BREAKING! MENACHEM LUBINSKY: AGRIPROCESSORS CONTINUES TO DO THROAT-HACKING – Exclusive Report Explains Why USDA Allows Agriprocessors To Continue Torturing Animals

That's right. The sawing and hacking done to the gaping throat wounds of fully conscious cattle continues.

First, Menachem Lubinsky's letter sent earlier today to the NY Times:

Dear Julia:

I was terribly disappointed in your piece this morning that included a quote from me, which makes me wonder whether the sense of fairness you tried to display in your previous piece was somehow missing here.

For starters, there are several inaccuracies: You write: “Under the regulations, a “second cut” in an animal’s throat can be made only in exceptional cases by rabbis or under their supervision. These cuts are sometimes made to speed blood flow from the animals.” There is nothing in the regulations that mentions exceptional cases and in fact if you had read the regulations, you would see a blanket permission for the second cut.

Here are the Direct quotes from the regulations on the subject of a second cut:

Inspection program personnel are to verify that after the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding, no dressing procedure (e.g., head skinning, leg removal, ear removal, horn removal, opening hide patterns), is performed until the animal is insensible.

Inspection program personnel are not to interfere in any manner with the preparation of the animal for ritual slaughter, including the positioning of the animal, or the ritual slaughter cut and any additional cut to facilitate bleeding.

Secondly: Whoever told you that Agriprocessors agreed to suspend the second cut when it was never demanded of them and the procedure continues?

Third: You conveniently omitted my quote that the second cut in fact only hastens the elimination of any pain or suffering, if there is any?

Finally, this story would have been more appropriate to point out that PETA’s activities were illegal and that the USDA used the strong term that Agriprocessors is “in full compliance.” Why not tell the truth?

Menachem Lubinsky
President & CEO, LUBICOM Marketing Consulting, which represents Agriprocessors and
Editor-in-Chief, Kosher Today

VIN got that Lubinsky letter, presumably from Lubinsky himself.

Now, here is the exclusive FailedMessiah.com report that broke the story of the USDA's inability to follow its own stated policies and regulations:

January 31, 2008
EXCLUSIVE: USDA Allows Rubashkin Meat Hook Use to "Facilitate Bleeding"
Meat hook to probe or slash open throat wounds of fully conscious cattle "protected" by "religious" exemption to Humane Slaughter Act

Documents (posted below) obtained by FailedMessiah.com under the Freedom of Information Act show that the USDA now permits probing or excision of an open ritual slaughter wound using a meat hook, even though the cattle this procedure is performed on are fully conscious at the time the procedure is carried out.

Further, even though internal USDA documents, made public here for the first time, show the USDA expects a "rabbi" will perform the meat hook procedure, in practice the USDA allows any plant employee, Jewish or not, trained or not, to carry it out.

The USDA ruled in an internal document (posted below) dated June 12, 2007 that use of a "node hook" (a small meat hook often called a boning hook) by a "rabbi" to "facilitate bleeding" falls under the religious exemption for ritual slaughter and can be done to fully conscious cattle.

The USDA was responding to complaints generated by a PETA undercover video taken at Rubashkin's Gordon, Nebraska, Local Pride, LLC plant. That video showed a non-Jewish worker probing the open throat wounds of fully conscious cattle with a meat hook seconds after slaughter.

The OU promised more than three years ago to stop using meat hooks in the open throat wounds of animals.

When caught using a smaller meat hook this spring, the OU denied a meat hook was used. Yet clearly a meat hook was used.

The USDA documents posted below note the plant has agreed to stop using the "node hook" and will not resume using it before notifying the USDA FSIS.

There is no provision made to notify consumers about the use of the "node hook."

After the story broke, I reported that the USDA had cleared Rubashkin because use of the meat hook (which the USDA then-called an "instrument") was protected under the religious exemption to the Humane Slaughter Act. The USDA FSIS chief spokesman Steven Cohen, apparently referencing the documents I've posted below, also wrote:

[A]t certain times, an instrument was used by a plant employee designated by the rabbi as a means of facilitating bleeding. Clarification of the acceptability of this practice was sought and it was determined that this limited practice was acceptable as it is within the religious exemption provided for in the HMSA.

Yet the actual USDA FSIS document (posted below) clearly expects a "rabbi" will perform this procedure, and that the procedure is an integral part of the ritual slaughter itself, not a dressing procedure to benefit the plant:

Such a procedure performed by the rabbi is covered by the exemption or "bubble". Once the animal is rendered to a state of complete and continuous unconsciousness, plant processing of a ritually slaughtered animal may begin.

