BREAKING! PETA VIDEO SHOWS AGRIPROCESSORS WORKER HACKING AT COWS' THROATS WITH A KNIFE SECONDS AFTER SHECHITA CUT

Other Viewing Options

In 2004, after these horrific violations of Humane Slaughter law were exposed by PETA, the OU promised…

…to stop what it called the "procedure."

In 2007, PETA caught Agriprocessors doing the same procedure in its Nebraska plant, using a smaller meat hook this time and with no trachea excision. Under USDA pressure, Agriprocessors promised to stop doing it. The OU parsed words and tried to claim the meat hook used wasn't really a meat hook.

Now, PETA has caught Agriprocessors again, and the abuse this time is horrific, nearly as bad as…

…2004.

What you see above is a non-Jewish worker hacking at the open throat wound of cattle 5 seconds after the shechita cut has been made.

Temple Grandin is calling for 24/6 supervision through Internet video so we can all see what Agriprocessors is doing, and PETA has a petition urging that.

We need another petition and we need it now.

The OU has consistently lied. The OU's "CEO of Kashrus" Rabbi Menachem Genack must be fired immediately, along with Rabbi Seth Mandel, its head of shechita, and Rabbi Moshe Elephant who went to postville and participated in the whitewash perpetrated by Rabbi Pesach Lerner and Rabbi David Eliezrie.

As for Rabbi Lerner, his complete lack of credibility should now be clear to all. The National Council of Young Israel should take the proper and necessary actions to restore confidence in its leadership. There is a door. Rabbi Lerner should be forced to use it.

Chabad's sometime spokesperson Rabbi David Eliezrie has a long history of lies. Chabad likes those lies and will do nothing to sanction him for them.

But you can.

If you currently pray at a Chabad House, stay away this Shabbat and tell your rabbi why. If you can do it, turn this Shabbat into forever. And if you donate to Chabad, stop immediately. You may like your local rabbi. But he works for the same people who refuse to stop Eliezrie. Make them pay.

As for the Bush USDA, it's corrupt. What happens on the video is a clear violation of Humane Slaughter law. This is a repeat violation, the third exposed in four years.

Congress should hold hearings on the the USDA, its repeated failures, and its clear desire to protect big agribusiness from penalty.

Let the stain of the USDA's ineptitude and corruption land where it should – on the legacy man who presided over it all, Geroge W. Bush.

Comments

[jewishwhistleblower]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3592551,00.html
(excerpt)
...
Military rabbi suspected of raping daughter

Major arrested after daughter files complaint. Man denies claims, police suspect he also assaulted one of his sons

Eli Senyor Published: 09.05.08, 13:47 / Israel News

A military rabbi, holding the rank of major, has been arrested under suspicion of raping and molesting his daughter for the last eight years, since she was 15. In addition, police suspect that the man may have assaulted another one of his children and plan to ask the court to extend his remand on Friday.
...

[JewishCynic]

I don't have much knowledge of the details of shchita so the following questions are for real:

I was under the impression that the animal had to die from the shchita (don't they have to check to see the blood vessels were properly severed?).
Did the second worker make his cuts to complete the kill? (is that a kashrus issue?)

I would guess that the shchita cut stops blood flow to the animal's brain. So the animal should quickly loose consiousness and die. Once unconsious the animal could not feel pain. So is the issue the lack of time between the shchita and the second cut?

Thanks for any illumination.

[Shmarya]

I was under the impression that the animal had to die from the shchita (don't they have to check to see the blood vessels were properly severed?).

Yes and yes. The schochet does a quick check using his hand.

Did the second worker make his cuts to complete the kill? (is that a kashrus issue?)

Upside down slaughter has a slower, less complete bleed out than standing slaughter. That – and the animal getting flipped over and dumped onto a concrete floor after shechita causes extra bruising and what is called blood splash. This makes the meat less valuable on the non-kosher market.

The worker makes the cuts to get better bleed out.

Is it a kshrus issue? The rabbis say it is not.

is the issue the lack of time between the shchita and the second cut?

Yes.

[Carol-Ann]

At the FSIS website I wrote to ask why second cuts are allowed. Their response was that after the first cut the animal's musculature can be pulled into the arteries which has the effect of closing them. The second cuts are done to increase blood flow.

Arterial occlusion in cattle and calves and the need for additional cuts is not mentioned in literature praising shechita.

I echo the call for new congressional hearings on the USDA and proper enforcement of the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act.

[sage]

+++ We need another petition and we need it now.

