Israeli Version Of Hechsher Tzedek Grows Exponentially, Report Says

It's called B'Maaglei Tzedek. It;s Modern Orthodox. So far, it only supervises restaurants. It claims almost 1/3 of all Jerusalem restaurants are now under its supervision. And today, it is profiled…

…in the Christian Science Monitor:

…"You would not believe how many people ask whether we have the seal," says Navah Bibi, who runs Little Jerusalem, a bistro with a huge patio garden. "At least as many as those who ask to see our 'normal' kosher credentials," she says, pointing out the two certificates, sitting side by side on the reception desk. "It has been a surprise."…

…Bemaaglei Tzedek has moved out of Banner's living room into a cramped office, taken on 14 paid workers, and has dozens of volunteers and a budget of $500,000, all from private donations. The organization – whose name translates as Circles of Justice – is having a ripple effect. Two satellite offices have opened, and, in total, 380 seals have been awarded – spread across seven cities, two university campuses, and several kibbutzim.

Staff and volunteers from the organization recruit new restaurants, check up on them on a monthly basis, and do outreach in the larger community to explain the significance of the project. A media campaign to convince people not to patronize businesses that don't have the seal further drives home the message. One commercial shows diners happily eating, but when the camera pans out, it becomes apparent the tables are actually other people on all fours. "Don't eat on the backs of others," a voice intones.…

The image of diners eating off the backs of exploited workers is an apt one in light of the most recent Agriprocessors / Rubashkin scandal.

We should make an American version of the commercial and release it on the Internet.

Anyone interested in funding it?

IN ISRAEL, KOSHER EXTENDS BEYOND THE KITCHEN.

In Israel, kosher extends beyond the kitchen.pdf

[Hat Tip: Ben Max.]

Comments

[Paul Freedman]

But does this relate to your earlier discussions?

a) it's Orthodox and

b) it's not an attempt from your quote to regulate kosher producers and dictate industrial standards in comparison to the stated goals of the would be certifiers here--it doesn't seem to have anything to do with plant workers, exploited or coseted or otherwise

[Paul Freedman]

that is it's not a version of Heksher Tzeddik nor does it share its central concerns if it is restricted to the restaurant trade and not manufacturers of food product

[steve]

It's a step in the right direction. This will lead to similar supervisions in factories and slaughterhouses all over the world.

[Paul Freedman]

by whom do you think? and of what? all labor conditions? Setting norms for manufacturing is not the same as ensuring your kitchen help and waitering staff are treated with dignity. Complicating matters is that in the United States, by circumstance and by direct choice, the workforce is overwhelmingly non-Jewish

[steve]

by whom do you think?

Either by the kashrus agencies themselves (highly unlikely) or by an oversight agency similar to Maagalei Tzedek (more likely)

and of what?

All products requiring kosher supervision.

all labor conditions?

Yes.

[rebitzman]

++a) it's Orthodox and ++

Exactly.....

And?

[Shmarya]

by whom do you think? and of what? all labor conditions? Setting norms for manufacturing is not the same as ensuring your kitchen help and waitering staff are treated with dignity. Complicating matters is that in the United States, by circumstance and by direct choice, the workforce is overwhelmingly non-Jewish

I don't see the problem here, Paul.

B'Maaglei Tzedek started to address the problem that its founders saw.

Hechsher Tzedek started the same way.

B'Maaglei Tzedek will eventually cover industrial food production.

Hechsher Tzedek will eventually cover restaurants.

In Israel, the restaurant problem is much larger than in the US, and the industrial food production problem is smaller, so B'Maaglei Tzedek attacked the biggest problem first.

In the US, the biggest problem is industrial food production, and Hechsher Tzedek is attacking that first.

I don't see a dichotomy at all.

[sage]

This is clearly "Serendipity" of a very positive nature.

[Paul Freedman]

as far as orthodox vs conservative (here) the problem would be technical expertise and religious background credible to the producers, or for that, primary consumers.

Shmarya--

I don't see that Hechsher Tzedek has demonstrated the resource base to ramp up to permit oversight in any more depth than OU has--regulation is easy to propose but resource intensive to actually carry out beyond semi-voluntary or de-facto voluntary standards and spot checks.

