« Former Child Workers Describe Dangerous Work Conditions, Lack Of Training, No Age Checks | Main | UPDATED: Agriprocessors New Workers Exploited »

August 08, 2008

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Getzel Rubashkin

"I cannot take responsibility for getting you back," does not contradict "This would have been at the expense of Rubashkin."

As Rabbi Eliezrie said "On a personal note the flight that night was canceled, the one also the next morning from Dubuque. I had to drive 3 hours to Chicago and finally flew to LA at 2 PM arriving home an hour before Shabbos after fighting rush hour traffic in LA."

The financial responsibility for tickets does not ensure you will get back on time for Shabbos.

Jen

Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting? Ignoring all others and correcting one really doesn't prove much.

Taking The High Road


It seems to me that we are all barking up the wrong tree. Trying to fix and reform Agri is just not going to happen, period! Even if they do make a few changes here and there, once the storm passes they will be back to business as usual. Instead of wasting precious time and energy pointing out the faults of Agri, we must consolidate our resources and find another source of kosher meat. Agri is history. As the saying goes, Yeheyeh Lahem Asher Lahem, those that want to go down with the sinking ship named Agri have every right to do so. The rest of us must move on. Shmaryah, you did a teriffic job in pointing out the multiple flaws at Agri, but its come to a point where just LET IT BE. You have given Agri enough rope to strangle itself, let time do the job.

Shmarya

Getzel Rubashkin spins again.

1. Lerner never says "get you back for Shabbos."

What he says is "I can't take responsibility for getting you back."

2. Lerner was the trip organizer. All invitations, etc., went through him. When he says, "I can't take responsibility to get you back," It means, "You are on your own. I'm not making your arrangements or paying for them."

Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting? Ignoring all others and correcting one really doesn't prove much.

Getzel has never cared about the truth, Jen. He's a Rubashkin through and through.

Getzel Rubashkin

Shmarya,

Here you said:

++1. Dr. Grandin offered to go to Postville without charge (except for airfare and expenses) to assess the situation for the Rubashkins and make recommendations for changes to improve the slaughter process. That offer included working with the upside-down slaughter the Rubashkin's want to keep in order to sell their meat to Israel. The offer was refused.++

No mention of "conduct [...]every non-Orthodox school child knows to be wrong. And you disparaged Agri for not taking her up on it.

You also mentioned:

++9. Dr. Grandin went to Europe and inspected upside-down kosher slaughter using a rotating pen. The distress rate for the animals there was much lower than at Rubashkin's slaughterhouse.++

Visits presumably proposed under similar arrangements (travel and expenses paid), or even paid visits. No comment from you on the moral issues of such an arrangement, especially in light of the positive comparison.

You have also mentioned numerous times that Dr Grandin should be visiting unannounced, having heard from her that her travel and expenses are to be paid by the company.

And that is all morally OK. But now you seem to feel that if travel expenses are paid it is impossible to have a fair, impartial, and thorough investigation.

Care to explain?

Archie Bunker

This point that Shmarya raises is mentioned in sifrei halacha and has been systematically ignored by the OU at Rubashkin and elsewhere:

The question of a repeat offender. Agriprocessors and the Rubashkin family are repeat offenders, with long histories of criminal and illegal conduct.

Why should they be trusted now?

Getzel Rubashkin

++Getzel Rubashkin spins again.

1. Lerner never says "get you back for Shabbos."

What he says is "I can't take responsibility for getting you back."

2. Lerner was the trip organizer. All invitations, etc., went through him. When he says, "I can't take responsibility to get you back," It means, "You are on your own. I'm not making your arrangements or paying for them."++

You were not there to have made that distinction. I offered a simple and sensible explanation that makes sense given the two quotes. Your desire from them to be inherently contradictory does not make them so.

Archie Bunker

"Getzel has never cared about the truth"

In fairness, I think Getzel is being duped for the large part. It is also very difficult for someone in his position to believe all the horror stories are real.