The OU has consistently lied. The OU's "CEO of Kashrus" Rabbi Menachem Genack must be fired immediately, along with Rabbi Seth Mandel, its head of shechita, and Rabbi Moshe Elephant who went to postville and participated in the whitewash perpetrated by Rabbi Pesach Lerner and Rabbi David Eliezrie. +++

OK, Shmarya, why don't you start this petition modeled after the one Jason started some time ago and, at last check, had only 74 signatures.

Maybe Jason might be willing to help you.

I'll be among the first to sign on.

[Anonymous]

Okay, I'm a Rov.

Someone tell me why these animals aren't a nevila.

Someone tell me why the OU isn't bolting out of their chairs and pulling the hashgacha.

Someone tell my why...

and I hope the answer isn't money.

Nice job PETA. You nailed the bastards.

[Snipe-Fu]

Shmarya,

Thank you for keeping us so well informed about all the abuse going on in the "kosher" world. I stopped buying agri producta in my home and am now being turned off to most other mass produced kosher meats.

I ask you however, if you can, please find us something that is ethical and kosher. I like to eat meat. I've tried to scour the web for some grass fed free range type meats and chickens that I could purchase in Southern California (heck I'd be willing to have it shipped from elsewhere) but I came up short.

Have you done any looking into what types of truly kosher and ethical meats and poultry are available? This would be a great service to many of us.

Thanks.

[Catherine]

WHat we need is a leader!
ITs time to shut them down!

[Jason]

Snipe:

Check out:

1. Mitzvah Meat: http://groups.google.com/group/mitzvahmeat?hl=en

2. Kosher Conscience: www.KosherConscience.com

I have no relationship with these companies, but also can't really vouch for them. But I have come across them recently and they are at least saying all the right things. I am especially impressed with Mitzvah Meat as they seem to follow the philosophy of Joel Salatin as described in The Omnivore's Dilemma.

If anyone lives in Northern NJ and wants to split an order on Mitzvah Meat, please let me know. You can email me at ethical.kosher@gmail.com (I hope you understand why I don't want to publish my personal email on this blog -- too many kooks).

[sage]

+++ Okay, I'm a Rov.

Someone tell me why these animals aren't a nevila.

Someone tell me why the OU isn't bolting out of their chairs and pulling the hashgacha.

Someone tell my why...

and I hope the answer isn't money.

Nice job PETA. You nailed the bastards.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 05, 2008 at 12:35 PM +++

I've got some really bad news.

The OU is in the Agri certification loop strictly for the fees it collects.

It couldn't care less what goes on inside Agri and has no mashgichim on site, to boot.

Years ago, Rabbi Seth Mandel, head of OU Kashrut had severe issues with the Kashrut standards at Agri and lobbied his superiors in the OU to pull its hashgacha but was told, in no uncertain terms to forget it, keep promoting the company line, or be fired. The good rabbi did as he was told.

[Jason]

Snipe:

Check out:

1. Mitzvah Meat: http://tinyurl.com/6n9bmn

2. Kosher Conscience: www.KosherConscience.com

I have no relationship with these companies, but also can't really vouch for them. But I have come across them recently and they are at least saying all the right things. I am especially impressed with Mitzvah Meat as they seem to follow the philosophy of Joel Salatin as described in The Omnivore's Dilemma.

If anyone lives in Northern NJ and wants to split an order on Mitzvah Meat, please let me know. You can email me at ethical.kosher@gmail.com (I hope you understand why I don't want to publish my personal email on this blog -- too many kooks).

[Sara]

Sage,

Can you provide any proof that what say about Rabbi Seth Mandel, is true?

[Rachel Batya]

Jason, I'm bringing in your question from the other PETA thread, regarding why chickens and other animals that would not live a year are not considered treif:

--I revise my question now to include meat chickens as well -- why aren't they and factory farmed cattle considered treif? Just because that would leave virtually no mass produced meat for the kosher consumer is not really an acceptable answer, is it?--

No, it's not an acceptable answer at all. I don't know whether there is another one, or whether there is some exception for meat birds, which last a maximum of 6 months. It's possible that halacha treats all chickens alike; since laying hens can last for years, perhaps halacha assumes that the ones bred for meat can too. But I'm just guessing.

I don't know how there could possibly be an exception for cows, which are fed a diet that would kill them inside of a year if nature took its course.

If anyone has an answer, let us know.

[steve]

Lubinsky is like an empty cannister that rattles:

Dear Julia:

I was terribly disappointed in your piece this morning that included a quote from me, which makes me wonder whether the sense of fairness you tried to display in your previous piece was somehow missing here.