This summer, when the PETA video of Rubashkin's Gordon plant broke, Rabbi Seth Mandel of the the OU told me that the USDA had ordered throat probing with the meat hook, not the rabbis. This was false.

Rabbi Mandel also claimed the procedure was not a part of the ritual slaughter process.

I also spoke this summer with USDA FSIS inspectors about this procedure. They said the USDA's veterinarian, Dr. York told them that:

[F]rom the moment the animal enters the slaughter box until the moment it is removed from that box, the USDA has nothing to say or do about what takes place. The USDA, Dr. York [said], does "not interfere with glatt kosher slaughter."

Of course, this was not the position of the USDA under any previous administration.

As first reported here more than three years ago, rabbis – including leaders of the OU, Star-K, CRC (Chicago), and Agudath israel – successfully lobbied the Bush Administration in October of 2003 to have directives covering ritual slaughter weakened. The Bush Administration not only did what the rabbis wanted, it did more than the rabbis asked for, making it almost impossible for on site FSIS inspectors to stop a glatt kosher production line.

Indeed, under the formulation found in these newly obtained USDA FSIS documents, it would seem possible that even the egregious throat-ripping done at Rubashkin's Iowa plant and uncovered by PETA would now be considered humane by the Bush Administration's USDA.

The documents follow these pictures of the "node hook" in use at Local Pride, LLC, Rubashkin's Nebraska plant:

Most of the documents are posted below as JPEGs.

The complete set of documents is posted as a PDF file at the very bottom of the post.

If you're posting on this, please make sure to link to the post itself and not to the specific document. Also please make sure to credit FailedMessiah.com with a full, working link if you use any of the documents or the PDF.

Thank you.

failedmessiah.com Rubashkin Gordon NE FOIA.pdf

[Hat Tips for the Lubinsky letter: Formerly Frum and Steve.]

Comments

[Carol-Ann]

A congressional hearing to include expert scientific testimony is needed to establish specific standards and guidelines for religious slaughter of livestock in the United States.

The question is, how to get it done?

[critical_minyan]

shmarya,
you are amazing. you keep on getting more and more dirt on these guys. It helps that people you are fighting are both mudslingers and as dirty as they come, but still it's incredible that you are able to consistently come up with new informative information for us to read and be outraged by.
I know this week the guys you are fighting, Lubinsky, Genack etc. are happy Shabbes is coming and they can relax at least for 24 hours until you start nailing them again.

[Archie Bunker]

Is this a Rubashkin affiliated company like Gal or Nevel?

http://iowaindependent.com/5065/convicted-felon-from-guatemala-and-detained-in-postville-pleads-guilty

By Lynda Waddington 9/5/08 2:30 AM

A 28-year-old convicted felon who had been previously deported from the U.S. pleaded guilty in federal court in Cedar Rapids Thursday to unlawfully reentering the country following removal subsequent to a conviction for an aggravated felony.

Luis Eduardo Ixen-Tzuquen admitted in court that he was a Guatemalan citizen who has never had legal residency status in the U.S. He was convicted in Allamakee County for felony third degree burglary in June 2000. Ixen-Tzuquen was then deported back to Guatemala in February 2001.

On June 23, 2008 agents with Immigration and Customs Enforcement acted on a tip and detained Ixen-Tzuquen as he stood on the sidewalk in front of a restaurant in downtown Postville.

Ixen-Tzuquen had not been working for Agriprocessors, the kosher meatpacking plant that was the site of a massive immigration raid in May, but had been doing jobs for a local property management company. Two former Postville residents reported at the time of the arrest that Ixen-Tzuquen was the person sent to their residences to evict them once they had stopped working at the meatpacking plant and rent monies could no longer be deducted from their plant pay.

Sentencing, before U.S. Chief District Court Judge Linda R. Reade, has not yet been scheduled. Ixen-Tzuquen remains in the custody of the U.S. Marshal’s Office pending sentencing. He faces a possible maximum sentence of 20 years in prison, a $250,000 fine, a $100 special assessment and post-prison supervised release for up to three years.

[Archie Bunker]

"VIN got that Lubinsky letter, presumably from Lubinsky himself."

Lubinsky has been peddling around that blogs are not reliable sources of kashrus information. This is of course his attempt to discredit the sites, 3 in particular, who expose Rubashkin & OU scandals.

At the same time, he uses VIN & his sidekick Yehuda Eckstein at YWN to spread his propaganda.

[Archie Bunker]

I've probably mentioned here before that Genack had also given personal assurances to rabbis at other organizations that the throat ripping would stop. When Rubashkin was caught again, they stopped trusting anything the man says.

[Shmarya]

Is this a Rubashkin affiliated company like Gal or Nevel?

I believe, yes. He worked for one of those two companies – probably Nevel.

