What The Rabbis Did In Postville

I'm told this is how the Agriprocessors-paid junket to Postville worked.

The rabbis – all hand-picked by Agriprocessors, its paid consultants or supporters – were given a guided tour of the plant by a Rubashkin. Then they were given access and told to go anywhere in the plant on their own and look at anything they wanted to.

This assured the rabbis that the plant is, in fact kosher – at least as far as the technical aspects of the meat produced.

After that, rabbis met with Jim Martin, Agriprocessors "compliance officer," and Agriprocessors new safety consultant. Martin blamed recent employee related issues (i.e., the homeless workers debacle) on a Texas staffing firm (presumably Bravo), and said the firms the company now works with all use the e-Verify system so all new workers are presumably legal.

At the intercession of locals, the rabbis were offered an off-trip side visit to St. Paul's Lutheran Church to meet (in a side room) with former Agriprocessors workers and the people who have been feeding, housing and caring for them for 2 1/2 months.

The vast majority of the rabbis refused that offer and did not meet with these former workers or those who care for them.

In the end, four rabbis met with two representatives of St. Bridget's, the Catholic Church coordinating food, housing and medical care for former (and even current) Agriprocessors workers.

UPDATE 2: No former or current workers were present. I'm told the two invited rabbis refused to meet with former workers or with current workers outside of Agriprocessors grounds.

UPDATE 1: state of the Jews' claim, posted below, that only two rabbis were invited because no one knew for sure who was on the trip is only partially true.

It is true only two rabbis were invited. Both were chosen because their participation was already public last week. Obviously, one of those rabbis was Pesach Lerner, the EVP of Young Israel.

Lerner and the other rabbi "invited" all other rabbis to attend, knowing full well to attend, most would have to miss their flights back home. Only two of those agreed, both of who probably drove to Postville so the delay made no significant difference.

Lerner and three other rabbis did go to that meeting. What they heard confirms much of what has been posted here over the past 2 1/2 months.

But knowing with relative certainty the composition of that small group, I can bet you you won't hear much about those abuses from them, even though those rabbis heard about empty paychecks with huge deductions taken for rent, of abuses and degradations, of forced unpaid overtime, of child labor, of a dangerous workplace and no safety training or protective gear, and other items from the litany of abuses known as Agriprocessors.

At least one of these rabbis thinks the Rubashkin family can "make it up" to these former workers.

But "making it up" involves Rubashkins paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars in unpaid overtime, sick leave, breaks and vacation pay – something the Rubashkins will certainly refuse to do – and it also involves paying the local food shelf and other organizations a serious chunk of money to make up for the losses taken by feeding, housing, clothing and nursing former and current Agriprocessors workers.

Past that, it is nearly impossible logistically to make this type of restitution, even when a company is willing and trustworthy – and Agriprocessors is neither.

All this begs a question.

These worker abuses were clearly widespread. They involve breaking many US laws and several halakhot, Jewish laws, as well. These abuses were systemic and took place continually over a period of years.

How can the kashrut of Agriprocessors be trusted when its owners and managers are criminals in the eyes of secular and Jewish law?

If the answer to that question is. "We trust the supervising rabbis – Weissmandal, the OU, Crown Heights Beis Din, etc.," how can that trust still remain?

These supervising rabbis ignored or simply failed to notice 13 year old workers. The failed to notice employees who were refused breaks, who were made to work forced unpaid overtime, who were constantly threatened and berated by supervisors, and who had no safety equipment.

It was as if clear violations of US and Jewish law did not matter to these supervising rabbis, as long as those violations did not effect the technical kosher status of the meat.

Rabbis like these cannot be trusted for anything. Their blind eyes can just as easily be turned to mislabeled product and salting times, as well.

I once worked a kosher processing plant as a mashgiach. The plant made hot dogs, kishke, bologna, and other deli products.

The USDA inspectors repeatedly warned employees not to pick up raw meat that had fallen from the production line and put it back into production. I did the same.

For the USDA, it was a health issue. For me, it was a kashrut issue. I did not want employees to tamper with a system that had its entry point closely supervised but its long middle much less so. And I also saw the open violation of USDA regulations as an indication of how employees (and management) treated kosher regulations when the mashgichim and rabbis were not close by.

But the Rav HaMachshir, the man whose name was on those deli meats, disagreed. His representative told me the Rav HaMachshir saw no difficulties when employees disregarded or flaunted USDA regulations. The Rav HaMachshir did not much care for the idea that nothing should be added by an employee to the production line except at its well supervised entry point, or much farther down the line where spices were added. According to his representative, the Rav HaMachshir felt that level of control was unnecessary.

I pointed out that it was just as easy for a worker to take a piece of meat that fell off a salting combo and toss it onto the line, still in its salt, or, for that matter, a piece of never-salted meat onto the line and into a salami.

That point, true as it was, was lost on the Rav HaMachshir. (Presumably this was so because any such piece would be battel, negated, by the majority.)

Also lost on the Rav HaMachshir was the point that accustoming workers to follow rules is important. This rabbi also did not grasp the idea that turning a blind eye to violations of US law and regulation was a corrosive thing, both for workers and for on-site mashgichim and rabbis.

Morality and ethics were not Rav HaMachshir's strong suits.

The Rav HaMachshir was a vice president of Agudath HaRabbonim when Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was its president.