I still don't see that Heksher Kashrus is an issue of kashrus per se, a project to apply Jewish kashrus norms to industry norms to arrive at guidelines that are tailored to the industrial necessities of kosher slaughter--the pamphlet seems more like a program for universal application of labor guidelines in all fields, working conditions, salary, and benefits for general kadushin.

But let's say you buy into it, even accepting the premise wouldn't a multiple number of inspectors, negotiators, experts would be required to propose, negotiate, and verify than the OU functionaries you think are falling down on the job? These guys are proposing a program that encompasses large swaths of labor-employee relations, is there anything more now than a blog, a front man, and a pocket office staff?

[sage]

If Bemaaglei Tzedek is successful in its implementation phase, much will be learned that could be copied by Hechsher Tzedek here in the US.

No need to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

[Shmarya]

wouldn't a multiple number of inspectors, negotiators, experts would be required to propose, negotiate, and verify than the OU functionaries you think are falling down on the job? These guys are proposing a program that encompasses large swaths of labor-employee relations, is there anything more now than a blog, a front man, and a pocket office staff?

They haven't even opened yet, and you want them to have hundreds of inspectors on staff?

HT has been very clear. These inspections will be done by independent third party auditors – not by rabbis.

If you go the HT blog and look on the right sidebar, there is link to al pi din. Read that. It will answer the rest of your questions.

[Paul Freedman]

The question of what is the purpose of this seal--is there an integral relation with what Orthodox Jews view, in a socially majority way, as normative kashrus, is also echoed for the original, which is not recognized by the religious "establishment" but, if that is considered trivial, is not really a seal that designates a kosher establishment at all in the traditional religious sense it is granted to clearly non-kosher establishments:

"Banner's kosher social seal is not recognized by the traditional religious establishment (and nonkosher, in the dietary sense, restaurants can also get the social seal). But it's nonetheless catching on, with dozens of new restaurants contacting Bemaaglei Tzedek every week to inquire about it. In Jerusalem, where awareness of the seal is strongest, nearly one-third of all restaurants have a social seal today, according to Banner...."

Since this seal is freely distributed to non-kosher establishments couldn't we say that this is really a social justice seal that rides piggy-back on notions of kashrus?

[Shmarya]

Read the Hechsher Tzedek al pi din document.

[Paul Freedman]

Who pays?

As a non-orthodox secular Jew my take was that Al Pi Din anchored a lot of prophetic aspirations to stretched justification, deriving arguments for social justice independently of animal welfare concerns that are more convincingly tied to kashrus, and then simply assuming that all the concerns fell under the same conceptual mantle. But assuming the practicality of third-party auditors I think that this is not demonstrated, that kedushiin in a general tzeddik/tikkun sense is inextricable to kashrus certification--indeed, as noted above, in Israel the corresponding seal is given to non-kosher concerns, restaurants that are not kosher.

[Paul Freedman]

Abraham Heschel?

[Paul Freedman]

But sure, I think traditionally-schooled students and scholars should for sure take a look at the Al Pi Din and see what they make of it.

[Shmarya]

Paul –

This isn't a complex issue.

1. The Torah mandates laws of kashrut.

2. The Torah mandates laws for treating workers.

You seem to think #1 is inherently halakhic while #2 is not.

As for what is being done in Israel,B'maaglei Tzedek supervises #2. It does not supervise #1. Since both are Torah requirements, B'maaglei Tzedek will supervise even in places that do not have supervision for #1.

That is a halakhic choice, much in the way some kashrut agencies would not supervise the food at a restaurant with mixed dancing, but others will.

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

Off topic:

If anyone has access to guidestar can you please look up "Hamaspik" - they have several chapters, I think all registered as independent 503C's called Hamaspik and the County name (Hamaspik Of Rockland County etc - they have Kings, Rockland and Orange) please contact me.

Also, someone tells me the Kolko affair is far more dirtier than so far reported. Someone caliming to "know it all" says many testimonies were thrown out of the window, and that there is some major fiscal shmutz that Kolko knows about Margo, that's why they don't want to talk and why Margo must cover Kolko. And whatever happened to Framowitz? Was the allowed to testify despite SOL?

[Shmarya]

There was no trial, Joe. The DA let Kolko plead to two counts of endangering the welfare of a child.

The Jewish Week had a series of great articles about this written by Hella Winston and Larry Cohler-Esses.

