RCA Doublespeak

Rabbi Basil Herring, the EVP of the Rabbinical Council of America, has this to say about Hechsher Tzedek:

"Kosher is kosher, and kosher reflects the requirements of what renders an animal ... acceptable for a Jew to properly eat," said Rabbi Basil Herring, executive vice president of the council. "Of course there are always ethical concerns whether it's regarding food or clothing or furniture ... but it is inappropriate to mix the two realms together."

Furthermore, Herring said labor law is the government's domain: "For a kosher agency or a rabbinic group to take upon itself those responsibilities ... would be enormously complex, inefficient and, frankly, very, very expensive."

[Link.]

Would the cost truly be "very expensive"? I don't think so. Certainly, the costs won't be any more than existing kosher supervision – and the RCA would never label those costs "very expensive."

Also, as we pointed out Thursday, the "it's not our job" excuse flies in the face of the RCA's stated policy:

…As the need has arisen, workers have organized themselves to preserve the dignity of human beings and protect them from exploitation. The RCA is proud to have been one of the first national Rabbinic bodies to have supported the United Farm Workers [union] in their efforts to organize the vineyards and produce fields of California. Similar efforts are underway in other areas of the country where migrant laborers are found.

We therefore resolve that:

The RCA and its member congregations reaffirm their support for the United Farm Workers [union] in their struggle to bring justice to all agricultural laborers.

The RCA strongly supports legislation to ban sweatshop labor and to hold contractors responsible for any subcontractor exploiting their workers.

The RCA and its constituents shall speak out vigorously whenever human dignity is compromised by unsafe working conditions.

Either the RCA views abuses by businesses that produce specifically kosher food (and that pay the OU a large amount of money annually) with a much kinder eye than it views equal abuses from businesses that produce other goods and services, or the RCA word means nothing.

The truth is, both are probably accurate.

Comments

[rebitzman]

++but it is inappropriate to mix the two realms together." ++

I've asked this before - and have yet to get an answer, but will try again:

Really?

Why?

[Rachel Batya]

--"For a kosher agency or a rabbinic group to take upon itself those responsibilities ... would be enormously complex, inefficient and, frankly, very, very expensive."--

You mean, we might actually have to give up some cold hard cash in the course of pursuing tzedek? G-d forbid.

[Rachel Batya]

++but it is inappropriate to mix the two realms together." ++

-- Really? Why? --

My dear (rebitz)man, don't you remember when your kids were small, and you served them dinner, and they insisted that the various types of food on their plate not touch? Same thing.

[rebitzman]

++You mean, we might actually have to give up some cold hard cash in the course of pursuing tzedek?++

You mean - in the pursuit of kosher we aren't already?

[rabbidw]

Does this mean that the OU will give a hechsher on the Glatt Yacht even though it has mixed dancing? Speaking of which, does it lift its hechsher if the catering hall allows mixed dancing at weddings bar/bat mitzvahs and assorted dinners?

[Rachel Batya]

--You mean - in the pursuit of kosher we aren't already?--

Yes. That's why it's not worth the money. Do you see the method to their madness?

[Isaac Balbin]

Process this.

The post would have to be one of the more unconvincing examples I have read. I see no evidence it wouldn't cost heaps, and I see no contradiction to the RCA charter.

[David S. Gruber]

I read recently, and I can't remember where (I think it was the website of the Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv in Hebrew) that about a third of restaurants in Jerusalem (where it is economic suicide not to have a regular hechsher) also have a "hechsher" like the Hechsher Tzedek. Apparently, there are enough people who demand this, and won't eat at a restaurant that doesn't have it.

If it is possible to do this in Israel, why not here?

[EndingSuperstition]

there is another approach in dealing with RCA/chabad types.

rather than rationally pointing out their mobster issues one may use the na-nach solution.

the na-nach cult is even sillier than chabad and its the only way i can offend chabad apostles on the street in midtown.

its also useful if you are in any kinda meeting with govt officials and a chabad guy in the getup to start clapping and singing the na-nach mantra as if its an ancient jewish rite and isn't it nice that we can all sing it together.

[Shmarya]

Process this.

The post would have to be one of the more unconvincing examples I have read. I see no evidence it wouldn't cost heaps, and I see no contradiction to the RCA charter.