Getzel Rubashkin

++Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting?++

The other issues raised in this post are that Shmarya disagrees with the group's priorities, that he disagrees with their exclusion of the UFCW which they felt would compromise their ability to have a constructive meeting and that he trusts the church people more on whether workers were invited.

He brought up the fact that travel expenses were paid, and I commented on that above.

Shmarya

Getzel Rubashkin writes:Here you said:

++1. Dr. Grandin offered to go to Postville without charge (except for airfare and expenses) to assess the situation for the Rubashkins and make recommendations for changes to improve the slaughter process. That offer included working with the upside-down slaughter the Rubashkin's want to keep in order to sell their meat to Israel. The offer was refused.++

No mention of "conduct [...]every non-Orthodox school child knows to be wrong. And you disparaged Agri for not taking her up on it.

You also mentioned:

++9. Dr. Grandin went to Europe and inspected upside-down kosher slaughter using a rotating pen. The distress rate for the animals there was much lower than at Rubashkin's slaughterhouse.++

Visits presumably proposed under similar arrangements (travel and expenses paid), or even paid visits. No comment from you on the moral issues of such an arrangement, especially in light of the positive comparison.

You have also mentioned numerous times that Dr Grandin should be visiting unannounced, having heard from her that her travel and expenses are to be paid by the company.

And that is all morally OK. But now you seem to feel that if travel expenses are paid it is impossible to have a fair, impartial, and thorough investigation.

Care to explain?It's very simple, Getzel – something any non-Orthodox school child would know.

Dr. Grandin would have been a paid consultant of Agriprocessors. She works under a contract that allows her to say what she thinks.

In other words, she flies in, takes money only for the cost of the flight, hotel, and food, does her job, and then tells the media what she thinks.

She is a trained professional with years of experience and a proven track record.

On the other hand, the rabbis pretended to be independent, did not disclose relationships with your family and Agriprocessors, and refused to meet with plant critics.

Some of them even have organizations that take donations from Agriprocessors and your family.

They were reps for Agriprocessors who tried to hide that fact.

Shmarya

You were not there to have made that distinction. I offered a simple and sensible explanation that makes sense given the two quotes. Your desire from them to be inherently contradictory does not make them so.

No, I wan't. But other were, Getzel. And what others have to say matches what I wrote, not your spin.

Yochanan Lavie

An interesting observation for those who don't believe in coincidences: Rabbi Eliezrie lists himself as the President, Rabbinical Council of Orange County,
Yorba Linda, Calif.

Yorba Linda is the birthplace and original hometown of President Richard "I'm not a crook" Nixon. As they sang in "Fiddler on the Roof:" "It may not mean a thing/ But then again it might."

(Yes, Nixon had his good points, like resupplying Israel in 1973).

state of the Jews

Getzel:

In order to organize a plant, the union has to ask for an NLRB monitored election.

When was the last time there was an NLRB election at the Agriprocessor facility in Postville?

Shabbat Shalom

Getzel Rubashkin

Eliezrie was there and had his say, which you are refuting based on anonymous "others" which mysteriously changed from singular to plural.

As you said "This is what my source says happened, as well. In other words, Eliezrie is wrong. "

Also, very weak distinction between the Rabbis and Dr. Grandin.

A consultant has a far greater relationship with the company than you allege the Rabbis have. She would be working for the company. She would be subject to losing that relationship. They would are not working for the company, and they are not risking the loss of that relationship by speaking their mind.

Yet you constantly accused them of being biased and pointed to the fact that travel expenses were paid, which turns out to be quite a normal thing which you have come across in the past.

Interesting that in your response the travel expenses argument was not used against the Rabbis anymore.

Getzel Rubashkin

state of the jews: I have no first hand information, but I am told the workers voted not to unionize. I don't know the details.

steve

Getzel,

Paying the rabbis' expenses is unethical. I know you do business with Walmart. Would Walmart allow you to pay the expenses for their buyer to come visit your facility? Would they allow you to buy their buyer lunch? I know for a fact that they don't even allow their buyers to accept a cup of coffee or a soda! Why? KI HASHOCHAD YEAVER EINEI CHACHAMIM!! Even the goyishe owners of Walmart understand that.

