"I don't know how someone can be harsh to an animal and proceed to ask God for compassion the next minute."

Daniel Eisenberg writes via email:

I used to do kaparot with a live chicken for years, part of my chassidic heritage though I am MO. I was never comfortable with the ritual but I thought that animals were created for us and as long as there was no outright cruelty then no problem. This changed…

… 3 years ago when I went to monsey for kaparot. The biggest one there is done by Vishnitz. Apparantly some kollel guy tried to do some business where he bought as many chickens as possible crammed in as tight a spot as possible. To save money of course. Anyway the vast majority of chickens died of asphixiation and heat stroke from not having water and too many chickens crammed together generated so much body heat they died. So what did the frum businessman do? He appologizes and then applies the laws of supply and demand and raises the prices. Here comes the kicker, the chickens were not going to be used for poor people to eat. They were going to be sold at market and money donated to poor people. Everyone could have prevented the mass tzar baalei chaim and just donated the money. Since then I use money. I don't know how someone can be harsh to an animal and proceed to ask God for compassion the next minute.

Comments

[Y. Aharon]

I know of no talmudic source for doing kapporot with a live animal. This custom apparently stems from medieval Europe, and is probably not of Jewish origin. The Shulchan Aruch (Rav Yosef Karo) living in the 16th century calls it a heathen practice (darkei Emori), as does the Rashba, a major early authority (Rishon)living in Spain. The latter forbade it in the area under his jurisdiction. The idea that waving and then slaughtering an animal will somehow atone for sins is also objectionable for its imitation of once legitimate animal sacrafice in the temple.

Do the chickens and yourself a favor by not participating in this ritual.

Y. Aharon

[Archie Bunker]

You forgot to mention that Lithuanian halachic authorities are also against the practice.

[Meir Simcha Cohen]

Justice will prevail! Read about it at http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/news_item.php?id=1020

[Shmarya]

I hope so.

BTW, the Jewish Week broke that story. And people were working on it long before Dov Hikind.

[steve]

Justice will prevail!

It will prevail in spite of the Agudah who "banned" it. They define "Tzedek Tzedek Tirdof" to mean chasing justice away, instead of running after it. Like YL says, in there Torah it's "Kesef Kesef Tirdof".

[Carol-Ann]

If the average U.S. citizen were to take a chicken to a public place, swing the animal over their head, proceed to cut its throat, and let it bleed to death, the citizen would be charged for this action.

Yet, religious groups are exempted.

Why should religious groups have special privledges denied to others?

It would seem the duty of government towards its citizens is equal treatment under the law; otherwise, the government is showing preferencial treatment to certain groups.

Is freedom of religious action absolute? Absolutely not! For example, the U.S. government restricts a Mormon's belief to practice polygamy.

If an animal cruelty or public health law prohibits an action, the law should apply to everyone.

Otherwise, where is the justice?

[rebitzman]

++Why should religious groups have special privledges denied to others?++

It's called the 1st Amendment.

++For example, the U.S. government restricts a Mormon's belief to practice polygamy.++

You're of the opinion that the LDS church allows for polygamy?

Carol - as politely as I can say this - you look at Jewish issues with a goyishe kopp.

I do not engage in kapporot - but defend the right of those who so choose to do - and the COURTS so defend that right.

And for the record - what we do is none of your damned business.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I love doing kapparot... with money.

The problem is that if you push the groups that insist on doing it with chickens, you just make them more extreme and then they go all postal by insisting it's a halachah l'Moshe miSinai.

[Anon]

I don't either do kapparot with a chicken, but I will stand up and defend the constitutional rights of those that elect to do so for religious reasons. Of course this should not involve unnecessary cruelty to the chickens, however, this whole thing is a non-issue - in NY at least. Local law enforcement does respond quite quickly to complaints about animal cruelty and does issue citations which include the potential for criminal penalties. Most people that provide this service are aware of that and act accordingly. Those that don't will learn quickly enough.

[Rachel Batya]

--I don't either do kapparot with a chicken, but I will stand up and defend the constitutional rights of those that elect to do so for religious reasons. --

I completely agree.