I guess the part about "speaking out vigorously" against unsafe working conditions, and the part about supporting unionization of exploited workers went right over what passes for your head.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H

Process this.

The post would have to be one of the more unconvincing examples I have read. I see no evidence it wouldn't cost heaps, and I see no contradiction to the RCA charter.

I guess the part about "speaking out vigorously" against unsafe working conditions, and the part about supporting unionization of exploited workers went right over what passes for your head.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 24, 2008 at 12:18 PM

1st of all I don't know where does the Torah support unions and I despice RCA shameless pandering to the leftwing however Isaac Bablin is right, it is a not a contradiction.
Speaking out vigorously from time to time presumably based on the media reports is one thing setting up ones own supervision of "ethical standards"
and running it is something else and is much more expensive.

[EndingSuperstition]

this issue is messy only because people are unwilling to define the terms clearly.

if we define 'chabad' as not jewish then the rest becomes a bit easier.

we don't care what chabad says about us in the same way that we don't care what mormons say about us.

if you put feed a pig kosher food and make the pig not play video games during its local saturday (assuming the swine in question isn't near the north or south pole) the pig is still not jewish.

oh yeah another thing i saw during the 'ivy league torah study program' was that rabbis started to kiss the students.

i couldn't recognize that type of homosexual then but its really obvious now.

some of the visiting rabbis theredid tell me privately that the rebbe had experimented with homosexuality while in paris but 'has done teshuva so he has the additional merit of a baal tshuva'.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

1st of all I don't know where does the Torah support unions

I don't know where in the Torah it says that Moshiach will be a senile and demented guy in an Al Capone fedora who will come back to life.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

The Ariel Sokolovsky Boston Chabad website is a fraudulent takeoff of the true website of Boston Chabad. I am shocked that a lunatic like you is allowed to usurp Jewish student services to kids in Boston colleges.

A few tidbits from your site:

"...emissaries will also try to introduce you to our belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the Moshiach (Messiah), but again you'll not be forced to do anything..."

"...Geula Investment Trust..."
[I'm sure I can trust my money with you, Ariel]

"...Moshiach Info Center..."
This is what you are telling impressionable kids in Boston?

The true website for Boston Chabad is chabadboston.org. Your sleazy takeoff on that web address is unconscionable.
I cannot believe Rabbi Posner sanctions what you are doing. Rabbi Posner was appointed there by the Rebbe himself about two decades ago, and has spend his career there promoting Yiddishkheit and all good things Jewish to the college kids of Boston. I will call him this week and ask him what your role there is.

In the meanwhile, it should be apparent to all on this site that your head is firmly entrenched up the rubashkin family's collective tuches.

"I see no evidence it wouldn't cost heaps, and I see no contradiction to the RCA charter."

Well, if the rabbis do the same crackerjack job of overseeing the ethical treatment of workers as the they do overseeing the quality of the shechittah, I can't see how it would cost them any additional money at all.

[Rachel Batya]

Oops, sorry, that last sardonic comment was mine.

[rebitzman]

++if we define 'chabad' as not jewish then the rest becomes a bit easier.++

The "chabad" of Ariel Sokolovsky can EASILY be so defined.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Thanks rebitzman, your are wise.

[Rachel Batya]

--1st of all I don't know where does the Torah support unions--

Where does the Torah say that we have to separate milk and meat and keep separate dishes? It doesn't. It says not to boil a kid in its mother's milk. We extrapolate from there. We don't suggest that the Torah is saying that we simply shouldn't eat Cream of Beef soup.

Where does the Torah tell us not to lift, tear, build, buy, or sell anything on Shabbos? It doesn't. It says to do no work on Shabbos, and we extrapolate from previous passages that describe the building of the mishkan i.e. that we shouldn't do any work on Shabbos that we did to build the Mishkan.

Here is what the Torah has to say about the ethical treatment of workers:

Vayikra 19:13: "Don't defraud your fellow nor rob him; don't leave the worker's wages by you until morning."

D'varim 24:14-15: "Don't defraud the hired worker, poor and needy, from among your brothers, or from the stranger in your land, in your gates. On the same day give him his wage, let not the sun set on it. For he is poor, and he has his soul set on it; lest he cry against you unto God, and it be considered to you a sin."