Paul Freedman

imo there are two issues--kashrus and intra-Orthodox relations and denominational jousting over who is holier-than-thou otoh and the legal ramifications of Idaho's current internal negotiations as how to proceed.

If Idaho does not proceed with indictments then the rest can be contained as a public relations issue and people can wrestle over who said what when to whom and what constitutes kashrus; if Idaho does proceed then three zillion rabbis will only be able to mitigate slightly the challenges facing AgriP--because at a certain level the "PR" such as it is will already have failed as the players move from the Jewish world per se or the Postville local community to less sympathetic state and federal players.

Imagine you are the State Attorney General of Idaho, Idaho, not New York, or the Governor and you are told that no, Rabbi Ishkabibble Eliezie gives AgriP a clean bill of health and you, sitting in Boise or Gentileville or whereever go,

who?

Getzel Rubashkin

And yet, steve, the vaunted Dr. Grandin's offer to visit included paying travel and expenses and we didn't hear your, or anyone else's, outrage then...

Many of the commenters here continue to criticize Agri for failing to take her up on that.

Getzel Rubashkin

Iowa, not Idaho

steve

Dr. Grandin intended to come and help your company. For that she should be at least minimally compensated. She was not coming to do a government inspection. The rabbis were supposed to come and inspect and give an unbiased apparaisal of the situation. The intention should not have been for them to give your company a PR boost. When you pay their travel expenses and wine and dine them, you have to expect the cynicism that results.

Paul Freedman

thanks

point taken, wrong potato patch

(I kid, I kid)

but I think it's a valid observation--the goal in running an enterprise or working in one is strategically in part defensive, to prevent certain doors from being opened, no, not all events can be controlled but there has to be some sophistication in knowing what the lay of the land is and who the players are, sometime between April and May somebody may have dropped the ball,

Getzel Rubashkin

Steve, the arrangement proposed for Dr. Grandin was virtually identical with that which the Rabbis took. A trip with food and expenses paid.

++She was not coming to do a government inspection.++
Neither were they.

++The rabbis were supposed to come and inspect and give an unbiased appraisal of the situation. ++

So was she.

Same arrangement, different standards.

rebitzman

++NLRB election at the Agriprocessor facility in Postville++

One was scheduled when the ICE raid took place.

There was one in 2006 as well that Agri shut down - claiming that SS#;s of their workers did not match the workers themselves (there's an irony). The NLRB sued - Agri lost - appealed, and in Aug 2006 a three-member panel of the NLRB board, affirmed the ruling. The board held that Agri could not justify its refusal to bargain by relying on the fact that most of the employees in the bargaining unit presented social security numbers that did not match those in the Social Security Administration's records. The panel advised that unless and until employees are declared illegal and are discharged and/or deported, they remain employees of the company who lawfully voted in an election in which the union prevailed, and, accordingly, the employer is obligated to bargain.

As far as I know - until the raid took place, nothing else tangible had been done.

+Paying the rabbis' expenses is unethical. I++

On the contrary - while I DO disagree with the hand picked participants of this "inspection", Agriprcessors SHOULD pay for the travel expenses of anyone eventually chosen to carry on plant inspections - and those inspectors should travel 1st class.

Carol Ann Varley

On FM August 5th, Dr. Joe Regenstein of Cornell wrote:
"It is important to realize that much more than half of the meat coming out of a kosher slaughterhouse is not kosher. (The hindquarters of each animal and then animals slaughtered incorrectly or found to be treife are all non-kosher.) This non-kosher meat goes into the regular meat supply and non-Jews have a legitimate interest in whether this meat meets the same humane standards as meat slaughtered specifically for non-kosher consumption."

Getzel,
Has Dr. Joe Regenstein, who works closely with Temple Grandin, ever been consulted on humane standards? Also, since 70% of Agri's products are sold as non-kosher, there should be a non-kosher consumer representative included on any investigative panel.