[steve]

I don't think the civil suit has been settled or thrown out yet.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya--then why are the Israeliis calling their certificate kashrus? Exactly.

I'm sitpulating that 2 is halachic but of a different type and genus than for #1 and I am saying that there is confusion of the two types/species/spheres of halachic requirements by those who wish to encourage #2 using the positive connotations of #1 as a social institution, even if they end up disregarding clearly non-kosher conditions when it comes time to hand out their heksher (in Israel). If as in Israel you are not supervising #1, indeed, you are giving your certificate to non-kosher restaurants, why call this any kind of kashrus--if you want to call your certificate "kashrus" this or that I would think you must insist de minima on the "dietary" kashrus of your institution--if you don't then I don't think that the criticism of intellectual dishonesty is unfair.

[Paul Freedman]

No orthodox institutions, not a one, would offer any kind of kashrus, by way of example, to a restaurant that was actually "dietary"-wise, non-kosher as is done by the Israeli organization cited. There would be zero certification.

[Paul Freedman]

From an orthodox perspective how can a certifying organization claim to promote #2, call it heksher, while condoning violation of the de minima (dietary) base line of kashrus? From what I read, they are not only certifying places that have no supervision, they are certifying places that by the intention of the owners can not *have* supervision as they are non-kosher as to menu, seating and social arrangements to one side.

[rebitzman]

++From an orthodox perspective how can a certifying organization claim to promote #2, call it heksher, while condoning violation of the de minima (dietary) base line of kashrus?++

Turn it around - and answer the same question.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rebitzman,
because Kosher in Halacha, and the need for supervision, applies particularly to dietary laws, as does the term Hechsher.

The supervision and certification of other areas of Halacha, and the use of that as a factor in whether or not to eat the food is a novel concept.

[rebitzman]

++The supervision and certification of other areas of Halacha, and the use of that as a factor in whether or not to eat the food is a novel concept.++

Not, however, a bad idea.

I keep a tightly kosher home - and absolutely love my trips to Chicago (where I am now) so that I can eat out. Funny thing - the places I frequent know me on site and are friendly beyond words (I make it down - once, maybe twice a year) and I KNOW they are treating the staff well, because the staff tells me (AND there are no visible bruises of burn marks). I would certainly embrace (Orthodox, Conservative.......) some "heksher" (for lack of a better word) on the door of new places so I could feel as comfortable getting food from the Hashalom Restaurant as I am from Ten Li Chow (who I immediately assumed were ethically "kosher" - how can one have such a sense of humor and NOT be?).

It might be technically kosher, but if the guy behind the counter is a ganiff - do I REALLY want to be there?

[rebitzman]

Note - the examples above are just examples - the Hashalom Restaurant is an excellent place to eat - the staff is very friendly.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Be that as it may, Paul's point stands.

Also, certifying Kashrus laws and establishing a place as being a permitted eatery and not actively involving oneself in other laws does not constitute condoning violations of those laws, as they do not effect that status of the food Halachically.

Certifying an eatery as acceptable when the food is Halachically forbidden is not the same in reverse - the two areas of Halacha do not have the same effect on the food's status.

[steve]

Also, certifying Kashrus laws and establishing a place as being a permitted eatery and not actively involving oneself in other laws does not constitute condoning violations of those laws, as they do not effect that status of the food Halachically

False. If the owner has a proven track record of dishonesty, the food should not be certified as "kosher". There seems to be a double standard with kashrus agencies. On the one hand they refuse to give hashgochos to a mechallel shabbos owner but have no problem giving hashgochos to those that abuse their workers and disobey civil laws. Bottom line, if you can't trust the owner, you can't ever trust that his food is kosher.

[Jason]

The supervision and certification of other areas of Halacha, and the use of that as a factor in whether or not to eat the food is a novel concept.

And yet this concept is used by the OU and other certifying agencies. See the above example about a restaurant that allowed mixed dancing or the proposed New Years Eve shabbat dinner in 1999/2000.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

If the owner has a proven track record of dishonesty, the food should not be certified as "kosher."

That is simply not true. While personal conduct can effect a persons Chezkas Kashrus, there is no reason why food produced by that person, if properly supervised, cannot be certified as Kosher.

