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August 08, 2008

The Dishonesty Of Chabad's Rabbi David Eliezrie

As you read this, keep in mind the following facts:

1. Rabbi David Eliezrie has been identified in the press as a rabbi helping the Rubashkin family, the owners of Agriprocessors, with media.
2. Both Eiezrie, who serves as a sometime Chabad spokesman, and the Rubashkins are Chabad.
3. Eliezrie is…
… a friend of the Rubashkins.
4. The trip was paid for by Agriprocessors.
5. The Rubashkin family is financially supportive of some of these rabbis' organizations.

Yet Eliezrie discloses none of this and writes as if he and the other rabbis on that trip – some of them also friends of the Rubashkins, some of the also Chabad, the vast majority of them affiliated with groups publicly supportive of Agriprocessors – were impartial investigators. The were not.

Further, a three-hour walk through – pre-arranged with Agriprocessors, carried out without the element of surprise, and run under Rubashkin direction – hardly provides for the possibility of a fair, impartial, and thorough investigation – especially when displaced workers were not on the rabbis' agenda.

Yet Rabbi Eliezrie writes a letter that 'exonerates' Agriprocessors:

First-hand look at meat plant shows rabbi has been misled
Posted: August 8, 2008

Sadly, Rabbi Dennis Sasso has transgressed one of the most important and basic principles of Jewish Law, that you cannot judge an issue unless you have heard both sides and heard firsthand testimony ("A moral standard for eating kosher," Aug. 5).
I have just returned from a fact-finding mission of more than 25 rabbis to the Postville, Iowa, meatpacking plant. The reality we discovered was far different from the one that the rabbi claimed. We found a state-of-the-art plant; workers receiving fair wage and benefits such has health, dental and vacation pay; great attention to worker safety; and the use of the e-Verification system to ensure all workers are legal.

Apparently, the rabbi has relied on statements of the union that has a clear agenda and is trying to take over the plant.
The reality today in Pottsville is dramatically different from what he asserted. He has made accusations based on rumor instead of fact.
Rabbi David Eliezrie
President Rabbinical Council of Orange County
Yorba Linda, Calif.

Note Eliezrie has no problem blaming the union for all of Agriprocessors problems, as if the UFCW somehow managed to get state, federal and local law enforcement, more than 18 government agencies all totaled with enforcement actions stretching back years, to do its bidding.

This is a conspiracy theory on par with Elvis sightings and Holocaust denial, yet Eliezrie offers it up unashamed.

Rabbi Eliezrie is clearly truth-challenged, and this letter is not the only recent example.

Here is what Rabbi Eliezrie wrote yesterday on FailedMessiah.com. My remarks are added in italicized blue type:

I am not interested in entering into a long he said she said with Shmaya however I feel it is important to clear up the facts about the meeting with members of St. Bridget.

1. Less than 24 hours before the trip we received a fax letter from the Archbishop and then shortly afterward a second request from St. Bridget asking the group to meet with them. We could of easily ignored the request, said we got it too late etc.

Although St. Bridget's has been the very public face and voice of Agriprocessors illegal workers, feeding, clothing, housing and treating them, the rabbis did not put those illegal workers or St. Bridget's staff and volunteers on their original agenda.

This confirms what St. Bridget's people have been saying , what other local activists and media heard, and what I reported before the rabbis' visit.

2. Rabbi Lerner felt strongly this should be done. I agreed as did others. I called the church and finally reached the lay minister Paul and said we would be glad to meet him and we would attempt to modify the schedule. I told him our only conditions was that there be no press at the meeting. I did not tell him no workers. I was concerned that instead of real conversation it would be a public spectacle if the press was present.

a) Paul Real, Father Oudekirk, and others all say the condition for the meeting was "no union, no workers, no press."

b) By what right did the rabbis exclude the union? Is the union somehow anti-Torah? The union has been granted the legal right to organize Agriprocessors. Many pre-raid workers supported it. Shouldn't the rabbis at least hear what union reps have to say?

c) Eliezrie admits the scheduling of the meeting was done last minute, just before the meeting took place.

Why wasn't the meeting scheduled earlier, so St. Bridget's people could hold a time and a location?

Why wasn't it scheduled earlier in the day, so all rabbis could attend?

