that these men have absolutely no knowledge of safe sex or STDs. And it's a damn shame these Jews have to do it on the down low as the goyim they live with in CH would say.
Sarah

Call It Sleep

The possibilites sure are endless, but for those keeping score at home, how about:

"Chavies Night Out"

"Shaina Is A Shanda"

"Pinchus Meets Pesee"

WoolSilkCotton

All the usual loonies on VIN are going ballistic with this story.

Dan Gambiera

WLS and Just a Goy: Thanks for the kind words. The Truly Frum(tm) will try to eviscerate me out my ass for this one. I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

Sarah: Pascal said "The heart hath its reasons which reason knoweth not." The same can be said of other organs a bit further South. If you're correct let's hope the abhorrence of secular education doesn't extend to safe sex education as well. I'm willing to bet that it does :(

Sarah

I wonder why they don't get into all the same-sex cruising and hooking up among the Haredim? Some of them find partners in their own communities through networks and others go outside and even have sex with goyim -- or, oy, even worse, Conservative or Reform Jews. A former rabbi at NYC's GLBT shul used to get calls and visits from queer frummies asking to be fixed up and almost all of them were married. And the strangest part may be that with all the racism among the Hassidim, some of their gay men just can't get enough black meat.

Just a Goy

'I Want To Be A Rebbe'

Video found with translation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkJRKIPmiF8

Again, be quick before its gone!


Just a Goy

Audio Only version of 'I want To Be A Rebbe' found.

Better be quick before its gone, too.

http://collectivisticindividualism.blogspot.com/2008/11/do-you-want-to-be-rebbe-interview-with.html

Enjoy :-)

Dan, brilliantly summarized. I second you, WSL.
I think this is a case of "le mieux est l'ennemi du bien"- "the better is the enemy of the good". In an effort to be super-duper-frum, these Hassidic folks (some not all of them) fall down morally.
The future of Judaism is neo-Karaism, or as I would call it Rational Traditional Judaism- ie. the best of rabbinic and karaite Judaism combined, ie. study the Tanach and try to think for yourself, and then IF you're Really stumped, Then and Only Then ask a rabbi.

WoolSilkCotton

+++Posted by: Dan Gambiera | November 25, 2008 at 08:23 PM+++

Brilliantly summarized, Dan.

Just a Goy

Sad news all... 'I Want To Be A Rebbe' video is no longer available on YouTube due to a copyright claim by Tamar Gintzborg, as of Nov 25, 2008.

Guess he reads FM as well!

I watched it just a few days ago... hilarious and hip!

Dan Gambiera

People have sex. They don't always do it the way that social mores dictate. It's been that way forever. The only thing you can do is make choices you can live with.

One of the big culprits here is the increasing rigidity of marriage customs in 21st Century Haredi enclaves. In small town or village life young people meet and interact. It's absolutely inevitable. When they do they're prone to make their own choices. They won't always make good ones, but that as they say is life.

It's only in the modern disconnected urban world that you can even have practical separation of the sexes. It only really started in Af-frickin'-ghanistan with the destruction of the country after the Soviet invasion. It's much more of a problem in the oil-rich Arab states that can afford to keep women economically dependent and absorb the costs of separation.

What you have here is a combination several things.

The first is neurosis. When you can not control the world around you the neurotic response is to obsessively clamp down on what you think you can. In this case, the outside world is frightening and alien. So the community exerts an extreme degree of influence on marriage. Step out of line, wear a red blouse, talk to boys if you are a girl, report crimes to the police, fail to eat cholent or allow the tiniest smidgen of doubt as to the date of your mother's ritual ablutions and or choose a mate based on our own standards, and you will lose all societally-sanctioned breeding rights. By any objective standard it's absolutely insane.

We have elaborate mechanisms for determining the suitability of sex and breeding partners from the ability to determine complex immunologic profiles by smell (true fact, that) to visually determining from photographs whether a man likes babies (also verified) or a woman's basic capacity to survive pregnancy. The frum ghetto system of mate selection does away with all of these.