[steve]

These people lie right through their teeth and yet they are still respected individuals. Go figure.

[sage]

Hi Steve,

Yes, it is difficult to observe these folks somehow prospering, but what is really happening, in my opinion, is, that their evil words and actions are fueling the fire that, in the end, will consume them.

Such are the ways of G-d, but we need to be patient for ultimate justice to be served in these very trying times.

[sage]

Very informative article by Rabbi David Seidenberg: "Can Agriprocessors do T'shuvah?" posted on "The Jew and the Carrot".

http://jcarrot.org/agro-about-agriprocessors/

[steve]

With Shmarya's help, I would like to compile a list of all the lies that have emanated from the Rubashkin camp these last four years. It's about time we put together a catalogue of the lies and abuses these bastards have been perpetrating.

[Anon]

Can someone answer the question - is the second cut permitted or not? It would seem to me that if it hastens death, it arguably is better for the cow than just letting it bleed to death from a single cut. In any case, I think there are two key issues with Rubashkin: (i) is the meat kosher and (ii) are they guilty of mistreating their workers. Whether they give the cow an extra kick in the behind seconds before they are going to slit its throat doesn't seem like earth shaterring news to me. Barring unusually cruel mistreatment of the animals, I'm going to leave that to PETA and fellow nutcases.

[Archie Bunker]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DCGOA_RlajQ/SMPdjrrAO6I/AAAAAAAACIk/BM5WOLqpANI/s1600-h/simlah-2.gif

The Shach, Simla Chadashah & Damesek Eliezer here hold that all of Rubashkin's meat is forbidden based on the video.

[Archie Bunker]

PETA may have some nutty motivations but they did a tremendous public service by releasing that video. Whoever chows down on Rubashkin products now has no excuse that they can rely on Weissmandel and the OU for kashrus.

[Archie Bunker]

The PETA video also demonstrates that gentiles may not consume Rubashkin product according to the Noahide laws.

[Archie Bunker]

http://iowaindependent.com/4414/situation-at-agriprocessors-off-limits-to-outside-scrutiny-says-rabbi

morristownmaven 2 weeks ago

Evidently, Rabbi Wiessmandl hasn't head of the Jewish law "dina malchuta dina" (the law of the land is the law). In this country when it comes to worker health and safety, everyone including the ritual slaughters and Rabbis fall under the protection of OSHA and thus are "subject to scrutiny." When workers are reported to have walked off the job, seems to me OSHA has an obligation to investigate.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080906/BUSINESS/809060314/1001/NEWS

Temple Grandin, a widely respected animal-welfare consultant who reviewed the PETA video, found fault with the way the second cut was done. She said the video showed workers using a harsh "digging, gouging" motion that would "definitely cause the animal pain." The second cut should be smaller and is rarely necessary if the first cut is made properly, she said.

The video "clearly shows that when they think nobody is looking they do bad things in that plant," she said.

Grandin said the plant should install video cameras to ensure that workers are following proper procedures when they aren't being watched.

Menachem Lubinsky, a spokesman for Agriprocessors, said the company had fully complied with federal regulations.

"The company defers all decisions at the point of slaughter to its certifying rabbis," he said.

[steve]

Archie,

They can claim that the second cut is not ripping the sircha. With the meat hook, it was certainly an issue.

[Archie Bunker]

Rubashkin "claims" many things.

If it was a "digging, gouging" motion, would an objective person knowledgable in these matters say it is all that different than a throat ripping? This wasn't just some superficial cut.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=214907

Lubinsky said the company learned about the video through the media, and that the video only "creates sensationalism" and "puts the company in a situation in which it never should be" as the plant is considered to be in compliance with USDA regulations.

Lubinsky called PETA's actions "illegal."

"You just can't walk into a plant in America and videotape without permission," he said, also citing breaking and entering, trespassing, industrial espionage and false representation as an employee as possible violations.

[Archie Bunker]

ANother example of Lubinsky foolishness.

Corporate or industrial espionage as covered by an act of Congress in the late 1990s pertains to getting the information on behalf of a foreign government or business competitor.

There was probably no breaking & entering in this case either.

"False representation" is only criminal in very defined instances.

The only criminally false representation here is Rubashkin & Lubinsky telling the public that Agri is a safe and kosher product.

[Archie Bunker]

Since when is Lubinsky a bigger expert on animal pain & suffering than Dr. Temple Grandin?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-ia-petacomplaint3rdl,0,4914287.story

Agriprocessors spokesman Menachem Lubinsky said kosher regulations give "blanket approval" for a second cut when slaughtering cattle.

"The second cut in fact only hastens the elimination of any pain or suffering, if there is any," Lubinsky said.