Eliezrie, Lerner and their rabbis had plenty of time to meet the Rubashkin family and eat lunch at the plant and hear Rubashkin-chosen speakers. But these "investigators" could not find the time to properly meet with those hurt by Agriprocessors and those who have devoted much of their lives to helping them.

3. We set up the meeting for 2 PM. There had been a thundershower that created a power outage delaying our entering the plant and things had shlepped. I called the Church to tell them we would be late. Rabbi Lerner announced to the group that whoever wanted should stay and they would need to change their tickets. This would have been at the expense of Rubashkin. I and Lerner called the travel agents to change our flights to stay. Two other rabbis, one of whom was driving also stayed.

This contradicts what Rabbi Lerner said on Zev Brenner's Talkline radio show. It also contradicts what my sources tell me.

Here's
Lerner's quote:

"…at 2:30 I got up and said, rabbosai, rabbis, walking backwards, if we're going to make our planes, were going to have to start moving
now. If you wait 15, 20 minutes, someone's going to miss a plane, and there are not a lot of flights out of these airports. We flew into Madison, we flew into Dubuque, Iowa, we flew into another city, because there is no airport within a 2 1/2 , 3 hour drive from Postville. I said, 'We have a meeting scheduled at 2' – that was the one they scheduled with the people of St. Bridget's and some of the former workers – 'everybody is invited to come. But if you go, I cannot take the responsibility for you getting back.…"

This is what my source says happened, as well. In other words, Eliezrie is wrong.


4. We were surprised when we came to the meeting and there was no workers. Our conditions had been no press. They had misunderstood us.

Again, everyone involved from St. Bridget's says they were told, "no union, no workers, no press."

5. We listened to the concerns of Mr. Rael and his associate and later communicated them to them management. We also suggested that there be a system of regular meetings between management and the Paul Rael and his associate. We left our our cards and numbers and remain committed to continue this process of exploring in depth specific cases of alleged abuse and seek solutions.

I am sure that Shmaya will question our efforts motives etc. However anyone of the group could have stayed and no one is being prevented in returning and meeting with the people from St. Bridgets. One of the great tragedies is the lack of communication between them and the church leaders. With a bit of conversation many some real issues could be resolved and if some people are truly deserving of assistance that could be facilitated.

I think the plant management is open and I am hopeful that Mr. Rael and friends will also be.

On a personal note the flight that night was canceled, the one also the next morning from Dubuque. I had to drive 3 hours to Chicago and finally flew to LA at 2 PM arriving home an hour before Shabbos after fighting rush hour traffic in LA.

Some junket.

Some spin.

There are two further points. Each has been made by others more clearly and better that I ever would have.

1. The question of a repeat offender. Agriprocessors and the Rubashkin family are repeat offenders, with long histories of criminal and illegal conduct.

Why should they be trusted now?

And why is a brief scheduled visit to Agriprocessors by non-experts authoritative, especially when much of their findings are based on trusting Agriprocessors?

2. The question of impartiality. Are rabbis allowed to conceal financial and other connections to, what are, in effect, litigants in a case before them?

The answer to the question is a resounding no, yet that is exactly what these rabbis, led by Rabbi Lerner and Rabbi Eliezrie, have done.

Lerner and Eliezrie contradict themselves. They conduct themselves in ways every non-Orthodox school child knows to be wrong.

Luke Ford compared these rabbis' Agriprocessors "inspection" to Red Cross "inspections" of Nazi-controlled ghettos and concentration camps during the Holocaust.

But I think Luke's comparison is wrong. The Red Cross wasn't intentionally abetting crimes. Rabbis Eliezrie, Lerner, et al, are.

[Hat Tip for the Eliezrie letter: Ben Max.]

Comments

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"I cannot take responsibility for getting you back," does not contradict "This would have been at the expense of Rubashkin."

As Rabbi Eliezrie said "On a personal note the flight that night was canceled, the one also the next morning from Dubuque. I had to drive 3 hours to Chicago and finally flew to LA at 2 PM arriving home an hour before Shabbos after fighting rush hour traffic in LA."

The financial responsibility for tickets does not ensure you will get back on time for Shabbos.

Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting? Ignoring all others and correcting one really doesn't prove much.