This applies to many areas of Halacha, including abusive practices - they do not render the food unkosher. That does not constitute support for that behavior. They simply do not enter into the Kashrus equation.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Jason, by certifying a location, they are saying it is an acceptable place to eat a meal. While there is no basis to say the food is not kosher simply because other violations are happening, there is legitimate reason not to endorse the place as an acceptable environment.

This does not hold true of other violations such as withholding pay, which while utterly forbidden, do not impact the status of the food, nor do they impact the environment.

Withholding certification in these cases does not constitute applying those Halachos to the status of the food. They are simply saying that while the food may be OK, the food is eaten in an environment which we cannot condone - it's a separate issue.

[Shmarya]

...f the owner has a proven track record of dishonesty, the food should not be certified as "kosher."

You're mistaken, Getzel.

If a person loses his hezkat kashrut then all supervision is considered worthless.

A non-Jew who is a professional restauranteur has a hezkat kashrut. He loses that if he is caught lying. If that happens, all supervision is worthless.

That's why a chef caught lying (as opposed to making an error) must be fired.

This extends to Jewish owners and chefs, as well. They may start out with a stronger hezkat kashrut, but they lose it just as fast.

[Jason]

Getzel, in your opinion why would it be inappropriate for a certifying agency to say the same thing as concerns worker treatment, pay, etc? I.e., couldn't the certifying agency say that treatment of workers does impact the environment and we therefore refuse to give a hechsher to any restaurant that didn't pay its workers a living wage (or another similar issue), regardless of the fact that the food is technically kosher?

[Shmarya]

ason, by certifying a location, they are saying it is an acceptable place to eat a meal. While there is no basis to say the food is not kosher simply because other violations are happening, there is legitimate reason not to endorse the place as an acceptable environment.

This does not hold true of other violations such as withholding pay, which while utterly forbidden, do not impact the status of the food, nor do they impact the environment.

But you forget deriving benefit lechatchila from such exploitation is also forbidden.

[steve]

While personal conduct can effect a persons Chezkas Kashrus, there is no reason why food produced by that person, if properly supervised, cannot be certified as Kosher.

If personal conduct effects a person's chezkas kashrus, and if that person hand-picks his own mashgiach and pays him directly, then can one rely on that person and on that mashgiach? I think not, although you and your family think otherwise.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Jason: No, because it doesn't. I am not saying a certification or consumer information on that issue is not a good thing, but it is not comparable to issues which directly involve the consumer, such as the food status and the immediate surroundings of the diner.

Worker relations, while important to the owner, does not impact the consumer at all, Halachically.

I am merely strengthening Paul's point that to certify Kosher establishments as being above board ethically is one thing, and certifying nonKosher establishments is another entirely.

Shmarya: I would appreciate a Halachic source for both of those statements.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Again, Jason. I am not arguing against such certification. I am merely pointing out that the food is technically Kosher, and that certifying a location as Kosher without certifying ethics is Halachically acceptable, while the inverse is questionable.

[Shmarya]

Getzel –

See Rav Moshe's teshuva forbidding non-union lettuce and grapes.

[rebitzman]

++Certifying an eatery as acceptable when the food is Halachically forbidden is not the same in reverse - the two areas of Halacha do not have the same effect on the food's status.++

To those of us who demand BOTH, it is exactly the same.

Let's try this another way......

You've read what the HT committee views as "required" to to receive their certification ( I have no objections to calling it "certification" because you clearly have an issue with calling it a heksher) - what points EXACTLY (please be specific) are you saying that your company absolutely refuses to adhere to?

You might wish to include "why" in your answer.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Well, Rebitzman, I have a superior here at Agriprocessors who evidently shares Shmarya's opinion that we are to be good little Rubashkin's and let people step all over us without defense.

I have been told to stop posting on FM unless I receive permission to do so. I have interpreted that to mean specifically addressing the company's issues, as opposed to purely philosophical discussions, so I cannot answer your question, but I will clarify.

The Torah demands "BOTH." It is not a suggestion or a request, it is a demand. But to the Torah, they are not "exactly the same." The Torah forbids consumption of food in violation of Kashrus, but permits food produced in violation of other laws unless otherwise noted.

Permission does not require one to consume those foods, and advocating application of economic pressure to force compliance is not a bad idea, but to invoke the Torah and imply that the Torah requires compliance with these laws to permit consumption is wrong.