[Rachel Batya]

Shmarya,

Thank you for transmuting your pain and outrage into holy work. You're really a marvel...

[rebitzman]

++Lubinsky called PETA's actions "illegal."++

Technically - he is correct.

Technically.

[Rachel Batya]

--Lubinsky said the company learned about the video through the media, and that the video only "creates sensationalism"--

The *video* creates sensationalism? What is he thinking--that these are some kind of special effects? Yeah, I looked at that video and said "Wow, man, how do they make it look so convincing? It looks exactly like that worker is actually cutting into a cow's gaping wound with a meat hook."

[sage]

Lubinsky, Lewin, Rubashkin, Genack, Mandel.

They and other defenders of the indefensible are simply out and out unrepentant liars, for whom, TeShuvah, this year, will be problematical.

What else can we say?

[steve]

Halse says crime has gone up slightly, and now he is trying to hire another officer to help out. Once called the "Hometown to the World," he hopes things in Postville will start to go back to normal. But he believes that could still be years away.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/27971679.html

[Chaya]

Chabad abuses, persecutes, degrades, torments Americans children, men and women for profiteering.

So why would an animal be any different?

Rabbi Krinsky lies under sworn statements against American soldiers family and daughter.

""'Aviva Gordon""" esq Rabbi Krinsky lawyer in Las Vegas. Claimed under and by a sworn statements that Chabad is not a part of Las Vegas Chabad in any way. Never did business threw Chabad together.

Rabbi Krinsky "Federal Court" soon.

Shame and disgrace the whole story of hate and sex crimes will be exposed this time.

What a bunch of band-ant's and ali-babes.

Every Jew knows that is a direct lie to win. Abuse of power and fraud.

[Rachel Batya]

I noticed this text in one of the documents. Please let me know whether I'm interpreting this properly:

"A rabbi then performs the ritual cut (taking four to six strokes to perform the cut)."

What? Four to six strokes? I thought two was the limit. Actually, I thought one was the limit, but then the Bush administration increased it to two. Now it's six?

"This procedure is interpreted by this inspector to be acceptable as the first stroke severs the carotids and the remaining strokes deepen the ritual cut to open the wound, thereby facilitating the bleeding process..."

Is this inspector correct? Or are these incisions being made on an animal that can still feel pain?

"A plant employee then uses a node hook to hold and separate tissue while making additional cuts to facilitate bleeding."

So both the shochet and the plant employee are making multiple cuts to facilitate the bleeding of a still-conscious animal? Am I reading this correctly?

"One animal struggled violently while bleeding out."

What a surprise.

[Shmarya]

Archie –

Would you please scan and post the section of the Simla Chadasha that deals with the second cut?

Thanks!

[Shmarya]

Or are these incisions being made on an animal that can still feel pain?

Yes, the animal can still feel pain.

As for the number of cuts the shochet makes, the inspector is speaking about what is really a continuous stroke that looks a lot like sawing (because it is). But as long as the shochet doesn't pause or press, it's kosher.

[Jake]

Shmarya

Thanks for the great coverage!

If anyone knows where can one buy Hebrew National meat. Not talking about cold cuts or franks etc. But steak , ground meat etc.

Preferably in the NY area

The info would be very appreciated.

[rebitzman]

++If anyone knows where can one buy Hebrew National meat.++

Everything they kill here gets ground into sausage and dogs.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I couldn't bring myself to watch the video.

I suspect that if Hebrew National provided other kinds of meat, the corrupt Orthodox establish would pull their hechsher (which they don't trust anyway). Look what happened when Frank Perdue wanted to open a kosher line. They will do anything to protect their heimische old boys network.

[rebitzman]

++the corrupt Orthodox establish would pull their hechsher++

It's an Orthodox hechsher NOW.

[steve]

YU's transgender prof:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09082008/news/regionalnews/ye_she_va_128002.htm

[Paul Freedman]

The animals are being killed here. There aren't going to be pretty videos of the process under the best of circumstances. I have read that up to five electronic wounds to the skullpan and brain are allowed with a spike gun. I would wager that viewing even the most successful one-off execution of a cattle via the spike gun and progressive rendering woudn't induce warm and fuzzy feelings and stimulate the appetite for beef. Why a hook and not a knife? I don't know .

If the animal is not bled out won't it continue to suffer?

My personal question would be whether it wasn't possible or even halachic to refine the slaughter so that one cut cause a bleed out leading to quick loss of consciousness.

[Paul Freedman]

That is what is the method of slaughter being suggested here that the animal enjoys or feels no discomfort? I doubt spike gun qualifies.