For starters, there are several inaccuracies: You write: “Under the regulations, a “second cut” in an animal’s throat can be made only in exceptional cases by rabbis or under their supervision. These cuts are sometimes made to speed blood flow from the animals.” There is nothing in the regulations that mentions exceptional cases and in fact if you had read the regulations, you would see a blanket permission for the second cut.

Here are the Direct quotes from the regulations on the subject of a second cut:
Inspection program personnel are to verify that after the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding, no dressing procedure (e.g., head skinning, leg removal, ear removal, horn removal, opening hide patterns), is performed until the animal is insensible.

Inspection program personnel are not to interfere in any manner with the preparation of the animal for ritual slaughter, including the positioning of the animal, or the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding.

Secondly: Whoever told you that Agriprocessors agreed to suspend the second cut when it was never demanded of them and the procedure continues?

Third: You conveniently omitted my quote that the second cut in fact only hastens the elimination of any pain or suffering, if there is any?

Finally, this story would have been more appropriate to point out that PETA’s activities were illegal and that the USDA used the strong term that Agriprocessors is “in full compliance.” Why not tell the truth?

Menachem Lubinsky
President & CEO, LUBICOM Marketing Consulting, which represents Agriprocessors and
Editor-in-Chief, Kosher Today

[Jason]

Thanks Rachel.

[Rachel Batya]

Here is a source for organic kosher meat:

http://www.wiseorganicpastures.com/catalog/

I can't vouch personally for meat from this company, but if it's organic, the animals have to be treated humanely from birth to death.

[steve]

Another squeaking cannister:

Letters to the Editor
The New York Times
229 West 43rd Street
New York, NY 10036

To the Editor:

Two comments on your news story “Kosher Plant is Accused of Inhumane Slaughter”:

First, your reporter is right that Jewish ritual slaughter is “allowed under exemptions in federal animal cruelty laws,” but only half right. In enacting the humane slaughter law, Congress made an explicit affirmative finding that the Jewish method of ritual slaughter is humane. (7 U.S.C. §1902(b).)

Second, given the headline of the news story, and the content of the first few paragraphs – which describe the claim by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) that a videotape one of its representatives surreptitiously took of animal slaughter procedures at the AgriProcessors plant in Postville, Iowa showed inhumane practices – I was surprised (pleasantly so) to discover in the fifth paragraph of the story that Department of Agriculture officials had “determined the violations were ‘not egregious’,” and that “the plant was currently in full compliance with humane slaughter regulations.”

Shouldn’t the headline have been “USDA Rejects Claim of Inhumane Slaughter at Kosher Plant”? (LINK to orgonal story on YWN)

Sincerely,

David Zwiebel
Executive Vice President
for Government and Public Affairs
Agudath Israel of America

[anonymous]

2 interesting posts on the RCA's own blog @ http://seforim.traditiononline.org/

1) a refutation of Nat Lewin's pilpulic criticism of Rabbi Herzfeld's anecdote about Rabbi Yisrael Salanter. Marc Shapiro found a source in tenuat ha-Mussar, vol. 1, p. 358.

2) a letter from Rabbi Genack giving a Hashgacha on a toilet bowl cleanser.
http://bp1.blogger.com/_Tw42_5chsqg/R_z6_sPJTrI/AAAAAAAAAWM/m4Sr3zWFe2M/s1600-h/Toilet+bowl+cleaner+hechsher.jpg

[steve]

Look for some more Rubashkin shills over the weekend to enlighten us with their wisdom.

[Carol-Ann]

At least we're getting to the truth of shechita which is a single throat cut does not always do the trick and SECOND CUTS are made to facilitate bleed-out.

Mr. Lubinsky states second cuts "hastens the elimination of pain or sufferering". Which means an animal must ENDURE more pain and suffering.

More pain and suffering to eliminate pain and suffering...yeah, that's the ticket.

In conventional slaughter, any cut to a conscious animal is considered an egregious violation of the Humane Slaughter Act.

[formely frum]

I can't vouch personally for meat from this company, but if it's organic, the animals have to be treated humanely from birth to death.

Posted by: Rachel Batya

I am not sure that is so, organic just means no chemicals, pesticides and or antibiotics. As far as I know it has nothing to do how humanly the animals where raised or killed.

[Carol-Ann]

When Congress passed the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act in 1958, no testimony was given about second cuts in religious slaughter. The language of the law reflects that understanding: the ritual throat cut defined as humane is a single incision.

A congressional hearing should be held to explain why the original FSIS directive issued in 2003 forbidding additional cuts in religious slaughter was revised to allow them.

I wrote to FSIS for an answer; instead, I was referred to the Office of Congressional Affairs.