When your mate is forced upon you, Tevya's Daughters notwithstanding you get marriage without love. Yes, there may be all sorts of other deep attachment, especially over time. The passion that supports those later deep bonds? The deck is stacked against it if you eliminate that initial attraction.

The ineluctable corollary is nicely stated by Benjamin Franklin:

Where there is marriage without love, there will be love without marriage

The increasingly strict standards designed to isolate the community from the real world and perpetuate its customs will erode those stated standards. When people can not live happily under a set of customs they will violate them. When they violate these customs privately they may redouble their efforts to appear to comply so as not to suffer community sanctions. The beards will get longer. The hats will get blacker. The butcher will have to sell only Hyper Mega Glatt Kosher brisket. But they will abandon them in their hearts.

The presence of alternatives causes even more problems. If the whole world were frum there would be nowhere to go. You would have to comply or die. But there is an alternative - secular society. The destruction of Reform, Conservative and increasingly Modern Orthodox as alternatives to ultra-Orthodox hegemony makes the choice between compliance and complete abandonment of Jewish identity very stark.

This is why Haredi taboos concerning education and access to information are so important to the community. A secular education allows a person to understand the real world. More than that, it makes it possible to survive economically. A Haredi education stresses the minutia of dogma and every more elaborate taboos - laws which can not be questioned, authorities who are beyond reproach. Obedience, albeit a trained and intelligent obedience, is the key to status, control of resources, acceptance and survival.

Even access to independent information is dangerous. If a person sees that people who do not follow his tribal peculiarities lead happy fulfilling lives he is apt to stop thinking of outsiders as the Hated Other and adopt those customs which seem best to him. This, not pornography, is the real reason most of the Haredi reject modern information technology.

Comply or die. Make alternatives quite literally unthinkable. Obedience is valued above everything. Outsiders aren't even human the same way as members of the tribe. Strict control is exercised over the most basic needs such as food and sex.

In the end it's like bailing the sea with a sieve. It's already failing. The question is will it take Judaism down with it or will we have a new reformist movement that will not be hijacked by refugees romanticizing a Talibanesque past that never was.

Yochanan Lavie

Maven: Wouldn't it be "D'vorah does Boro Park?"

What about "Rambam, Thank you, ma'am"? (That one isn't mine- it's from the novel "Guide to the Perplexed").

Or: "Beyond the Green Mezuzah."

"The Soton in Miss Jones?"

"I am Curious Yoel?"

The possibilities are endless.

anon

"anon, did you mean the chicken breasts and thighs? "

I am not sure if it was the chicken or my breast/thighs. I experienced a lot more sexual perversion living in Jerusalem/Charedi neighborhood than in the United States...peeping Tom, public masterbation (multiple times), lascivious comments, the rabbi putting the moves on me.

Trust me...I am just an average looking woman.

maven

anon, did you mean the chicken breasts and thighs?

I dunno. I can't help but giggle through this whole discussion. Pierced nipples at the mikva? Getting aroused during kaporos? Chopped meat fantasies? Someone ought to convince a Jew like Ron Jeremy that it may be time to film "Debbie Does Boro Park". Now I understand the pashkeval years back banning nylons with the line along the seam. Who knew how steamy the haredi world could be?
I certainly never felt this way in all the years I had lived in it, au contraire!

Yochanan Lavie

WSC: I'm not fluent, but I understand a bissel. (i studied Yiddish academically, as well as German. My mother's parents spoke Yiddish, and my father's parents spoke German, but they were all fluent in English and raised my parents in English).

I might still get it. And I love Fyvush Finkel. He was great in "Boston Public."

anon

"can't imagine anyone thinking about chopped meat while hooking up"

Maybe not meat, but chicken...true story...