[Paul Freedman]

These animals are *not* being euthanized. They're being slaughtered.

[Archie Bunker]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DCGOA_RlajQ/SMPdcUG2MwI/AAAAAAAACIc/Kk-jo69hXzY/s1600-h/simlah-1.gif

This is the only other page I see scanned so far from Simlah Chadasha. I usually get these types of scans from the 3 bloggers known for them. Rabbi Shain, Professor Shapiro & Hershel Tzig.

[Archie Bunker]

Steve, I wasn't thinking yesterday.

It's irrelevant what Rubashkin argues. The shochet walking away after shechita on a regular basis makes all of their meat prohibited because the workers are capable of doing anything. Then again Getzel would probably come up with some excuse that the video captured an "aberration" in sop.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/27971779.html

Agriprocessors now has replacement workers... new neighbors... strangers to this city. Abbas hears the stories about the new hires and the trouble many bring with them.

"People telling me they're locking their doors, telling me they're afraid to let their kids go out after 6pm to go to the park or do anything."

It's a revolving fear, because many of the plant's new workers don't stick around.

Without a steady stream of employees, residents still worry Agriprocessors might join the other businesses closing shop.

[Archie Bunker]

Rubashkin threatens employees not to talk.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080908/NEWS/809080324/-1/BUSINESS04

Even those who had good things to say about the town and their new employer said they didn't want their names printed in the newspaper, because they said their supervisors had told them not to talk to reporters ... A woman ... spoke about a house where labor recruiters had placed her. At first, she said, she was expected to sleep on the floor in a dank basement. "I'd rather live on cardboard by the side of the road," she said.

Gutierrez said company officials and the landlords they work with made the arrangement sound reasonable when he signed papers. But he didn't realize he would work 60-hour weeks and be left with too little money to support himself.

In interviews, his landlord and his former employer denied doing anything wrong. The check was from Jacobson Cos., a Des Moines-based firm that has been doing the hiring for Agriprocessors since the raid. Marty Howard, a Jacobson lawyer and executive, said he didn't know the individual circumstances of the check, but he said his company is only making deductions that employees agree to beforehand.

Howard said he didn't see a major difference between having rent and deposit deducted from a paycheck, as in this case, or expecting people to make those payments independently after receiving a regular paycheck. Either way, he said, people have to decide if they can afford to live on the pay offered by a given job. "If a guy can't make it on that, then I guess he leaves," Howard said.

Gutierrez's landlord, Menahem Gabay, said that he no longer is asking the company to withhold rent from new tenants' paychecks.

Gabay said he started the practice only because so many people were coming to town with no money for deposits and first month's rent. He said he thought that he was giving them a break by agreeing to rent them an apartment if they would agree to have those costs taken out of their checks, but the practice caused too much confusion. Gabay said he has resumed his previous practice of requiring a deposit and first month's rent upfront.

Chaim Abrahams, the plant's purchasing manager, said no one should expect a landlord to rent an apartment without any assurance of payment.

Abrahams acknowledged that the plant's work force has seen significant turnover this summer. He said many people have heard the starting wage has increased to about $10 an hour for unskilled labor, and they are coming to Postville to check out the situation.

"I think it's quite normal for people to try to come and get the opportunity to see what the work is like," Abrahams said. Some leave, he said, but an increasing number are staying.

Abrahams said his company has quietly moved to help new employees. He noted that Agriprocessors has donated hundreds of pounds of meat to the food pantry, and he said it also has agreed to take smaller rent payments from some people staying in rental housing Agriprocessors owns.

Organizers of a July protest march in Postville asked Agriprocessors to donate $100,000 to a humanitarian fund run by Ouderkirk's church, St. Bridget's. The fund has been used to help former and new employees with basic needs, not including the food bank. Ouderkirk said organizers have been spending about $90,000 per month from the fund. It is nearly empty, the priest said, despite hundreds of thousands of donated dollars from people around the country, including Jewish congregations concerned about the plight of people who worked at the nation's largest kosher meat plant.

At the time of the request, Agriprocessors' leaders said they would consider donating to the fund. Abrahams acknowledged last week that they have not made such a donation, but he said they have helped people in other ways.

(Where's the beef, Abrahams?)

[JewishCynic]

Best line in the YU transgender story is the quote from R. Moshe Tendler:

"He's a person who represents a kind of amorality which runs counter to everything Yeshiva University stands for. "

Hmm, couldn't that statement be applied to some members of your family...