This type of moral compartmentalization, the idea that salting times are sacrosanct while a worker's amputated hand is not, is something wholly new in Judaism, something more revolutionary than any of the reforms pushed for by the early Reform movement or by the Conservative Movement through much of the 1950s. It turns halakha on its head.

And that should make the meat produced by Agriprocessors as treife as a Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato sandwich.

Many Jews know this instinctively. Orthodoxy, forever lost in minutia, does not.

Comments

[critical_minyan]

shmarya,
I agree wholly with this post. Kosher meat production, and many other parts of halachic behavioral guidelines, has lost its ethical soul, instead focusing on traditional minutia. There has to be a new middle ground in which tradition is kept and the highest possible ethics are strived for.
It seems like Getzel Rubashkin is now the spokesperson for Rubashkin. I think you should prepare a code of ethics for him and his family to sign. If they sign it, I will go back to eating their products. If they don't, I will continue my personal boycott.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Q: Why does the torah forbid adultery?
A: Because it leads to mixed dancing.

[Shmarya]

Without complete transparency and third-party unannounced inspections, nothing the Rubashkin family promises matters.

[rebitzman]

++It seems like Getzel Rubashkin is now the spokesperson for Rubashkin. ++

I seriously doubt it.

++I think you should prepare a code of ethics for him and his family to sign.++

Not a bad idea - if the ethical requests are reasonable by Jewish standards (such as "no 13 year old workers" or "legal workers only" or "for $100 a week you get the WHOLE room - alone" or "no human pieces in the salami") why would Rubashkin refuse to sign?

[rebitzman]

++Without complete transparency and third-party unannounced inspections,++

The first ain't happening - not in ANY business in this country (because there ARE aspects of any business that would give a competitor an advantage if they knew AND there are financial details that are simply none of our business) - the question for the second half is "who will the third party be?".

Give me the second half - I'm good.

[Shmarya]

Not a bad idea - if the ethical requests are reasonable by Jewish standards (such as "no 13 year old workers" or "legal workers only" or "for $100 a week you get the WHOLE room - alone" or "no human pieces in the salami") why would Rubashkin refuse to sign?

Again, and this is a rather simple thought, without complete transparency and third-party unannounced inspections, nothing the Rubashkin family promises matters.

[rebitzman]

PS - assuming they (Rubashkin) PASS the 3rd party inspections.

[rebitzman]

++nothing the Rubashkin family promises matters.++

Keep reading, Scott. I rather think we're in agreement.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The same type of rabbis who look the other way about 13 year kids on the line had a conniption about mixed dancing on the Glatt Yacht. That was the point of my joke.

[critical_minyan]

shmarya,
is the family prepared to sign a paper offering complete transparency and third-party inspections?
Getzel is posting a lot now on your blog, is he prepared to sign a code of ethics and open up his "kosher" slaughterhouse, to real inspections or is he spouting empty words?

[state of the Jews]

Four Rabbis met with two representatives of St. Bridget's last Thursday. Two of the Rabbis had been explicitly invited and they brought along two others. All Rabbis on the Rubashkin sponsored junket were not contacted because at the time no one knew who they were. As reported elswhere, an offer to meet with past and present workers at a neutral location where workers would feel safe to express themselves, was rejected. The meeting took place at St. Paul's Lutheran Church (not in the sanctuary). Other venues, including St. Bridget's were occupied. The names of the participants and the details of the conversation remain confidential - and appropriately so.

[Shmarya]

The first ain't happening - not in ANY business in this country (because there ARE aspects of any business that would give a competitor an advantage if they knew AND there are financial details that are simply none of our business) -

Then there is no way to trust the Rubashkins.

People who have done the wrongs the Rubashkins have done simply cannot be trusted again.

Complete transparency and third party unannounced inspections must be put in place.

[Anonymous]

The rabbis – all hand-picked by Agriprocessors, its paid consultants or supporters – were given a guided tour of the plant by a Rubashkin.

This is just not true. Rabbi Davis from Florida doesn't fit into any of these categories.

He is the chairman of the local Vaad in
Florida and is beholden to no one.

He is not Chabad. Not Agri. He is the Rov of a large Young Israel.

If you can't even get the opening line correct, what hope is there for the rest of your article.

[Shmarya]

Not too bright, are you?

Young Israel has been very open in its support of Agriprocessors and Pesach Lerner refused to set up meeting in Postville with former and current Agri workers off site in a safe location.

Davis may be a good guy – but he was HANDPICKED BY AGRIPROCESSORS SUPPORTERS.

Perhaps you should spend some time learning to read.

[rebitzman]

++

The first ain't happening - not in ANY business in this country (because there ARE aspects of any business that would give a competitor an advantage if they knew AND there are financial details that are simply none of our business) ++

I'm curious - why did you copy and respond to THIS part of what I wrote - and ignore the rest?

++Then there is no way to trust the Rubashkins.++

First - this rather implies that you don't WANT a solution (but I know better). The fact is - what I suggested off your initial idea was that "transparency" has to be filtered through the eyes of a trusted oversight group, but that the transparency can't (and should not be) extended to anyone who is curious.

We have no more right to view Rubashkin's Marketing strategies and internal financial information than we do viewing the same for a Fortune 100 company (plug one in).

[1244]

and the whining, spinning, and crying are braking new barriers. lets all cry together as rubashkin is ruining the world... one, two, three - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

do you feel any better now...

if you don't - try again - it is alot cheaper than therapy

[Anonymous]

Not too bright, are you?

Maybe I'm not as bring as you.
But I know Rabbi Davis and you don't.

