Our Pagan Yom Kippur

…For more than 25 centuries, we Jews have stood atremble before the highest of benches during the first days of the seventh lunar month, which we call Tishrei. The peculiar rites we perform during the Ten Days of Penitence are designed to ensure us another year of life.

That, at least, is the belief of the 15% of Jews who think that God simply dictated the Torah and all Jewish laws — even those laws promulgated by the rabbis in the Middle Ages — to Moses at Mount Sinai.

The remaining 85% of us, however, might be comforted to know that Jews haven’t been the only nation performing such elaborate rituals of sin-purging around this time of year.…

… We might have our Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur in the month of Tishrei, but our extinct Babylonian cousins celebrated Akitu and Kuppuru in the month of Tashritu.

Many differences of ritual and theology existed between Babylonians and Jews. While the Babylonians worshipped a pantheon of gods led by Marduk, we have only one. Our autumnal High Holy Days last 10 days, but they had 12.

But the parallels are truly intriguing. First there is the obvious similarity of names above. Secondly, both Jews and Babylonians saw the beginning of the seventh month as the world’s birthday. Third, both observed two New Year celebrations, just as the Torah instructs us; the other was held at the onset of the first month, Nisanu, just before our Passover.

Fourth is the Kuppuru rite, in which a ritually slaughtered animal carcass is deployed and its blood scattered to purge demons and clear impurities from the temple of Marduk for the upcoming year, much as ancient Israel’s high priest did in the Yom Kippur ritual recalled in our late-morning Avodah service.

While some of us might regard the jury as still out on the efficacy of the carcass in demon-purging, there is a further, striking parallel to Yom Kippur’s scapegoat ritual as described in Leviticus 16.

Our ancestors borrowed a great deal from a towering, imperial Mesopotamian culture that for centuries dominated the Fertile Crescent. That we used Babylonian calendar names is widely known. Semitic peoples had used the lunar calendar from time immemorial, but named their months differently. What the (Hebrew-speaking) Canaanites called Aviv, Ziv, Eytanim and Bul, the practical-minded Hebrews first renamed months One, Two, Seven and Eight. The Babylonians called them Nisanu, Ayaru, Tashritu and Archasamnu. In time, our ancestors replaced their numerals with the Babylonian names, many of which are named in honor of Mesopotamian gods.

Yet it wasn’t only Nisan, Iyar, Tishrei and Marchesvan that our ancestors borrowed from the Babylonians. Our forefathers took Akitu and the ritual of Kuppuru and reshaped them in their own monotheistic image into what eventually became Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

For centuries, Israelites had two main festivals: Sukkot in the fall and Pesach in the spring — seasonal harvest festivals adopted and adapted from their Canaanite neighbors. New moons were also observed throughout the Levant, as they are today by observant Jews.

The new moon on the seventh month, however, was considered, to paraphrase a more recent Mesopotamian dictator, the mother of new moons.

What made the new moon of the seventh month special? Most of all, it was the number seven, which seems to hold deep significance throughout the scriptures. The seventh day is the Sabbath. The seventh year is the Sabbatical Year, while seven years squared is the Jubilee. Even the Yom Kippur rite involves seven splatters of blood. The new moon of the seventh month would likewise have been seen as important.…

Uzi Silber: Finding the Scapegoat.

Comments

[Joel]