So, now, extrapolate. Think. Let your imagination run free. You accept a whole complex series of laws based on a single line in Torah regarding kashrut and Shabbos, but you can't imagine the implications of these passages?

[endingsuperstition]

"think...extrapolate."

sorry that doesn't apply to the torah-daily law connection.

electricity isn't fire.
richard feynman said so.
its basic chem.

so clear logical thinking will only serve to make you realize the halachic superstitions are just silly.

[Ariel Sokolovsky BostonChabad.com]

B"H
Rachel Batya
Extortion is against the letter and spirit of the Torah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Criticism

If you want to write support for unions into the Torah why not also interpret it to for example encourage shoplifting as long as person is too poor to pay?
What about checkpoints for expropriating exspensive cars and other luxury items from the rich for distribution to the poor?
(see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expropriation
)

[Rachel Batya]

Extortion, shoplifting, and forced expropriation--nice try. Except of course that at Yovel, there ought to be quite a lot of redistribution of wealth occuring. A radical notion, with which I will not further trouble you at this time.

Back to my question:

Why is it is perfectly fine to extrapolate an entire body of laws regarding kashruth and shabbos from the shorthand that is Torah, but it is not fine to extrapolate support for unionizing workers, which is the way that a great many U.S. workers in the past 100 years have been able to enjoy their G-d given rights as required by Torah?

[WoolSIlkCotton]

Rachel Batya: You are arguing with a mental patient who should be in a strait jacket.
Sokolovsky: Even Getzel eventually learned that when you have dug a hole too deep, you should stop digging and get out.

[WoolSIlkCotton]

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/ariel_sokolovsky.htm

http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=112

[state of the Jews]

Excuse me for interupting, but Hechsher Tzedek does not call for or demand, the automatic recognition of unions. It does call for the enforcement of US labor law, including the recognition of worker rights to a fair union election, free of employer interference and threats.

Workers at Agri were routinely threatened with retaliation for even speaking with a union representative - something which is a blatantly violation of US labor law. But the penalties for such violations are so minimal as to have no inpact.

That is why, contrary to Agri pr spin, there has never been an attempt to hold a union election at the Postville facility.

BTW, some of the workers who met with the Conservative Movement Commission of Inquiry were later fired - they had been warned "not to speak to the Rabbis." If they treat free, unmonitored conversations w Rabbis this way, how do you think the regard worker discussions with union representatives?

One final note: The day after the last charges have been adjudicated and everyone leaves Postville, who will be in Postville to look out for the interests of the workers? Rav Wiessmandl? Rabbis Mandel and Geneck? Or maybe Pesach Lerner?

Whatever else has been written about the Postville scandal, one thing is absolutely clear: the owners of this plant are ethically blind when it comes to the treatmnent of their workers.

[rebitzman]

++I don't know where in the Torah it says that Moshiach will be a senile and demented guy in an Al Capone fedora who will come back to life.++

It should be noted that while Chabad would never so refer to the Rebbe as you did - their official position is that he was not Moshiach.

That said - there do seem to be a lot of them who didn't get the memo.

[rebitzman]

++If you want to write support for unions into the Torah++

Ariel - this is possibly the most lame argument you've ever made (and you have made a LOT of lame arguments).

Unions aren't MENTIONED in the Torah - ergo, while there is nothing there supporting them - neither is their anything forbidding them.

Computers aren't "supported" by the Torah either - yet you seem to use one.

[rebitzman]

++BTW, some of the workers who met with the Conservative Movement Commission of Inquiry were later fired ++

Interesting -do you have a name or two?

[Isaac Balbin]

Shmarya, why is it that you need to indulge in ad hominem attack in order to make your points "vigourously?" I'd have to say that this is also one of the unfortunate lows that you demonstrate as a blogger and I don't think that you need to stoop to such a level. Why do it? Do you achieve anything except people treating what you say with derision?

Let's again process what you wrote: I guess the part about "speaking out vigorously" against unsafe working conditions, and the part about supporting unionization of exploited workers went right over what passes for your head.

There are two points to be made

a) there are allegations and there are facts. we haven't got birrur at this stage on all this. We certainly have "kol"

b) the point about speaking out vigourously is surely to achieve an end! given that the RCA has been achieving such an end behind the scenes (and you dispute that of course) then I'd suggest they have no need to "speak out" more vigourously at this stage.