[Shmarya]

Here is a source for organic kosher meat:

http://www.wiseorganicpastures.com/catalog/

They don't seem to treat their employees very well:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/09/the-produces-of.html

[Rachel Batya]

--I am not sure that is so, organic just means no chemicals, pesticides and or antibiotics. As far as I know it has nothing to do how humanly the animals where raised or killed.--

Consider the following:

From the Guidelines for Certification of Organic Meat, Vermont Organic Farmers (VOF)
Northeast Organic Farming Association
of Vermont (NOFA-VT):

Livestock Living Conditions (205.239)

The producer of an organic livestock operation must establish and maintain livestock living conditions that accommodate the health and natural behavior of animals including:

--Daily access to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise areas, fresh air, and direct sunlight.

--Access to pasture for ruminants: All animals over 6 months must be on pasture during the grazing season.

--Appropriate clean, dry bedding. If the bedding is typically consumed by the animal species, it must comply with
the feed requirements and be certified organic.

--Shelter designed to allow for natural maintenance, comfort behaviors and opportunity for exercise while also
allowing for good ventilation and air circulation.

--Housing must provide daily outdoor access during the non-grazing season. The VOF Review Committee has determined that cows 6 months of age and older should have daily turnout, even if only an hour a day during the winter months.

The animals must be slaughtered humanely in accordance with the same law that applies to every other producer. Organic certification requires meticulous recordkeeping at each step of the process.

[Rachel Batya]

http://www.wiseorganicpastures.com/catalog/

--They don't seem to treat their employees very well--

I think this bears a closer look. Since they have only 10 employees, the lack of a union is not altogether surprising. I'm all for unions, but just because a place isn't unionized doesn't mean it treats its employees badly.

On the issue of health care--it's hugely expensive, and perhaps the company, being a small business, could not offer kosher organic meat (that's two certifications, not one) and offer health care at the same time.

I'm not an apologist for these kinds of things when we're talking about a huge business that's raking in millions of dollars, but given the company's size, the expense of two certifications, and its rather specialized market, I'd take a second look. I don't think you can make a judgment about their treatment of employees based on a chart.

[Shmarya]

I wrote to FSIS for an answer; instead, I was referred to the Office of Congressional Affairs.

See here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/09/breaking-menach.html

--Thanks Rachel.--

No problem, Jason. Good shabbos!

[sage]

+++ Sage,

Can you provide any proof that what say about Rabbi Seth Mandel, is true?

Posted by: Sara | September 05, 2008 at 02:05 PM +++

I got this from a trusted confidential source who has emails from Rabbi Mandel stating the truth of what I wrote in my post.

Others on FM have stated the same from their souces.

Hope this helps and shows how utterly corrupt the OU has become.

[Shmarya]

On the issue of health care--it's hugely expensive, and perhaps the company, being a small business, could not offer kosher organic meat (that's two certifications, not one) and offer health care at the same time.

Sure. I get it. So they cheat their workers so you can have organic beef?

Please.

[Jason]

Shmarya, in all fairness (and I'm no shill for Wise, although I do (did?) love their chicken), since we don't know their starting pay, we do not know if in lieu of healthcare they have a large paycheck. I agree with Rachel on the union issue given the size of their shop and would like to know more about (a) their starting pay and (b) the nature of their workforce before damning them.

And for all you AgriProcessor apologists, this is a different situation and they DO deserve the benefit of the doubt now because there have been no allegations against this company as far as I am aware. We are proactively trying to determine the ethics of their business.

[Jason]

I propose a simple solution though. First thing Monday I will call Wise and ask them. Anyone have any questions they want answered, other than starting pay and health benefits?

[Shmarya]

Raises based on a schedule? More for better performance? Paid sick leave? Maternity leave?

Jason,

I would love to know who performs the shecitah and how it's done in detail preferably (whether they check for chalak or not, second cuts and so on.) What kind of kosher supervision their facility has in general would also be good to know.

[Jason]

Their website has the supervision info:

The chickens are fed an all organic grain diet that are free of antibiotics, that can ultimately be passed to the consumer.

When the chickens have reached the ideal weight or size, they are transported to David Elliot Poultry Farm in Scranton, PA where the chickens are slaughtered in a strictly kosher setting.

David Elliot Poultry is a U.S. D.A. inspected plant under the strict supervision of the Beth Din Tzedek of Crown Heights and the Union of Orthodox Rabbis.and is also certified organic by QAI (Quality Assurance International). From the processing plant, the chickens are distributed through Wise's headquarters in Brooklyn. Wise also distributes certified organic turkey, which are raised at the Greenwood Farm in Lancaster County, PA and then transported to David Elliot Poultry.