[Rachel Batya]

--My personal question would be whether it wasn't possible or even halachic to refine the slaughter so that one cut cause a bleed out leading to quick loss of consciousness.--

Yes, that is exactly how it is supposed to work. The best scenario is to have the animal calm and upright in an ASPCA pen or something similar, because the bleed out is faster and a calmer animal becomes insensible more quickly. A shochet should be able to sever the carotids with a single stroke. Here are Dr. Grandin's observations of shechittah done correctly:

"[T]he animals had little or no reaction to the throat cut. There was a slight flinch when the blade first touched the throat..There was no further reaction as the cut proceeded. Both carotids were severed in all animals. Some animals in the modified ASPCA pen were held so loosely by the head holder and rear pusher gate that they could have easily pulled away from the knife...

After the cut the chin lift was lowered, the animal either immediately collapsed or it looked around like a normal alert animal. Within 5 to 60 seconds, the animals went into a hypoxic spasm and sensibility appeared to be lost...Calm cattle collapsed more quickly and appeared to have a more rapid onset of insensibility."

This is *not* how it is done at Agri--the animal is restrained upside down, so bleed out is slower. The animal is not as calm as it would be standing upright in a gently held position, so it does not become insensible as quickly.

It's never pretty to watch an animal being shechted, even in the best circumnstance, but it's absolutely horrible to see what happens on the PETA video.

Dr. Grandin's whole essay is available at http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html

[Chaim Yankel]

Paul - There is such a shechita. Most kosher slaughter is done while the steer is standing (actually raised off the ground by a hoist, so it doesn't fall onto the shochet).

When the cut is done, blood rushes out of the steers brain much faster than the Agri "upside down" method and the animal is unconscious significantly sooner than the "Munachas" method. Gravity helps.

[Yochanan Lavie]

++the corrupt Orthodox establish would pull their hechsher++

It's an Orthodox hechsher NOW

It's not "Orthodox" enough for many. Despite the fact that they is nothing wrong with it, many frum Jews refuse to eat it, either because it's not Glatt, or due to past problems (that have been cleared up).

Furthermore, the cartel-like atomosphere of the cash-root business would prevent real competition from ever happening. Hebrew National, with its monetary resources from parent company ConAgra, could probably blow the others out of the water, in both quality and price.

[Shmarya]

I have read that up to five electronic wounds to the skullpan and brain are allowed with a spike gun.…[etc.]

You mean a captive bolt gun. The newer ones have a tiny error rate, less than 2%, I think.

And USDA regs last time I check allowed for a 2nd shot, if necessary – not 5.

Viewed equally, shechita at Agriprocessors would have a much higher error rate. But, because the first 30 to 60 seconds of the kill process is protected by the religious exemption, nothing will be done at Agri to put the animal out of its misery until at least one minute has passed (in all likelihood, 2 to 3 minutes).

In non-Jewish slaughter, that second shot with the captive bolt happens a few seconds after the first.

In other words, standard non-Jewish slaughter is far more humane than Agriprocessors.

[Paul Freedman]

Rachel, Chaim, thank you very much for the clarification--that is the point to contest the procedure, I would think, that is, the availability of a quick alternative etc.

Shmarya, our disagreement over the captive bolt gun is that I think it more like a spike gun than a painless stunner--nothing anybody has yet posted is convincing to me that it is actually pain-free for the animal at the moment of firing--this is not a comparative statement vis a vis other slaughter but a comment that I think people are euphemizing the stress involved to the animal at the time of kill using this method.

Rachel and Chaim have concisely presented the case for AgriP to change its methods of kill, an upright hoist method permits efficient bleed-out and fully complies with letter and spirit of halachic requirement.

That said, I'm taking it that given their method (relatively inefficient) the use of the hook is not to torture the animal but to bleed it out, am I incorrect on this?

[Paul Freedman]

I'm sure the distinction between upright hoist and "upside down" has been cited previously--so thanks for the reminder...

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, our disagreement over the captive bolt gun is that I think it more like a spike gun than a painless stunner--nothing anybody has yet posted is convincing to me that it is actually pain-free for the animal at the moment of firing--this is not a comparative statement vis a vis other slaughter but a comment that I think people are euphemizing the stress involved to the animal at the time of kill using this method.

Look, I can't convince someone with an agenda.

You could do some research.

I spoke with Temple Grandin about this a four years ago, and with other experts.

That isn't good enough for you?

What can I do?

Unlike you, I've seen it done. The animal is unconscious in one to two seconds – 10X faster than the best shechita.

10X faster, Paul.

Of course, you can hold on to your romantic notions of holy shochtim and humane shechita, false as they are.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya--you are very quick to make accusations.

There is no agenda other than for people to take responsibility for their actions and understand what they are doing.

In rushing to make a negative statement you overlooked the key point and the key reservations.

