Religious Zionist Rabbi Accuses Peace Now Of "Mesira," Informing – Calls For Killing Peace Now Leaders

Orthodox Judaism in all its forms and democracy do not mix. There is no better proof of that assertion than what Rabbi…

…Yisrael Rozen just did.

Ynet reports:

Rabbi accuses Peace Now of grave sin
Yisrael Rozen writes article blaming left-wing organization for tale-bearing. Quoting Maimonides, he says punishment for such behavior is death; Peace Now head threatens to press charges
By Kobi Nahshoni

Rabbi Yisrael Rozen, head of the orthodox-affiliated, non-profit Zomet Institute, has expressed perhaps the most strident censure possible in Judaism for Peace Now activists, who are fighting to uproot settlers from the Migron settlement.

"Such tale-bearing is known in Hebrew as 'moser' (informer)… Individuals who have sunk to this lowest level of behavior were despised and shunned (in Jewish tradition). They are considered worse than
heretics or apostates," wrote the rabbi in an article published in "Shabbat BeShabbato", a leaflet distributed in Israeli synagogues weekly.

Rozen wrote that, according to halacha (Jewish law) the punishment of such tale-bearing was death.

The rabbi quoted Maimonides, who wrote "a person who turns over a Jewish person or his property to Gentiles is a moser and has no part in the world to come… It is permissible to execute the moser even today when there is no capital punishment… it is permissible to kill the moser before he informs… If he has been told not to inform and insists on informing, then he who executes the moser first has great merit."

However, he immediately followed this statement with a warning against taking the law into one's own hands, stating that "the trial of capital offenses is the office of the court and it is not the duty of individuals to implement this particular halacha."

In his article, the rabbi addresses a recently drafted arrangement between the Yesha Council and the Defense Ministry, which allows for the eviction of the controversial Magron settlement in exchange for resettlement of the community in another region.

In reference to this, the rabbi paints a picture of the current political struggle as a struggle "between the ideology of 'Gush Emunim and the ideology of Peace Now."

"It is actually more accurate to say that the struggle is not really ideological, rather it's practical-tactical to an astonishing degree – faith-based land-holding vs. short-term motivated talebearing," he elaborated.

Rozen claims that the Palestinians who technically own the land in question had no idea that this was the case, but that Peace Now researched the matter and informed them. By doing so, Rozen claims, Peace Now used them "as a handle in war between left and right, between the Jews."

"This kind of tale-bearing, to the court or to the European Union and wealthy non-governmental foundations across the world, is called 'moser'," he said.

In response, Peace Now Secretary-General Yariv Oppenheimer said that "the legal authorities must not stand for the phenomenon that is evidenced by alleged rabbi Yisrael Rozen, and not allow such incitement and calls to murder."

"Peace Now will continue in its struggle to put a stop to the illegal construction of settlements and the struggle for a sane future for the State of Israel. The organization will appeal to the Attorney-General in order to file charges against the rabbi and his dangerous words," he said.

Yes, Rabbi Rozen did say to avoid vigilante attacks, and said it is the job of the courts to enforce the "law" he wants enforced.

Make no mistake about it – Rozen wants Peace Now leaders killed. But Rozen knows there are Jews who will understand his message as a coded call for vigilante attacks on Peace Now leaders, and there is a small but significant number of those Jews who may choose to act.

Rozen should be indicted immediately.

UPDATE 8-31-08 – After viewing Rabbi Rozen's remarks in context, I still believe what he did is wrong, akin to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. But I now do not think what he wrote is an indictable offense. Still, what he wrote is wrong – dangerously so - and for that he should be punished – if not in a court of law, then in the court of public opinion.

Comments

[Yisrael Medad]

Thank God or whomever that there are some judges and before that, some prosecutors, who know that Rozen did not want anyone killed (not to mention that no potential political assassin needs a call for vigilantism, just like no wild-eyed anarchist needs Yariv oppenheimer to urge him to protest against the fence and then interpret that as also meaning to throw stones and try to injure or kill policement/soldiers).

Or do we?

I forgot. Freedom of expression is not a constitutional right in Israel.

P.S. Just in case Shmarya would think of making an official police complaint against me, I do not approve of incitement to acts of violence or of violent speech and I do think any mention of "din mosser" is unnecessary. We have a democratic state which has a legal code and people who subvert the state or seek to cooperate with its enemies, say, Jeff Halper in sneaking Pals. out from Gaza on boats, if he was involved,, or even aid its enemies like Azmif Bashara, should be prosecuted and put on trial.

[Shmarya]

Freedom of expression is not a constitutional right in Israel.

It is in America, as well. Perhaps you've forgotten.

But calling for murder and incitement to violence is not protected speech – even when someone tries to cover that illegal speech with a fig leaf of religion.

Let Rozen rot in jail.

[Archie Bunker]

Without getting into the specifics of this case, it's clear that Shmarya believes that his utopian political philosophies should ALWAYS trump the Jewish religion. That G-d's laws must be barbaric if there is ever criteria for capital punishment. Shmarya is a fanatic in worshipping his political god.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I can see Shmarya's point. I have a natural revulsion for Peace Now's idiocy but as an intelligent person I have to rise about that nausea and remember that they are human beings and that threatening them with death is wrong.
Rather, the Mafdal should work on getting a right wing government into power that will finally arrest and imprison these sympathizers with our enemies instead of allowing them to run around and attempt to get Jews fordibly removed from their legal homes.

