Getzel Rubashkin Smears Conservative Jewish Leaders

Getzel Rubashkin says Rabbi Morris Allen does not keep kosher.

I know this to be untrue.

Rabbi Allen keeps kosher and so does…

…a very high percentage of his congregants.

Let's examine Getzel's remarks in more detail.

Getzel wrote:

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I understand that the proponents of HT don't keep "technical" kosher themselves and would hardly call for pots to be kashered.

And then clarified under pressure:

"I'm sorry for offending, … I was referring specifically to Rabbi Allen. Proponents was the wrong word to use. I was trying to avoid naming anyone in particular. I apologize for my poor choice of words which implied that all people who support HT do not keep Kosher. I do not believe that to be the case at all."

In other words, first Getzel smeared all people involved with Hechsher Tzedek and then, when confronted by some of those people, limited his smear to Rabbi Allen, its founder.

A large percentage of Agriprocessors' pre-raid customers were Conservative Jews.

I find it hard to believe these Jews will rush out to embrace the "new" Agriprocessors when the "new" Agriprocessors lies about their leaders.

Comments

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The fact that you choose to not believe my statement that I was meant Rabbi Allen when I said proponents is your decision, but you will be judged by it by those who read this blog.

++you have not apologized,++
I did apologize for the comment when I clarified what I meant. I stated "I apologize for my poor choice of words which implied that all people who support HT do not keep Kosher. I do not believe that to be the case at all."

I also stated "if I remembered incorrectly, misunderstood, or came to a wrong conclusion I apologize, as I have in the past on this issue."

I will repeat that apology without the qualifier if I was indeed wrong.

I would further clarify that I apologize for the making the original statement because at this point I cannot defend it.

I expect you to do the same on the rental post - defend your position or acknowledge that you made a mistake.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

OK... Thank you for clarifying.

[jewishwhistleblower]

To accuse a person by name of "not keep(ing) Kosher" is outrageous and in my humble opinion constitutes several violations of shmirat halashon. Although, there has been much inappropriate speculation here there has been no specifics, no evidence, no testimony.

The claim that "(I) remember reading a quote by Rabbi (A.) in which he stated that he is a vegetarian but he does eat at non-Kosher restaurants." is utterly insufficient to claim that he "not keep Kosher", even if the quote is correct as there are many things one can eat in a non-certified establishment that meet "technical" or halachic kashrut standards.

How do you think frum business people and traders survived during travels 100s and 1000s of years ago when they were no certified products/companies, no mass produced magnifying devices or filters?

[Shmarya]

I expect you to do the same on the rental post - defend your position or acknowledge that you made a mistake.

But I did not make a mistake, Getzel. Vastly inflated rental rates and deductions for "loans" not received is not normal – or kosher – business.

You'll be reading much more about these issues in the near future.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I will not defend my comment until I find the quote and am speaking from a position of knowledge not speculation and memory. A sentiment I should have had before making the comment, and I apologize(d) for that lapse.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

In the face of facts, Shmarya, which I intend to continue to present, I fear your reluctance to admit you have overstated things may be held against you by your readers.

[Shmarya]

I'm reporting what I've been told by multiple sources. And what I have reported is a bit less harsh than what they claim. so far, I'm sticking to the claims these disparate sources agree on – I'm not reporting what individual sources claim.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I have done the same and arrived at very different results. If you maintain you are right, I will be forced to make a comprehensive list of the employees with OneForce and share with you their thoughts. A lot of work, but I will do it if I have to. I will do it with Jeff, as an independent third party.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I shared with you facts, not the feelings of the employees. Do your sources deny these facts?

[Shmarya]

Getzel, your facts – even if true – show clear exploitation. And, yes, some of your facts have been denied.

You should see more on this next week.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I will continue to present the facts and will include Jeff in my research so you cannot dismiss my findings.