Shmarya: I have not seen that Tshuva, and I imagine you can link to it. The facts remain as I stated them, which is that there are no provisions in the Shulchan Aruch (that I am aware of) that forbid food based on violations other than Kosher and specified cases where it is a preventive or punitive measure.

The fact that a Tshuva was written only underscores the fact that it is not a standard Halachic concept, and the content of the Tshuva will dictate whether or not it can be applied to act as a basis for HT and similar arguments.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rubashkins*

[Shmarya]

but to invoke the Torah and imply that the Torah requires compliance with these laws to permit consumption is wrong.

Getzel –

B'dieved, the food is permitted. L'chatchilla, it is forbidden, just as l'chatchilla you can't do the mitzva of tefillin with stolen tefillin.

I think Rav Moshe's teshuva on union lettuce and grapes is in Igros Moshe. I have it, but only on CD and my version doesn't work with the computer I know use.

Anyway, you're always welcome here – even if we strongly disagree.

[rebitzman]

++But to the Torah, they are not "exactly the same." ++

Don't recall saying they were.

DO recall saying I was in my rights to demand both.

Sorry to hear that you're being shut down - while I have disagreed with you - DO disagree with you on many (ok Most......ok nearly ALL) points, I have appreciated your willingness to take it between the eyes.

[steve]

Getzel Rubashkin says that "kosher" food produced unethically by unethical people is technically kosher. Why am I not surprised?

Here is an excerpt from a Jewish Press article dated 12/13/85 that speaks to the heart of the matter:

Kashrus Abuses High on Orthodox Agenda

In the hallways and convention rooms of Agudath Israel of America, and the National Council of Young Israel last weekend, Orthodox Jews heatedly debated the large number of incidents pointing to the widespread abuses in the Glatt Kosher industry. Of particular concern to these Jews were the violations perpetrated by Glatt owners who desecrate the Shabbos, Torah and Mitzvos.

The latest incident to rock the Orthodox community in kashrus was a startling discovery in the town of Apple Creek, Ohio. A truckload of "supposedly" Glatt Kosher calves (Central Glatt Meats, Inc.)detined for New York allegedly contained treif meat. The meat would have been distributed to stores and caterers in the metropolitan area. The Concerned Group of Glatt Kosher Consumers confirmed the incident which came only weeks after a major meat wholesaler was caught taking in "treif meat" on Yom Tov.

In addition to the discussions at the conclaves of major Orthodox organizations, the debate has flowed over into the pages of the Jewish Press and other Jewish media. The sentiment that has been running high is that people who desecrate Shabbos and Mitzvos (both bein adom l'makom and bein adom l'chaveiro) should not be in the Glatt Kosher business.

Has anything improved since? Not at all. In fact, the President of the aforementioned Central Glatt, Steven Simcha Katz is now the Chairman of Kashrus at the OU!

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I will stick around. While there is merit to the "Mitzva HaBo'o B'Avaira" concept, I believe you are applying it a bit too indiscriminately.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rebitzman, I did not argue with your right to demand both. As a matter of fact, I supported it.

[Paul Freedman]

What concerned me primarily is a truth-in-advertising issue, I have problems with the motivation, heck the meaning, of various types of Kashrut certification that permit, knowingly permit, violations of what is conventionally understood as being the minimum dietary component. In general my "ofi" gets uneasy with "mixed concepts", statements that start with a principle here and then end up over there without a clear pathway of what the process for deducing that a follows from b is, is this analogy, is this extension of part to the whole, is this some implicit contextual judgement based on some equivalent of da'as tora. I am not saying nor could I offer a credible opinion nay or yay that there could not be a consensus around a set of conditions implicated in kashrus beyond the dietary food preparation and storage requirements and communal "standards of decency" for behaviors permitted where food is purchased and consumed. I don't see that Al Pe Din is making an argumentative case in systematic fashion towards this however. I do suspect, myself, that they are eliding/gliding over substantive stress-points in their advocacy which enters the zone of assertion "Kashrus is Torah, social justice is Torah, ergo social justice is kashrus"--well, yeah, but....

[Paul Freedman]

you'll burn in gehenna, Getzel Rubashkin!!

(balance)

[Getzel Rubashkin]

++you'll burn in gehenna, Getzel Rubashkin!!

(balance)++

I have a feeling I should understand that, but I don't.