Just because he is the Rabbi of a Young Israel, does not mean he agrees with the National office.

This may come as a shock to you but some rabbis actually have a independent mind.

Davis has always been his own man in Kashrut in Florida.

You don't know him at all. So shut up about him.

[Shmarya]

We have no more right to view Rubashkin's Marketing strategies and internal financial information than we do viewing the same for a Fortune 100 company (plug one in).

Wrong.

If Agriprocessors wants to sell KOSHER meat to the JEWISH community, it has to be fully transparent. It has a track record of lies, deceit, and abuses like none other.

To overcome that, the only option is full transparency.

If Agriprocessors cannot deliver that then the proper response to the company and the Rubashkins is to buy your meat elsewhere.

[Shmarya]

Davis has always been his own man in Kashrut in Florida.

You don't know him at all. So shut up about him.

All I said about him is that he was handpicked by supporters of Agriprocessors – which is TRUE.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I am not a spokesman. If I was I would hardly be focusing my efforts here, no offense.

I don't think anyone reading this blog believes they are reading balanced reporting, but I would again mention that the Congressional Caucus declined an invite to meet with the company, a mirror image of what Shmarya is so mockingly portraying here, and yet he has still not noted that, a piece of information which would be considered quite a newsworthy scoop in balanced reporting.

There are third parties that audit the plant in addition to the USDA and OSHA. I don't know which come unannounced but I believe OSHA does.

Rebitzman: I will post in more detail on the rental thread, but I would inform you that there are new workers who have rented entire houses - an option available to all and considerably cheaper than $100 a week for a room. For example, a 2-bedroom house that is being rented for $475 a month. A 3-bedroom for $575.

[rebitzman]

++Rebitzman: I will post in more detail on the rental thread, but I would inform you that there are new workers who have rented entire houses - an option available to all and considerably cheaper than $100 a week for a room. For example, a 2-bedroom house that is being rented for $475 a month. A 3-bedroom for $575.++

Well then.....

....if you are already COMPLYING with everything being discussed - then OBVIOUSLY you would have no objections to random 3rd party inspections (3rd party to be agreed upon by both "sides" of the issue).

Doesn't HAVE to be Heksher Tzedek - but that DOES seem logical.

[Shmarya]

There are third parties that audit the plant in addition to the USDA and OSHA. I don't know which come unannounced but I believe OSHA does.

They have to come back with search warrants because your family refuses to let them in.

[rebitzman]

++Wrong.++

Why?

GM wants to sell cars to everyone in this country - THEY don't have to be that transparent. Citibank wants to be everyone's bank - but they don't have to be so transparent. Exxon ...............

Why is Rubashkin to be held to a higher corporate standard than any other corporation in this country INCLUDING kosher food providers?

Not rational, Scott, and not at all reasonable.

[steve]

Shmarya,

Your post is right on the money. Complete transparency
and allowing unannounced third
party visits were two of the points I had challenged Getzel on. Considering the scandals and abuse that have taken place under his "supervision", even if they agree to all of this, can Weissmandel ever be trusted again as a rav hamachsir? Personally, I think his removal is the number one prerequisite. The new RH must be chosen by an impartial third party. Your thoughts?

[state of the Jews]

The Rubashkin's could go a long way toward satisfying health and safety complaints if they would allow unannounced OSHA inspections. Information from such visits remains confidential unless there are major health and safety violations which become available through Freedom of Information inquries. However, Freedom of Information inquries are not instantaneous and the data is usually quite old before the public can access it.
In other words, the worst thing that would happen if Agri agreed to unannounced visits is that Agri would have to come into compliance, thus negating the need for a Compliance Officer.
Lubinsky is quoted in the Jewish Press as having said that the "personas de la bracletas" (people with GPS traking devices on the ankles) pay no rent in Rubashkin owned properties. None of the people I have met in Postville say this is true. Some pay a reduced rent (perhaps 75% of the original rent) and there is some pressure to increase rent back to the original figure.
Rubashkin has to my knowledged made three contributions of meat to his former workers to help them. The first was just after the raid when he went to St. Bridget's with meat. The second time occured after the intervention of a Conservative Rabbi who requested that he make a food donation to assist these poor people. The third time occurred just before the July 27th immigration march. when Ron Wahls went around to the apartments giving out product with a request/threat that former workers should not participate in the march.

[Shmarya]

Your post is right on the money. Complete transparency
and allowing unannounced third
party visits were two of the points I had challenged Getzel on. Considering the scandals and abuse that have taken place under his "supervision", even if they agree to all of this, can Weissmandel ever be trusted again as a rav hamachsir? Personally, I think his removal is the number one prerequisite. The new RH must be chosen by an impartial third party. Your thoughts?

I agree. But I have no idea who should replace him. I don't see transparent, honest rabbis in the kosher food supervision business.

[rebitzman]

++Not rational, Scott, and not at all reasonable.++

But you know what WOULD be reasonable (albeit - not overly rational) - if Rubashkin would include someone openly opposed to them in the process. Someone they detest - someone they have shunned - someone they perceive as having turned their back on them in the past.

If Rubashkin could convince HIM they were on the up an up and are making changes - it would go miles toward convincing over half of their consumers that they were in fact sincere and actually implementing changes.

But where do we find such a man?

[Shmarya]

Why?

GM wants to sell cars to everyone in this country - THEY don't have to be that transparent. Citibank wants to be everyone's bank - but they don't have to be so transparent. Exxon ...............