[Andrew]

Why is everyone kissing Morris Allens tuchus?
He is a Conservative rabbi and probably does not keep Orthodox Jewish Kosher.Kosher is generally a term reserved for Kosher according to Orthodox practice.
Next you''ll telm me that he keeps 'halacha'.
I can't take it when people want to be all things for all people.Conservative Jews keep their own version and should butt out of other peoples business or open their own shechitta

[bernice]

Does Getzel admit that when there was throat ripping or whatever or Clinton want to call it, is that compliance with Halacha?

Should that have been designated as a non-kosher animal in laymans terms?

When the animal was shot by bolt after schechita, should have been used as kosher?

Was there ever any mislabeling or relabeling of any meat regardless of the reason (Glatt, Bet-Yosef, Dates, Kosher etc)?

Did the plant ever make any changes at all when it was known that there will be a visitor?

Are you aware of the accepted as norm (Halacha or minhag or anything else)..if one has sold something that should have been declared not-kosher and sold it as kosher..."they are to be banned from ever selling any kosher to anyone?

I have to quit now because of Shabbos approaching.

[jewishwhistleblower]

>I will not defend my comment until I find
>the quote

That's not the proper course. If you cannot backup your outrageous claim you shoud immediately retract it and appologize in full. This is a claim that should never have been made and comments such as "I will not DEFEND my comment until I find the quote" contradict and are in direct opposition to any possible claim of appology.

[rebitzman]

++He is a Conservative rabbi and probably does not keep Orthodox Jewish Kosher.++

I am guessing he understands the laws around LaShon HaRah - and avoids do it.

Can you say the same?

[Andrew]

Rebitzman
I asked Morris Allen to administer to his own flock (that,btw is not very into 'kosher')and to butt the fuck out of other, in this case, Orthodox business.Orthodox rabbis don't tell Allen how to run his Conservative 'halacha'.
If you are not Orthodox this Rubashkin brouhah-ha should not interest you, unless you want me coming into your synagogues and hearing my two cents about your movement

[rebitzman]

++butt the fuck out of other++

As I said - a shining example.

++hearing my two cents about your movement++

We'd owe you change.

[rebitzman]

++btw is not very into 'kosher')......butt the fuck out of other++

Kosher is every bit as much about what comes out of your mouth as what goes into it - and while I certainly would not presume to define the level of kashrus at YOUR shul, I am comfortable in saying that you have effectively defined yours.

There's more to it than owning a black hat.

Shabbat Shalom.

[critical minyan]

there is an inyan of ever min hachai for eating rubashkin meat because according to some articles the animals were still alive when they were pulling the animals guts out.
because the rabbanim, say this meat is still kosher, even though McDonald's wouldnt touch it because they say the meat killed that way is not humane, it still might be considered kosher and we are not obligated to Kasher our kitchens.
However, since ever min hachai is one of the sheva mitzvos bnai noach, a goy that eats Rubashkin meat might be chayiv misah.therefore, if a man is married to woman who was converted by a reform rabbi, and she cooks him a Rubashkin steak for dinner, he would be allowed to eat it, but if she did she would be guilty of a capital crime.

[Andrew]

I don't wear a black hat and I do mind my own business and yes I do use vulgar language and I'm not going to change that because some self appointed preacher like yourself does not like it.

[John]

I would say that Getzel is if anything overapologetic especially in the face of other comments from other bloggers who cosider themselves so infallible that they almost **never** have to retract or aapologiize for *anything* they say!!

[Isaac Balbin]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that "Archie Bunker" sounds a lot like Rabbi Yudel Shain?

Hey Archie, do you have the guts to actually say who you are?
What are you hiding from?

[rebitzman]

++Is it just me, or does anyone else think that "Archie Bunker" sounds a lot like Rabbi Yudel Shain?++

Well other than the fact that they both say they tried to edge their way onto this inspection trip to Rubashkin - offered to pay their own way, both of them.......

[rebitzman]

++I do mind my own business++

Yes....everyone here can see that.