After all, non-kosher consumers comprise your largest market base.

357

whine, whine, whine, blah, blah, blah, complain complain, complain... i will be enjoyning my agri chicken and beef this shabbos - and i will drown out all the noise from above :)

Getzel Rubashkin

Rebitzman: ++There was one in 2006 as well that Agri shut down++

That was not Agri, it was a New York distribution center. I was told long before the raid that the workers here voted, but I don't know details.

Carol: Dr. Grandin, who works closely with Dr. Joe Regenstein, was here. The real question is, if he were to come, would he also accept reimbursement for travel and expenses like Dr. Grandin and those Rabbi's, or would he take the high road?

Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie

Wow I finally made the big time. A headline all my own on Failed Messiah.

The participants in the Mission where all given a schedule in the morning when they arrived saying that a meeting had been scheduled with St. Bridgets at 2 PM.

We took a long time inside the plant, talking to employees without restrictions and wandering all around. The meetings at the plant after the inspection of the facility ran late. We had the mayor, a minister, the safety guy, Martin spoke, the HR guy etc. Also the thunder storm caused a power outage delaying us entering the plant. (maybe that too was a Rubaskin plot-but alas the rabbis spent much of the time talking to workers in the lunch room that has windows till the power came on)

When things became late Rabbi Lerner announced who ever wants could change their ticket and stay for the meeting with the Church leaders. This extra cost was to be at Rubashkin's expense, clearly for something not in their interest. In general I got the impression that they were not to happy with our decision to meet the "other side"

I did not tell the Minister at St. Bridget "no workers", I told them a private meeting without press. They drew the wrong conclusion and it was unfortunate that they misunderstood the intention.

At the meeting we asked them to submit to us specific cases of alleged abuse so could bring them up with the management. So far we have not heard from them. However they seem interested in sharing their concerns with the media.

The question is if they want to help the workers that they feel have been mistreated why shouldn't take this opportunity and begin a process that might help those workers.

You can also ask why St. Bridget has not yet responded to the request to set up regular meetings between them and the plant. Something that might accomplish two important things.

1. Deal with real issues and investigate if they are true or not and then seek ways to make them right.
2. Create a bridge of understanding in a community that needs it.

You can challenge the intent of a noble effort if you want or you can imagine that that everyone is nefarious. Or you can say maybe there is a willingness to change.

So why I am deeply touched by the headline there is a bigger question here, its the future. Maybe the Plant and St. Bridgets should find a way to work together for the welfare of the workers.

Have a Good Shabbos.
Dovid Eliezrie

C-Girl

"Same arrangement, different standards."

Yes, but while Temple Grandin is known to be an expert and a reliable and impartial witness, the rabbis who visited are by no means impartial and their expertise and reliability are only as good as their reputations and their actions.

Getzel Rubashkin

Ahh, yes. Assume people are lying conspirators, based on the fact that they said things you did not like.

++the rabbis who visited are by no means impartial++

Says you, based on the fact that they took the same arrangements as Dr. Grandin.

++their expertise and reliability are only as good as their reputations and their actions++

And you have judged their expertise and reliability on what basis?

steve

Dr. Grandin's offer was to come and offer suggestions that would improve the plant. She was not coming as a PETA rep or a govt investigator. From the recent press releases it's obvious that the rabbis' visit was to investigate the allegations resulting from the 5/12 raid. As independent investigators, you cannot expect them to make impartial judgments after you pay for their expenses and wine and dine them. Furthermore, this was a planned and staged visit. The only investigation that means anything is one that is totally unannounced and not paid for in advance by the company being investigated.

Dr. Grandin made you a generous offer and you turned it down. If a kashrus expert were to offer his services to help you upgrade the kashrus, then, yes, he should be compensated. However, if that same expert was coming to do an inspection for the good of the kahal, then no, it is assur for you to pay his expenses. That is tantamount to shochad- bribery. I hope you are beginning to understand the difference.