Why is Rubashkin to be held to a higher corporate standard than any other corporation in this country INCLUDING kosher food providers?

Because Rubashkin is trying to sell KOSHER product to the JEWISH community, and this community has the right to demand complete transparency are a prerequisite to allow Rubashkin to sell to it.

[steve]

Shmarya,

You're probably right. That's why if the owner of a company is corrupt and dishonest, it is difficult to ever trust that the food he is producing is kosher, even with the most reputable RH and round the clock mashgichim. My original assumption was that there is no takkana for this company and it must be shut down. However, one always tries to hold out hope that they will learn from their past mistakes and sincerely make the necessary changes to regain the public trust. The kashrus business in general needs a complete overhaul and having dishonest business owners only compounds the problem.

[rebitzman]

++Because Rubashkin is trying to sell KOSHER product to the JEWISH community,++

And?

You may think you have a point, Scott - but in fact you do not. Hebrew National, Empire......NONE of these places are so transparent as you are demanding - and each would get downright nasty were you to suggest it REGARDLESS the circumstances.

Our right to transparency filters through the groups that supervise Kashrus.

Name of couple that you personally approve of (at last count there were several hundred in this country) and I will join you in demanding that they be brought into the game.

THAT's how it works - your way would appease no one in the long run because it would simply serve to destroy the company - and it would destroy ANY company that so agreed.

Of course, if destruction IS the goal......

[steve]

Rebitzman,

The majority of the meat sold by Rubashkin is non-kosher. Empire and HN are not in that business. The only way the kosher consuming public can be rest assured that the meat is labeled properly is by full transparency and unannounced visits. There is too much of a financial incentive for Rubashkin to label the non-kosher as "kosher". Their track record of scandals and corruption and their total lack of business ethics casts this long shadow of suspicion. The only way they can ever escape this shadow is by what we are suggesting in terms of corrective actions.

[critical_minyan]

shmarya,
which orthodox rabbis would you trust as third party inspectors?
can you recommend some rabbis who you think would be impartial and who is not a Nogea B'davar.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

How can the kashrut of Agriprocessors be trusted when its owners and managers are criminals in the eyes of secular and Jewish law?

The Tanya teaches that goyim are basically animals. So, what's the problem? It's like saying that it's possible for a Jew to owe money to a steer.

[rebitzman]

++The majority of the meat sold by Rubashkin is non-kosher.++

Yes - I know. One of the reasons that the local market here can afford to sell the kosher product is because it buys a poo load of the unkosher.

++The only way the kosher consuming public can be rest assured that the meat is labeled properly is by full transparency and unannounced visits.++

How does exposing their internal financials, marketing strategies, ....... make my burger any more kosher?

++unannounced visits.++

The current supervision IS allowed unannounced visits. How would you strengthen that further.

++There is too much of a financial incentive for Rubashkin to label the non-kosher as "kosher".++

You have evidence of this happening? please share it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Holidays in Rubbishland (with apologies to "Holidays in the Sun" by the Sex Pistols)

A cheap holiday in other people's misery!

I don't wanna disinfect in the sun[light] I wanna go to new Rubbishcan I wanna see some
Spinmeistery cause now I got a reasonable economy

Now I got a reason, now I got a reason now I got a reason and I'm still faking
Now I got a reason now I got reason to be faking the Postville wall

Sensurround sound in a two inch wall, well I wasn't waiting for the Conservatives to call
I didn't ask for sunshine and I got scrutiny I'm looking at the shills
And they're covering for me

Now I got a reason, now I got a reason now I got a reason and I'm still debating
Now I got a reason, now I got a reason to be stalling the Postville wall

Well they're working all night and they're working all day. Tzedek has a reason to
Be here by default; but now I gotta see them it's kosher treason and I'm waiting at
The Postville wall

Gotta go over the Postville wall I don't understand ICE.... I gotta go over the
Wall I dont understand the law at all....

Mysophobia there's too much to annoy ya there's too many [skeletons in] closets I went in
Before and now I gotta plea bargain, it's a real reason to be erecting the Postville wall

Juan's gotta go over the Postville wall I don't understand it.... He gotta go over the
Wall; I don't understand, his ID looks fine...

Please don't be waiting for me [when I'm in jail]

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Nigritude Ultramarine, that is an offensive and false statement. The Tanya makes no such statement. It is a well-known Sefer and it is unwise to make false statements about its contents.

[John K. Diamond]

Unless someone has behind the scenes information to the contrary, there is a very real probability that no Agri management and/or owners will go to court.

If this, G-d forbid, happens, all of the discussion so far on this thread is for naught.

It will business as usual and no one will be able to do anything about it.

[rebitzman]

++Nigritude Ultramarine, that is an offensive and false statement. ++

Perhaps he should make a partial apology. You know - until he can ascertain for fact that he was mistaken

Oh... but since he doesn't actually have a way to ever be absolutely SURE his statement is wrong - you might be waiting a while.

I mean....sure. He has YOUR word that he's wrong, and heck I know that he's wrong, but someone else TOLD him this, so......

You're right, Getzel. It's a lame argument. Perhaps EVERYONE should stop hiding behind it when they mis-speak?

[rebitzman]

++

Unless someone has behind the scenes information to the contrary, there is a very real probability that no Agri management and/or owners will go to court.

If this, G-d forbid, happens, all of the discussion so far on this thread is for naught.

It will business as usual and no one will be able to do anything about it.++

Well......