I dont know. It seem just as likely that these rituals were the result of a monotheistic strain going as far back in time to pre-date Abraham and might have been as far as Noah. And that their inclusion in Babylonian religious rite was due to Monotheistic influence on them rather then the other way around. After all, the commentary about Abrahams travels notes that Abrahams pursuit of Monotheisim was not unique. His fathers travels (that he subsequently continued) were to centers of (non Jewish) Monotheistic thought and that it had appealed to him (his dad). I think its a big mistake to think that "jews" or whatever you want to call the ancient ancestors of the Jews, had a monopoly on Monotheism and that Abraham was "the" only professor of it. He was our professor of it, but thats all. Other types of monotheistic religion coexisted Im sure. Furthermore, when other monotheistic rites are found in other cultures/religions poly or mono theistic, folks cry that "see we took it from the pagans!!!" Its not impossible, but its also not likely. Centers of monotheistic thought were abound and we dont have a stranglehold on it. Its very likely that in order to entice the population to follow a pagan religion that the local practitioners incorporated the "day of atonement" ritual into their religion.
All in all, I am still very comfortable with there being a monothesitic "day of atonement" that survived from ancient Monotheistic religions (sanctioned by God) and was even incorporated into pagan beliefs when they became popular.
Once agin this all stems from the fallacy that most observant Jews unfortunately follow, that we are the ONLY monotheistic religion that God sanctions.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya should change the headline to "My Pagan ..." from "Our Pagan ..."

If the other "85%" doesn't get with the program, they like others before them in history, will disappear because either their children intermarry or because they don't have any children.

Let Shmarya keeping pishing in the wind for his followers that have no future.

[Archie Bunker]

What Shmarya & Uzi Silber conveniently ignore is that other religions have "borrowed" heavily from Jewish rites in the Torah.

[rebitzman]

And?

[Archie Bunker]

So just who is this misguided Uzi Silber putz?

"The Heretic" SHmarya does not disclose that Silber also writes for Kelsey's heresy laced Jewcy website.

http://www.jewcy.com/user/uzi_silber

Silber labels himself a "research analyst & painter". Sounds like resume padding of a Wall St wannabe to me as his name doesn't come up anywhere.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_uzi_silb_061222_observing_the_sabbat.htm

Here is Silber writing that although he attends an Orthodox shul every Shabbos, he and his "backbentch" friends alongside him are all "apostates" who don't believe as the others in shul do.

Guess who posted this crap on Silber's behalf?

Juda Engelmayer, who most likely is another pretender in the shul. The apple it seems doesn't fall far from Engelmayer's father, a Conservative "rabbi" and big shot at the Jewish Theological Cemetary.

"And?"

In other words the Mesopotamians most likely took rites from Judaism just like Christianity did.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/10/the-slave-in-yo.html

Here is Silber theorizing he descends from Asiatic Khazars while Shmarya differs, postulating he descends from non-Jewish slaves of early Ashkenazim.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.nysun.com/comments/6583

Silber writes here that he is the author of this wacko blog:

http://nyapikores.blogpsot.com/

[jewishwhistleblower]

see: http://blogs.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/philjacobs/
Written by Baltimore Jewish Times editor Phil Jacobs and posted on the Jewish Times website on 10/06/08 at 01:12 PM.

Are You Really Sorry?