When I was frum living in Isarel I did kapparot with a live chicken at a butcher. After you swung the chicken over your head you had to stand in line and watch it get slaughtered to ensure that it went to the poor. After I swung the chicken I got in line. The other women had husbands to stand in line with their chicken, I had myself. Within minutes, men were yelling at me about being a woman, etc, etc. I could not stand in line. I tried to put up a fight, but it was fruitless. Finally, a man offered to stand in line with my chicken.

The men stood in line to WATCH a chicken's neck get sliced, put on a hook, and then get de-feathered through a machine. Although there was blood everywhere, I guess the thought of woman’s breast and thighs in line with them was just too much. I know I should have been grateful but I was a silly BT, who wanted to do the kapparot process exactly right. I was pissed.

critical_minyan

i actually met some of these chasidic swingers. what i found most revolting was their use of yiddish and their yiddish accents as they talked about sex.
they said stuff like, "she has a geshmakt pushka", or "let's go home and get leibedik", the combination of the fiddler on the roof accents and the yeshivish words they threw into the conversation is what make their activities seem even more creepy.

WoolSilkCotton

Yochanan, you would love this-

There's an old Yiddish song by Fyvush Finkel (recorded in late 1940's), talking about the breakup of his marriage, in which he refers to his wife having an affair with the butcher. The lyrics say [this is my translation] "...the butcher would come over to deliver his meat..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HcvNl1-TE&feature=related

If you understand Yiddish, you'll find the song hysterical!


Yochanan Lavie

Maven: I needed a rhyme for "feet" so I decided to use my old standby. Although "meat" is a vulgar, juvenile description of the penis.

WoolSilkCotton

So when will Crown Heights have its own Modesty Patrol?
Posters are already up.

maven

There is an episode in Alfabeta d'ben sira, which is a questionable pseudoepigraphic midrash, that states that Yirmiyahu was forced to be motzi zera l'vatala in the mikva and that sperm swum around for a while, and impregnated his daughter leading to the birth of Ben Sira. (not that this has anything to do with Chassidish swingers, but there was some question about shelo k'darko biology earlier. Personally, I think there are unhappily married people having affairs in every culture, and its only a story in terms of the chassidic world because of the outfits that makes it a "story"; this comes up every so often when someone in a bekesha gets caught with a hooker, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a New Yorker might say, what else is new.
Didnt anyone read the Naipaul essay in the NY Times this week?).

Yochanan, pretty good overall, but how did you work in a Rubashkin reference in a song about getting horny? I can't imagine anyone thinking about chopped meat while hooking up, or is that some kind of boro park thing? I can understand maybe gefilte fish, but meat? :)

WoolSilkCotton

The Torah seems to prescribe the death penalty for just about any misbehavior, even jaywalking. So why don't the frummies go around slaughtering one another over various minor infractions?
I bet they would, if they weren't afraid of American law enforcement authorities.

ELLIOT SPITZER

can we talk about agriprocesssors-i dont need any more attention

Yochanan Lavie

What Spitzer did was deplorable (because he was married, and she was young enough to be his daughter.) But maybe he was ratted on because he was about to investigate Wall Street. You never know...

steve

There is no such death penalty for the Eliot Spitzer's of the world. It's better that they should cheat with gentiles than with married Jewish women. It's even better if they patronize prostitutes, as long as they change their clothing. Also, if they get caught, they should take off their yarmulkes when they are sentenced to attend John School.

steve

Leviticus 20:10

"If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

steve

That is not true at all. If you look at the actual words of the Torah it says "adultry". Technically, you have no idea what adultry is

Devarim (Deuteronomy 22:22)

"If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel."

Yochanan Lavie

Thanks, nachos. My last few didn't go over so well, so I thought I would sit out for awhile.

nachos

At last yochanan has new material!!!