Have a good day, Shmarya

[rebitzman]

state of the jews - I am asking because my rabbi (Conservative) has had conversations with people inside Rubashkins - continues to do so with the knowledge (granted - NOT The blessing) of at least one of the Rubashkins.

I just confirmed - he is still employed.

If they are actually canning people over this - I would like to warn all involved.

[rebitzman]

++My dear (rebitz)man, don't you remember when your kids were small, and you served them dinner, and they insisted that the various types of food on their plate not touch?++

Actually.....no.

But it was a nice metaphor.

[state of the Jews]

Will try and get you a name or two tomorrow.
But yes, workers have been fired who were suspected of having contact with people the Rubashkin's don't like.

I believe the fired Latino workers left the area.

1) Keep in mind these were undocumented Hispanic workers - NOT Jewish employees.
2) Given the state of operations at Agri they need all the experienced employees they can lay their hands on. If friend of your Rabbi has experience, he/she may not be in any immediate danger. But, the situation is quite unstable and can change in a heartbeat.

[steve]

Allowing workers to unionize is indeed mentioned in the Torah. It was in last week's parsha. The mitzvah of "Veasita Hayashar Vehatov" means "and you shall do what is right and good." This includes several mitzvos which deal with common courtesy and human decency. The Torah cannot list each and every situation and therefore this mitzvah teaches us that we must deal properly with our fellow man, even when the exact situation is not spelled out. Read the Ramban on this passuk.

[Shmarya]

a) there are allegations and there are facts. we haven't got birrur at this stage on all this. We certainly have "kol"

b) the point about speaking out vigourously is surely to achieve an end! given that the RCA has been achieving such an end behind the scenes (and you dispute that of course) then I'd suggest they have no need to "speak out" more vigourously at this stage.

Point a is for the most part, false. Agri was cited and given the largest fines in state history for running an unsafe workplace.

It was cited again a few months later for 31 violations, many serious, some repeat – including a hole in the kill floor large enough to swallow a man.

For you, these are merely allegations – even though Agri agreed to the first round of citations and fines.

And that is your problem.

As for point b, nothing has changed. Over and over and over again, we bring proof of extortion of workers, abuse and mistreatment. You, big chief Isaac Balbin, Chabad apologist, ignores all this.

You also seem to be ignoring the 31 citations Agri just got, the 57 cases of child labor violations, and so much more.

If you can't see the RCA double standard here than I'm afraid no one can help you.

[Isaac Balbin]

Did you read what I wrote? Not carefully. I said we don't have birrur on all this.

Another personal attack. Why am I a "big chief" Shmarya?

As for Chabad apologist, those who know me will be rolling around with laughter at that allegation.

b) is certainly the issue and now that some things have been put in place and the court system still has to play out, time will tell whether the RCA's shout has had an effect or not.

Be well Shmarya, and please stop throwing stones. It's not becoming.

[Shmarya]

Did you read what I wrote? Not carefully. I said we don't have birrur on all this.

We may not have birrur on all of this, Isaac, but we do have birrur on a lot of it – and that is what you so blithely ignore.

is certainly the issue and now that some things have been put in place and the court system still has to play out, time will tell whether the RCA's shout has had an effect or not.

The RCA has done nothing, Isaac. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

As for the court system playing out, again, you ignore what has already played out.

Shmarya, if you think the RCA has not been doing anything behind the scenes, I'd suggest you are naive. Shouting is a means, not an end. I'd suggest in a year's time, this issue will be done and dusted. Whether it's the outcome you are expecting, I don't know.

[WoolSilkCotton]

All of you rubashkin brown-nosers, completely disconnected from reality, are just blowing smoke. You know the indictments are coming.
When your chassidic heroes are led away in handcuffs, you'll just keep making more excuses.
Meanwhile, keep screaming antisemitism.

[Paul Freedman]

Hechsher Tzeddik's requirements are more than avoidance of worker abuse but a laundry list of proposed proactive steps to be taken in areas of worker conditions, diversity and equal opportunity mandates and targeted compliance with prior legislation--the legal theory behind the diversity requirements for example, could require quota hiring of non-Jews in management positions.

The problem of the costs in somebody setting themselves up as the arbiters of social kashrut do not exhaust the problematic costs, namely the costs in implementing.