[Muggs McGuinness]

Rabbi Rozen's comments are just like a Mafia extortionist. "Ya know, it would be a terrible thing if your wife got into an accident. It would be just awful if your children were late from school. I'm only saying what a shame it would be."

Why not a simple: Kill the infidels.

[Archie Bunker]

Muggs, have you ever heard of sedition?

Even the United States govt puts people to death who are guilty of that crime.

[Peace When?]

Rozen claims that the Palestinians who technically own the land in question had no idea that this was the case, but that Peace Now researched the matter and informed them.

They researched the land ownership and found that it was really owned by the Arabs, and they told them. Fine. There is nothing wrong with letting the legal owner of something know that they are indeed the legal owners.

However, I highly doubt that Peace Now works the other way as well. Do they research Arab settlements and, when they find that Jews are the legal owners, advocate for the Arabs to move out?

I think not.

If Peace Now would like to take it upon themselves to - in the name of peace - reasearch all land holdings in Israel (including Yesha) and determine what is legally owned by Jews and what is owned by Arabs so that the lands in question can go back to their legal owners, that would be fine.

However, it appears they their main objective is undermining Jewish land/settlement claims, but not Arab ones.

In short, their objective seems not to be the Truth and only the Truth, but rather the advancement of their ideology, only.

[Yos]

Can a cleric anywhere or any religion refrain from talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time? You read these quotes and you can just imagine some jackass in dark glasses sucking on a toothpick.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H
Shmaryah, the laws regarding mosrim and rodfim are printed in books with millions of copies published. The study of these books is even subsidized by the Israeli govern,ment and will remain so in the near future.
Anyone can quote the Rambam regarding laws of moser and rodef anyone with access to the copy machine or the internet can distribute a newsletter.
If your leftwing cronies would succeeed in silencing one rabbi 10 others will stand up in his place till the heretical government is replaced by one based on Torah law and the likes of Peace Now will cease to exist in Eretz Yisrael.

[chaim]

absolutely agree 1000% that these criminally insane traitorous leftist self hating swines must be killed immediately,
these traitorous swines are no better,then the jewish kapo's during world war two,who collaborated with the nazis to kill their brethen,so do these filthy swines collaborate with all of israel's enemies to destroy her,
and the biggest leftist kapo traitorous swine,is none other than Ehud Olmert,yemach shemo

[chaim]

in any other normal country,these traitorous leftist's would be put on trial for high treason,and if found guilty they would be hanging by their miserable necks,
but in this insane asylum called israel
the insane traitors are running the asylum
g-d help us

[Yochanan Lavie]

Amen to Garnel's comment.

[Rachel Batya]

I want to say something about the power of words. Please note the following two statements from Rabbi Rozen:

1. From Maimonides: "If he has been told not to inform and insists on informing, then *he* who executes the moser first has great merit." (emphasis mine).

The quote does not say "the court" or "the authorities." It speaks of a single person: he. This creates a picture in people's minds--a picture of a man who, believing himself to be following halacha, kills the moser and has "great merit." Whether this is what Maimonides meant or not is immaterial. We are dealing with highly inflamed emotions here, and the rabbi is implanting some pretty powerful images into the minds of people who are pretty upset already.

If he is as learned as he sounds, then he surely knows that words have the impact to create or destroy, and that once the words are out of his mouth and in the minds of his listeners, it is well-nigh impossible to root them out.

2. Rabbis Rozen then says: "the trial of capital offenses is the office of the court and it is not the duty of individuals to implement this particular halacha."

This is the equivalent of saying "Oh, by the way, never mind the picture I just burned into your mind of killing these people that we loathe as traitors to the state of Israel. Just let the courts handle it." He can't ignore the impact of his first statement. He just can't. He knows better than that. Or he should.

It really shouldn't matter what your politics are here. This kind of doubletalk is hypocritical and destructive no matter who is comes from. I've seen it happen across the political spectrum, and I really can't stand any of it.

[Jason]

Umm, Archie, you sure you don't mean treason? The last time the US tried anyone for sedition, the convictions were all thrown out as unconstitutional. And sedition is advocating the overthrow of the government, while treason is an act of serious disloyalty to country. And it would be very difficult to make the claim here in the US (and I imagine in Israel as well), that from a legal perspective what Peace Now did was treasonous.

Chaim: the only countries that would try and hang PeaceNow for what they have done are repressive third world countries, hardly "normal" countries, unless you are a fascist or authoritarian. I know many of you would like to see Israel become such a country, but you really need to come up with some better rhetoric.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I think a good lawyer wouldn't have to break a sweat if he wanted to prove treason charges against Peace Now. After all, aiding and abetting the enemy is a time of war is treason. Both Hamas and Fatah are on record as being in an open state of war with Israel, (while magnanimously accepting Israeli money and medical assistance mind you).

But the point was made a few comments back: Peace Now is NOT interested in justice. They don't protest when the Arabs put up illegal housing inside the Green Line. They don't protest when Arabs attack Jews in an unprovoked fashion. They care only about one thing and that is why they have such a stink about them.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H
Shmaryah
May be you should get together with the Peace Now activists dig up the body of the Rambam and try him for sedition for daring to call for executing mosrim and rodfim without a trial?:-)
(By the way Rambam also says that this halacha punishing such people was implemented in his time and place starting with lesser punishments such as fines and other punishments and up to execution depending on the severety of their actions and if they continued putting the property and lives of other Jews in danger.)