[bernice]

Getzel-Any response to 8/2/08 4:27PM

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I asked Morris Allen to administer to his own flock (that,btw is not very into 'kosher')and to butt the fuck out of other, in this case, Orthodox business.Orthodox rabbis don't tell Allen how to run his Conservative 'halacha'.
If you are not Orthodox this Rubashkin brouhah-ha should not interest you, unless you want me coming into your synagogues and hearing my two cents about your movement

It's a character flaw of mine, but there are few things I would enjoy more than you doing that, because the shomer Shabbat JTS scholars of my Conservative congregation would wipe the floor with your understanding of halacha and the history of it's development. I get goose-bumps just thinking about it.

[John]

Bernice: I think you mean 8/1/08 4:27PM

[LES Kid]

If one looks at the guidelines of Hescher Tzedek, one would see that this is not a kashrut organization so the gonifs at the OU and Hassidic Hechshers need not worry about compettiont. Rather than certifying the kashrut of the food, the Hescher Tzedek is designed to give hescher to working conditions and other ethical concerns. For the people of "the Book" you guys should learn to read before you automatically attack people.

[LES Kid]

If one looks at the guidelines of Hescher Tzedek, one would see that this is not a kashrut organization so the gonifs at the OU and Hassidic Hechshers need not worry about competition. Rather than certifying the kashrut of the food, the Hescher Tzedek is designed to give hescher to working conditions and other ethical concerns. For the people of "the Book" you guys should learn to read before you automatically attack people.

[rebitzman]

++For the people of "the Book" you guys should learn to read before you automatically attack people.++

Ahhhhhhh?

But it's MUCH more fun just thumping it!

[Isa]

Regarding: Hescher Tzedek from LES kid

If someone wants to expand the Kosher market by getting the Conservative and Reform Jews eat Kosher, signing on to Hescher Tzedek is the way to go

[rebitzman]

++If someone wants to expand the Kosher market by getting the Conservative and Reform Jews eat Kosher++

I would not dispute that as a percentage of the whole - Conservative Jews spend more time talking about it (keeping kosher) than do it.

However, in terms of sheer numbers, we are the largest consumer group of kosher meat in this country.

That said - I agree with you (just wanted some perspective thrown in).

[Conservative apikoris]

The argument that Conservative have no right to have input over how the kosher industry works is nonsense. The Conservatives, whatever their level of observance, are a major part of the kosher industry's customer base.

This article:

http://rabbimorrisallen2.blogspot.com/2008/07/jews-debate-ethics-of-kosher-food.html

The reporter from the Boston Globe cites the National Jewish Population Survey as stating that 86 percent of Orthodox Jews, 25% of Conservative Jews, and 5% of Reform Jews "keep kosher." Whatever that means, at the very least it means that they exclusively purchase certified kosher meat for their homes. Orthodox Jews account for 8% of the "core" Jewish population, with Conservative being 24% and Reform being 30%.

Do the math:

.08 * .86 = Kosher- observant Orthodox Jews are 7% of the total core Jewish population

.24 * .25 = Kosher-observant Conservative Jews are 6% of the total core Jewish population.

.30 * .05 = Kosher observant Reform Jews are 2 percent of the total core Jewish population.

Even without accounting for kosher observant Jews from the minor denominations and kosher observant Jews who don't identify with a denomination, and gentiles who purchase kosher meat, it seems that more non-Orthodox Jews keep kosher than Orthodox Jews. And if you consider that most Orthodox Jews aren't hareidi black hatters, it's the height of arrogance for the hareidi black hatters to have taken control of the kosher industry the way they have.

[Yochanan Lavie]

CA: The problems is, no one would trust the Conservative rabbinate to do it right (not even some Conservative Jews). That may not be fair, but that's how it is. And no one except for black hatters seem to want to go into the kashrut business. In Modern Orthodoxy, where are the sopherim and schochtim? MO want to be Ortho-yuppies, so they go into law, business, medicine, etc. Nowadays, it's even very common to have Lubavitchers or other black hats take over MO pulpits, or become teachers in MO schools, because their own people don't want to do it. Then they complain that their kids become frummer than thou.