A rabbi friend called me the other day to wish me a Happy New Year.
He then told me that he thought that I was being too critical of the Orthodox rabbis.
“They did sign that document,” he said, referring to the April 11, 2007 condemnation of child molestation.
I told him that since April 11, 2007, little or nothing has changed.
There are still children facing the dangers of life-changing acts of molestation. The use of drugs and alcohol seems to be on the rise, and the connection between molestation survivors and the need to abuse drugs is becoming more and more linked.
And here they are on the threshold of a new year, just saying words out of a Makzor. They are Millie Vanillie in black hats, just lip-synching their prayers, nothing more.
Why is that a rabbi can still live at our area yeshiva even though the college “leadership” knows that he is a concern? And they even know who his victims were. Happy New Year.
And why is that a young woman in Israel continues to speak publicly and urgently about the abuses of her father back here in Baltimore. Yet to discount her, they call her “crazy?” Who is crazy, the molester or the survivor?
Two women I know molested by a rabbi in this town are too afraid to use their names. This rabbi hires legal counsel for protection. Happy New Year.
Last year, we finally had a case come to trial involving a child molester. And all that Israel Shapiro could do to stay out of jail was to resort to an Alford plea. He was given five years of supervised probation. An Alford plea allows the defendant to circumvent a guilty plea, but accept the consequences of a guilty verdict. Happy New Year.
There’s an emerging group of women in town referred to as “buttoned down and shut tight.” They are frum women who dress modestly, were educated in girls’ only schools, but were molested. Some can’t even date men they are so frightened. Some resort to eating disorders to deal with their pain. Look around you, they’re here. Happy New Year.
At a conference recently in Brooklyn, two issues stuck in my head. One, hearing a state legislator, a frum man, call molestation within the frum community an “epidemic.” The other was hearing a formerly frum young man talk about how molestation is now a “rite of passage” in some yeshivas.
You know what I think?
And people here in this community are concerned about the shidduchim of the relatives of these men, the innocent family members who aren’t at fault.
They then turn the accusers into the reasons for their misery, not the perpetrators. They turn the reporters of this information into ones at risk. Rabbi Ben Zion Twersky was named to head an anti- molestation task force in Brooklyn. Soon people wouldn’t acknowledge his existence. His children felt their future shidduchim threatened.
So here’s the idea.
Why don’t these family members buy billboard signs or advertisements apologizing for the acts of their relatives? Wouldn’t it make for an even greater shidduch possibility if one knew that your family was publicly and absolutely sorry for their family member’s transgressions. Wouldn’t it take a sheer act of uncommon bravery to do such a thing?
Is there anyone brave enough in Baltimore’s Orthodox community who could stand up and apologize for all of this.
What about you Vaad Ha Rabbanim? Is the word “brave” in your lexicon of chumrahs?
I think not.
But I do know that on Thursday late afternoon when that Book of Life is getting ready to be sealed, you better be sorry.
And you better be genuine about your sorrow.
If not, even the brave won’t be able to help you.
So, yeah, I’m critical of the rabbis.
But next time don’t produce a letter if you don’t mean anything by it, or if it’s the work of the younger rabbis in town, not the real consensus.
Better yet, why doesn’t the Vaad rent a billboard apologizing and seeking forgiveness? Place it on Reisterstown Road in Pikesville so that we can all take a look.
That would beat a meaningless letter any day.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/food/openings/n_10349/

Here's a picture of Silber and his business partners who own some treif Manhattan restaurants.

[rebitzman]

++Here's a picture of Silber and his business partners who own some treif Manhattan restaurants.++

AND?

So what?

It's boggling to me that this thread is generating ANY discussion much less the character assassination of ALL parties involved that is going on.

[rebitzman]

I should say ATTEMPTED character assassination - since owning a treif restaurant is a function of business, not character.

[critical_minyan]

first of all I know uzi silber and like him. He is smart, funny and interesting.
i always see him at judah engelmayer's bialy store, whatever that means.
that piece is well meaning and interesting. the gentleman who points out that silber used to own a non-kosher restaurant, does not dispute the facts of Silber's well researched and factual article but instead tries to bring up pointless, useless and dated information.

[critical_minyan]

For next year's kapparot in Brooklyn we should dress up like ancient Babylonian priests and ask to take over the ceremony.
that would be fun street theater.

[Archie Bunker]

"factual article" ???

Prove that the pagans did not take Jewish ideas just as the Church did?

[Archie Bunker]

"So what?"

It is a violation of Torah laws to own a restaurant that produces milk & meat mixtures, etc, just like NY Magazine describes the menu.

Silber is a bum who should be told to find somewhere else to hang out on Saturday mornings.

[Rachel Batya]

If we can move on from the character assassination to the content of the article...

Whether we borrowed from the pagans or they borrowed from us (and probably some of both happened), this kind of information is fascinating to me and enriches my understanding of Judaism. It doesn't detract from it. It reminds me that Judaism has not always been the hermetically sealed culture that some of our more fanatical members seek to make it, but a living, breathing entity capable of co-existing with other cultures while retaining its deepest insights and values.

