BREAKING! OU TO "SUSPEND" AGRIPROCESSORS SUPERVISION WITHIN 2 WEEKS UNLESS NEW MANAGEMENT IS NAMED

The operative word here is "suspend" – not revoke.

The JTA…

…reports:

Charges Spark O.U. Threat

Following the filing of criminal charges against owners of the kosher meat producer Agriprocessors, the Orthodox Union says it will withdraw its kosher certification of the company within two weeks unless new management is hired.

"Within the coming days, or lets say a week or two, we will suspend our supervision unless there's new management in place," said Rabbi Menachem Genack, the O.U.'s head of kosher supervision.

Genack's comments came just hours after Iowa's attorney general filed criminal charges against Agriprocessors and its owner, Aaron Rubashkin, for child-labor violations.…

[Hat Tip: The Other DK]

Comments

[Anonymous]

Management doesn't mean anything.

[Paul Freedman]

They shudda sold.

The suspension is probably contingent on new management (whatever that means, the Rubashkin family may not be able to restructure in any way that would include enough participation to p_ss off existing critics).

I remain baffled, a line comes to my creaky brain cells.

"People said beware doll, you're bound to fall, but you thought they were all ....
kidding youuuuuu...."

YL knows the rest I'm sure.

Getzel's a nice guy and there are surely other members of the family who have more grace than these apparent old reprobates....

As noted previously, at a certain point the path of *least resistance* for the "establishment" is to cut the management here loose--least resistance, easiest, brain-dead call, no philosophical dithering, no Hamlet, no pilpul.

To force your allies to that point requires a certain single-mindedness of purpose.

But maybe the altercock's can pull rabbits out of the hat when day is done.

I'll believe it when i see it.

the quote form Genack is quite loose. within the coming days? or maybe a week? or maybe two weeks? or maybe something else? if they were serious about forcing Rubaskins hand they would pick a firm date and stick to it. two weeks form today is one week before R"H. will the OU pull it then or say that they don't want to disrupt food distribution before the holidays?

this is the perfect oppurtunity for OU to right the ship. They should pick a date that is reasonable, today and stick to it with no excuses. December 31st sounds like a reasonable date to me. That would give them 100 days to turn over management and put new procedures in place. as it is now this will lead to more excuses and the passing of the bad press. OU is just trying to lay low here. (just my prediction, let them prove me wrong)

[Archie Bunker]

100 days? Are you out of your mind?

It may become a moot point as Agri may implode by itself.

[Jake]

They need to put their company in a blind trust managed by non Jewish lawyers who are above reproach.

As long asm angement is paid by Rubashkins who are still involoved in operations it wont work.

[Archie Bunker]

"non Jewish lawyers who are above reproach"

You mean like Jim Martin? Please! It seems anyone can be bought off these days.

[The Other DK]

"They shudda sold."

Who would want to buy it?

[Anonymous]

"They shudda sold."

Who would want to buy it?

You mean who would want to buy a near monopoly?

[Paul Freedman]

Other DK: that would depend upon the state of the plant equipment, facilities, relationships with distributors etc. People have commented that potential buyers were waiting for the corporate collapse for a firesale--the EPA forced modern waste management/maybe water filtration so there are probably assets and "corporate good name" (ho ho, it would just be value of intangibles) that discounted will be attractive and it is not such a far fetch to imagine a scenario where new management also means new ownership to some degree as the situation, that seems driven by law enforcment, [d]evolves

[Schneur]

If the OU is serious , then ASAP they need to create a kosher meat producer to take up the slack of the eventual closure of Rubashkin. I do not believe that what Empire is planning is what is needed, nor is it a good idea to give Empire a near total monopoly of kosher meat and poultry. In fact its not a good idea to have the OU supervise kosher meat after what happened in Postville.
Frankly ahould the OU not be asked how all these violations of federal law happened on their watch. here is where hechsher Zedek comes in.

[Barry]

No doubt as we speak, some of the brightest Harvard Business School graduates are pondering the possibilies available to them should they move to Postville.

The OU put all its eggs in the Agriprocessors basket. You do not have to be much of a manager to recognize that Agriprocessors business model is and always was exploitative. The OU closed its eyes to that for reasons which are obvious. Any new management that Agriprocessors draws in will always reflect that reality and will just be a bunch of chancers and third raters whom the OU may have little alternative but to endorse.

How can the OU suspend its supervison of Agriprocessors when no other producer can take up its production in the short to medium term? The OU is more reliant on Agriprocessors than Agriprocessors is on it as was shown by the recent farcical 'rabinical inspection'.

For a supervision authority to allow one kosher meat producer to have a near monopoly makes sense when one is talking about the Jews of Norway or New Zealand not the Jewish community of the USA.

[Jason]

Baruch Hashem, at least we know the OU draws the line somewhere, even if it is just an imaginary line.