--this whole thing is a non-issue - in NY at least. Local law enforcement does respond quite quickly to complaints about animal cruelty and does issue citations which include the potential for criminal penalties.--

Have there been any citations issued regarding the public health concerns, such as handling the birds without gloves, the carcasses being left outside, etc.? If the birds come packed into crates and covered with feces, there is a good chance that they've lived in similar conditions for awhile and could carry salmonella and other things harmful to humans.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dear Chevra: I am back from vacation (temporarily). I'll return for good after Labor Day. I've missed you all. About this thread, kapporot should only be done with a rubber chicken.

Lavie's Back (apologies to Kurt Weil, a chazzan's son, and Bertodt Brecht):

Oh the shark has pretty teeth, dear
And he shows them pearly white
Just a keyboard has old Lavie, dear
And his puns are outta sight

When the shark bites with his teeth, dear
Scarlet billows start to spread
Fancy satire wielded by Lavie, dear
So there's never a trace of red

On Failed Messiah, every morning,
Spews a sockpuppet oozing lies
Someone's satirizing him, like a coroner,
Is that someone Yochanan?

From a schlact house in Iowa
A shackle and hoist, is dropping down
The tzaar baal chayim's just so cheap, dear
Five'll get ya ten, Rubbishcan owns the town.

Juda Engelmayer disappeared, dear
After Rubbishcan paid him ill-earned cash
And now Lavie cusses like a sailor
Did our boy do something rash?

Oh, Archie Bunker, Carol Ann Varley,
Rebbitzman, and ole Shmarya-Scott
Oh the line forms on the right, dear
Now that Lavie's back and hot.

Look out old Lavie's back!

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Kapparot Song (Sung to the tune of "Come Sail Away." Apologies: Styx)

I'm flailing away, gotta shlug kapparot, it's an emergency
I've got to be free, free of all the sins on the head of me
Oy vey, there's a chicken, so don't get bored
We'll search for minhagim on every shore
And I'll try, oh Lord, I'll try to act pagan

I look to the Rebbe, reflections in his grave spark my religiousity
Some Jewish, some not
I think of monotheism and how far we've got.
We live Jewishly forever, so the story goes
But somehow it's pissed out, for a calf of gold
But we'll try best that we can to act pagan

A gathering of malachim appeared above my head
They sang to me this song of chumrot, and this is what they said
They said come flail away, come flail away
Come flail away the chicken
Come flail away, come flail away
Come flail away the chicken

I thought that they were angels, but to my dismay,
They climbed aboard their Rebbe-mobile and headed Postville- way.
Singing come bail away, come bail away
Come bail away the Rubbishclan
Come bail away, come bail away
Come bail away, they're in the can.

[rebitzman]

++Oh, Archie Bunker, Carol Ann Varley,
Rebbitzman, and ole Shmarya-Scott
Oh the line forms on the right, dear
Now that Lavie's back and hot. ++

And it's good to see you.

[sage]

Hi Yochanan.

Really nice to have you back.

I was starting to have some concerns that "Uncle Miltie" and his goon squad had made a surprise "Midnight Visit" and ....

[Marbles]

++Why should religious groups have special privledges denied to others?++

It's called the 1st Amendment.

So what?

The First Amendment doesn't allow all religions to do ANYTHING they wish to in the name of religion. There can be, and there are, restrictions.

Thus, Carol's point stands.

The point stands further because those who practice kapporot openly state that IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. It doesn't take away or transfer sins, it doesn't attone for anything, it's all SYMBOLIC.

Since it does not have a claimed spiritual effect (the only spiritual effect is from the teshuva the person MIGHT do - and that is from the later actions of the person involved, not from the kapporot itself), banning the use of animals is not infringing on the spiritual needs of the religious practicioners, as there is no spiritual benefit, and the practice allows for the use of money instead of animals. Thus, the practice can still be excercised.

In this case, the State can very well intervene claiming this is a case of public health or animal cruelty. They could impose a ban on the use of animals and say that it can be done, but only with money.

This is different from the Santeria cases, because the Santeria practicioners believe they are doing something involving spirits and powers, etc. and the sacrifices have some spiritual importance and that they are integral to their religious practice.

It's the same reason why some Native American religious groups can use peyote in rituals. They believe it is a portal to the spiritual world, not something that is merely "symbolic."