....unless you are suggesting that Federal authorities are n the pocket of the Rubashkins, the absence of prosecution would mean that there wasn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that they broke the law.

And while YOUR ultimate agenda might be to have the Rubashkins arrested and the plant shut down - I assure you it isn't mine.

What I want is a Rubashkins that treats all people (goyim - Conservative - Reform - suppliers - consumers - workers.........) with the same kavod they believe themselves worthy of.

There is not an issue with Rubashkins - not ONE that can't be addressed and changed. Tomorrow. Problem is - it would take real leadership, and I am not convinced that current leadership is capable of change.

They're going to have to find a way to be - because the facts on the ground are that HALF of their consumers have walked away from them, and won't be back until changes are made.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

The Tanya makes no such statement.

Well, maybe not the EXACT statement, but it does take a dim view of Goyishe souls in Chapter 6. Thanks to this "sefer" we know that goyishe souls (converts too) come from "lower" realms.

[C-G]

This has all gotten so ugly and I'm having trouble keeping up with what's relevant.

Getzel, let's start with you: Not a Rubashkin's spokesman? How so? You are on the record speaking to the press all over the place- you're talking to the NY Times, Iowa papers... You're a Rubashkin defending the family business. Even if I agreed with you, I'd say you were, at the very least, strongly biased and unwilling to challenge the (your) establishment. Say something that runs contrary to the party line and I'll reconsider. Until then, you're a spokesman.

To a beis din, your testimony would be highly suspect. Same here, kiddo. Show me *independent* proof (btw, a busload, a trainload, even, of YI reps would not be considered independent-- unless, maybe, if they were vegetarians and wrote for jcarrot, I guess...) or stop taking up so much comment space. It's getting old.

One more thing- I really like your glasses. Where did you get them?

Shmarya & Rebitzman- both of you have good points. Our faith in our co-religionists (hey, anyone here remember we're all Jews?) has been rattled and it's up to them to prove that they're worthy of regaining our trust. Transparency is a good start. It might not work so well for Microsoft, but Microsoft has only been accused of tearing the souls from corrupted people, not the tracheas from innocent cows.

I want proof (independently verified by an entirely unbiased entity) that Agriprocessors is on the up & up (about everything-- that includes kashrus, the environmental impact, workers' issues... I've left much out, but the list is soooo long) before I could give them the precious gift of my trust. Talk is cheap and bs is easy to come by. Especially in that part of Iowa.

Remember, boycott or not, I have the choice of whether to support this company-- and so do all of us. My mishna says a lot, but I can't find anything there saying I'm required to buy Getzel's family's stuff.

[steve]

What we mean by transparency is how the meat is produced, labeled and shipped. No kosher meat producer should get a blank check and not be subject to at least random unannounced inspections. Notice how they pass the buck. First MMW claims that he knows nothing about shipping and then Getzel refers you to MMW when he's asked about the labeling. We do have firsthand testimony that there has been date switching on the labels. Even the most upright and honest people should not be given such leeway. Kal vchomer the Rubashkins.

[critical_minyan]

shmarya, getzel,
can you agree upon a third party in the Rabbinate that you both find acceptable?
That third-party can do the inspections and then this issue can be mostly resolved.

[Shmarya]

Please.

There is no one in the rabbinate capable of making the inspections needed.

Third party independent unannounced audits from recognized companies is what is needed.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

C-G: I spoke to the press on ONE occasion. I clearly indicated that I am speaking my own words based on my own knowledge.

I am not in lockstep with company policy, and one example is my statement on this blog that the people impersonated by 5W deserve an apology, and I offered them my own personal expression of regret although I was in no way involved.

*grin* The glasses come from Crown Heights, corner of Kingston and Carroll.

N U: The Tanya does not take a "dim" view of gentiles souls. It posits a second soul that is unique to a Jew, which I believe enters a convert on proper conversion. It does not make any judgment as to good vs. bad.

Jews and gentiles are simply described as different. It is you who are using your opinion of what is good and bad to say that the Tanya's description amounts to a "dim view."

Add to your equation also, the Chassidic axiom that "that which is rooted higher will fall (manifest) lower."

This is the explanation as to why we are dependent for sustenance on elements that are lower on the totem pole such as animals, for example.

I find that rarely are things as simplistic as portrayed on this blog.

[rebitzman]

++Third party independent unannounced audits from recognized companies is what is needed.++

That would be......?

++There is no one in the rabbinate capable of making the inspections needed.++

Not even the HT committee?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

critical minyan: the established Hashgochos are meant to be that third-party. Someone brought up an arrangement where an inspection is done at restaurants in NY by an additional party with the agreement of the certifier.

If you are serious about your interest in this kind of setup I would suggest looking into this sort of arrangement for factories, although you won't get Shmarya's support, as he indicated.

[Shmarya]

++Because Rubashkin is trying to sell KOSHER product to the JEWISH community,++

And?

You may think you have a point, Scott - but in fact you do not. Hebrew National, Empire......NONE of these places are so transparent as you are demanding - and each would get downright nasty were you to suggest it REGARDLESS the circumstances.

Please.

1. Empire and Hebrew National do not sell non-kosher. Rubashkin does.

2. Hebrew National does not sell glatt, it only sells regular kosher. Rubashkin sells both.

3. Empire only sells poultry. Rubashkin sells beef and poultry.

You are very clearly interested in protecting Rubashkin, in keeping them in business.

My response to you is that our first concern has to be to the workers, people and animals Rubashkin abused.