Rabbi Shain offered to come down and pay his own expenses. He was turned down and was told that this was an "invitation only" trip. I am challenging your company to allow him to make an unannounced visit some time in the near future and granting him access to any part of the operation he deems appropriate. Think about it and discuss it with your family. Good Shabbos.

agudanic

"And you have judged their expertise and reliability on what basis?"

Let us take the 'organizer', Pesach Lerner. He was the subject of an probe from the NY State Attorney General in the taking of a 'loan' from a nursing home that he oversees. The only reason that it is a 'loan' was that he was caught'.

He was hired to be Exec VP of Young Israel by his friend Chaim, who bought his way into the presidency of that organization. The president gave him a lifetime contract and NCYI is screwed for life.

His first act was to disband the monthly delegate meetings and then annul the NCYI constitution. No more conventions, no more elections.

He sold the building, throwing out 2 shuls into the street. At the present rate, NCYI will be bankrupt in 3 years.

And besides Rubashkin, what does he do? Besides calling for Pollard's release, no one knows.

So we see that his expertise is in following the money and his experience is ... (fill in the blank),

WoolSIlkCotton

A couple of recent editorials said it very well:

http://www.njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/071708/edcolRushToJudgment.html

http://www.forward.com/articles/13930/

Thanks to the writers on failedmessiah, jewcy, and jcarrot for staying on top of this. Hopefully we will soon see all the Rubashkins doing the 'perp walk' in handcuffs.

R

Well, as these Rabbis are not actually kosher witnesses based on the fact a) they are Lubby and as we all know no matter what a Lubby does, even if he sells your daughter drugs and gets her pregnant, as long as says his hail messiahs three times a day, then all Lubbys will stand up for him.
b) these Rabbis are given money by Rubashkins, forget the travel expenses, we are talking in Rubashkin's money purse and so they are not kosher witnesses and neither are they kosher judges. So if Agri want a clean bill, they need to agree to surprise checks made by an unbiased panel of Rabbis and health and safety.

It's like the schools that get inspected in the UK. They warn the school beforehand and suddenly for that day the kids who are not learning any english studies are shipped off to a secret location. So now the school is only half the size, with most kids being female...you would think that the new inspectors would know how it goes by now and actually make a proper surprise visit...one that doesn't include the school suddenly cleaning up their act for that one day. The same goes for this agri paid PR inspection. Even a child could see through this one.

Sarah X.

Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie is very outspoken person. I remember that before the “The Passion of Christ” movie came out Rabbi Eliezrie was going around saying something like this “I do not care that the goyim say we killed Yishka, I think we should have killed yishka”.

It is dubious to hear a chabad leader say that. You would expect chabbad to try to mekarev him and to try to find out what gives him grief instead of executing him.

Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie

To Sarah X

I did not speak about the movie or every to my recollection made the statements you have said in my name. I did not write, speak or make any statements about the film to the press.

aguda'nik

The first chapter of Eichah is written in the form of an acrostic, with each successive verse beginning with the next letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Although chapters 2-4 follow a similar form, there is one notable exception. The verse beginning with the letter פ precedes the verse starting with the letter ע, reversing their alphabetical order. The Gemora in Sanhedrin (104b) cryptically explains that this is because the spies sinned by preceding their mouths (פ = פה) to their eyes (ע = עין) and reporting facts which they didn’t actually see. How is this to be understood, and what lesson can we take from it?

Rav Moshe Shapiro explains that in any encounter, a person is able to find what he is looking for. Before he processes the new situation, he has already made up his mind. Not surprisingly, he proceeds to find evidence to support his conclusion, a phenomenon referred to as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The preceeding was written by Rabbi Ozer Alport. How right was he???

What have these 24 Rabbonim done? A good portion of them, including Dovid Eliezrie were from Chabad and Lubavitch. They already made up their minds before they came. Ditto for the Young Israel Rabbis. Pesach Lerner has been extremely vocal about the situation and hand picked the rabbis on the list.