It seems to me that we are all barking up the wrong tree. Trying to fix and reform Agri is just not going to happen, period! Even if they do make a few changes here and there, once the storm passes they will be back to business as usual. Instead of wasting precious time and energy pointing out the faults of Agri, we must consolidate our resources and find another source of kosher meat. Agri is history. As the saying goes, Yeheyeh Lahem Asher Lahem, those that want to go down with the sinking ship named Agri have every right to do so. The rest of us must move on. Shmaryah, you did a teriffic job in pointing out the multiple flaws at Agri, but its come to a point where just LET IT BE. You have given Agri enough rope to strangle itself, let time do the job.

Getzel Rubashkin spins again.

1. Lerner never says "get you back for Shabbos."

What he says is "I can't take responsibility for getting you back."

2. Lerner was the trip organizer. All invitations, etc., went through him. When he says, "I can't take responsibility to get you back," It means, "You are on your own. I'm not making your arrangements or paying for them."

Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting? Ignoring all others and correcting one really doesn't prove much.

Getzel has never cared about the truth, Jen. He's a Rubashkin through and through.

Shmarya,

Here you said:

++1. Dr. Grandin offered to go to Postville without charge (except for airfare and expenses) to assess the situation for the Rubashkins and make recommendations for changes to improve the slaughter process. That offer included working with the upside-down slaughter the Rubashkin's want to keep in order to sell their meat to Israel. The offer was refused.++

No mention of "conduct [...]every non-Orthodox school child knows to be wrong. And you disparaged Agri for not taking her up on it.

You also mentioned:

++9. Dr. Grandin went to Europe and inspected upside-down kosher slaughter using a rotating pen. The distress rate for the animals there was much lower than at Rubashkin's slaughterhouse.++

Visits presumably proposed under similar arrangements (travel and expenses paid), or even paid visits. No comment from you on the moral issues of such an arrangement, especially in light of the positive comparison.

You have also mentioned numerous times that Dr Grandin should be visiting unannounced, having heard from her that her travel and expenses are to be paid by the company.

And that is all morally OK. But now you seem to feel that if travel expenses are paid it is impossible to have a fair, impartial, and thorough investigation.

Care to explain?

This point that Shmarya raises is mentioned in sifrei halacha and has been systematically ignored by the OU at Rubashkin and elsewhere:

The question of a repeat offender. Agriprocessors and the Rubashkin family are repeat offenders, with long histories of criminal and illegal conduct.

Why should they be trusted now?

++Getzel Rubashkin spins again.

1. Lerner never says "get you back for Shabbos."

What he says is "I can't take responsibility for getting you back."

2. Lerner was the trip organizer. All invitations, etc., went through him. When he says, "I can't take responsibility to get you back," It means, "You are on your own. I'm not making your arrangements or paying for them."++

You were not there to have made that distinction. I offered a simple and sensible explanation that makes sense given the two quotes. Your desire from them to be inherently contradictory does not make them so.

"Getzel has never cared about the truth"

In fairness, I think Getzel is being duped for the large part. It is also very difficult for someone in his position to believe all the horror stories are real.

++Getzel, what about all of the other items that are obviously conflicting?++

The other issues raised in this post are that Shmarya disagrees with the group's priorities, that he disagrees with their exclusion of the UFCW which they felt would compromise their ability to have a constructive meeting and that he trusts the church people more on whether workers were invited.

He brought up the fact that travel expenses were paid, and I commented on that above.

Getzel Rubashkin writes:Here you said:

++1. Dr. Grandin offered to go to Postville without charge (except for airfare and expenses) to assess the situation for the Rubashkins and make recommendations for changes to improve the slaughter process. That offer included working with the upside-down slaughter the Rubashkin's want to keep in order to sell their meat to Israel. The offer was refused.++

No mention of "conduct [...]every non-Orthodox school child knows to be wrong. And you disparaged Agri for not taking her up on it.

You also mentioned:

++9. Dr. Grandin went to Europe and inspected upside-down kosher slaughter using a rotating pen. The distress rate for the animals there was much lower than at Rubashkin's slaughterhouse.++

Visits presumably proposed under similar arrangements (travel and expenses paid), or even paid visits. No comment from you on the moral issues of such an arrangement, especially in light of the positive comparison.

You have also mentioned numerous times that Dr Grandin should be visiting unannounced, having heard from her that her travel and expenses are to be paid by the company.

And that is all morally OK. But now you seem to feel that if travel expenses are paid it is impossible to have a fair, impartial, and thorough investigation.

Care to explain?It's very simple, Getzel – something any non-Orthodox school child would know.