We have no reason to trust Rubashkin anymore and many reasons not to.

The only way to overcome that is to have complete transparency with unannounced independent third party inspections from well qualified bonded inspectors.

That includes animal welfare, environmental, safety and employment issues – and it also involves kashrut.

While I can find companies to do all of the other inspections, I cannot think of a kosher supervision agency I would trust.

Ultimately, this leg of Rubashkin's verifiable complete transparency may have to left to chance.

[Jerome Soller]

I want to make a couple of points about Getzel Rubashkin.

Whether Getzel is actually writing the statements attributed to him (or as acting as a conduit for statements written by a PR firm or even his father), he is definitely allowing his name to be used. A few weeks ago, I met a member of the Rubashkin family in Salt Lake City (without knowing they were a member of the Rubashkin family when we discussed the Rubashkin issues, failedmessiah, and Shmarya - Getzel you probably know who this is). Anyway, that person defending their family was clearly acting as an individual (they did not even identify themselves as Rubashkin), and they have my great respect for doing so in a respectful fashion under difficult stresses of the recent events (even though I agree with much of what Shmarya is saying on this site).

However, Getzel, on the other hand, is approaching (not being approached by) the press and several blogs listing that he is a Rubashkin and has first-hand knowledge of the real issues under discussion. He is relying on his credibility as a Rubashkin that has seen things with his own eyes, and expects the reader to accept the credibility and honesty of his statements (over an anonymous person claiming to have first hand knowledge that supports Rubashkin or an anonymous person that accuses Agriprocessors of some illegal or immoral behavior). To me, that meets the definition of a spokesman. What makes him not a spokesman? Another way to look at this is "Who other than Getzel is acting as a spokesman for the press, newspapers, and blogs?"

Now, off to do laundry.

Jerome

[rebitzman]

++You are very clearly interested in protecting Rubashkin, in keeping them in business.++

Yep

++1. Empire and Hebrew National do not sell non-kosher. Rubashkin does.

2. Hebrew National does not sell glatt, it only sells regular kosher. Rubashkin sells both.

3. Empire only sells poultry. Rubashkin sells beef and poultry.++

I fail to see why this is relevant.

++The only way to overcome that is to have complete transparency with unannounced independent third party inspections from well qualified bonded inspectors.++

Disagree on the first point (because, as you have pointed out - I do want them to stay in business in an "improved" state), but AGAIN agree on the second and AGAIN ask....

Who do you have in mind?

++I cannot think of a kosher supervision agency I would trust.++

Of the couple hundred in this country - you can't think of a single one? That's quite a conspiracy you've found there.

[Shmarya]

++1. Empire and Hebrew National do not sell non-kosher. Rubashkin does.

2. Hebrew National does not sell glatt, it only sells regular kosher. Rubashkin sells both.

3. Empire only sells poultry. Rubashkin sells beef and poultry.++

I fail to see why this is relevant.

That's because you have no experience in the kosher meat business.

++I cannot think of a kosher supervision agency I would trust.++

Of the couple hundred in this country - you can't think of a single one? That's quite a conspiracy you've found there.

Cute. Your experience again is what?

Of those companies, perhaps ten have the ability to handle meat production. Most of those have already been involved with Rubashkin in some way.

[rebitzman]

++You are very clearly interested in protecting Rubashkin, in keeping them in business.++

Other than my open and clear statements to this effect - what evidence do you have to support this conclusion?

On the flip side - there are several people posting who just as openly want the plant shut down - period - no concern for the people of Postville - none at all for those who do keep kosher ($25 chickens anyone?) - no concern at all for the reality of the impact such a draconian result.

Oddly enough - the folks so professing are either A) Non kosher keeping Jews, or B) Vegetarians.

Shmayra - I in no way shape or form embrace or excuse the practices at the Rubashkins plant. Their meat is currently banned from my house - our synagogue and our community and I honor that ban (like I have a choice?) BECAUSE of what I consider to be SERIOUS ethical breakdowns.

[rebitzman]

++That's because you have no experience in the kosher meat business.++

You know this because.....?

[bernice]

My 2 cents.(Just to name 2 out of ......)
Rabbi MMW when confroted that Rubashkin is putting on the MMW Supreme label on non-designated Supreme, he shrugged his shoulders as he knows that's the system, label the product whatever the cutomer wants "it's all the same".

When the truckload of some 9000 chickens turned over...MMW & Getzels Agri had no problem labeling it as KAJ /OU kosher.

According to all of the Rabbis & the Code of Jewish Law "all of those involved in these or similliar ...are to be banned from ever selling any kosher product".

We would all hate to see that happen..but the Halacha is very clear..Sorry but our religion is not one of "pick and choose".

[rebitzman]

++Most of those have already been involved with Rubashkin in some way.++

There are several in Texas I would trust - and know for fact they have had bupkis to do with the Rubashkins (in that they formed to provide a local alternative TO the Rubashkins).

That said - we BOTH agree that here needs to be secular oversight as far as the business practice issues go. The USDA is already enforcing against the second cut or pulling of trachea from still living animals......WHO would you suggest?

[C-G]

"one example is my statement on this blog that the people impersonated by 5W deserve an apology"

Stepping in to apologize for your own hired PR firm- how deliciously ironic. But seriously, that's a pretty lame example.

[Shmarya]

On the flip side - there are several people posting who just as openly want the plant shut down - period - no concern for the people of Postville - none at all for those who do keep kosher ($25 chickens anyone?) - no concern at all for the reality of the impact such a draconian result.