[Shmarya]

What concerned me primarily is a truth-in-advertising issue, I have
problems with the motivation, heck the meaning, of various types of
Kashrut certification that permit, knowingly permit, violations of what
is conventionally understood as being the minimum dietary component.

The question is – is this an issue of marit ayin, a halakha that in effect prohibits misleading someone unintentionally, causing them to sin.

At one point, having pareve margarine on your table with a pot roast was marit ayin – now it is not.

Even when it was, placing a sign of some kind next to the margarine to remind people that it is pareve and not butter sufficed to allow its use with meat.

The classic example of this is in the Shulkhan Arukh Yoreh Dayah (in the later 80s, perhaps chapter 88) with almond milk and beef, where whole almonds had to be placed near the almond milk as a sign.

Assuming B'maagleo tzedek has done the equivalent of placing those almonds, there should not be a halakhic problem.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, I can't myself square a gut sense of ethics with what is reported as the labor practices of AgriP. The remark was (a failed apparently) humorous exaggeration of whatever share of responsibility you bear for grievances that are, in the course of time, substantiated. I can't believe that this "bottom-feeding" labor recruitment is optimal for you guys and its problematic for modern capitalist equity in general, there's a tendency to start looking for pools of "exceptional" labor, people who are in some sense cut adrift from the comfort zone of societal centeredness and this affects business norms generally and on upwards.

[Paul Freedman]

But back it up a bit and consider a certification that requires periodically a notice that is not the kind of certification that its title purports to be....

[Paul Freedman]

Shmaya, I don't assume that they've taken that step either.

[Shmarya]

Shmaya, I don't assume that they've taken that step either.

But they have.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya, I don't see anything in the article to state that the "kosher justice seal" is placed in non-kosher restaurants with any warning that the restaurant is, by convention, non-kosher. Where was that?

[sage]

Getzel needs to be aware of the following commentary on the Parsha of Mishpatim in the Artscroll Chumash on Page 416:

The juxtaposition of this Sidra (dealing primarliy with civil and tort law) with the Ten Commandments and the Laws of the Alter provide a startling insight into Judaism. To G-d, there is no realm of "religion" in the colloquial sense of the word. Most people think of religion as a matter of ritual and spirituality. Western man differentiates between Church and State. The Torah knows of no distinction. To the contrary, all areas of life are intertwined and holiness derives from halachically correct business dealings no less than in matters of ritual. The Sages teach that one who wishes to be a Chassid, or a devoutly pious person, should be scrupulous in matters of civil and tort law.

It is in these areas, that the Rubashkin businsess enterprises have been woefully lacking and will, ultimately, earn their Divine Justice.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, I don't see anything in the article to state that the "kosher justice seal" is placed in non-kosher restaurants with any warning that the restaurant is, by convention, non-kosher. Where was that?

I believe it is on the seal itself.

Realize they have rabbinic backing.

[Paul Freedman]

sage, questions I would have: have religious courts ever taken on issues of employment law in respect to non-Jewish employees? or Jewish? have these social issues been incorporated into communal mechanisms to reflect, in practice, this spiritual/normative unity? in modern times, in connection with kashrus? Is there a record here of precedent in our times?

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya, the only rabbinic reference I noted was to, well, Morris Allen of Heksher Tzeddik.

[Shmarya]

sage, questions I would have: have religious courts ever taken on issues of employment law in respect to non-Jewish employees? or Jewish? have these social issues been incorporated into communal mechanisms to reflect, in practice, this spiritual/normative unity? in modern times, in connection with kashrus? Is there a record here of precedent in our times?

The answer is yes to all of those, Paul. The Hechsher Tzedek al pi din pdf notes some of them. I've noted others here.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, the only rabbinic reference I noted was to, well, Morris Allen of Heksher Tzeddik.

Well, I can't help what you note.

The fact is, they have Orthodox rabbinic backing, along with huge public support.

[Isa]

Off topic BUT it might save somebody's life!!
Regarding:""The classic example of this is in the Shulkhan Arukh Yoreh Dayah (in the later 80s, perhaps chapter 88) with almond milk and beef, where whole almonds had to be placed near the almond milk as a sign.""

Almonds would make my windpipe close COMPLETELY- I would die! and I am not the only one!

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel is making yet another FALSE assertion.