Judaism is supposed to be a do it yourself religion. Apart from a few things only a Cohen or Levi can do, it's up to everybody. Now, the black hats have emerged as a clerisy. We can thank observant Conservative and Modern Orthodox Jews, who couldn't be bothered, or would rather drive a Jaguar, for that.

[rebitzman]

++And no one except for black hatters seem to want to go into the kashrut business.++

Without question.

Proud CJ that I am - I want my sons to go to Law school - I do NOT want them killing cows.

++Now, the black hats have emerged as a clerisy. We can thank observant Conservative and Modern Orthodox Jews,++

I agree - but that said we CAN (and apparently ARE) push back upstream when we see ethical violations.

While I am NOT backing away from the early part of my statement (given half in jest - one son is a software engineer and the other is studying religion) - here's a fun fact. There is only one Conservative Shochet in the world right now - and HE had to lie to get certified (which kind of disqualifies him in a lot of eyes). While we (CJ) aren't exactly stomping down the doors to become shochetim - the far right is doing everything in their power to lock us out SHOULD (we lose our senses) we suddenly wish to enter the arena.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

bernice: I am not a Halachic authority, and I defer to those who are. You should direct those questions to the Rabbis who certify the plant. If you do not trust them you have even less reason to trust me.

The only thing on that list that I can answer is that I have never seen any changes made before a visit. I have taken people through the plant on moments notice countless times. Jews and non-Jews, students and Rabbis, visitors and locals. I have never noticed any changes made, nor any differences from the way it is when I walk through there alone.

jwb: Do not misrepresent what I said.

++I will not defend my comment until I find the quote and am speaking from a position of knowledge not speculation and memory.++

You started discussing whether Rabbi Allen's diet could have been Kosher even in a non-Kosher restaurant, inviting me to respond and defend my assumption that it was not. I said I will not defend that assumption at this time.

I then reiterated:
++A sentiment I should have had before making the comment, and I apologize(d) for that lapse.++

Now... what exactly is the problem?

As John implied, if those taking issue with my handling of the situation held themselves to the standards to which (I am holding myself and) they want to hold me, this blog would be quite a different place.

[rebitzman]

++I said I will not defend that assumption at this time.++

With all due respect - thought when you first wrote it, and still think now that your comment falls a tad short of an apology to Rabbi Allen.

[Shmarya]

Getzel is being disingenuous.

He first said "proponents" of HT did not keep kosher.

Under pressure, he modified that to be Rabbi Allen does not keep kosher.

He has yet to apologize to Rabbi Allen, just as his family has yet to apologize to Rabbi Allen for the 5WPR impersonations.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, there was no "pressure." A couple of readers expressed offense at their understanding of what I said and I readily clarified. I also explained why I didn't simply say "Rabbi Allen." Even when I believe I am right I try to avoid making things personal. I very clearly apologized for both statements.

You are beating a dead horse, and it's making you look bad. A better use of your time would perhaps be to back up *your* portrayal of the rent issue, or to retract and apologize. It's not that hard, I've shown you how it's done.

[Shmarya]

You have not apologized to Rabbi Allen. Neither has your family.

[Shmarya]

Oh, and my version of the rent issue has been reported by the Des Moines Register, as well.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I have not apologized to Rabbi Allen for what?

And my version of the rent issue is backed up by facts cross-checked with the employees, staffing agency and the rental company. Feel free to provide a link to the Register article but I doubt the story is very well documented. The facts simply do not bear out your portrayal.

[rebitzman]

++I have not apologized to Rabbi Allen for what?++

Gee .....I don't know. Perhaps he or someone in his congregation read where you said that he didn't keep kosher?

A "fact" you have since conceded may or may not be "fact"?

And unless I am terribly misreading the Chofetz Chaim - even IF you were correct in your assertion, you would have had no real business making the statement.