[Jason]

I suppose Garnel, under your reasoning, that the money the Israeli government sends to Fatah or any Palestinians is "aiding and abetting the enemy" too? And thus treasonous? How about giving any land in exchange for peace? Is that treasonous too, punishable by death? I just want to make sure I and everyone else understands your position so we can evaluate your opinions with full information.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

Lubavitcher Rebbe on "Peace Now":
The Rebbe on ‘Peace Now’ Part 1 http://savethelandofisrael.blogspot.com/2006/11/rebbe-on-peace-now-part-1.html

The Rebbe on 'Peace Now'. Part 2. http://savethelandofisrael.blogspot.com/2006/12/rebbe-on-peace-now-part-2.html

a part from the above links:
[...]
The argument of the Peace Now - as is the argument of the communists and Arabs is based exactly on the thinking of the spies in their time that the nation inhabiting the land is too powerful for us to overwhelm. Do not conquer and put down roots in the land of Israel! Since there dwell in Jerusalem 60,000 Arabs [in1980] they are far more powerful than the Jewish people living there, quoting the spies – “they are stronger than us”, therefore Jews must not be allowed to live in the Old City [of Jerusalem]. If Jewish people already live there, they should be evicted by all means available. The Old City must be given away, including the Temple Mount and the spot of the holy of Holies – to the Arabs! They raise the same argument about Hebron. Since there live there 50,000 Arabs [1980], they are stronger than the Jews who live there. And they raise further arguments in favour of the Arabs – that they are descendents of Abraham the patriarch who is buried in the Cave of Machpela in Hebron. Therefore, we must not allow Jews to live there, and those that are there already must be thrown out! They argue further that any lands that the Arabs demand must be handed over to them, since they are more powerful than our selves! The spies argued: “All the peoples whom we saw there are giants who fell from the skies – one is a giant murderer, the second is a giant in armed robbery, the third is a giant thief, the fourth a great diplomat, one knows many languages, and more. And on top of all these arguments they announce ‘Peace Now!’ In addition to all their arguments they offer peace, and the peace will be NOW – peace unto Israel! And more! They argue that giving away the lands to the Arabs is human justice! Thereby danger to the Jewish People will be averted since it is a land which devours its inhabitants. If we annoy the Arabs and not give in to them their demands - they will eat us alive. And if we do give in to them, giving the land away, there will be peace NOW! Who argues this? Jews and Jewish communists. These people bring down terrible danger onto Jews and onto the Land.

These people are the ‘demolishers and destroyer’ from amongst the Jewish people and of the land of Israel. Yet they shout peace now. There is nothing greater than peace, but G-d says [Isaiah 39.17] ‘, The wicked have no peace [to offer!]’.
[From the farbrengen of Shabbos Parshas Shelach, 1980]{...]

[Rachel Batya]

Tell me, Ariel, did the rebbe say all this before he (you should pardon the expression) died, or are you channeling it directly?

And if you are advocating the killing of one Jew by another, you might consider that by doing so, you are giving the enemies of the Jews exactly what they want. If we can destroy ourselves, they won't have to bother. Mazel tov!

I was once taught that we Jews are a very intelligent people who can talk and argue and disagree and work things out without resorting to the same kind of violence that the rest of the world uses. Surely there's a better way to ensure our continued survival than by threatening to kill each other?

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

Tell me, Ariel, did the rebbe say all this before he (you should pardon the expression) died, or are you channeling it directly?

If you would have read my post you'd see it has a date at the end when the Rebbe said this:
[From the farbrengen of Shabbos Parshas Shelach, 1980]{...]

And if you are advocating the killing of one Jew by another, you might consider that by doing so, you are giving the enemies of the Jews exactly what they want. If we can destroy ourselves, they won't have to bother. Mazel tov!

A human being Jew or non Jew who presents danger to other Jews in general and in Eretz Yisrael in particular should be stopped by whatever means are available and most appropriate for the situation as mentioned in the words of the Torah and our holy sages.

I was once taught that we Jews are a very intelligent people who can talk and argue and disagree and work things out without resorting to the same kind of violence that the rest of the world uses. Surely there's a better way to ensure our continued survival than by threatening to kill each other?

Posted by: Rachel Batya | August 29, 2008 at 03:20 PM

One can talk and argue but screaming fire in a crowded theater is not acceptable, doing so time and again for many decades as is done by Peace Now is criminal.
If you research the history of this organization for 5 minutes you'll see they have in many cases provoked Arabs to kill or injure Jews in places where this was not the case in the past and they continue to do so.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H
To quote the Rambam:

“It is forbidden to hand over a Jew to the heathen, neither his person nor his goods, even if he is wicked and a sinner, even if he causes distress and pain to fellow-Jews. Whoever hands over a Jew to the heathen has no part in the next world. It is permitted to kill a moser wherever he is. It is even permitted to kill him before he has handed over [a Jew], as soon as he has said: I shall hand over so and so, his person or his property, he has put himself under sentence of death. And if the man is warned, and told not to hand over, but retorts boldly that he will do so nonetheless, it is a divine commandment to kill him, and the sooner, the better... there are numerous cases in the cities of the Maghreb where informers who are known to reveal people’s money are killed or are handed over to the heathen authorities to be put to death or beaten, or imprisoned according to the degree of their iniquity” (Mishne Torah, Torts 8, 9-11).

[Rachel Batya]

--If you would have read my post you'd see it has a date at the end when the Rebbe said this:
[From the farbrengen of Shabbos Parshas Shelach, 1980]{...]--

Ah, yes, you're right. My mistake. I went directly to the links and saw only the date at the top of each page, which was 2006.

But that's the only thing we agree on.