[Carol-Ann]

This scenario reminds me of a verse:

(Timothy 6:10)
"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

[isabel]

The midwest is the best of the best in beef and poultry products and is plentiful and raised on acres and acres of fertile soil,it is known as the bread basket of the world.The area where Postville is located(in northeast Iowa is titled Little Switzerland,the Mississippi River brings with it many hunting and fishing sites.It's not New York but it has its advantages for the right company to invest and bring fair and honest jobs while still making a good investment.The disgrace that was dumped on this little town should never have happened.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Paul: Thanks for the shout out. I used "Like a Rolling Stone" for a non-Rubashkin parody.

[Barry]

No doubt there are a good many reasons why the inhabitants of the Iowa love their state. Unfortunately for the majority of East Coast residents, Iowa could just as well be in the Congo and they never had its interests at heart.
One of the lessons to be learned from this fiasco is that shechita should be carried out within commuting range of a major Jewish community so as to ensure proper control and supervision. Had Agriprocessors operations been based in New Jersey, its management failures would have come to the attention of the Jewish community far earlier and with less disasterous effect.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Well, here is my Rubbishcan version (apologies Bob):

Like A Rubbishcan Stoned

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the employees a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware rabbi, you're bound to hit your keppie"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was bloggin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for a kosher meal. [in prison]

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Rubbishcan, stoned?

You've gone to the finest yeshiva all right, Mr. Macher
But you know you only used to get Jews in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you call your ex-workers because they're used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the district attorney, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare in the backroom, in his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without your plant
With no more sycophants
Like a powerless ant
Like a Rubbish-can't?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the strugglers and the townies
When they all come down and did work for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your jerk for you
You used to live in the Mc Mansion with your PR flack
Who carried in his portfolio some tricks that are wack
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be in the "can"
With no kosher SPAM
Like a complete small man
Like a Rubbishcan?

St. Briget's with the steeple and all the hungry people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got enslaved
Exchanging all kinds of precious food and things
But you'd better lift your toilet paper, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Shmarya's blog and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, make him an offer he can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be no longer kosher
With no direction like Moshe [in the midbar]
Like a complete "gaucher" [someone who is 'gauche']
Like a Rubbish potion?

[Paul Freedman]

FOR OWNERS OF CAPITAL

I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
The factory floor idles down and needs sweeping
Still my guitar gently weeps

I don't know how you were diverted
you were perverted too
I don't know how you were inverted
no one alerted you

yeah yeah yeah....

[steve]

First the KAJ abanoned ship and now the OU. Of course Weissmandl plans on staying on and sinking with the ship.

[Simon]

Nasty, nasty, nasty, buggers!!! I am nauseated that I ever ate a Rubashkin's product. These revolting reprobates should be stoned outside the city gates as the vile nasty scumbags they are!!!

Condescending slimy dirty, arrogant, and impertinent little men always get their comeuppance! May HaShem deal with them as they dealt with their goyim.

Was I obtuse?

[WoolSilkCotton]

The legal issues will be dragged on for years by Lewin.
Ultimately, Lewin will work a plea bargain in which Rubashkin will pay fines, restitution, community donations, etc. without jail time for any Rubashkin family member and with no official admission of guilt.
The OU will then claim that there were no convictions.

[sage]

Not if the presiding Judge is a no-nosense type, G-d willing.

If not, he could pull a brilliant move and, under special dispensation, hire Judge Judy to sit on the bench.

[sage]

In my opinion, the OU is playing a very cynical game.

It will find some way to delay pulling its certification, claiming that it will take Agri a very long to find new management.

The legal authorites can stop the OU cold in its tracks, by closing down Agri and all other Rubashkin Animal Agribusinesses, pending the outcome of the trial.

[Al]

++ If the OU is serious , then ASAP they need to create a kosher meat producer to take up the slack of the eventual closure of Rubashkin. ++

The OU needs to "create a kosher meat producer" ? This is a free market based on supply and demand. The problem IS THE OU and other hechshers that take it upon themselves to limit a market and prevent others from enetering on an ongoing basis.

In my neighborhood the hechshers regularly refuse to give hashgacha to new establishments because a local kosher pizza store or other businesses cry to them that they will impact his income !

What a joke.. who would not cry such things when the hechsher can assure a monopoly that eliminates the need t price competativly ! At the prices charged for kosher meat and the cost structure that exists at places like Agriprocessors, shame on us, for allowing non-porits like the OU (who makes lots of profits that they distribut not to shareholders but to employees - leaving no profits) to control the marketplace. If they did not hide behind the holy grail of religion, the US government would not tolerate it.

This is an issue that needs to be fixed ! If we get stuck without red meat for a few months.. what will happen to us ? Nothing !!! Let Rubashkin collapse and let the market evolve as it will naturally.. and let the OU see observe the situation they help to promote in a big way !