Oh heck - maybe you're right. After all - the pillow HAS been tore open, and the feathers HAVE been scattered to the wind. What's the point in trying to put them back?

[Shmarya]

The facts simply do not bear out your portrayal.

Please.

I posted the Register piece last week.

You dismiss every report you do not like as false, and you believe everything you are told by the people doing the abuse.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I *have* apologized, in the very forum in which I made that statement.

Shmarya, I did not say it was false. I said provide a link. I am not sure where on the blog it is. I do not believe it provides you the cover you need to avoid retracting your post. I also mentioned that I spoke directly to the workers and most of my information came from them.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rebitzman, if my apology falls short it is because I have not yet ascertained whether I was in fact wrong. I still feel that an apology was called for, for making that statement given my uncertainty, but if I do find that I was not only unfair but also inaccurate I will restate my apology to reflect that.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Getzel: If there is a dead horse to beat, don't sell its meat as kosher.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I wouldn't sell it even if I could. That would deprive Shmarya of his horse, and that would be abusive.

[rebitzman]

++if my apology falls short it is because I have not yet ascertained whether I was in fact wrong.++

According to the Chofetz Chaim - it doesn't really matter if you're wrong or not - the statement itself was out of line.

[rebitzman]

++I wouldn't sell it even if I could. That would deprive Shmarya of his horse, and that would be abusive.++

Tacky.....but at least you called him "Shmarya".

Small steps.

[SHMECKLE]

WOULS ANYONE EAT MEAT OR POULTRY THAT WAS SOLELY UNDER RABBI ALLEN'S SUPERVISION?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The statement was out of line and for that I apologized.

[rebitzman]

++WOULS ANYONE EAT MEAT OR POULTRY THAT WAS SOLELY UNDER RABBI ALLEN'S SUPERVISION?++

I don't believe HE would as the supervision of kosher slaughter requires training he doesn't have or PRETEND to have.

Did you have a point?

[rebitzman]

++The statement was out of line and for that I apologized.++

What you did before was qualify "IF I was wrong" and "Until I can acsertain...."

This time, you missed it by the letter "d".

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rebitzman:
++I would further clarify that I apologize for the making the original statement++
-- August 01, 2008 at 03:46 PM

And:
++A sentiment I should have had before making the comment, and I apologize(d) for that lapse.++
-- August 01, 2008 at 03:55 PM

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I can say it again if you'd like.

[rebitzman]

++I can say it again if you'd like.++

Well it does appear that I'm not the only one who missed the unqualified apology that specifically mentioned Rabbi Allen......

Besides.....I don't think we're REQUIRED to accept such an apology until you've made itthree times anyway.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I have spent more time than I can afford, searching for that quote in the sea of articles that mention Rabbi Allen. I cannot find it. I did find other people who made similar comments and either they saw the same quote or I had seen their comments and thought I had seen a quote.

Either way, I am going to drop the issue. In addition to my previous apologies,

I apologize for baselessly accusing Rabbi Allen of not keeping Kosher. I have no real information that supports that claim. I should not have made that statement.

There's three. *grin* And unqualified.

Sets the bar kind of high for the folks around here, but I am sure with a little help they can live up to it.

[Shmarya]

Thank you, Getzel.

Please keep trying to get your family to do the same, as well.

[rebitzman]

++I apologize for baselessly accusing Rabbi Allen of not keeping Kosher. I have no real information that supports that claim. I should not have made that statement.++

I see no wiggle room in this.

Shmarya?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I appreciate the acknowledgment, Shmarya. In all honestey, though,"folks around here" was a reference to this blog. I will continue to work with the company to improve and address the issues as well.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

honesty*

[justayid]

Dear Rabbi Bacharach,

I would like to thank you for your comments here. I'm just a rank and file Conservative Jew, of intermediate observance and learning - and I happen to be having some issues with my own rabbi lately - but your words reminded me of what I like about our movement, and what I admire about so many members of the Conservative/Masorti rabbinate.