Dr. Grandin would have been a paid consultant of Agriprocessors. She works under a contract that allows her to say what she thinks.

In other words, she flies in, takes money only for the cost of the flight, hotel, and food, does her job, and then tells the media what she thinks.

She is a trained professional with years of experience and a proven track record.

On the other hand, the rabbis pretended to be independent, did not disclose relationships with your family and Agriprocessors, and refused to meet with plant critics.

Some of them even have organizations that take donations from Agriprocessors and your family.

They were reps for Agriprocessors who tried to hide that fact.

You were not there to have made that distinction. I offered a simple and sensible explanation that makes sense given the two quotes. Your desire from them to be inherently contradictory does not make them so.

No, I wan't. But other were, Getzel. And what others have to say matches what I wrote, not your spin.

An interesting observation for those who don't believe in coincidences: Rabbi Eliezrie lists himself as the President, Rabbinical Council of Orange County,
Yorba Linda, Calif.

Yorba Linda is the birthplace and original hometown of President Richard "I'm not a crook" Nixon. As they sang in "Fiddler on the Roof:" "It may not mean a thing/ But then again it might."

(Yes, Nixon had his good points, like resupplying Israel in 1973).

Getzel:

In order to organize a plant, the union has to ask for an NLRB monitored election.

When was the last time there was an NLRB election at the Agriprocessor facility in Postville?

Shabbat Shalom

Eliezrie was there and had his say, which you are refuting based on anonymous "others" which mysteriously changed from singular to plural.

As you said "This is what my source says happened, as well. In other words, Eliezrie is wrong. "

Also, very weak distinction between the Rabbis and Dr. Grandin.

A consultant has a far greater relationship with the company than you allege the Rabbis have. She would be working for the company. She would be subject to losing that relationship. They would are not working for the company, and they are not risking the loss of that relationship by speaking their mind.

Yet you constantly accused them of being biased and pointed to the fact that travel expenses were paid, which turns out to be quite a normal thing which you have come across in the past.

Interesting that in your response the travel expenses argument was not used against the Rabbis anymore.

state of the jews: I have no first hand information, but I am told the workers voted not to unionize. I don't know the details.

Getzel,

Paying the rabbis' expenses is unethical. I know you do business with Walmart. Would Walmart allow you to pay the expenses for their buyer to come visit your facility? Would they allow you to buy their buyer lunch? I know for a fact that they don't even allow their buyers to accept a cup of coffee or a soda! Why? KI HASHOCHAD YEAVER EINEI CHACHAMIM!! Even the goyishe owners of Walmart understand that.

imo there are two issues--kashrus and intra-Orthodox relations and denominational jousting over who is holier-than-thou otoh and the legal ramifications of Idaho's current internal negotiations as how to proceed.

If Idaho does not proceed with indictments then the rest can be contained as a public relations issue and people can wrestle over who said what when to whom and what constitutes kashrus; if Idaho does proceed then three zillion rabbis will only be able to mitigate slightly the challenges facing AgriP--because at a certain level the "PR" such as it is will already have failed as the players move from the Jewish world per se or the Postville local community to less sympathetic state and federal players.

Imagine you are the State Attorney General of Idaho, Idaho, not New York, or the Governor and you are told that no, Rabbi Ishkabibble Eliezie gives AgriP a clean bill of health and you, sitting in Boise or Gentileville or whereever go,

who?

And yet, steve, the vaunted Dr. Grandin's offer to visit included paying travel and expenses and we didn't hear your, or anyone else's, outrage then...

Many of the commenters here continue to criticize Agri for failing to take her up on that.

Iowa, not Idaho

Dr. Grandin intended to come and help your company. For that she should be at least minimally compensated. She was not coming to do a government inspection. The rabbis were supposed to come and inspect and give an unbiased apparaisal of the situation. The intention should not have been for them to give your company a PR boost. When you pay their travel expenses and wine and dine them, you have to expect the cynicism that results.

thanks

point taken, wrong potato patch

(I kid, I kid)

but I think it's a valid observation--the goal in running an enterprise or working in one is strategically in part defensive, to prevent certain doors from being opened, no, not all events can be controlled but there has to be some sophistication in knowing what the lay of the land is and who the players are, sometime between April and May somebody may have dropped the ball,

Steve, the arrangement proposed for Dr. Grandin was virtually identical with that which the Rabbis took. A trip with food and expenses paid.