[Jake]

Ariel,
Are you aware that the Shin Bet monitors English blogs.

If I were you I wouldn't bother going to Israel for the next decade.

Also get to airports early. Based on your personal comments here you may end up on the terrorist watch list. It makes travelling a real PITA.

[Rowan Berkeley]

The entire religious zionist discourse depends on taking what is at best a spiritual figure of speech literally : namely, the expression that refers to dispossession of the supposedly god-given land as "death" or "extermination" or "holocaust," when in fact it is merely eviction. I found an excellent example of this on the Israel National News website just a few days ago:
The philosophical deliberations of IDF Maj.-Gen. Gershon HaCohen - the man who oversaw the expulsion of the 9,000 Jews of Gush Katif in Jewish Gaza three summers ago - were of less interest to the Gush Katif expellees than the actual results of his actions. former N’vei Dekalim resident Mazal Henya, expressing her intense emotions in an extreme manner, said, "This is a man who killed nearly 10,000 people, and I can’t understand why they would put him on a panel."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127260

[Yisrael Medad]

For those interested, I have post the column of Rabbi Rosen as it has appeared (with my comment).

Here:

http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2008/08/moser-text-and-comment.html

[Yisrael Medad]

Let's try that again,

here

[Reader from America]

Funny the number of times I have heard Americans proudly state that Jonathan pollard should be put to death (chas veshalom! He should be freed).... And of course the ACTUAL traitors (pollard did not commit treason) who have been put to death or everyone agrees ought to be put to death in America.... A democracy..... So how is death penalty for traitors not compatible with a district based democratic system or republic if that is what the USA proudly proclaims as its own law as the leading Republic of the world?

[Reader from America]

To clarify above statement which was awkward sounding, Free Jonathan Pollard!

In case you missed my point.

[Jason]

So Ariel, we can't hand over child molesters or murderers to the American (or British, of Australian, or whatever) police since

"It is forbidden to hand over a Jew to the heathen, neither his person nor his goods, even if he is wicked and a sinner, even if he causes distress and pain to fellow-Jews"?

[Jake]

Yisrael,
Thanks for posting the link to the original Rabbi Rosen article in Hebrew.

The YNET hatchet job was clearly evident after reading the original.

The headline on this blog was uncalled for. As well as the conclusions drawn.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

So Ariel, we can't hand over child molesters or murderers to the American (or British, of Australian, or whatever) police since

"It is forbidden to hand over a Jew to the heathen, neither his person nor his goods, even if he is wicked and a sinner, even if he causes distress and pain to fellow-Jews"?

Posted by: Jason | August 30, 2008 at 09:05 PM

No, you misunderstand the terms the Rambam is using in the above quote ("wicked", sinner", distress and pain").
Plus if you look further in Mishne Torah he brings down a number of a situations when it is permited or even a mitzvah to turn over a person to the gentile authorities.

[Shmarya]

The YNET hatchet job was clearly evident after reading the original.

The headline on this blog was uncalled for. As well as the conclusions drawn.

Not at all.

Rozen called for the death of Jews he disagrees with. His "caveat" – leave those deaths to the courts (by which he means religious courts) is laughable.

And if a beit din does paskin to kill them?

Pathetic.

[Shmarya]

And even if you want to say he means secular courts, those same secular courts have ruled time and time again these actions are legal.

So what does Rozen mean?

He means go out and do it yourself.

And he should be indicted.

[Jake]

Question?

What did Rosen say , explictly about how these " mosrim" will be punished?

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

Ariel,
Are you aware that the Shin Bet monitors English blogs.

Yes, I am.

If I were you I wouldn't bother going to Israel for the next decade.
Also get to airports early. Based on your personal comments here you may end up on the terrorist watch list. It makes travelling a real PITA.

Posted by: Jake | August 29, 2008 at 05:54 PM

I have had no problem in airports in this country and sometimes even flew with virtually no documents (when they were misplaced).
As far as I know nothing I post on my blogs or in comments here breaks any American laws and as far as Israeli laws are concerned they lack jurisdictionto enforce them here or to punish me for saying/writing something in the USA.
And I doubt they would ban me from coming there as they probably understand that doing so would give me tons of instant free publicity. As Is my internet audience is 1000s of people if I'd be banned from coming to Eretz Yisrael I'd end up being interviewed by the media again such as HaAretz and the like with audience of millions or perhaps various other papers with even greater audience...

PS. If one person who is thinking of going to Israel and participating in Peace Now provocations or the like will change his mind because of fear that some G-d fearing Jew might do everything in his power to stop him from putting other Jews in danger this too would be worthwhile.
Few people supporting any cause including Peace Now are willing to risk giving up their lives for it.
Knowing that they will be looked upon and treated as despicable traitors and will have to look over their shoulder might convince many of them to invest their energies in saving the earth from the global warming or some other more rewarding popular cause instead...

[Carol-Ann]

I do not know the group, Peace Now; but, it is disturbing to read about Jews wanting to kill other Jews. What happened to God's commandment, "Thou shalt not kill"?

BTW, the death penalty in the United States should be eliminated.

[Jake]

Carol-Ann

The correct translation is " Thou Shalt not MURDER "

In fact there are times were Jews are obligated to kill.

If you would have seen the original article in Hebrew you would realize that Rabbi Rosen was absolutly not saying, suggesting, or inferring that those individuals from Peace Now should be punished with the death penalty. That rather is based on a incomplete translation. A misrepresentation of what the article was really about and the need to whenever possible attack Orthodox Judaism.