[Al]

Sage: The issue is that in America (and God bless America) you are innocent unti proven guilty. I doubt the government will shut them down and impact their profit and loss statement in all probability bankrupting them until a trial is over. Furtheremore the potential (almost definite) cry from Rubashkin supporters and those of us Jews who see any action against a jew as anti-semetic will no doubt frighten the govenment into being very careful.

At the same time, we the consumer can destroy Rubashkin by simply not buying product. My wife has insisted that she ask all kosher butchers if they use Rubashkin and if they do, she lets them know that she considers it not-kosher and will not buy meat from them. If enough of us do this, we will drive butchers to buy from other sources and that is what will drive Ruashin down !

[sage]

Hi Al,

You have a good point.

But according to Halacha, a butcher suspected of criminal activity must be shut down by the religious authorities, in this case the OU or some other group.

Because the OU and other Rubashkin certifying agencies are in it soley for the money, this will never happen and is where most of the difficulties lie.

[Shmarya]

according to Halacha, a butcher suspected of criminal activity must be shut down by the religious authorities

This is false. As I pointed out earlier, that halakha does not take into account constant supervision. It assumes NO supervision.

It may be that Agriprocessors should lose its hechshers, but the halakha Rabbi Siedenfeld cited is not the correct basis for removing them.

[sage]

But who's worse, a butcher who engages in criminal activity with supervision or one who does the same without?

If the first butcher is worse, as I feel and that probably most rational people would hold, then Rubashkin should be shut down.

Butchers without supervision have been shut down by Rabbis in their communities when caught violating Halacha or engaging in criminal activities.

[Shmarya]

Sigh.

You don't understand the halakha or how it works.

If Rubashkin cheated rabbis, if he lied to them or misled them, then a case can be made to remove his supervision.

If all he did was steal from others or violate child labor law – that case is far less clear halakhicly.

[Yochanan Lavie]

If all he did was steal from others or violate child labor law – that case is far less clear halakhicly.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 10, 2008 at 05:49 PM

I defer to Shmarya's expertise on the minutae of halacha. However, ethically the choice is clear. The meat may be technically kosher, but the people who who produced it are "nevilim b'reshut hatorah." Kosher, schmosher- boycott it.

[sage]

With due respect to Shmarya, my understanding of Jewish Law is, that it is a greater Hillul Hashem to sin against a non-Jew than a Jew.

So why a butcher may get off scott-free by abusing a non-Jew, while suffering sanction abusing a Jew, simply makes no logical sense.

Also, the Torah command against abusing a worker needs to be considered.

[Paul Freedman]

sage, the line of argument noted by Shmarya might not relate to the relative merits of lying to a Jew or to a non-Jew but be that absent supervision other misconduct could indicate that shechita is not being conducted per relevant halacha, but with supervision other misconduct and moral laxness is protected from entering that process. Similarly, if that rabbinic supervision's neutrality is directly threatened by lying or cheating rabbinic supervisors kashrus is suspect.

[Paul Freedman]

lying or other infractions...

[Paul Freedman]

the dilemma being, how interdependent in practical rule-making are rules whose immediate application is in this sphere and not that sphere--if you feed your worker non-kosher food are you abusing him or her? if the worker is non-Jewish? a householder abuses servants who assisting in erecting a succah--is it legal? etc.

[Shmarya]

With due respect to Shmarya, my understanding of Jewish Law is, that it is a greater Hillul Hashem to sin against a non-Jew than a Jew.

So why a butcher may get off scott-free by abusing a non-Jew, while suffering sanction abusing a Jew, simply makes no logical sense.

Also, the Torah command against abusing a worker needs to be considered.

Like I've said many times, idealized halakha is, unfortunately, not the halakha – at least as far as today's haredi rabbis go.

And, as I have already explained, having kosher supervision removes some of the caveats mentioned in the Shulkhan Arukh.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya: I would wonder how MO halachic teachers/professors/responders rule on this type of issue: same as black hat?

[Al]

"If Rubashkin cheated rabbis, if he lied to them or misled them, then a case can be made to remove his supervision.

If all he did was steal from others or violate child labor law – that case is far less clear halachicly."

All I can say is that if this is the case - what a sad comment on halacha.

But I must ask again: has anyone ever tried to understand the economics between preparation of kosher vs. non-kosher meat ? Why am I paying 3 times the price of non-kosher meat ? I fear that if the slaughterhouses and butchers could not hide behind "religious freedoms" that they would be brought up on charges of collusion and anti-competitive practices with the help of kosher certification agencies.

Frankly, I am tired of paying 2-4 times the price for common goods like Meat, cheese and wine that can not possible cost 2-4 times to produce. WE ARE BEING ROBBED BLIND !

If people here agree, I wonder if there is not way to take the kosher food industry to task here by pressuring the government into an investigation of abusive and managed pricing practices...