This is unrelated to the correctness of RCA continuing not to directly address not failures to engage in proscriptive policies but a history of citations from the authorities of the law of the land, clear negatives rather than ambiguous positives.

[state of the Jews]

"Hechsher Tzeddik's requirements are more than avoidance of worker abuse but a laundry list of proposed proactive steps to be taken in areas of worker conditions, diversity and equal opportunity mandates and targeted compliance with prior legislation--the legal theory behind the diversity requirements for example, could require quota hiring of non-Jews in management positions."

Hechsher Tzedek is not a piece of legislation being proposed for passage by state and/or federal legislatures which your post seems to imply. In any event the Courts have already ruled out requiring religious organizations to hire people of a different faith to work in religiously sensitive positions (see recent rulings involving social workers for example).

"The problem of the costs in somebody setting themselves up as the arbiters of social kashrut do not exhaust the problematic costs, namely the costs in implementing."

This is an interesting argument Paul. What you are arguing for is the continuation of public subsidy for businesses that would otherwise not be able to compete in the marketplace because they cannot meet the costs of operating responsibly. Your same argument can be used to support the hiring of undocumented illegals at lower then industry norm wages. Such actions amount to a society sanctioned subsidy (we'll keep the cost of kosher meat down (or increase our profits) if we don't pay a fair wage, cheat the government out of taxes, have workers pay into a social security system they will never use, etc. The cost of implementation, is the cost of honesty. Finally, in our economy, it is perfectly legal for businesses to fail. If you can shecht a chicken cheaper and better then Empire, Vineland or David Elliot, and do so legally, then Empire, Vineland and David Elliot will go out of business. Its a rough game, but that is how it is played when the playing field is level.

[Paul Freedman]

state, not at all, although I appreciate your contribution: as there are laws on the books, I'm suggesting that the conditions of the Hechsher Tzedek go *beyond* what is required by current law in the area of minority and disability access and diversity hiring

As for the problem of any company implementing requirements of the hechsher tzeddik that elaborate upon existing legislation and requirements, the suggestion was that unfunded mandates can be difficult for firms that are trying to do the right thing and are not trying to cut corners by, say, labor policies that seem in part to be based on nickel and dimeing your workforce--some of AgriP's practices ensemble suggest management gone seriously awry, almost as if the company decided to "bust out" its own working assets--

I work in providing services to disabled under a federal mandate that was in large measure unfunded and it is a headache.

But laws are laws. AgriP is in trouble imo *not* because it failed to be cutting edge in proactive if expensive areas of labor law but because it just went out and violated negative prohibitions to cut costs--my argument is not that laws should be violated and lawbreakers tolerated but that the social horizon of the hechsher tzeddik is expansive and goes beyond current law and that, additionally, yes, in coming up with regulations we need to budget for them.

[Paul Freedman]

the draft platform is up and easy to get through so anyone can make up their own mind if the hechsher is a reasonable implementation of de minima social standards/customs/law of the land for a kosher enterprise or whether its bullet-point definition of the package of same goes beyond that, is derived from "political" post-Christian secular ethics of state intervention and, my suggestion, may (unwittingly?) contradict the Jewish parochial claims of exemption you cite maintained by courts

This is not a defense of AgriP's labor practices or safety violations etc.

[state of the Jews]

Paul:
I think it is disingenuous to assume the worse - that HT would require the hiring of lets say, non-Jewish bodkim.
As to the issue of cost. The HT has as yet not announced how the HT will be funded. Most of the orthodox community assume that funding would be per the OU and other orthodox hechsher model. There are other ways to finance such a program that won't compromise the independence of the mashgichim. Use your imagination. Everyone assumes HT will add substantially to the cost of the product and that simply isn't true.
Finally, there are people in the frum community who have recently said they would not allow their symbol to appear on packages that carry the HT. I asked an owner of a very large kosher food company about this and he laughed. There are over 300 hechsher granting organizations in the US alone and they are always looking to get their foot in the door. IF "A" won't do it, "B" will. And the state of kashrus observance in this country is such that the average kosher consumer really doesn't care whose symbol is on the package as long as their is a symbol. The perfect example is Hebrew National. Frum yidden may not accept the hechsher on Hebrew National product, but everyone else does.