There are many important and accurate issues brought up on this blog. What Rabbi Rosen said is not one of them.

Anyone care to answer the question I posted in a previous post?

[Jason]

Carol Ann,

I believe the response would be that the Torah actually says "Thou Shalt not murder." There are times when killing is appropriate, such as during a war, or in the extreme cases where the death penalty was called for (even though the Talmud says that a Jewish court that sentenced someone to death once every 70 years was considered a bloodthirsty court and our tradition teaches us that no one was ever executed by a Jewish religious court). These Taliban-like Jewish extremists will tell you that this is one of those situations. As you have probably already realized, there are so many Jewish writings that one can find a source to back up every crazy, extremist position one can come up with.

[Carol-Ann]

The United States dropped atomic bombs on cities resulting in massive deaths of civilians, including children.

Harry Turman said it was justified killing while the mother cried murder.

Aren't the concepts interchangeable depending upon what side your on?

[pure sphardic]

just thought to mention, that peace now activists yelled the same exact statements at Meir Kahana and his supporters. If you remember when Kahana staged a legal demonstration in Givatayim, peace now activists shouted death to Kahana while stoning them and smashed the front windshield of his car. Several of their activists were interviewed by the left controlled Israeli Media and they said again and again that they were willing to kill whoever stopped the "peace".

It's interesting to see how people's view is completely changed when the sides changed. I'm not pro-violence, but I have very very little pity for the peace now activists. I do feel they pose a threat to the future of Israel, and are following Yitzchak Rabin's lead in shooting down Menachem Begin's ship, killing 20 people all along. So much for peace!

[Jason]

One bad act does not excuse another.

If Israel is to survive as a modern, vibrant nation, it must enforce the rule of law. If Peace Now has broken the law, it or those members that committed the crime must be tried and convicted. While different countries have different standards for protecting speech, the rabbi's statement should be protected as well, unless under the circumstances it created an immediate incitement of violence. Plenty of Israelis make much more explicit threats and incitements towards Palestinians. Governments should tread very carefully when restricting the speech of their citizens.

Of course, many people apparently want to live in the biblical Land of Israel, not the modern State of Israel. As if that was even feasible today.

[Jerome Soller]

Shmarya,
All I can say on this is how disturbed I am by the activities of "Peace Now" and other individuals (like Halper - who I have seen give his talk). Their vision of Peace would ultimately lead to a temporary peace (destruction of modern State of Israel) before the Sunnis and Shia's turn on each other. While Rabbi Rozen should learn to better control his choice of words and focus his efforts in a more positive direction (replacing the current government with a more right wing government), I find it impossible to muster any sympathy for Peace Now. There are much greater problems in Israel than the words of this rabbi, like the current weak, corrupt, and incompetent leftist government that is giving away Israel piece by piece.

Jerome

[pure sphardic]

shmarya,
where exactly do you put the line of where you can kill, where is it considered that you are protecting your own life? I would definetely argue that Peace now is endangering other people's lives, you might argue on that, but you should be able to understand someone who thinks so, unless you are completely unaware of who peace now really are.

It's sad to see how the Israeli media fusses over every such statement, and Meretz members and the like get away with everything. Remember when the officer in the expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif said that we should burn all the Haredim? that was quickly forgotten, and he got away with a promotion in his honorable job for ruining Jewish lives.

Let's not mix up religious fanatics and extreme political views. His statement can be understood without the Rambam. In every civilized country, the law permits you to kill in order to protect your own life.

[Shmarya]

In every civilized country, the law permits you to kill in order to protect your own life.

Really?

So, in America, if you think George Bush is endangering your life by fighting a foolish war in Iraq, you can kill him?

Is that what you mean?

There is a political process and their are courts.

The fact is, your position consistently loses elections and the courts reject it out of hand.

What you really mean is: "We can't win democratically so we have to take matters into our own hands – after all, even if we are the minority, we are correct."

In democracies, that is known as sedition.

[pure sphardic]

shmarya,
I only mentioned civilized countries to prove the point that you can kill in certain situations. What happens in countries where ther is no law and order. would you agree in such a case that it is permissable to kill?
True if there is a way to do it through a court, then you must do it so, but if Israel's court are considered fair is up for debate, in my personal experience it is sadly not.
Another question, Shmarya. What if the law absolutely forbids you to kill and your God commands you to kill, what to do?
My point is not to prove one side or another, rather to show, that when it comes to such issues, it is impossible to put a line anywhere.

Every revolution in History, including the American Revolution started with such statements, and even more such actions. Following your logic, it was forbidden for the Revolutionists to fight, since there were courts. Some people believed the courts were fair, and others didn't. Same here today.

What about the Jews' invasion to Canaan?

[Shmarya]

True if there is a way to do it through a court, then you must do it so, but if Israel's court are considered fair is up for debate, in my personal experience it is sadly not.…

Every revolution in History, including the American Revolution started with such statements, and even more such actions. Following your logic, it was forbidden for the Revolutionists to fight, since there were courts. Some people believed the courts were fair, and others didn't. Same here today.

Israel is a democracy. Imperfect to be sure, but a democracy. The problem you have is your side cannot win enough votes to make policy.

And that is because most Jews reject what you stand for.

Following what your logic, anytime you are in the minority, you have the right to kill.

Do you understand how sick that is?

And America's revolution did not start with leaders calling for the murder of British officials.

Another question, Shmarya. What if the law absolutely forbids you to kill and your God commands you to kill, what to do?

Has God spoken to you lately? Got a letter from Him?

Please.