++She was not coming to do a government inspection.++
Neither were they.

++The rabbis were supposed to come and inspect and give an unbiased appraisal of the situation. ++

So was she.

Same arrangement, different standards.

++NLRB election at the Agriprocessor facility in Postville++

One was scheduled when the ICE raid took place.

There was one in 2006 as well that Agri shut down - claiming that SS#;s of their workers did not match the workers themselves (there's an irony). The NLRB sued - Agri lost - appealed, and in Aug 2006 a three-member panel of the NLRB board, affirmed the ruling. The board held that Agri could not justify its refusal to bargain by relying on the fact that most of the employees in the bargaining unit presented social security numbers that did not match those in the Social Security Administration's records. The panel advised that unless and until employees are declared illegal and are discharged and/or deported, they remain employees of the company who lawfully voted in an election in which the union prevailed, and, accordingly, the employer is obligated to bargain.

As far as I know - until the raid took place, nothing else tangible had been done.

+Paying the rabbis' expenses is unethical. I++

On the contrary - while I DO disagree with the hand picked participants of this "inspection", Agriprcessors SHOULD pay for the travel expenses of anyone eventually chosen to carry on plant inspections - and those inspectors should travel 1st class.

On FM August 5th, Dr. Joe Regenstein of Cornell wrote:
"It is important to realize that much more than half of the meat coming out of a kosher slaughterhouse is not kosher. (The hindquarters of each animal and then animals slaughtered incorrectly or found to be treife are all non-kosher.) This non-kosher meat goes into the regular meat supply and non-Jews have a legitimate interest in whether this meat meets the same humane standards as meat slaughtered specifically for non-kosher consumption."

Getzel,
Has Dr. Joe Regenstein, who works closely with Temple Grandin, ever been consulted on humane standards? Also, since 70% of Agri's products are sold as non-kosher, there should be a non-kosher consumer representative included on any investigative panel.

After all, non-kosher consumers comprise your largest market base.

whine, whine, whine, blah, blah, blah, complain complain, complain... i will be enjoyning my agri chicken and beef this shabbos - and i will drown out all the noise from above :)

Rebitzman: ++There was one in 2006 as well that Agri shut down++

That was not Agri, it was a New York distribution center. I was told long before the raid that the workers here voted, but I don't know details.

Carol: Dr. Grandin, who works closely with Dr. Joe Regenstein, was here. The real question is, if he were to come, would he also accept reimbursement for travel and expenses like Dr. Grandin and those Rabbi's, or would he take the high road?

Wow I finally made the big time. A headline all my own on Failed Messiah.

The participants in the Mission where all given a schedule in the morning when they arrived saying that a meeting had been scheduled with St. Bridgets at 2 PM.

We took a long time inside the plant, talking to employees without restrictions and wandering all around. The meetings at the plant after the inspection of the facility ran late. We had the mayor, a minister, the safety guy, Martin spoke, the HR guy etc. Also the thunder storm caused a power outage delaying us entering the plant. (maybe that too was a Rubaskin plot-but alas the rabbis spent much of the time talking to workers in the lunch room that has windows till the power came on)

When things became late Rabbi Lerner announced who ever wants could change their ticket and stay for the meeting with the Church leaders. This extra cost was to be at Rubashkin's expense, clearly for something not in their interest. In general I got the impression that they were not to happy with our decision to meet the "other side"

I did not tell the Minister at St. Bridget "no workers", I told them a private meeting without press. They drew the wrong conclusion and it was unfortunate that they misunderstood the intention.

At the meeting we asked them to submit to us specific cases of alleged abuse so could bring them up with the management. So far we have not heard from them. However they seem interested in sharing their concerns with the media.

The question is if they want to help the workers that they feel have been mistreated why shouldn't take this opportunity and begin a process that might help those workers.

You can also ask why St. Bridget has not yet responded to the request to set up regular meetings between them and the plant. Something that might accomplish two important things.

1. Deal with real issues and investigate if they are true or not and then seek ways to make them right.
2. Create a bridge of understanding in a community that needs it.

You can challenge the intent of a noble effort if you want or you can imagine that that everyone is nefarious. Or you can say maybe there is a willingness to change.

So why I am deeply touched by the headline there is a bigger question here, its the future. Maybe the Plant and St. Bridgets should find a way to work together for the welfare of the workers.