It's far more likely the plant will be sold than shut down.

As for $25 chickens, you forget that Empire can increase production, and there are other suppliers as well.

While there may be short term shortages, the market will repair itself. And, with the DOJ actively investigating price fixing and collusion in the kosher meat industry, that market correction may actually lead to lower prices (albeit adjusted for higher fuel and feed costs and inflation).

[Shmarya]

There are several in Texas I would trust - and know for fact they have had bupkis to do with the Rubashkins (in that they formed to provide a local alternative TO the Rubashkins).

Rosenblatts. But it is small, and the supervision was set up for them by the Star-K, I believe.

That said - we BOTH agree that here needs to be secular oversight as far as the business practice issues go. The USDA is already enforcing against the second cut or pulling of trachea from still living animals......WHO would you suggest?

A similar throat-ripping procedure is being done at Rubashkin's Gordon, NE plant. PETA caught that on video last year. The USDA did not stop the line.

[rebitzman]

++The USDA did not stop the line.++

They have new regs that Rubashkin helped write - I have posted them several times since Friday. Got them after they were recently (VERY) distributed to the kosher plant here.

++Rosenblatts. ++

Perhaps - just outside Waco?

++But it is small, ++

So..., they can't grow?

++and the supervision was set up for them by the Star-K, I believe.++

Rubashkin might have a problem with Star K, but I assure you the Conservative Movement wouldn't. If Rubashkins wanted someone else's hecksher as well (say.....OU?) G-d bless them.

Aren't there one or two Satmar controlled heckshers wandering about as well? I believe they defended Rubashkins after the PETA video but don't see how that alone would disqualify them.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

C-G, as you yourself said, I am not hiding who I am. If you want to call that being a spokesman, you are welcome to. I'm sorry you did not like the example. You are welcome to continue reading and find more for yourself. I disagreed with the Glatt chicken thing until I found a justification, but of course I am ultimately defending the label.

Think what you will. I invite you to contact me, as I have invited others, if you would like to get a feeling as to who I am and exactly where I stand. Sorry, yidandahalf.

I maintain I am not a spokesman as I am not speaking for the company nor are my words theirs in any way. I do not blog on other blogs, aside for rare comments on articles, nor do I speak to newspapers. At least I haven't been. I am sorely tempted to, given the terrible PR.

[rebitzman]

++As for $25 chickens, you forget that Empire can increase production, and there are other suppliers as well.++

We say around here that when we get a fresh kosher chicken from Rubashkin, there is a another chicken in Postville still sitting Shiva when we sit down for Shabbes dinner.

When we eat an Empire chicken - there isn't a chicken anywhere still saying Kaddish.

Follow the supply chain from Empire to us and you'll KNOW why that isn't the best solution.

++And, with the DOJ actively investigating price fixing and collusion in the kosher meat industry,++

G-d bless the DOJ. We shall see what/if any impact that will make.

[Shmarya]

++The USDA did not stop the line.++

They have new regs that Rubashkin helped write - I have posted them several times since Friday. Got them after they were recently (VERY) distributed to the kosher plant here.

Those are not new regs. I posted then in 2005. They are from a HIKE manual used by line inspectors, and were written by the USDA – NOT by or with the help of Rubashkin.

Notwithstanding that HIKE scenario, the line was NOT stopped.

++As for $25 chickens, you forget that Empire can increase production, and there are other suppliers as well.++

We say around here that when we get a fresh kosher chicken from Rubashkin, there is a another chicken in Postville still sitting Shiva when we sit down for Shabbes dinner.

When we eat an Empire chicken - there isn't a chicken anywhere still saying Kaddish.

Follow the supply chain from Empire to us and you'll KNOW why that isn't the best solution.

This has to do with the price fixing and collusion investigation the DOJ is doing. It is not the result of free and open markets.

Aren't there one or two Satmar controlled heckshers wandering about as well? I believe they defended Rubashkins after the PETA video but don't see how that alone would disqualify them.

Yes, but they should be disqualified not only for supporting Rubashkin's animal torture, but for presiding over their own animal torture, as well.

[yidandahalf]

Satmars as well as Agri schecht in Uruguay using shackle and hoist.

[bernice]

DOJ still looking for Gittel in FL & Teichman in LA?

Agri in Uruguay shackle n hoist? what happened to their .....touting
"Only Schechita-moonachas"

[PS]

Agriprocessors' supplier in Uruguay (Colonia) uses a rotating (inverted) pen. Alle's supplier in Uruguay (the Las Piedras slaughterhouse) still uses shackle and hoist.

[Yekke]

The total answer: let us all become vegetarians. No Agri, no mashgiach, lower cost, and much healthier.

Yekke

[ybd]

"The total answer: let us all become vegetarians. No Agri, no mashgiach, lower cost, and much healthier. "

Actually, the only Kosher fish my mechuten will eat is Dagim Tahorim. No strawberries, no broccoli, no asparegus, no cauliflower, no water from the tap.

We did this to ourselves. Next - seperate meat and dairy garbage pails

[bernice]

Meat & dairy garbage pails is nothing new,rabbi Shain wrote about that a while back & he even included that you shouldn't pour hot dairy or meat into the sink for the same reason. He quoted a Reb Akiva Eiger somewhere.
No Spinach, No Crest toothpaste, No sweet N low, No Dr. Pepper, no hard drinks, including beer without a reliable kosher certification, no coffee & tea on airplanes plus tommorow is another day & he'll surprise you with something new.