There are in fact MANY poskim who say that once someone's chezkas kashrus has been compromised that he cannot be trust even with a mashgiach temidi omed al gabav.

The only rabbi I ever knew to dispute this is a joker at the OU who is burdened with the HUGE NEGIOS of certifying enterprises such as Le Marais, Levana's, Rubashkin & others.

Just as is the case at the OU, it is in Getzel's best interests to dispute this concept in halacha.

Philisophical discussions only, my foot.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya, for the Israeli org ya think? could you supply at least one name and denomination for that rabbinic support, as there is no indication that the Israeli certificate offers any cautionary note regarding the pork and ice cream parlors that are stated to be eligible to receive it, unlike, incidentally, it is confirmed by the Heksher Tzeddik office of Rabbi M. Allen, the US Hechsher Tzeddik that is *not* intended to be offered to establishments that would fail to merit certification based on the traditional halachic requirements.

I was told that the two are absolutely independent and that the American version is not, despite the Israeli practice, and possible press statements, intended to be offered to businesses that could not meet standards of kosher environment de minima.

[Paul Freedman]

That said, Al Pe Din itself makes no argument per se or offer precedent for its own certificate as being normatively positioned in its posture not as a labor seal of good housekeeping but a hechsher; even in the duscussion of animal welfare that would be leading to such a logical chain of deduction the pamphlet doesn't close the deal--at no point does it offer a specific rationale or precedent for directly linking transgression of the various civil, tort, and behaviorial norms proffered to abrogration of hechsher granted on technical dietary and food processing compliance, particularly the concrete, inclusive, and in some instances, exogenous social demands actually included in the working draft. Rather it relies on the implicit "ways of righteousness" rationale put forward by sage:

"In addition to insisting that Kosher food manufacturers abide by the fullness of halakhic demands, Hekhsher Tzedek is also conceived as a tool for the Jewish consumer to be able to make righteous choices about their kosher eating which were never possible before."

It does however reference responsa pointing to a functioning religious court system also referenced but specific historical instances or general scope are not there for the actual labor law customary enforcement implied by the responsa--the pamphlet is polemically ahistorical and achronological in that sense.

The set of conditions articulated in the draft are not a program merely to avoid obvious mistreatment but a potentially open-ended set of detailed criteria I think any manufacturer responsible for keeping an actual business afloat should avoid.

This kind of negotiation is what unions are for if you need to jam up your kosher enterprise with endless haggling over left-wing quotas ("Support for Women, Minorities, and the Disabled. Companies will be favored for the Hekhsher if they make proactive efforts to have a diverse workforce, including women, minorities, and the disabled")-- and other demands whose locus is not specifically Jewish but derived from today's progressive consensus. One should not abuse one's employees or livestock but the definition of that does not require consent to the full monty of crystallized progressive social aspirations that are embraced here--demands that have proved easier to insist upon than implement.

[Paul Freedman]

This is the website address of the consulting firm whose name is on the Draft:

http://www.kld.com/consulting/index.html

there's may be a network of high-tone (well-funded) social activist and high-tech targeted resources behind this initiative, which would be interesting in tracking the overlapping and conflicting business, social, and expertise networks within which the traditionalist and modernist-Conservative denominations operation and through which they refract and execute what they perceive as Torah-nic values

[rebitzman]

+_+I have been told to stop posting on FM unless I receive permission to do so. I have interpreted that to mean specifically addressing the company's issues, as opposed to purely philosophical discussions, so I cannot answer your question, but I will clarify.++

Well, at the risk of being declared a traitor by the residents - I will tell you in light of recent developments on the legal front, whoever is giving you this advice (order?) is dead on right.

I assure you - even though you maintain that you are not a spokesman for Agri - what you say here WILL be used against your leadership (family) in a court of law - or at the very least you open yourself up to subpoena in a case that might well involve your father.

Don't envy you.

[yidandahalf]

Like I said before, rebbitzman, you s**t in your own nest. What can one say? I have my issues with our Russki brethern but they know what loyalty is.

[rebitzman]

++but they know what loyalty is.++

Not an issue with loyalty - it's a matter of law (in this case). A three dollar lawyer will tell you that guilty or innocent, if the DA has his eyes on you - your best bet is to shut up.

And if it was my dad in the cross hairs (guilty or innocent) - I sure as heck would.