Yochanan Lavie

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/24/us/24sex.html?emc=eta1

Pastor’s Advice for Better Marriage: More Sex

Yochanan Lavie

Miss Jew (apologies to the Rolling Stones)

I've been davening so long
I've been schluffing all alone
Gott, I miss you
I've been hanging on the net
I've been waiting on my get
I want to shtupp you

Oy oy oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oy ooy oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oy yoy yoy (2x)

Well, I've been haunted in my schluff
You've been starring in my dreams
"L-rd" I miss you
I've been waiting in the mikveh
Been wailing like Hatikvah
When the phone rings
It's just some chevra of mine that say,
Nu, vos tot zich, man?
Were gonna come around at twelve
With some Bais Yaakov girls that are just dyin' to meet you.
We're gonna bring a case of Kedem
Hey, let's go be "ovor negiah"
You know, like we used to

Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah

Oh waiting for taharah's too long
Oh bubbeleh why you wait so long
Won't you come on! come on!

I've been walking in Boro Park
Singing after dark
People think I'm meshugah
I've been schuckling on my feet
Davening for Glatt meat
Asking people, what's the matter with Rubbishcan?

Sometimes I want to say to myself
Sometimes I say

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh

Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
Oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh oooh
I won't miss you maideleh

I guess I'm lying to myself
I'm just a Jew like everyone else
Lord I won't miss being frum
I have a blatt gemara mind
But it's "Kiddushin" all the time
Nu, I won't miss shul, bubbeleh, yeah

Lord, I miss you maideleh

Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah

Lord, I miss you maideleh
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah aaah
Aaah aaah aaah aaah (2x)

Yochanan Lavie

"and a Jew named Saul was no neurotic about the impossibility of being perfect that he started"

should read: "so neurotic about..."

Yochanan Lavie

And isn't sex's joy, intimacy and pleasure, a gift from G-d?

Yes, but some relations are forbidden by the Torah. Permitted relations are supposed to be enjoyed, and are a gift. That's why legally married couples are encouraged to have sex on Shabbat; it's oneg (joy of) Shabbat.

What ever happens between a man and wife, piercings or not, is it not a private matter?

The halachic world is divided on this. I lean towards more liberal opinions that say anything that promotes pleasure and intimacy in a marriage is permitted (except adultery, etc.), even if it's not procreative. But many authorities are more draconian.

There are adult toys which assist, enhance pleasure - are these forbidden as well OR is it, G-d only intended sex for procreation, devoid of pleasure?

See above. It depends on whom you ask. I think the "procreation only" response is culturally influenced by Christianity's Original Sin doctrine (not the way we interpret Genesis) and by ascetic Middle Eastern sects. But again, there are many who vehemently disagree. We have no Pope, so you have to find an authority whom you trust. I am very pro-Sex, as long as it's not expressly forbidden in the miqra, and there are rabbis who back me up.

Judgementalism: This is hard, because I am of 2 minds about this. My conservative/traditionalist side would say that marriage is sacred (pro-marital sex though I am) and "swinging" is a grave sin that undermines a basic principle of the civilization: the family. Also, the chillul Hashem factor is devastating. The Nazis used the image of Jews as sexual deviants in their propaganda, for example, as do Muslim fanatics today.

My libertarian side inclines me to live and let live, and not to judge lest I be judged. I am a sinner too (but not a swinger, sorry folks). As long as you keep it private, keep it consensual, don't hurt anybody or frighten the horses, go for it, even if I don't like your choices.

I can certainly forgive frum people for not being 100% perfect. Nobody is, and a Jew named Saul was no neurotic about the impossibility of being perfect that he started a new, easier, religion of his own. 613 mitzvot is the goal, but 612 ain't bad, and is better than nothing. Sometimes Orthodox is "all-or-nothing-ism."

How do I reconcile my 2 viewpoints? An occasional lapse is one thing; a habitual one is another. Private lives are one thing; public chillul Hashem is another. Weakness is one thing; crass, cynical, hypocrisy is another. Having premarital sex because you're middle aged and unmarried is one thing; violating your wedding vows (even if your spouse is into it) is another. That does not make lapses "okay." It just makes them forgiveable. I prefer to judge actions rather than individuals, because you need to see people holistically.