[critical_minyan]

bunker,
no offense. i agree with you usually on your posts, but on this you are a misinformed ignoramus. You should have another coffee because this morning you are posting without thinking.
perhaps someone is posting under your name.

silber's point in the article, which you seem not to process, is that at one point the Jewish religion, like the church, incorporated ideas from surrounding cultures.
This was done either purposefully to proselytize from people with other beliefs or because Judaism as we know it today is not so seperate from other religions as we would like to believe.
I actually heard one time that the Klausenberg Chasidim were called that because they believed in Santa Claus at an earlier time.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Charedi rape claim is denied
BY Dana Gloger
Jewish Chronical - October 10, 2008
http://archive.thejc.com/searchn/index.jsp
...
A Charedi man has pleaded not guilty to raping a 12-year-old boy in a synagogue lavatory.

Moshe Reichman, 24, from Golders Green, North-West London, appeared at Snaresbrook Crown Court on Monday and will face trial in January 2009, accused of four offences.

He has been charged with raping a child under the age of 13, sexual activity with a child, and two charges of causing or inciting a child to engage in sexual activity. The charges all relate to one incident alleged to have taken place between 2004 and 2005. Mr Reichman denies all four charges. The victim cannot be named because of his age.

Mr Reichman's barrister, Gary Grant, persuaded Judge David Radford to change his bail conditions which prohibited him from entering any synagogue. Judge Radford agreed that he can now attend the Biala Synagogue in Clapton as long as he is with one of eight chaperones, all rabbis and members of the Charedi community.

[critical_minyan]

Jewish whistle blower,
miami boys choir and Charedi pre-pubescent boy bands is the source of all the child molesting in yeshivas and summer camps
We know from Rabbinic sources that singing voices can incite lust in mens hearts. That is why our Holy Gedolim banned listening to women singing and thus the prohibition against Kol Isha.
Ultra-orthodox Judaism will never seriously shut down child molesting in the Yeshivas until they ban these sweet sounding yet very harmful niginunim.
Reichman should use the "Miami Boys Choir defense' to try and get a light sentence from the judge.
I think its time for you to attack the root of the ultra-orthodox child abuse problem instead of attacking the symptoms.

[Sender]

there are many of us who were born into these ultra observant families and now 40 years down the line we are "trapped in a cult" with no way out

[Archie Bunker]

There is something very wrong in incorporating ideas from pagan culture. There are several safeguards in Judaism to protect against just that.

Those rabbis who believe that Kapparos with chickens is pagan in origin banned the practice for that reason.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.amarillo.com/stories/101208/bus_biz11.shtml

[Over Where]

Prove that the pagans did not take Jewish ideas just as the Church did?

Why does Judaism reckon months and holidays according to the *Babylonian* method and not the Jewish method that is described in the Tanach? Why does Judaism use Babylonian names for the months? Perhaps you are right, and Judaism had some influence on Babylonian religion. However, those two things seems to indicate evidence for Babylonian influence on Judaism.

As for the Church, you cannot compare the Church with Babylonian religion in this sense. The Church wanted to portray itself as the descendant of and successor to Judaism - to both legitimize itself and denigrate Judaism. Thus, it needed to create ties and similarities to make its claim. That's one reason it added the Tanach into its own scriptures. It was done conciously and for a purposes. The Babylonians had no need to make their religion seem legitimate to anyone, let alone to have to do it via incorporating Jewish elements.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.bostonchabad.com]

B"H
The Rambam says something very similar in Guide for the Perplexed.
For example:

"But the custom which was in those days general among men, and the general mode of worship in which the Israelites were brought up consisted in sacrificing animals... It was in accordance with the wisdom and plan of God...that God did not command us to give up and to discontinue all these manners of service. For to obey such a commandment would have been contrary to the nature of man, who generally cleaves to that to which he is used; it would in those days have made the same impression as a prophet would make at present [the 12th Century] if he called us to the service of God and told us in His name, that we should not pray to God nor fast, nor seek His help in time of trouble; that we should serve Him in thought, and not by any action." (Book III, Chapter 32. Translated by M. Friedlander, 1904, The Guide for the Perplexed, Dover Publications, 1956 edition.)