Mormonism and polygamy? Sure, the Church doesn't permit it now. But they used to. Why did they change? Because of the U.S. government forbid it - even though it was a "religious doctrine" for the Mormons.

"According to a consensus of historians, the practice was taught by Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, and introduced formally to the public in 1852 by Brigham Young, leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The practice became famous during the 19th century when it was opposed and outlawed by the United States government, resulting in an intense legal conflict, culminating in LDS Church president Wilford Woodruff announcing the church's official abandonment of the practice on September 25, 1890."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

The free excercise clause:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Banning kapporot - or, rather, banning the use of animals for it - would not constitute a violation of the free excercise of religion, because kapporot is a symbolic folk practice that is NOT an integral part of Judaism. If it stopped immediately it would have no impact on the practice of Judaism. We'd still have the Torah, Shabbat, kashrut, and yom tovim. Kapporot has no effect on and is not an integral necessary part of any of these things. It stands alone, and it is an added on folk practice, that many in Orthodox Judaism opposed and still oppose.

As we have seen from the case of the Mormons, the Government can and will regulate aspects of a religion if those aspects run contrary to the laws of the government and those aspects or practices are not integral to the free excercise of the religion as a whole.

The government most definitely could regulate kapporot it if it so wished.

[chabib]

Wouldn't it be cool if kaprus
was done by swinging over one's head
a Ford Tarus ?

Just a thought!

[rebitzman]

++The government most definitely could regulate kapporot it if it so wished.++

Read EVERYTHING I wrote.

They already have ruled - it's legal.

[Ichabod Chrain]

"I do not engage in kapporot - but defend the right of those who so choose to do"

I think you missed the point. It's not whether you defend the right, it's why you should defend the right if it causes harm. Why does someone's right to do kaporos with a live chicken outweigh the chicken's right to live or die humanely?

"And for the record - what we do is none of your damned business."

Well the chicken can't very well defend itself can it? So then maybe it is other people's business.

"They already have ruled - it's legal."

When did they do that? And then again something can be legal and not be moral.

Read EVERYTHING I wrote.

They already have ruled - it's legal.

So was growing hemp. So was possession of LSD. So was owning and driving a moped without a license.

Please read was written - "The government most definitely could regulate kapporot it if it so wished."

There's nothing here about banning it or questioning the legality of it - merely a statement that it can be regulated without a violation of the 1st Amendment.

You can grow hemp - if you are licensed. You can possess LSD - if you are a research facility licensed to do so. You can drive a moped - if you have a license.

The government can place restrictions on things that were previously free and open to anyone.

If the government at any time wishes to regulate kapporot, it will will not fall under the "free excercise" clause because it is not a religious practice, but merely a folk custom.

[tzaddik ben Torah]

Soon there will be a special "Kapporos Tax"
We should swing some of the rebbes around.It would give a kapporo to their followers.How about buying live chickens and have a shochet come to your house and slaughter it.Then you would not need Rubashkin.Live chickens are available in Spanish neighborhoods in the Bronx and Manhattan.

[Al]

Rebitzman: I have seen Carol-Ann contribute on a number of topics, I for one appreciate her contributions and I think your response to her is frankly rude, insulting and reflective of a kind of bigotry that we would all be horrified of if the tables were turned.

Telling her she thinks with a "goyishe kopp" ? What are you thinking man ? Should she tell you that you are thinking like a "cheap and manipulative Jew" ? or are illegitimate stereo-types only good for you to throw around. And.. while I understand how you might try to argue that what we do is not her business.... I do not agree. I thought we are ordered by god to "be a light unto nations" ? does this mean other nations should not look at what we do ? it seems to me that god is saying that we need to remember that we are always out for public display and should take advantage of it to promote his message. As you have noted, I am not big on blind faith and blanket acceptance of every word passed down by the sages.. but you are.. so shy not have a little respect for the lady. Please....

Finally, the constitution protects the rights of all religions... there are clearly areas where in doing so, the constitution protects things that we are not all that comfortable with - that is life - a compromise to assure greater freedoms for all. Still - would it be such a sin, if those individuals managing the act of kaparot are still held accountable for the proper treatment of animals in accordance with US law.. and by the way halacha ?