Source: http://www.wisekosher.com/info.asp

[rebitzman]

++Here is a source for organic kosher meat:++

Great - just what I need - $20 chickens (a LOT more if I have it shipped).

Good Shabbes

[Sam]

Shmarya,

Is there any specific reason that you curiously withold posting the Agudath Israel response to the NY Times article. Is it because you have yet to find some criticism to expose???

[Al]

++ Great - just what I need - $20 chickens ++

Hey think of it like an esrog, the more you pay, the bigger the mitzvah !

[Shmarya]

Is there any specific reason that you curiously withold posting the Agudath Israel response to the NY Times article. Is it because you have yet to find some criticism to expose??

No. I can't print every asinine thing one of your rabbis writes.

Having a Humane Slaughter violation that is "not egregious" doesn't make it no a violation.

Past that, if you note my more recent post, you'll see highly detailed information about Zwiebel's claims.

[Rachel Batya]

--Sure. I get it. So they cheat their workers so you can have organic beef?--

Actually, I don't eat beef, and that wasn't my point. My point was that these people are providing something long overdue in the kosher world--meat that comes from humanely treated animals. To some of us, this is critically important. Aurora gets high marks because it’s unionized and provides health insurance? What about the animals that make the business, the food, the unionization, and the health insurance possible? Where do they rate on the chart?

In any case, it's unfair to compare an organic producer that employs 10 people to a factory farming business that employs many more. Organic farming is much more expensive than factory farming. It's extremely labor intensive. Because humane treatment of the animals is required, the facility cannot be run purely for efficiency's sake. The feed is much more expensive, and it is very costly to get the land certified and to keep that certification in place. Therefore, the final product is more expensive than the non-organic product, and this, along with the fact that most people couldn't care less about how the animals are raised, cuts down their market share and their profit margin considerably. I think it's unreasonable to expect an organic producer employing 10 people to offer the same wages and benefits as a huge agribusiness.

I’ve lived in a rural community for a number of years, I’ve worked my own farm, and I know a number of farmers who are barely getting by. They can’t even afford health insurance for themselves, and they are constantly in debt. They cannot afford to pay more than minimum wage. And yet, everyone involved would much prefer to see these farmers making good use of the land, treating the animals well, bringing a healthy product to market, and supporting the local economy than see an agribusiness come into town and swallow everything up.

It’s not a perfect world, and we’re all making choices here. Personally, I’d hate to see a small organic producer lose business to a large factory farm. The benefits the organic producers provide to animals, to human beings, and to the earth are incalculable.

[sage]

Hi Rachel,

Excellent post!!!

I feel, that it is finally starting to be appreciated, that massive industrial production of Kosher animal foods and True Kashut are incompatible and that 21st Century Animal Foods Kashrut must blot out what has developed over the past 100 years or so, and return to the way animals were raised and slaughtered for about 3,300 years previously.

As a vegan, I have no personal dog in this fight, but my advocacy is for meat eating Jews to have truly humane and sustainable food options.

[rebitzman]

++Organic farming is much more expensive than factory farming. ++

Really?

Last year I shechted an organically raised steer - after selling off the back half, the entire cost of the front half (dressed and wrapped - I DID have to salt it myself) was about $1.05 a pound. Had I used a NON-organically raised cow (same farmer - 2 separate plots of land - 2 separate herds), the cost would have been.....

..........about a $1.05 a pound.

[rebitzman]

Rachael - the price was essentially the same because even though the organically raised animal took a LOT longer to get to full size - the non-organically raised animals cost a LOT more to feed.

[Shmarya]

What about the animals that make the business, the food, the unionization, and the health insurance possible? Where do they rate on the chart?

Let's see if I understand you.

All things being equal, you think it is a fair, valid choice to buy organic meat from a company that mistreats its human workforce over meat from a company that pays its workers well and is kind to them, but uses factory farm raised beef.

Here's what I think.

All things being equal, you shouldn't buy either of them. If you have to buy one (for medical reasons, say), buy the one that treats humans well.

If, however, you can find an organic producer that pays its workers well and treats them well – buy that.

In any case, it's unfair to compare an organic producer that employs 10 people to a factory farming business that employs many more.

Really? Why?

Companies get a free pass from you if they produce organic beef?

If Wise is paying $12 a hour to start, has regular pay increases, paid sick leave and paid vacation, but isn't unionized – fine.

But Wise will not disclose what workers make and what benefits it pays. It is not unionized. And it is, I think, owned by Chabadniks who have been very supportive of the Rubashkins.