critacal_minyan writes he sees Silber often at Engelmeyer's bialy joint. I have said this before, but I cannot get over the fact that that wanker owns Kossar's. Nothing is fucking sacred in this world. As for the dangers of pagan culture, well what about it? Is there no room for a bit of incorporation here? There's alot to be said for the odd pagan sojourn now and then.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Can any one confirm that this is the case referred to by the Chaptzem Blob (CHAPTZEM EXCLUSIVE - Heimishe child molester) and can anyone provide additional details?

http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcrim_attorney/AttorneySearchCase#search_result

Docket# 07860-2007
VEGH, MARTIN

[zach]

I actually heard one time that the Klausenberg Chasidim were called that because they believed in Santa Claus at an earlier time.

Very funny (but clearly untrue as Kloizenberg is the yiddish pronunciation for the town in Romania from which R. Yehuda Halberstam's dynasty originated.)

[Ahavah]

Of course you will not agree with this statement, but I will make it anyway.

Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so when Adam ate the fruit, he learned Torah, since that would, necessarily, be included in all that is good and evil. He would then has passed this knowledge down to his numerous descendants - and of course distortions crept in over the generations. Clearly the father-to-son thing wasn't working out.

So, God gave Moses the Torah written on stone and paper, so they couldn't screw it up, but they managed to do so anyway by adding their "oral Torah" to it - continuing the failed "father-to-son" model that had caused God to write down the Torah as a contract in the first place. They have no intention of giving up their self-appointed power and authority, which they can give themselves only by means of their additions to the Torah.

Later still, God will, as Jeremiah tells us, give up the paper and stone and write it on our hearts and minds during the Messianic Kingdom - presumably where it can't be distorted or tampered with at all.

The point is, it's not surprising then that other ancient cultures had similar knowledge, since they, too, are descended from Adam, who knew everything because he ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

[Dave]

Rachel, I agree with you.
I don't care if we copied from the pagans or they copied from us.
Anyway, we purged the non-monotheistic elements of the surrounding culture from our religion, so I don't see what the problem is.

[Dave]

Ahavah, I agree to an extent with what you say- that's the strength of the Karaite Jewish movement, and that's why they are still around today, although tiny (30,000) in number- their point, let's just back to the Tanach, and stick to the Tanach. However, the funny thing is that if you look at the Karaite websites, they also have their own chumrot/ humrot. So, nobody's perfect. I think the ideal would be an integrated form of Rabbinic and Karaite Judaism. That's my dream.

[Archie Bunker]

"The Church wanted to portray itself as the descendant of and successor to Judaism"

True, as is the case with Islam.

HOWEVER ... there are many other religions who have incorporated Jewish ideas. There was a documentary made on various African & Asian tribes that fit this description.

And while not uniquely Jewish, there are also way too many cultures that have stolen the concept of Noah's ark exclusively as their own.

It boils down to taking the ideas from the Torah.

We must be doing something right as imitation is the best form of flattery.

[Archie Bunker]

Re Martin (Burich Mordche) Vegh

UOJ has some info including that he is a mincha/maariv gabbay at Bobov.

[Archie Bunker]

Ahavah, you can speak for yourself and the Reform / Conservative movements, the only "failed" ones who believe that nonsense.

Without the Oral Torah, there is nothing to distinguish you from the Christians.

It's also amazing that most people who make these bold assertions know little or nothing of the Oral Torah that they belittle.

[R]

I agree with Dave on the mixture of both types of judaism mixing, but the problem is they cannot mix.
Today there is an un-healthy obsession with halacha as it if came from sinai.
I think if the orthodox Jews were less obsessed with halacha and took more care about what actually was in the torah, then you might have a better balance.

[Archie Bunker]

Just fyi, the Karaites themselves probably put out that figure of 30,000. Their real population is probably closer to 18,000.

Those frauds have converted to other religions over time when it suited them.