Have a Good Shabbos.
Dovid Eliezrie

"Same arrangement, different standards."

Yes, but while Temple Grandin is known to be an expert and a reliable and impartial witness, the rabbis who visited are by no means impartial and their expertise and reliability are only as good as their reputations and their actions.

Ahh, yes. Assume people are lying conspirators, based on the fact that they said things you did not like.

++the rabbis who visited are by no means impartial++

Says you, based on the fact that they took the same arrangements as Dr. Grandin.

++their expertise and reliability are only as good as their reputations and their actions++

And you have judged their expertise and reliability on what basis?

Dr. Grandin's offer was to come and offer suggestions that would improve the plant. She was not coming as a PETA rep or a govt investigator. From the recent press releases it's obvious that the rabbis' visit was to investigate the allegations resulting from the 5/12 raid. As independent investigators, you cannot expect them to make impartial judgments after you pay for their expenses and wine and dine them. Furthermore, this was a planned and staged visit. The only investigation that means anything is one that is totally unannounced and not paid for in advance by the company being investigated.

Dr. Grandin made you a generous offer and you turned it down. If a kashrus expert were to offer his services to help you upgrade the kashrus, then, yes, he should be compensated. However, if that same expert was coming to do an inspection for the good of the kahal, then no, it is assur for you to pay his expenses. That is tantamount to shochad- bribery. I hope you are beginning to understand the difference.

Rabbi Shain offered to come down and pay his own expenses. He was turned down and was told that this was an "invitation only" trip. I am challenging your company to allow him to make an unannounced visit some time in the near future and granting him access to any part of the operation he deems appropriate. Think about it and discuss it with your family. Good Shabbos.

"And you have judged their expertise and reliability on what basis?"

Let us take the 'organizer', Pesach Lerner. He was the subject of an probe from the NY State Attorney General in the taking of a 'loan' from a nursing home that he oversees. The only reason that it is a 'loan' was that he was caught'.

He was hired to be Exec VP of Young Israel by his friend Chaim, who bought his way into the presidency of that organization. The president gave him a lifetime contract and NCYI is screwed for life.

His first act was to disband the monthly delegate meetings and then annul the NCYI constitution. No more conventions, no more elections.

He sold the building, throwing out 2 shuls into the street. At the present rate, NCYI will be bankrupt in 3 years.

And besides Rubashkin, what does he do? Besides calling for Pollard's release, no one knows.

So we see that his expertise is in following the money and his experience is ... (fill in the blank),

A couple of recent editorials said it very well:

http://www.njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/071708/edcolRushToJudgment.html

http://www.forward.com/articles/13930/

Thanks to the writers on failedmessiah, jewcy, and jcarrot for staying on top of this. Hopefully we will soon see all the Rubashkins doing the 'perp walk' in handcuffs.

Well, as these Rabbis are not actually kosher witnesses based on the fact a) they are Lubby and as we all know no matter what a Lubby does, even if he sells your daughter drugs and gets her pregnant, as long as says his hail messiahs three times a day, then all Lubbys will stand up for him.
b) these Rabbis are given money by Rubashkins, forget the travel expenses, we are talking in Rubashkin's money purse and so they are not kosher witnesses and neither are they kosher judges. So if Agri want a clean bill, they need to agree to surprise checks made by an unbiased panel of Rabbis and health and safety.

It's like the schools that get inspected in the UK. They warn the school beforehand and suddenly for that day the kids who are not learning any english studies are shipped off to a secret location. So now the school is only half the size, with most kids being female...you would think that the new inspectors would know how it goes by now and actually make a proper surprise visit...one that doesn't include the school suddenly cleaning up their act for that one day. The same goes for this agri paid PR inspection. Even a child could see through this one.

Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie is very outspoken person. I remember that before the “The Passion of Christ” movie came out Rabbi Eliezrie was going around saying something like this “I do not care that the goyim say we killed Yishka, I think we should have killed yishka”.

It is dubious to hear a chabad leader say that. You would expect chabbad to try to mekarev him and to try to find out what gives him grief instead of executing him.

To Sarah X

I did not speak about the movie or every to my recollection made the statements you have said in my name. I did not write, speak or make any statements about the film to the press.