What about the Jews' invasion to Canaan?

Besides the fact that it never happened, you confuse war with vigilante violence.

[Yisrael Medad]

Shmarya writes in response to my posting of the Rosen original:

And if a beit din does paskin to kill them? Pathetic.

And even if you want to say he means secular courts, those same secular courts have ruled time and time again these actions are legal.

So what does Rozen mean? He means go out and do it yourself. And he should be indicted.

Shmarya, I published the man's words. I criticised the use of "moser". I don't use frothing fomenting conversation. Get a hold of yourself (or get some sleep).

The man did not write what you intimated he did. You are still attempting to extrapolate when what he actually wrote, in its entiretly, is not what you would like people to read in his words. You are over-the-top when all you needed to write is what I did in my post. What rant and rave when he explcitly opposed taking the law into one's own hands?

[Shmarya]

The man did not write what you intimated he did.

Please.

Here is what I wrote:Yes, Rabbi Rozen did say to avoid vigilante attacks, and said it is the job of the courts to enforce the "law" he wants enforced.

Make no mistake about it – Rozen wants Peace Now leaders killed. Rozen knows there are Jews who will understand his message as a coded call for vigilante attacks on Peace Now leaders, and there is a small but significant number of those Jews who may choose to act.Nothing you posted changes that.

[pure sphardic]

Shmarya,
you seem to imply that any minority in any governmant has no say at all in any matter as most people disagree with them. In Israel every political party is a minority, obviously they have a right to express their opinions, why put the boundry at killing, according to your logic it makes perfect sense not to give them rights at all, even to express their opinion.
Following your logic, a minority never has a right tp kill, which is sick as well. Did the Jews being interrogated by the inquistion have a right to kill their interrogaters? Obviouly yes, now you're going to argure that you can't compare, and I'll argue you could, Just like the Christians thought they were doing the Jews an eternal favor while doing what they did.
Regarding the American Revolution, I don't know where you got the word "start". Bottom Line, they killed even though most people disagreed, and thanks to them the world has become a much better place. whether that is what started it is irrelevent.

You ask if God has spoken to me lately, let me ask you, did you keep the Sabbath this week? why, because God spoke to you? or because that is your understanding of God's word, the Torah. He understands God's word to tell him to kill right now, you don't have to agree, but you don't have to hate him for understanding differently then you.

you wrote:
What about the Jews' invasion to Canaan?

"Besides the fact that it never happened, you confuse war with vigilante violence."

I might have interchanged war with violence, but what exactly is the difference?

[Shmarya]

Following your logic, a minority never has a right tp kill, which is sick as well. Did the Jews being interrogated by the inquistion have a right to kill their interrogaters?

Are you serious?

Please.

Medieval Spain was NOT a democracy.

Regarding the American Revolution, I don't know where you got the word "start". Bottom Line, they killed even though most people disagreed, and thanks to them the world has become a much better place. whether that is what started it is irrelevent.

You really have no grasp of this at all.

The Colonies argued that taxation without representation was wrong. There was no democracy.

Past that, American revolutionaries did not commit political assassinations. They fought a war, as an army, against Great Britain. And they only did that after being attacked.

He understands God's word to tell him to kill right now, you don't have to agree, but you don't have to hate him for understanding differently then you.

Rabbi Rozen does not have the ability to bring back to life anyone murdered by his "understanding."

I do not hate Rozen. What I said was he should be indicted. And he should. If found guilty, he should go to jail for a very long time.

I might have interchanged war with violence, but what exactly is the difference?

Are you serious? You see no difference between a war between two states or peoples and a political murder carried out by an individual?

Past that, there is no archaeological evidence to support the "conquest" of Canaan – but there is a vast amount of this evidence against it.

There is no record in any surrounding culture of a "conquest" of Canaan.

In short – it did not happen.

[Jake]

How many people postinghere have actually read the article in Hebrew?

IN the article Rabbi Rosen specifically talks about the punishment the leaders of " Piece " Now will receive.

And it is definetly not any punishment hing that the Rambam has written and does not involve any bloodshed.

If someone would bother to read the whole article, it would be very clear why the Rambam was qouted and it was not to encourage assasination or murder.

But when working from an Englaish translation of a newspaper article referncing a weekly column it is difficult to get it right.

Yisrael Medad is right. Rabbi Rosen was not encouragin taking the law into your own hands. Medad backs up what he says by posting a image of the whole column in the original Hebrew.

Whats strange is nobody is asking, what was really written and why Medad and myself draw the conclusions we have drawn.

The truth is this blog thread is based on a newspaper article that qoutes some passages of a column out of context. giving a partial qoutation of what was written and then translated into English.

So how would these supposed sinners be punished according to Rabbi Rosen?What did R. Rosen specifically say??

How come it seems that other than Medad and myself nobody positng here as read the column?

And how come none of the posters have asked why Medad and I claim that the conclusions drawn here are erroneous?

Oh btw todays Telegraph ( UK ) talks about the role the SAS ( British "Special Sir Service the equivilant of America's Delta Force) has had in neutralizng over 3,500 terrorists in Iraq killing hundreds of individuals affiliated wiht El Qadea. But I thought El Qaeda doesn;t exist in Iraq. Oh well they must have been bolshevicks.

[Shmarya]

What rant and rave when he explcitly opposed taking the law into one's own hands?

Because he doesn't devote much space to that "opposition"– but he does devote a lot of space to the moser canard.