[bernice]

At least Getzel realizes that Agri is not the place if you are looking for kosher.

Getzel is doing good on the other issues, he'll be going to the Olymics in China to defend China's human rights violations..

[Susan]

Shmarya, you may be interested in Dr. Michele Yehieli's www.iowahealthdisparities.org website. They have worked to provide health information to immigrants working in meatpacking plants and other locations in Iowa. Associated with the "Center for Immigrant Leadership and Integration" based out of University of Northern Iowa.

[Dominic]

Shmarya,

In the past, you have made some very kind, and open minded, comments about Catholics. Just wanted to say thank you.

I also thought you might enjoy looking over the blog of Rabbi Brant Rosen...
http://rabbibrant.com/

if you scroll down the page, look over his post called "Demanding Justice in Postville." He seems like a wonderful person (at least to me). Thanks again.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have a problem with buying from the St. Mary Chassidim not for kashrut reasons, but for ideological reasons. They spent a sum of money for a huge billboard on the BQE that thousands of motorists see every day denouncing Zionism. To me, buying from them is like buying Hallal from Achmadenijad.

The Tanya has been translated into English. Maybe we all should read it for ourselves (I have a copy but haven't read it yet). I only have heard 2nd hand, but I am very much against anti-goy stuff in general. We are all made b'tzelem Elohim.

Not that anyone cares, but I'm sick and tired of chumrot. Pretty soon there will be nothing left to eat, at all.

If Rubashkins can reform itself, that would be great. If not, the market will pick up the pieces. At any rate, I'm sure the plant would be sold if the Rubashkin family won't reform it. (Small R reform). I don't gleefully wait for businesses to fail, but in the grand scheme of things the market usually stabilizes itself. Meanwhile, cruelty to animals and workers must stop.

It is difficult enough to be a Jew w/o rabbis and others making life unbearable. Not that anyone cares.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Yochanan, the Rebbe Rayatz of Chabad once said, and I quote this often, that Rabbonim are to worry about others Gashmiyus and their own Ruchinyus not vice versa.

I am equally opposed to anti-Goy rhetoric and I find that people often confuse the differentiation between Jew and non-Jew which Judaism and Chassidus speak of with a feeling of superiority. I don't think an objective understanding of those sources bears that out though.

[bernice]

What the Rabbis did in Postville?
They coined the phrase "you can fool all the people........Especially when the price is right..The price of the Beef & poultry of course.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thank you for your response, Getzel. I have met Chabadniks who were not prejudiced, as well as some who were. People are people. I will read the Tanya and judge for myself what it really says.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

When discussing differences, people often assign a judgment to those differences, taking the position that one of the descriptions is "good" and the other is "bad."

One of the fascinating elements of Chassidus, to me, is how often it turns those judgments on their heads.

[Carol Ann Varley]

I am not surprised the Congressional Caucus declined a visit to Agri.

Congress wouldn't touch a religious issue with a 10 foot poleax.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Why is it a religious issue to engage Agriprocessors before drawing conclusions based on stories they heard from employees there? And why does Shmarya criticize Rabbis who visited Postville for not visiting the church, presumably to hear the other side of the story, yet ignore the fact that the Caucus did the same, in reverse. Although some of the Rabbis *did* meet the church reps.

[Shmarya]

I didn't cover the Latino Caucus visit at all.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

But seeing the affront to your sense of honor that the Rabbis committed by omitting the church leaders from their itinerary, I thought you would at least condemn the one-sided investigating of the Caucus as well, at least in the comment section. Why the imbalance? Injustice is injustice, no?

[Shmarya]

They have no control over the federal investigation or anything else.

On the other hand, those rabbis are shilling for your family, and are being used to encourage Jews to buy your meat.

And we have way too much evidence of worker abuse, animal abuse, environmental abuse, fraud and related sins to let that pass unnoticed.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

++They have no control over the federal investigation or anything else.++

And that exempts them from the need to hear both sides of the story, how?

[Anonymous Please]

In governmental inspection of meatpackers, most of the value of the inspection results from its being done by surprise. To avoid surprise inspections, some meatpackers bribe some inspectors for advance notice of when the inspection will begin. Bribes are paid for even small amounts of advance notice. It was fascinating to read that Agriprocessors knew days in advance when the kosher inspection would begin. About what percent of kosher inspections of meatpackers are done by surprise?

A few rabbis spoke with former Agriprocessors employees in a church. The conversation seemingly concerned the employees as people and as workers. Maybe it would have been a waste of time to ask the former employees questions about Agriprocessors compliance with kashruth.

[Anonymous Please]

In governmental inspection of meatpackers, most of the value of the inspection results from its being done by surprise. To avoid surprise inspections, some meatpackers bribe some inspectors for advance notice of when the inspection will begin. Bribes are paid for even small amounts of advance notice. It was fascinating to read that Agriprocessors knew days in advance when the kosher inspection would begin. About what percent of kosher inspections of meatpackers are done by surprise?

A few rabbis spoke with former Agriprocessors employees in a church. The conversation seemingly concerned the employees as people and as workers. Maybe it would have been a waste of time to ask the former employees questions about Agriprocessors compliance with kashruth.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Their is constant Kashrus supervision. I believe R' Weissmandl needs no invitation. I think what people on this blog mean when they speak of no surprise inspections are unannounced visits by independent certifications.