The press was not allowed on this. So why were 5 Rabbis who worked for the press allowed?

This is Tisha b'Av. Look what we have done to ourselves.............

Yochanan Lavie

A Modern Kinah (apologies Robert Zimmerman)

[70 CE:]
Once upon a time Cohanim dressed so fine
They threw the bums a dime in their prime, didn't they?
Nevi'im called, say, "Beware Migdal, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin', Hey!

They used to laugh about
Every prophet that was shoutin' out
Now they don't talk so loud
Now they don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for their next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

[today:}
You've gone to the finest shul all right, Reb Lerner
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it

You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery trip, but now we realize
You're just selling us alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of Rubashkin's eyes
And ask him "Do you want to make a deal?"

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the sockpuppets and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to write on Failed Messiah via Engelmayer
Who carried on his shoulder a chip on fire
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

St. Bridget's on the steeple and all the duped Sheeple
They're eatin' meat, thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of Glatt kosher labels and things
But you'd better lift your Borsalino hat, you'd better pawn it babe

You used to be so amused
At Shmarya's rag and the language that he used
Write to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
It'll be transparent now, you got no more secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

Archie Bunker

"Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie is very outspoken person"

Considering his position as a chief Rubashkin apologist to the media, maybe the good rabbi can tell us if he is either on the Agri payroll or how far back his friendship with the Rubashkin family goes that he is serving in a pro bono capacity.

There are of course other kinds of negios besides being on the take in a financial sense.

The rabbis visiting Postville should have been impartial. The educated public is not so naive to fall for this stunt engineered by Lubinsky-Chabad-Lerner.

Shmarya

Rubashkin is a large Chabad donor. That alone is a negia.

Archie Bunker

Rubashkin only supports the Chabad outposts that buy his meat. Many Chabad rabbis do not trust Rubashkin's / CHK's kashrus. I guess we know what they are fressing in Orange County, California.

thanbo

>That alone is a large negia.

Some would consider it evidence that Rubashkin can't be so evil. How can a big baal tzedoko (like the Monsey butcher?) be evil? But then, some people are Chabadniks.

Carol Ann Varley

I must apologize to Dr. Joe Regenstein and Shmarya for my botched post last Friday. The words I cited were Shmarya's and not Dr. Regenstein's. I am embarassed by the mistake I made because I did not read the format correctly.

Believe me, I was not auditioning for a public relations job.

Again, my sincere apologies for the error.

Shmarya

When things became late Rabbi Lerner announced who ever wants could change their ticket and stay for the meeting with the Church leaders. This extra cost was to be at Rubashkin's expense, clearly for something not in their interest. In general I got the impression that they were not to happy with our decision to meet the "other side"

Again, this directly contradicts what Rabbi Lerner said on Zev Brenner, and what participants of this tour told others.

In other words, this is another example of Dovid Eliezie's dishonesty. And it is not the only one, by far.

The Monsey Tzadik

The plot thickens…Rabbi Eliezrie has a son in law in San Francisco who works closely with beheima and wife beater (first wife/second wife) Leib Tropper.

This make them strange bedfellows because Troper hate Chabbad just as he hates Rabbi Noach Weinberg and Rabbi Bomzer and Modern Orthodox rabbis in general.

Commentator

Unfortunately Shmarya sees the world through anti-Chabad eyeglasses (who hurt him and how?) and thus writes with a prejudicial, acid-dipped pen. He should bear in mind the first rule of attribution: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple incompetence."

mendel schliftkums

Tropper hates everyone who is not Tropper. Chabad, Christian, his own students. He is a sadist par excellante

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Search this site with Google:

Comment Rules

  1. No anonymous comments.
  2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.
  3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.
  4. Do not sockpuppet.
  5. Try to argue using facts and logic.
  6. Do not lie.
  7. No name-calling, please.
  8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.
***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***
6a00d83451b71f69e201b8d1656462970c-250wi

FailedMessiah.com in the Media