I specifically said, oh, and in English, "this is not a comparative statement vis a vis other slaughter"--the statement was that getting spiked through the skull is not a painless procedure--for this reason one presumes, when doctors quietly recommend procedures to secure a "good death" for grandma they don't bring a "captive bolt gun" to the family.

The statement was not to say that this is not more "humane" than other slaughter but to suggest that it causes pain and suffering to the animal as it would cause pain and suffering to your grandma until she lost consciousness.

This is not upper level trig here.

Maybe there is evidence, objective evidence that being dispatched by electric bolt is so instantaneous that there is no suffering from the trauma inflicted.

Maybe there isn't.

I haven't had a spike bisect my skull but I have been hit in the head and it was uncomfortable.

[Paul Freedman]

One thousand one .... one thousand two ...

[Paul Freedman]

It was Dr. Grandin, incidentally who appears to be approving the humaneness of kosher slaughter in the quote presented by Rachel--but then I wasn't commenting on relative pain but the possible distinction between being efficiently murdered and anesthetized for the animal under the best of circumstances.

[Shmarya]

The statement was not to say that this is not more "humane" than other slaughter but to suggest that it causes pain and suffering to the animal as it would cause pain and suffering to your grandma until she lost consciousness.…Maybe there is evidence, objective evidence that being dispatched by electric bolt is so instantaneous that there is no suffering from the trauma inflicted.

1. If someone, God forbid, did that to your grandmother she'd be dead within a second or two, at most.

2. Yes – surprise, surprise, surprise – there is evidence. Try wandering around Temple Grandin's website for awhile. You'll find some of it there.

[Paul Freedman]

well, if so, and I'll take a look and try to find that evidence, we know there is also evidence here from Dr. Grandin *herself* that kosher slaughter is SO PAINLESS THE ANIMAL DOESN"T EVEN PULL AWAY FROM THE BLADE

[Paul Freedman]

eh?

[Shmarya]

well, if so, and I'll take a look and try to find that evidence, we know there is also evidence here from Dr. Grandin *herself* that kosher slaughter is SO PAINLESS THE ANIMAL DOESN"T EVEN PULL AWAY FROM THE BLADE

That is N-O-T the kosher slaughter done at Agriprocessors or at any South American or Israeli kosher slaughter.

eh?

Go learn.

[Paul Freedman]

OK. Dr. Grandin makes the assertion that captive bolt is a painless and instantaneous procedure for killing an animal.

"A captive bolt stunning gun kills the animal and reduces it instantly unconscious without causing pain. A captive bolt gun has a steel bolt that is powered by either compressed air or a blank cartridge. The bolt is driven into the animal's brain. It has the same effect on the animal as a firearm with a live bullet. After the animal is shot the bolt retracts and is reset for the next animal. A captive bolt gun is safer than a firearm.
There have been some questions about whether or not a captive bolt actaully kills an animal. Practical experience in slaughter plants indicates that cattle shot correctly with a penetrating captive bolt have irreversible damage to their brain and they will not revive. If a non-penetrating captive bolt is used the animal may revive unless it is bled promptly."

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya: your condemnation of my "romantic notions" condemned all kosher slaughter--Rachel brought that quote in condemnation of AgriP as I did note:

For your brief of the painless animal experience via bolt:

Neville Gregory​‌
South Australian Research and Development Institute, Flaxley, South Australia, Australia
Frank Shaw​‌
Food Science Australia, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia

Abattoirs commonly use penetrating captive bolt pistols to stun cattle. Humane slaughter requires that an animal immediately becomes unconscious and does not regain consciousness. In this review we consider the concepts of concussion, unconsciousness, and return to consciousness. We conclude that an animal effectively stunned with a penetrating captive bolt pistol, as indicated by the presence of certain signs and the absence of others, has little possibility of brain function returning.

---

my objection to assuming this is painless is intuitive deep in my bones not ideological

[Yochanan Lavie]

"That is N-O-T the kosher slaughter done at Agriprocessors or at any South American or Israeli kosher slaughter."

What about elsewhere? Not a rhetorical question. If you eat kosher and cannot or will not become a vegan, what do you do?

There is no "nice" way to kill an animal, but I don't believe schechita is worse than the other methods when done correctly, w/o shackle and hoist or second cut, etc.