Halachically speaking they are either non-Jews or mamzerim. Pick your poison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraya_Shapshal

For the record, they are also Nazi collaborators, but Shmarya will no doubt figure out a way to whitewash them a la Kasztner.

[Archie Bunker]

"un-healthy obsession with halacha as it if came from sinai"

Incredible how you heretics and ignoramouses talk as if there's no such thing as the 13 articles of the Jewish faith that require a belief in just that.

Your unhealthy counter-obsession is more like it.

[Archie Bunker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Firkovich

The Karaites themselves argue that they are not Judean in descent.

[Archie Bunker]

The Reich Agency for the Investigation of Families determined that from the standpoint of German law, the Karaites were not to be considered Jews.

Many Karaims joined German auxiliary units such as the Tatar Legion, Ostturkische Waffenverband, an SS unit that included Crimean Tatars and other Turkic peoples. According to a letter dated September 27, 1944, penned by Chancellor Gerhard Klopfer, an estimated 500-600 Crimean Karaims were fighting in the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, and Tatar Legion.

Jacob Eilbert, a survivor of the Lutsk Ghetto, testified to the Karaite anti-Jewish activity. He recounted that the Karaites would enter the ghetto and beat up women and children. On other occasions they would extort huge sums of money from the Lutsk Judenrat. Eilbert also testified to the fact that the Karaites assisted the Germans and Ukrainians in the liquidation of the Lutsk Ghetto in August 1942.

[rebitzman]

++It is a violation of Torah laws to own a restaurant that produces milk & meat mixtures, etc, just like NY Magazine describes the menu.++

Archie - utter poo.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Missed this on Rabbi Morris Esformes:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/November/06_civ_803.html

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 2006
WWW.USDOJ.GOVCIV
(202) 514-2007
TDD (202) 514-1888

Miami Hospital Pays $15.4 Million to Resolve Fraud Case
for Kickbacks & Medically Unnecessary Treatments
WASHINGTON – Larkin Community Hospital in Miami and its current and former owners, Dr. Jack Michel, Dr. James Desnick, Morris Esformes and Philip Esformes, have paid $15.4 million to settle federal and Florida civil health care fraud claims against them, the Justice Department announced today. Additionally, 34 related companies owned by the Esformes that were used to operate nine assisted living facilities are part of the settlement along with Claudia Pace, an employee of one of the Esformes-owned companies; and Frank Palacios, a long-time employee of the hospital.

The settlement resolves the civil case entitled United States v. Jack Jacobo Michel, M.D., et al., which the government filed in 2004, alleging violations of the False Claims Act. The state of Florida joined the suit later that year.

The government alleged that in 1997, Larkin, then owned by Desnick, paid kickbacks to physicians in return for patient admissions. The United States contended that the primary recipient of the kickbacks was Jack Michel, who was paid for patient admissions to Larkin by himself and his brother, Dr. George Michel. Jack Michel purchased Larkin in 1998. In 2000, Desnick was a party to a $14 million settlement with the United States for a similar kickback scheme from 1992 to 2000 at another facility he owned, Doctors Hospital of Hyde Park in Chicago.

The United States also alleged in the Michel suit that from 1998 to 1999, Jack Michel, George Michel, Morris Esformes, Philip Esformes, Frank Palacios and Claudia Pace conspired to admit patients to Larkin for medically unnecessary treatment. The government asserted that some of these patients came from assisted living facilities owned and operated by Jack Michel, Morris Esformes and Philip Esformes.

“The Department of Justice is committed to vigorously litigating cases about conduct that undermines the integrity of the Medicare and Medicaid programs,” said Peter D. Keisler, Assistant Attorney General for the Department’s Civil Division. “We will not tolerate health care providers who pay kickbacks or perform medically unnecessary treatments on elderly beneficiaries in order to generate Medicare and Medicaid payments.”