[sarcasm] But, by all means, rush out to buy more of Wise's products. They're organic, after all, and that makes up for all the rest – now doesn't it? [/end sarcasm]

[rebitzman]

++All things being equal, you think it is a fair, valid choice to buy organic meat from a company that mistreats its human workforce over meat from a company that pays its workers well and is kind to them, but uses factory farm raised beef.++

I think she is saying that it is a fair, valid choice to buy organic meat from a company that mistreats its human workforce and NOT a fair valid choice to buy NON-organic meat from a company that mistreats its human workforce.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

i was under the impression that the ou had told agriprocessors that they had to stop the practice of turning the animal upside down

we have been decieved

[Shmarya]

i was under the impression that the ou had told agriprocessors that they had to stop the practice of turning the animal upside down

No. The OU never said that. It said it was stopping the "procedure," throat ripping with a meat hook and the idea of a second cut, which reasonable people took to mean stopping the second cut.

This is where we were deceived.

The OU first switched to a smaller meat hook, known as a "node" or "boning" hook, and then claimed this hook wasn't a meat hook.

Now Agriprocessors uses a regular carving knife and hacks away.

It's just more of Menachem Genack's abusive parsing of language and the lies that have become OU standard operating procedure.

[rebitzman]

++i was under the impression that the ou had told agriprocessors that they had to stop the practice of turning the animal upside down++

Actually - what the OU finally concluded was that spinning the animal upside down dates back to the time of Moses.

[rebitzman]

Shmarya - I meant to use your [sarcasm] tag on that last post.

[Jason]

Rebitzman,

Can you please elaborate on the costs associated with organic vs non-organic. Are you saying that you bought the organic cow and the cost for such purchase was the same as it would have cost you to buy an entire non-organic cow?

[rebitzman]

++Are you saying that you bought the organic cow and the cost for such purchase was the same as it would have cost you to buy an entire non-organic cow?++

Yes

[Jason]

Why then does the rancher bother to even raise non-organic cows?

And does this mean he operates a commercial feedlot as well as pastures for grazing?

I'm very interested in this because (a) it is contrary to what I have typically heard and (b) it begs the question why anyone would operate a feedlot rather than an organic pasture. I had always understood that the amount of land required for grazing made the pasture more expensive than the feedlot, even taking into account the extra feed required for the feedlot cows. Maybe the economics have changed now that the price have corn has gone up so astronomically.

[snipe-fu]

Is meat that is labeled beit yosef raised and slaughtered the same as these or do they have a different way of going about it?

[Shmarya]

Exactly the same.

[rebitzman]

>>Why then does the rancher bother to even raise non-organic cows?>>

Land constraints - and contract considerations (he has agreed to deliver X head - can do it if they ar e free range).

[rebitzman]

>>Why then does the rancher bother to even raise non-organic cows?>>

IF the farmer I buy from (he is Jewish, by the way) was trying to maximize profits - he would lose the organic line because if he were producing only non-organic cattle on the same land - he could turn more animals.

Rachael is right about one thing - raising organic animals takes more of a commitment, but the fact is (around here anyway) is that he market simply won't pay more for the meat (with the exception of organic beef sold at farmers markets by the farmer themselves - and most simply do NOT have the time).

[Rachel Batya]

--All things being equal, you think it is a fair, valid choice to buy organic meat from a company that mistreats its human workforce over meat from a company that pays its workers well and is kind to them, but uses factory farm raised beef.--

I object to your premise that not providing health insurance is necessarily mistreating workers. I've worked for businesses that did not provide health insurance because they could not have remained in business. The costs of the premiums were too high. If this is the reason that Wise doesn't pay health insurance, I'd rather see them stay in business and offer humanely raised food than get driven out of business by trying to fulfill all of your criteria.

Jason, will you ask Wise why they don't pay health insurance and why they don't list their starting wage? Obviously, if they're rolling in money and can afford to pay health insurance, I'd have a big problem with the fact that they don't.

--All things being equal, you shouldn't buy either of them. If you have to buy one (for medical reasons, say), buy the one that treats humans well.--

If you have to eat chickens for medical reasons, it shouldn't be the ones that have spent their lives living in excrement and having antibiotics and growth hormones pumped into their bodies.

--In any case, it's unfair to compare an organic producer that employs 10 people to a factory farming business that employs many more.

Really? Why?--

Because the factory farm business uses ruthless efficiency to get its job done. This allows it to make more money, which means it can employ more workers, which means that it can expand, which means that it will make more money, etc. An organic farm is not anywhere near as efficient as a factory, because it's set up in opposition to the factory model.

Concerning rebitzman's experience...A cow raised on a farm that uses both organic and non-organic methods really can't be compared to a cow raised on a large factory farm. On a factory farm, the efficiency alone drives the price of the non-organic product down. You can pack far more animals into a much smaller space, and you can make everything a great deal more efficient.