[pure sphardic]

Jake & Yisrael Medad,
you are correct, I just read it, too bad I didn't before. Shmarya was never good with translating anyways, he always leaves it to some one else.
Thanks for pointing it out

[Shmarya]

Again, Rozen does NOT devote much space to saying don't kill – but he does devote a lot of space to saying mesira and kill.

Care to address this?

Of course not.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

What rant and rave when he explcitly opposed taking the law into one's own hands?

Because he doesn't devote much space to that "opposition"– but he does devote a lot of space to the moser canard.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 31, 2008 at 09:07 AM

Would you like to ban sales of Mishne Torah and other codes of Jewish law that mention the fact that Torah law allows extrajudicial execution of traitors and informers who endanger Jewish lives and property (with no opposing opinions quoted and no calls to leave it up to courts)?
Would you like to imprison all the publishers and owners of the religious bookstores?

[Garnel Ironheart]

Yo Jason,

Let's take a step back. Peres and Beilin met with the leadership of the PLO when it was still against Israeli law to do so. Why? Because they felt their end justified the means. The end, of course, was Oslo. To this day they have yet to be tried for breaching this law but since the Oslo Accord is based on this illegal activity, Israel itself is disobeying its own laws by following through with it!

[Rachel Batya]

--What about the Jews' invasion to Canaan?--
Some time ago, I had an online dialog with a politically right wing, Orthodox rabbi regarding the invasion of Canaan. He told me that in the Orthodox world he lives in (Teaneck, NJ), it is understood that the command to wipe out all the Canaanites was a one-time-only command, that it was given because the Canaanites were so thoroughly sinful, that it could never happen again, and that it was never, ever meant to be used as a precedent for violence in the present.

I disagreed with his assessment of the Canaanites and with his attempt to justify the violence altogether, but I was glad to hear that there was some rationale for leaving the event in the distant past, where it belongs.

[pure sphardic]

Rachel,
if I'm not mistaken that is actually the intent of the first Rashi in the torah. Rahsi asks why did the Torah start with the creation and not with the commandments and answers, in order to let people know what to answer when asked how the jews were allowed to invade Canaan.
ברצונו נתנה להם וברצונו נטלה מהם ונתנה לנו
"I'ts all God's, it was his will to give it to them and then it was his will to take it from them and he gave it to us"
Presumably beacuse of their sinful behaviour.

[Jake]

The column of Rabbi Rosen consists of approximatly 580 words.

The first time the word " moser" appears is 320 words into the article.

The main paragraph (one out of nine in total) that deals with moser is paragraph number 7.

Paragraph number 7 is comprised of 104 words. Of the enire paragraph 44 words at the end are dedicated to informing people that no individual has the legal or ethical right to enforce the law of moser.

when Rabbi Rosen qouted the Rambvam he added one word and a prefix ( v'al t ). which explicitly changes the sentence to read Go and DO NOT learn the from th elaws of the Rambam.

Then he qoutes the Rambam's position.

Immediatly after the qoute is over he writes " Chalilah " ( which I will translate as god or heaven forbid) That a person today should take upon himself to enforce the law."
This applies in Israel and outside of Israel.( RE the vagaries of translation it literaly says not in Israel and not outside of the land.)

"These Laws dealing with capital crimes are given to the beit din and it should not even cross anyone's mind to fullfill ( actualize )this Jewsih law even if a warning was given."

" And their punishment will be given over to the heavens.... " term used was shamayim which I have translated as heavens but can put in god or all sorts of things NOT of this world.)

SO Rosen spent 5 paragraphs explaining what was happening legaly and the underlying issue.

In paragraph 6 he describes the actions as " moser"
Pargraph seven he qoutes the Rambam to show the actions qualify as Moser. And very clealry forbids anyone to enforce the law.

(The YNET article makes a mistake in the translation. They wrote courts. In spoken Hebrew in Israel the court system is referrrd to as Beit Mishpat and the column says Beit Din. Beit Din only refers to religious courts)

So to innoculate before the attack. He says an individual may not enforce the law of moser. Then he says that capital crimes are left up to the beit din and then he writes that nobody should think about accutalizing this law.

Rabbi Rosen was extremly clear that the law may not be enforced today by man and that that the moser's punishemnt will be from the heavens.

[Shmarya]

So RAbbi Rozen is guilty of poor judgement, of applying mesira law where it truly does not apply, and of making a case that – post Rabin assassination – should never have been made.

Further, he did it knowing there are people who would read his words and understand them as a coded call to action – even if he himself did not want that action to happen.

And he did it in a volatile atmosphere, like shouting :Fire!" in a crowded theater.

But he was more cautious than the Ynet report indicates.

Should he be indicted?

I'm not as sure as I was before.

Actions like Rozen's will, God forbid, eventually lead to more deaths. And that must be addressed.

[Jake]

According to the Rambam's explanation of Moser, their actions would be considered moser.

Also the YNET hatchet man forgot to report amongst other things in the column that the land in question is disputed and the case is being heard in the civil courts.

[Shmarya]

According to the Rambam's explanation of Moser, their actions would be considered moser.

That is the problem with all this. WE DO NOT PASKEN FROM THE RAMBAM.

Also the YNET hatchet man forgot to report amongst other things in the column that the land in question is disputed and the case is being heard in the civil courts.

Isn't that because it was discovered that the land is largely owned by Arabs?

[avraham rosten]

Shmarya,
Have you read the speechs of the Arab members of the Kneset? I dont understand why they can advocate the destruction of Israel all the time and we are still paying their pensions.

[Shmarya]

They probably should not be in the Knesset or be paid any pension.