[Paul Freedman]

state: thanks for your response, well, I am concerned the HT is more potentially adventurous than you do for product cost. Have you read the draft?

As HT *is* voluntary I have a question for you going in the opposite direction--let's say that the Orthodox, even frum receptivity to cooperating with the nascent HT as it develops turns out to be robust--so it becomes a socially-recognized standard in a proactive positive sense--

that would not mean, or would it, that a firm that does not wish to qualify for HT (for example, a manufacturer paying an average to low wage with acceptable working conditions but states it can't afford health care insurance, an HT requirement) is undeserving of any certification?

[Paul Freedman]

...the very comprehensiveness of the HT nags at me, I'm wondering if the "religious" function of it is not, at bottom, disingenuous, you disagree on the plausibility of that. My issue then would not be the HT as an additional voluntary standard but as a political wedge or coercive standard--again, you say no.

[state of the Jews]

"Have you read the draft?"
Yes.

Your next points are the very issues the Conservative Movement is struggling with. What happens if someone qualifies in all areas but one? Does the CM grant HT or is there a provisional step?
Most companies today require employee contributions to healthcare - what is a fair percentage of salary to ask an employee to contribute?
I think all of these issues are up for discussion and they are issues society has not answered for itself, much less for HT. In many ways this puts HT at the cutting edge of social policy in this country and it is social policy rooted in Jewish law and tradition. That scares the hell out of the frum community. The CM may have found a way to become extremely relevant in the lives of stam Yiddin and this could draw thousands to its ranks. As one OU rabbi is reported to have said, "if it brings one Jew to kashrut, I'm in favor of it."

[state of the Jews]

BTW, Paul.
The Torah has a pretty comprehensive discussion on the employment areas covered by HT. A number of years ago, the Jewish Labor Committee produced an overview called "Labor Rights in the Jewish Tradition." For those who are interested, I think it is still in print. It is a scholarly piece, well footnoted (Nedarim, Baba Batra, Baba Metzia, etc) . Also for those so inclined I suggest "The Jewish Concept of Labor" by Simon Federbush, published by Torah Cluture Department of the Jewish Agency and Hapoel Hamizrachi in 1956. These are great guides for learning - if people want to learn.
Have to go - still have earn a living.

[rebitzman]

++All of you rubashkin brown-nosers, completely disconnected from reality, are just blowing smoke. You know the indictments are coming.
When your chassidic heroes are led away in handcuffs, you'll just keep making more excuses.
Meanwhile, keep screaming antisemitism.++

Wool = I want Agri cleaned up as much as anyone as I have for years depended on it for meat (suspended since the raid) - but I have to say that I fail to see how your mocking vitriol is any better than the posts you are railing against.

In the end - and when the dust settles, this is going to be settled by rational heads - not a lynch mob mentality.

[Paul Freedman]

state, but less expansively in focus, do you think it is meaningful at all, HT's effort to one side, to suggest a provisional separation in "technical dietary" kashrus from an expanded concept of kashrus-kedushiin? Assuming that the HT goes forward as drafted can a firm, in your opinion, voluntarily forgo the HT, state that it doesn't want to go for it, and still, halachically merit the certificates of kashrus offered by the varying agencies? That is, are these certifications, made in the absence of HT, halachically meaningful/valid by you. More expansively, HT aside, where do you come down, generally, on the fundamental and intrinsic connection between kashrus and the labor conditions of those employed to produce the product or staff the warehouse, restaurant, etc.?

I think in practical terms AgriP reached a tipping point between April and May in its relations with Iowa and federal authorities. Yellow flags were misinterpreted.

[Paul Freedman]

HaPoel HaMIzrachi's sponsorship not incidental

do they still have an active kibbutz movement?

[anonymous]

Is it necessary to create a whole new structure? would it not be easieer and more direct to simply state we live in a coutry of rules. Thsoe who violate these rules, will not be granted our kashrut approval.
Obviously, the rules , what consitutes a violation, how one can redeem one's self etc. will need to be defined.

There is no need to create a whole new edifice.

many of us, who do not drink halav Israel, already rely on the govermen to set standards. why not here too?

[Yochanan Lavie]

"There is no need to create a whole new edifice."

But Judaism has an Edifice Complex.