Modesty Patrols and Vigilante Violence

Read it here.

Comments

[Archie Bunker]

Par for the course. Shmarya takes legitimate complaints and spins them into a deceitful web to delegitimize all orthodox Jews AND all of orthodox Judaism that he so bitterly regrets he was a part of for 20 years.

[rebitzman]

++Shmarya takes legitimate complaints++

Segregated seating on a public bus is a "legitimate complaint"?

So much material - so little time.

[Harold F]

How about acid thrown on women?

[Sam]

I linked to this article from Feministe as well as from my own blog. Excellent work, Shmarya, as usual.

[Shmarya]

Thanks, Sam!

[yidandahalf]

Shmarya, good work but genig with the South thing, OK?

[yidandahalf]

Oh, I forgot to add for rebbitzman's benefit, YEE HAW. Sorry.

[rebitzman]

++Oh, I forgot to add for rebbitzman's benefit, YEE HAW. Sorry.++

Apology accepted.

[Sam]

The Israeli government should have known from day one that a democratic country cannot adopt religious laws. Democracy and religion are contradictory in nature. That's why some stories coming out of Israel (like these) are similar to those coming out of Iran.

Now that they've gotten themselves into this mess they have to deal with it.

[Ariel Sokolovsky [ Blueprint for a better world => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTD6sN5DtA]

B"H
"The Israeli government should have known from day one that a democratic country cannot adopt religious laws. Democracy and religion are contradictory in nature."
The state of Israel was established with this contradiction built into its foundation.
It is "Jewish and democratic"
Rabbi Meir Kahane Hy"d dedicates a number of chapters in his book "Israel Revolution or Referendum" (which is now available to read online)to this contradiction:
http://kahane.org/books/revolution.htm

[Yochanan Lavie]

Religion can be part of a democracy, as long as it is not involved in government. Theocracy and democracy are incompatible, not religion per se and democracy. Our founding fathers, many of whom were Deists themselves, saw value in having a vague civil religion that recognizes a Creator to help cement social cohesion. At the same time, they knew of the perils of an established church.

The American arrangement has worked well. Religion is better as a seperate, sometimes oppositional, force to government (see the role of churches and some synagogues in the Civil Rights movement of the south). Government works well when it is secular yet respectful of religion.

Europe has the worst of both worlds: discredited established churches that are looked upon as part of the corrupt "establishment" and an anomic ultra-secular population that is falling well below reproduction levels (no hope for the future).

Like most believers, I support freedom of conscience. I deplore talibanistic ways, whether of Jews or Muslims (or anyone else). As John Milton observed in "Areopagitica" God gave Adam free will because he desires Man's free offering of love. That which is obtained by force has no value (because it's insincere; under duress).

[Baruch Atta]

"...The American arrangement has worked well..."
Well, Yochanan, that is up to debate.
My humble opinion is that almost all of the "religious" laws or blue laws in this country (now almost fully abolished) were hardly a problem. For example, closing liquor stores on Sunday. Not an issue. Lord's prayer in school - also not a problem. I a Jewish child is in public school, that right there would be a mistake; if he hears a goyishe prayer not an issue. Never was for millions.
The biggest issue with Church and State in this country never came from the State side, it came from the Church (and Synagogue and Mosque) side. That is, from the clergy that wants and wanted to impose on the rest of us.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Baruch: Points well taken. Like Churchill said of democracy, it's the worst system except for all the others. Democracy requires vigilance... and tweaking.