The case was investigated by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Inspector General; the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and the Florida Medicaid Fraud Control Unit. The case was handled by the Justice Department’s Civil Division, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Florida in Miami and the Office of the Attorney General of the state of Florida.

###

06-803

Also see:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041205202447/http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/9060719.htm

[Archie Bunker]

Ok, there was an Uziel Silber, also known as Jason Silber who worked as a Marine / ports analyst for MRC in Stamford, CT.

It seems his "rabbi" is David Bateman who attended Skokie & YU and claims to be "Orthodox" but is anything but and has led some Conservative temples.

[Archie Bunker]

"utter poo"

I thought you were eating crow, but if poo is your preference, then so be it.

[Archie Bunker]

Still, the last record I find of Silber working as an "analyst" is 14 years ago.

http://www.thenewsmarket.com/info/contactus/

He seems to be currently working for this company.

[rebitzman]

++I thought you were eating crow, but if poo is your preference, then so be it.++

If YOU weren't talking out your bung - you'd have probably given a Torah citation.

You didn't - because there is none.

[Dave]

Look, I don't care if I sound like an apologist for the Karaites. Yes, individual Karaites were collaborators. So were individual rabbinic Jews. Somewhere in the whole situation, we seem to have forgotten, that
a) the Karaites DO believe in Torah mi'Sinai- something that most Conservatives and almost Reform do not.
b) they are a traditional dissident movement, as a opposed to non-traditional dissident movements

Also if you check out all the literature,
ALL traditional Jewish groups have A FORM of Halacha, whatever they call it- whether the group is the Samaritans, the Karaites, or Orthodox Rabbinic Jews.
The difference is that Orthodox Rabbinic Jews have tried to fuse the Oral Law to the Written Law.
This was very useful politically and served our people well for centuries, but it has ultimately led to the conclusion that some people think the Oral Law is more important than the Tanach. That is a mistake.
Archie, as for your allegation that the Oral Law is the only difference between Judaism and Christianity, I strongly disagree.
The difference between Judaism and Christianity is that we Jews, all of us, believe that G-d is a Unity, and is Unknowable and All Powerful, whereas Christians believe in a god that came to earth as a human.
That is the irreconcilable difference.
That puts all Jews (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Haredi, and Karaite)and Samaritan Israelites on side,
and the Christians on the other.
It is the unbridgeable theological gulf.

[steve]

I have only one thing to say on the subject: Good Yom Tov to one and all!

[Used2BXian]

Without the Oral Torah, there is nothing to distinguish you from the Christians.

Aside from the Reform and Conservatives not believing in the 27 books called the "New Testament" and that HaShem came to earth in the form of a "Holy Spirit" and impregnated a poor virgin girl who then gave birth to a god-man, who himself was part of a triune god, who was then killed as a substitutionary sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of all mankind and who rose from the dead three days later and ascended into heaven to rule at the right hand of the father portion of the divine trinity . . . and that belief in, and personal acceptance, of this story is obligatory upon all humanity and that rejection of belief in this story will result in one's eternal soul being condemned forever after in the realm of Hell, in a specific place called the Lake of Fire where everlasting torment awaits. And this god man will one day take all believers up into the sky - both physically and spiritually, after which the earth will see great torments lasting seven years, during which time Satan and his operative The Beast will rule the world until the god-man comes back and slaughters their armies in the Valley of Meggido and the god-man purges the earth and transforms it into a paradise for the believers who will live their for 1000 years in peace, until the final day of judgment when Satan is bound in chains and cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity himself.

Yes, without the Oral Torah, Conservative and Reform Judaism have nothing different from Christianity.

[rebitzman]

++Yes, without the Oral Torah, Conservative and Reform Judaism have nothing different from Christianity.++

Is someone here of the silly opinion that CJ does not hold Oral Torah in the same light as does OJ?

Interesting.

[Archie Bunker]

Most Conservative Jews (including Rebitz) are not aware that their own movement believes that the Oral Torah was transmitted by Moshe Rabbeinu alone - and not from G-d, which is heretical.