The first chapter of Eichah is written in the form of an acrostic, with each successive verse beginning with the next letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Although chapters 2-4 follow a similar form, there is one notable exception. The verse beginning with the letter פ precedes the verse starting with the letter ע, reversing their alphabetical order. The Gemora in Sanhedrin (104b) cryptically explains that this is because the spies sinned by preceding their mouths (פ = פה) to their eyes (ע = עין) and reporting facts which they didn’t actually see. How is this to be understood, and what lesson can we take from it?

Rav Moshe Shapiro explains that in any encounter, a person is able to find what he is looking for. Before he processes the new situation, he has already made up his mind. Not surprisingly, he proceeds to find evidence to support his conclusion, a phenomenon referred to as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The preceeding was written by Rabbi Ozer Alport. How right was he???

What have these 24 Rabbonim done? A good portion of them, including Dovid Eliezrie were from Chabad and Lubavitch. They already made up their minds before they came. Ditto for the Young Israel Rabbis. Pesach Lerner has been extremely vocal about the situation and hand picked the rabbis on the list.

The press was not allowed on this. So why were 5 Rabbis who worked for the press allowed?

This is Tisha b'Av. Look what we have done to ourselves.............

A Modern Kinah (apologies Robert Zimmerman)

[70 CE:]
Once upon a time Cohanim dressed so fine
They threw the bums a dime in their prime, didn't they?
Nevi'im called, say, "Beware Migdal, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin', Hey!

They used to laugh about
Every prophet that was shoutin' out
Now they don't talk so loud
Now they don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for their next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

[today:}
You've gone to the finest shul all right, Reb Lerner
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it

You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery trip, but now we realize
You're just selling us alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of Rubashkin's eyes
And ask him "Do you want to make a deal?"

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the sockpuppets and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to write on Failed Messiah via Engelmayer
Who carried on his shoulder a chip on fire
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

St. Bridget's on the steeple and all the duped Sheeple
They're eatin' meat, thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of Glatt kosher labels and things
But you'd better lift your Borsalino hat, you'd better pawn it babe

You used to be so amused
At Shmarya's rag and the language that he used
Write to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
It'll be transparent now, you got no more secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a Herodian stone?

"Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie is very outspoken person"

Considering his position as a chief Rubashkin apologist to the media, maybe the good rabbi can tell us if he is either on the Agri payroll or how far back his friendship with the Rubashkin family goes that he is serving in a pro bono capacity.

There are of course other kinds of negios besides being on the take in a financial sense.

The rabbis visiting Postville should have been impartial. The educated public is not so naive to fall for this stunt engineered by Lubinsky-Chabad-Lerner.

Rubashkin is a large Chabad donor. That alone is a negia.

Rubashkin only supports the Chabad outposts that buy his meat. Many Chabad rabbis do not trust Rubashkin's / CHK's kashrus. I guess we know what they are fressing in Orange County, California.

>That alone is a large negia.

Some would consider it evidence that Rubashkin can't be so evil. How can a big baal tzedoko (like the Monsey butcher?) be evil? But then, some people are Chabadniks.

I must apologize to Dr. Joe Regenstein and Shmarya for my botched post last Friday. The words I cited were Shmarya's and not Dr. Regenstein's. I am embarassed by the mistake I made because I did not read the format correctly.

Believe me, I was not auditioning for a public relations job.

Again, my sincere apologies for the error.

When things became late Rabbi Lerner announced who ever wants could change their ticket and stay for the meeting with the Church leaders. This extra cost was to be at Rubashkin's expense, clearly for something not in their interest. In general I got the impression that they were not to happy with our decision to meet the "other side"

Again, this directly contradicts what Rabbi Lerner said on Zev Brenner, and what participants of this tour told others.

In other words, this is another example of Dovid Eliezie's dishonesty. And it is not the only one, by far.

The plot thickens…Rabbi Eliezrie has a son in law in San Francisco who works closely with beheima and wife beater (first wife/second wife) Leib Tropper.

This make them strange bedfellows because Troper hate Chabbad just as he hates Rabbi Noach Weinberg and Rabbi Bomzer and Modern Orthodox rabbis in general.

Unfortunately Shmarya sees the world through anti-Chabad eyeglasses (who hurt him and how?) and thus writes with a prejudicial, acid-dipped pen. He should bear in mind the first rule of attribution: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple incompetence."

Tropper hates everyone who is not Tropper. Chabad, Christian, his own students. He is a sadist par excellante

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