[Yisrael Medad]

"They probably should not be in the Knesset or be paid any pension" - Shmarya, even Israel's courts are not listening to you:

Last update - 16:32 01/09/2008
High Court: Ex-MK Bishara will continue to receive his pension
By Haaretz Service

The High Court of Justice on Monday ruled that former MK Azmi Bishara (Balad) will continue to receive his pension benefits and will not be stripped of his citizenship.

Supreme Court President Dorit Beinish and Judges Edna Arbel and Miriam Naor rejected the petition, which claimed that Bishara's citizenship and pension should be revoked because he fled Israel while being investigated for security breaches.

The representative for the state prosecutor, attorney Yochi Gensin, asked the court to reject the petition, noting that the Knesset recently passed legislation regarding MKs who commit security offenses. Gensin added that the petitioners may take their complaint to the interior minister if they wish to do so.

The petition was filed the World Likud, whose chairman, Danny Danon, expressed harsh criticism after the court handed down its ruling. Danon claimed the decision supports what he called the terror that Arab public leaders direct at the Israeli public.

"It is a disgrace that the High Court participated in the interior minister's failure to act against Bishara," said Danon. "We will turn to the interior minister to demand he begin proceedings against Bishara, and if he does not act, we will appeal to the High Court.

Bishara is suspected of having been in contact with Hezbollah intelligence agents during the Second Lebanon War in 2006. They allegedly paid him tens of thousands of dollars for unspecified reasons.

Bishara left Israel in March 2007 and resigned from the Knesset the following month. He has not returned to Israel since then, and is believed to be living in an Arab country. The investigation against him is ongoing.

[Shmarya]

"They probably should not be in the Knesset or be paid any pension" - Shmarya, even Israel's courts are not listening to you…

That's the way it sometimes goes in a democracy.

[Jerome Soller]

Thank you for that reference, Yisrael. It supports my point that there are greater problems to be concerned with in Israel than Yisrael Rozen's statements. I wonder if an Israeli attorney could attach his pension, so it is paid to the victims of his Hizb'Allah friends in Israel.

Jerome

[Jerome Soller]

A clarification on my last post (before I leave the office and actually go home), I was referring to Bishara's pension.

Jerome

[Ex-Orthodox Jew from Israel]

According to what I read in Ariel Sokolovsky's comments Jewish Orthodoxy has nothing to do with humanity or menschlichkeit whatsoever; this is already the case of the Haredi Talebans and the Gush Emunim Nazis.

The more I read statements like those of Mr. Sokolovsky the less I pray for the coming of Moshiach if our country will transformed into a Jewish Iran in those days. At least if the guidelines are to be interpreted by Sokolovsky's sect...

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.BostonChabad.com]

B"H

According to what I read in Ariel Sokolovsky's comments Jewish Orthodoxy has nothing to do with humanity or menschlichkeit whatsoever; this is already the case of the Haredi Talebans and the Gush Emunim Nazis.

The more I read statements like those of Mr. Sokolovsky the less I pray for the coming of Moshiach if our country will transformed into a Jewish Iran in those days. At least if the guidelines are to be interpreted by Sokolovsky's sect...

Posted by: Ex-Orthodox Jew from Israel | September 02, 2008 at 09:38 PM

I am sorry my statements make you feel that way.
I am not a politician. I am a simple person.
It is very hard for me emotionally to say something like:
"Provoking Arabs to attack Jews for many years the way is done by Peace Now is terible however we cannot call for violence against them and would rather pray to G-d for them to do teshuvah as soon as possible etc."

It seems much easier and more straightforward to quote the halacha about mosrim (informers).
I speak in my own name not in the name of Chabad of Israel or Chabad of the USA as a whole.
I am also in a unique situation that I lack nothing and thus am not forced to suck up to people like you to raise money for the work I do.
thus I feel at liberty to speak my mind freely on this and other issues.
In any case I'd be much happier to read that Gen. Yariv Openheimer and his associates in Peace Now have done teshuvah and are fighting to protect the people of Yisrael and Land of Yisrael like Ariel Zilber (http://www.sos-israel.com/index.asp?catID=7019&siteLang=2 and other leftists who have came around than to read that someone threw another grenade at them like the one that was ended the life of Emil Grunzweig at a Peace Now demonstration in 1983. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Grunzweig
)

[Yisrael Medad]

"the Gush Emunim Nazis"?????

Can we have a little bit of semantic decorum here?

If not, can someone locate the concentration camps I have created?

[Yochanan Lavie]

I agree the "nazi" epithet is inappropriate. By overusing it, we are unintentionally trivializing the Shoah. If harmful language is wrong on the Right (as it should be), it should also be considered harmful coming from the Left. But then again, extremes meet in odd ways, including hysterical rhetoric.

(Disclosure: I am a moderate rightie.)

[Avraham Reiss]

A strong spotlight on the Peace Now movement is long, long overdue. Despite its being a devout Extreme Leftist movement, one of those whose every 3rd word is "democracy", the movement itself is totally UNDEMOCRATIC - did you ever hear of elections for the Peace Now leadership? Of course not.

They are registered officially as an organization whose aims are "education". Did you ever see them "educate"?

They never reveal their financial sources, thus strengthening the opinion that they are backed by anti-semitic/anti-Israeli elements of the European community.

I read Rabbi Rosen's original article last Shabat. He was careful not to incite to violence, but as a Rabbi examining the Halachic aspect of the PN's activities and damages, he had every intellectual right to quote Maimonides and to conclude halachically that PN has the din of a moser.