Regarding the feed...It's entirely possible that the price of corn has made non-organic feed as expensive as organic feed. In our experience, the price of organic feed as always been much higher.

--And it is, I think, owned by Chabadniks who have been very supportive of the Rubashkins.--

If they're owned by Chabadniks, that's not in itself a reason to forego their product. If you're critical of my favoring organic food regardless of the conditions of the workers (which is an inaccurate way to characterize my views anyway), then I'm critical of your not favoring organic food just because it's raised by Chabadniks.

If they're also supportive of the Rubashkins, then they're doing a disservice to the entire organic food industry. I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone buy their products, and any potential loss of business to the organic food industry would rest squarely on their heads.

As you've no doubt gathered from my other posts, I stay out of all these compromises by raising and shechting my own animals. By raising the subject of Wise, I wanted to explore the ways that people who cannot raise their own animals can buy food that is produced in ethical ways.

Not everyone will go vegan, and for those people, I don't think that the choice between health-insured humans and humanely raised animals is nearly as easy as you make it sound. I'd never say that in every case, the life of an animal is more important than the life of a human being. Given that I shecht, pluck, gut, and eat chickens, that would be hypocritical. I do think that the misery of millions of factory farmed animals may very well outweigh the rights of 10 uninsured human beings. Human beings can lobby for universal health care. Animals cannot lobby for better living conditions.

I don't like a world in which you have to make these kind of choices, but that's what we've got.

[rebitzman]

++If you have to eat chickens for medical reasons++

What possible medical reason exists where one HAS to eat chicken?

++Concerning rebitzman's experience... A cow raised on a farm that uses both organic and non-organic methods really can't be compared to a cow raised on a large factory farm.++

You gleaned this bon mot from....? I don't recall saying anything about the size of the operation.

--What possible medical reason exists where one HAS to eat chicken?--

Shmarya raised this issue, and I happen to agree with him. I was a vegan/vegetarian for many years. My health now demands that I eat chicken a few times a week. That's why I started raising and shechting my own.

--I don't recall saying anything about the size of the operation.--

I have never seen a farm raising organic and non-organic animals that was anything like a factory farm. But you make a fair point, so I'll ask: When you go to the non-organic portion of the farm, do you see chickens in crates piled several tiers high? Do you see animals that are never allowed to go outdoors? Do you see cows that are restrained for their entire lives? Do you see animals being fed the cheapest and most disgusting feed possible, regardless of its health effects on animals and humans? Do you see filth everywhere? If you don't, you're not looking at a typical factory farm environment.

If you do, I'd question whether the organic side of the farm is really meeting its own standards.

[steve]

What possible medical reason exists where one HAS to eat chicken?

Can't make chicken soup without chicken.

[Shmarya]

Here's a Wise Organic quote that should interest you:http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14738/

That's what happened to Wise Organic Pastures, a kosher poultry and beef distributor in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Rachel Wiesenfeld, who owns the company with her husband and son, says that as far as she's concerned, all kosher slaughter is humane.

However, when Whole Foods offered to carry their chickens if they were certified by Steritech, a company that verifies humane food-production methods, the Wiesenfelds quickly agreed.

"Everyone was into this humane, humane, humane, so we went along with it," she notes.

[rebitzman]

++My health now demands that I eat chicken a few times a week. ++

You didn't answer my question.

What medical condition is it that dictates that one MUST eat chicken?

[rebitzman]

++Can't make chicken soup without chicken.++

Point conceded.

[Rachel Batya]

--all kosher slaughter is humane.--

Well, all kosher slaughter, done properly, is humane. It's entirely possible that's what she meant.

I'm not an overly trusting person by any means, but when someone's running a business with two certifications, each one requiring humane slaughter, and there have been no complaints along these lines, no PETA videos, no horror stories about shochets sawing away at the throats of cows, no chickens dumped by the side of the road, I don't particularly blame her for being a little impatient with Whole Foods requesting a third level of oversight. I think that's where her crack about "humane, humane, humane" came from. If I were in that position, I'd be impatient too. (I might be a little more politic about it expressing it, but then again, I'm a writer and I'm a lot more conscious of how I say things than most people.)

[rebitzman]

++Do you see animals that are never allowed to go outdoors? Do you see cows that are restrained for their entire lives? Do you see animals being fed the cheapest and most disgusting feed possible, regardless of its health effects on animals and humans? Do you see filth everywhere? If you don't, you're not looking at a typical factory farm environment.++

I was raised on a ranch (6000 acres in eastern Oregon given over to beef production) - and live in an area that is wall to wall dairy/beef.