[Paul Freedman]

Maybe Rachel or Chaim or Dr. Grandin herself or Shmarya have information as to which kosher producers use the upright method and the most efficient/humane methods of kosher slaughter

[Paul Freedman]

I'm going to stop monopolizing blog space, here is quoatation from the website suggested by Rachel indicating that conscientious shochet procedures--proper restraint, sharp knife, quick expert cuts--can minimize the pain and the period of consciousness of the animal which is however variable--:

"he details spelled out in Jewish law concerning the design of the knife and the cutting method appear to be important in preventing the animal from reacting to the cut. The knife must be razor sharp and free of nicks. It is shaped like a straight razor and it must be twice the width of the animal's neck. The cut must be made without hesitation or delay. It is also prohibited for the incision to close back over the knife during the cut. This is called "halagramah" (digging) (Epstein, 1948). The prohibition against digging appears to be important in reducing the animal's reaction to the cut. Ritual slaughtermen must be trained in knife sharpening. Shochets have been observed using a dull knife. They carefully obeyed the religious requirements of having a smooth, nick-free knife, but they had failed to keep it sharp. Observations of Halal cattle slaughter without stunning done by a Muslim slaughterman with a large, curved skinning knife resulted in multiple hacking cuts. Sometimes there was a vigorous reaction from the animal.

Further observations of kosher slaughter conducted in a poorly designed holder, i.e., one which allowed the incision to close back over the knife during the cut, resulted in vigorous reactions from the cattle during the cut. The animals kicked violently, twisted sideways, and shook the restraining device. Cattle which entered the poorly designed head holder in an already excited, agitated state had a more vigorous reaction to the throat cut than calm animals. These observations indicated that head holding devices must be designed so that the incision is held open during and immediately after the cut. Occasionally, a very wild, agitated animal went into a spasm which resembled an epileptic seizure immediately after the cut. This almost never occurred in calm cattle.

Time to loss of consciousness

Scientific researchers agree that sheep lose consciousness within 2 to l5 seconds after both carotid arteries are cut (Nangeroni and Kennett, 1963; Gregory and Wotton, 1984; Blackmore, 1984). However, studies with cattle and calves indicate that most animals lose consciousness rapidly, however, some animals may have a period of prolonged sensibility (Blackwore, 1984; Daly et al, 1988) that lasts for over a minute. Other studies with bovines also indicate that the time required for them to become unconscious is more variable than for sheep and goats (Munk et al., 1976; Gregory and Wotten, 1984). The differences between cattle and sheep can be explained by differences in the anatomy of their blood vessels.

Observations by the first author of both calf and cattle slaughter indicate that problems with prolonged consciousness can be corrected. When a shochet uses a rapid cutting stroke, 95% of the calves collapse almost immediately (Grandin 1987). When a slower, less decisive stroke was used, there was an increased incidence of prolonged sensibility. Approximately 30% of the calves cut with a slow knife stroke had a righting reflex and retained the ability to walk for up to 30 seconds."

[HLS]

Paul Freedman wrote: "That said, I'm taking it that given their method (relatively inefficient) the use of the hook is not to torture the animal but to bleed it out, am I incorrect on this?"

Yes, but it's not done to reduce the time of consciousness or to decrease suffering. Rabbi Genack of the OU has stated that Agri's second cut is done to reduce "blood splash," which is a meat marketing issue, not a humane or religious issue. (http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/setting_the_record_straight_on_kosher_slaughter, 3rd paragraph)

Dr. Grandin has done research showing that blood splash reduction can be achieved without the use of a second cut. (http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.box.variables.time.lose.sensibility.html)

[HLS]

The OU link in the previous post should read: http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/setting_the_record_straight_on_kosher_slaughter

[HLS]

Link keeps getting cut off--the end should read "...straight_on_kosher_slaughter"

[Paul Freedman]

HLS: I appreciate your response that brought into focus for me the argument Shmarya has most likely been highlighting and that I didn't follow--the link was very helpful and explained for me the relation of the second cut (and its reason) to the problem of error rate and sustained consciousness of the slaughter-animal, whose remaining in consciousness renders it conscious of suffering caused by the second cuts, while the second cuts themselves are not intended to terminate that consciousness or suffering--from the fourth paragraph:

"In the overwhelming number of cases the animal is insensate at that time. However and inevitably, particularly when it is considered that 18,000 cattle were slaughtered during the seven-week period when the video was shot, there was a tiny percentage of animals whose carotid arteries were not completely severed so they were not completely unconscious. Although this is very infrequent, the removal of the trachea immediately after the shechita has now been discontinued"

[Michael Croland]

My apologies if you mentioned this in one of your posts and I just didn't see it (I'm trying to keep up!), but I wanted to make sure this didn't slip through the cracks.

The Des Moines Register (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080906/BUSINESS/809060314/1001/NEWS) reported:

"Federal regulations bar workers performing kosher slaughter from making the second cut unless a rabbi is watching.

"Agriculture Department inspectors followed up on the video and determined that a worker had violated the regulation and issued the citation, known as a 'noncompliance record,' said Amanda Eamich, a spokeswoman for USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service."