"Do I contradict myself?/ Very well then! I contradict myself./ I am large. I contain multitudes." Walt Whitman, "Song of Myself."

anon

"The Torah considers both of them adulterers and liable to the death penalty"

That is not true at all. If you look at the actual words of the Torah it says "adultry". Technically, you have no idea what adultry is. Just like it says "keep" the sabbath or "gaurd" the sabbath. What is the defination of "keep" or "gaurd"? Not ripping toilet paper or not using toothpaste? Maybe, maybe not...It all depends on the rabbis' interpretations, which are different.

According to Rashi,(see Rashi on Gen. 22:20). Isaac is 40 years old when he marries Rebecca (Gen. 25:20), making Rebecca 3 years old at the time of her marriage. BUT... the OU sees it differntly. "another opinion found in the midrashim, and followed by some other commentaries that Rivkah (Rebecca in english) was fourteen years old" http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5764/toldot64.htm

which rabbi is correct? I guess if you like 3 year old girls, then Rashi. If you like 14 year olds, then the OU.

If you really want to follow the torah it also says in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 that if a man rapes a unmarried girl, he has to give her father money and then marry her.

All I can say is thank G-d I am no longer frum today and thak G-d I live under America's crazy laws and not the charedi rules of the rabbis OR the Shariah laws of the Muslims! I would rather argue gay marriage then marriage of a 3 year old!!


uncle joe mccarthy

ya...lets blame it on the internet

20 years ago, i spent a shabbos in boro park...my host took me for a friday night walk, and he showed me the whore houses...he also told me about the underground wife swapping that was going on even then

and great choice talking to moshe tendler...how about having him explain his 2 sons?

what this story shows is that counseling services are needed for frum couples...as is education before the marriage...which includes sex education.

steve

What ever happens between a man and wife, piercings or not, is it not a private matter?

Yes it is, and it should stay that way!

Just a Goy

'If one immerses while contemplating their next lustful rendezvous...' - Archie

But if they were contemplating their next encounter with their spouse...? Let's forget about the swinging, as the aspect of the mikva may do nothing for the participant, if they repeat the act.

I understand one shouldn't enter the mikva without ritualistic pure thoughts and intentions... But I'm beginning to get the impression of hypocrisy here - Has not the mikva ritual become a sexist's ritual, as men are no longer called upon to purify themselves after intimacy.

And isn't sex's joy, intimacy and pleasure, a gift from G-d?

What ever happens between a man and wife, piercings or not, is it not a private matter?

There are adult toys which assist, enhance pleasure - are these forbidden as well OR is it, G-d only intended sex for procreation, devoid of pleasure?

WoolSilkCotton

Some of the rationales offered on this thread read like Oscar Wilde satire.
The Hasidic crowd has discovered the world of sex for enjoyment, only a century after the rest of the world already did.
Congratulations, frummies.

steve

If a husband and wife decide TOGETHER that they want to have an open relationship, then I do not think it is “adultery

The Torah considers both of them adulterers and liable to the death penalty, with witnesses and warning. So yes, they would be prosecuted by religious law if we had a Sanhedrin today. I only mention religious law because they consider themselves "frum". Besides their morally reprehensible behavior, their decision to go public and agree to be interviewed by CBS adds insult to injury. The sin of causing chillul hashem can never be rectified. Add it all up, these people are not too "frum". A Jew who does not keep any of the commandments and is totally detached from religion, but does not flaunt his indiscretions, should be considered more "frum" than the subjects of this report.

I'll bet anyone on this forum that the true statistical numbers of such deviant orthodox Jews is most likely not even close to 1% of the total orthodox population (including all of NY, NJ and Israel). Having said that, i think that orthodox Jews, as a group, need not exhibit any shame whatsoever as a result of this report.

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