Your "typical" farm doesn't exist.

++If you do, I'd question whether the organic side of the farm is really meeting its own standards. ++

Pretty cheap and easy calling a Jewish farmer a liar from a distance - don't you think? Especially given you admit you know exactly nothing about their operation.

[Rachel Batya]

--What medical condition is it that dictates that one MUST eat chicken?--

I'm not going to give you a lot of personal details here. Suffice it to say that when a friend asks me for dinner and wants to know whether there are any foods I can't eat, I usually reply with the short list of the ones I *can* eat. I'm allergic to all the rest. Chicken happens to be something I can eat with impunity. Since variety in one's diet is vital to one's health, I eat whatever I'm not allergic to (although, of course, I don't eat treif).

[WoolSIlkCotton]

I've never seen kosher meats at any Whole Foods store.
Am I to assume that Wise didn't follow through with going for the Steritech certification, or that they failed that process?

--Your "typical" farm doesn't exist.--

Of course it does.

And, it should go without saying, if you read my post correctly, that I didn't call your friend a liar. I said that if he is running a factory farm *with the conditions I was describing* on one side, I'd have questions about the organic side. I was quite clear in my post that I did not believe he was running a factory farm of that kind at all.

Sometimes, it's really possible to have a discussion with you, rebitzman. But when you start accusing me (and others) of saying things that we have very clearly *not* said, you're just trying to pick a fight, and I'm not interested in that at all.

[rebitzman]

++Of course it does. ++

Wow - what a rebuttal.

Where?

++that I didn't call your friend a liar. I said that if he is running a factory farm *with the conditions I was describing* on one side, I'd have questions about the organic side.++

And that is in fact calling him a liar - because he maintains (oh - and by the way is certified) that that side of his operation is organic.

Wise chicken has been at a few Chicago area Whole Foods stores but some have stopped carrying it because it wasn't selling well.

[Shmarya]

--all kosher slaughter is humane.--

Well, all kosher slaughter, done properly, is humane. It's entirely possible that's what she meant.

Please.

What you see on this video is "kosher slaughter done properly. That's what all the rabbis say.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Just found Wise chickens at the Whole Foods in Millburn NJ (a suburb in Essex County with a significant Jewish population).
The price is a bit shocking ($11.99/lb. for boneless chicken breast), but it's nice to see that a product can meet all the criteria of kosher, organic, free-range, etc.
Thank goodness I make a good living and don't eat chicken very often.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Please.

What you see on this video is "kosher slaughter done properly. That's what all the rabbis say.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2008 at 04:02 PM

So Shmarya, you mean to say that NO kosher slaughtering is humane? Or just that the rabbis permit shochtim to be "nevelim b'reshut hatorah" and short-shrift humane methodologies?

If the former: what choice does that leave observant Jews?

If the latter: where is done humanely?

[sage]

+++ Please.

What you see on this video is "kosher slaughter done properly. That's what all the rabbis say.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2008 at 04:02 PM

So Shmarya, you mean to say that NO kosher slaughtering is humane? Or just that the rabbis permit shochtim to be "nevelim b'reshut hatorah" and short-shrift humane methodologies?

If the former: what choice does that leave observant Jews?

If the latter: where is done humanely?

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | September 08, 2008 at 02:45 PM +++

Hi Yochanan,

Your points are very well supported by the follwing article, posted in another thread:

[http:/jcarrot.org/agro-about-agriprocessors/print/]

I'm not sure if Shmarya has read this, but if he has, he might see that his comment: ["What you see on this video is "kosher slaughter done properly. That's what all the rabbis say."] can not be halachically defended, according to the author, Rabbi David Seidenberg.

[Shmarya]

You continue to confuse what you want the halakha to be with what it is.

I've read the JCarrot piece. What Rabbi Seidenberg misses is that the "butcher" mentioned in the Talmud did not have a mashgiach tmidi. Rubashkin does.

Therefore people who eat Rubashkin meat rely on the mashgiach (the OU, Supreme Kosher, etc.) – not on the Rubashkins themselves.

That doesn't completely remove Rubashkin from the problems created by the gemara – but the issue is not as black and white as Rabbi Seidenberg says.

I would say, however, that if the issues were kashrut issues or Shabbat issues rather than other sins, Rubashkin would be finished.

[Shmarya]

So Shmarya, you mean to say that NO kosher slaughtering is humane? Or just that the rabbis permit shochtim to be "nevelim b'reshut hatorah" and short-shrift humane methodologies?

If the former: what choice does that leave observant Jews?

If the latter: where is done humanely?

Eat Hebrew National or Aurora or go veg.