Getzel Rubashkin Smears Conservative Jewish Leaders

Getzel Rubashkin says Rabbi Morris Allen does not keep kosher.

I know this to be untrue.

Rabbi Allen keeps kosher and so does…

…a very high percentage of his congregants.

Let's examine Getzel's remarks in more detail.

Getzel wrote:

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I understand that the proponents of HT don't keep "technical" kosher themselves and would hardly call for pots to be kashered.

And then clarified under pressure:

"I'm sorry for offending, … I was referring specifically to Rabbi Allen. Proponents was the wrong word to use. I was trying to avoid naming anyone in particular. I apologize for my poor choice of words which implied that all people who support HT do not keep Kosher. I do not believe that to be the case at all."

In other words, first Getzel smeared all people involved with Hechsher Tzedek and then, when confronted by some of those people, limited his smear to Rabbi Allen, its founder.

A large percentage of Agriprocessors' pre-raid customers were Conservative Jews.

I find it hard to believe these Jews will rush out to embrace the "new" Agriprocessors when the "new" Agriprocessors lies about their leaders.

Comments

[yidandahalf]

Getzel certainly has alot of mileage on him for what a twentysomething? Well on his way to being a crooked politician.

[John K. Diamond]

I'm as sorry as I can be about someone as highy intelligent as this, utilizing this G-d given gift for purposes more suited for the "dark side" of things.

Getzel can't claim that folks on this blog treated him, in any way, disrespectfully.

If he would have been more receptive to the many suggestions offered to transform Agri into something that would command respect and admiration from the Kosher consuming public, real progress could have been made.

Instead, there was long winded circular defensive talk instead of truly walking to make much needed improvements in Agri attitudes and facts on the ground.

[rebitzman]

Getzel (unlike those who jump in here behind an alias and post filth) has stood up - identified himself and has taken it straight on the chin.

Shamayra's post is accurate - but I kind of wish he (Getzel) had been given a chance to respond to my second challenge (about the kashrus or Rabbi Allen) before posting it as he HAS shown a refreshing ability to say "I was wrong" from time to time - which you will agree, is NOT "company" policy.

[Berel]

People have seen Morris Allen eating out in non kosher restaurants in his home town of St. Paul. He may not eat meat. But eating out, breaks the common norms of Halacha. You can't in in non kosher restaurants and claim to observe kasruth.

[HAGTBG]

Berel,

First of all, there is rumor and there is fact. Right now, w/o evidence you are putting forth rumor.

Second, it is common in NY for those keeping kosher to order food into a nonkosher restaurant, most especially for business meals. Your description works just as easily with that and its 100% fine and not even marat ayin since you should know that can be done.

Third, there are things you can order directly from a non-kosher restaurant such as a plain undressed salad and a bit more if you know what you're doing and coordinate with the kitchen.

Fourth, the norms of the Conservative movemment are not, by definition, Orthodox ones. If he's eating swordfish, Orthodox would say it was treif but obviously there is a long history that, to his movement, its not. Tell me what are Conservative norms for eating in restaurants among those they deem keeping kosher?

Shmarya,

Getzel Rubashkin has handled PR in the past week much better then the rest of the company and their PR flacks. He has, as someone pointed out above, been more candid then others. If he's said one thing that might be offensive that doesn't change that.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

@ least, conservatives are still jews (yidden) ! not so with the minim the rubbishkins are part of!

[Proud Reform Jew]

The rules of ka$hrut have been so perverted by the rabbinate over the last hundred years, that the actual practices seem to bear little relation to the original Torah text.

Many scholars have claimed that kashrut may have existed as something of a health code, keeping ancient Jews away from animals which were raised in disreputable conditions (ie pigs) and thus were more likely to make the eater ill. In that light, I've often wondered to what extent kashrut is relevant in our modern society. I know it's a big moneymaker for the OU and will never go away. But I for one have no problem eating a bacon cheeseburger AND still being a proud Jew.

Surely, a few out there will flame me and tell me to get back to yiddishkeit and that I'm a horrible person, but ask yourself: is it better to eat pork or financially support a criminal enterprise that causes serious harm to other human beings?

And as Shmarya hasn't put up a link yet, it seems like the NYT got it at least half-right. (Not a mention of the Rubashkins or any outrage against them, sadly.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/opinion/01fri1.html?ref=opinion

[Isa]

So is it kosher to eat the flesh of a cow that was still mooing when half its guts were on the floor? (throat ripping)
Then there are people here that give names of big Rabbis that tell their congregations "Don't eat Rubashkin"

[Archie Bunker]

"Second, it is common in NY for those keeping kosher to order food into a nonkosher restaurant"

This is false except for ignoramouses among the left wing modern orthodox and those who otherwise don't care about kashruth despite their professed affiliation with orthodoxy.

As much as I oppose Getzel's dishonest spin, he seems to be right about Morris Allen. If Allen follows the Conservative playbook, that is not the halachic standard of kosher.

And I hope "Proud Reform Jew" is speaking out of ignorance. The "scholars" he cites have no facts backing them up.

[steve]

is it better to eat pork or financially support a criminal enterprise that causes serious harm to other human beings?

PRJ makes an interesting point. Although eating pork is biblically forbidden (I believe even Reform Jews hold by the Written Law somewhat), by eating Rubashkin meat, one may be directly trangressing, or facilitating transgression of SEVERAL biblical commandments. Here's a few that come to mind:

1)Eating neveilos
2)Eating treifos
3)Tzaar Baalei Chayim
4)Lo Taamod Al Dam Reicha
5)Ushmartem Meod Lenafshotchem
6)Lo Taashok
7)Lifnei Ivver Lo Titen Michshol
8)Veasita Hayashar Vehatov
9)Chillul Hashem

[Joel]

How about Eiver minHaChai, if that things still alive as its being cut up.

[critical minyan]

as per an earlier post here, even Mcdonald's wont take non-kosher rubashkin meat because it doesn't meet their standards. The original kosher laws were based on health codes and standards for treating animals respectfully. (This is the reason for salting and bleeding the animal after its death - the ancients believed that the spirit of the animal was in its blood.)
If McDonald's wont take Rubashkin meat I think we can deduce that there are are some major shaileh's with the meat that Rubashkin sold in the past, some of it was definitely not-kosher.
Until all Orthodox Jews kasher their dishes and their kitchen's, they will still be eating Treif, even if Rubashkin has improved their current slaughtering process and the way they treat their animals.
When a butcher in Monsey sold non-kosher chicken as Kosher, everyone in Monsey Kashered their dishes and their kitchens. I think something similar has to be done now to ensure proper Kashrut going forward for anyone who has ever cooked with Rubashkin meat in the past.

[Shmarya]

Getzel Rubashkin has handled PR in the past week much better then the rest of the company and their PR flacks. He has, as someone pointed out above, been more candid then others. If he's said one thing that might be offensive that doesn't change that.

More to come on that, my friend.

As for the non-kosher restaurant, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has for years told people that is okay as long as what you eat is vegetarian. It's in one of his books, as well.

Rabbi Abadi, who is certainly haredi – he was posek of Lakewood before moving to Jerusalem and opening his own kollel – very publicly holds that many foods can be eaten in a non-kosher restaurant. He also correctly points out that Chaza"l themselves did this, and no one – even Archie or Getzel – has the halakhic standing to go against them.

Lastly, I'd point out that, until the early 1980s it was very common outside New York to find Orthodox Jews – including community rabbis – eating vegetarian food in non-Kosher restaurants.

[Joel]

I do have to commend that Getzel fellow though. He seems remarkably eloquent for a haredei educated 20 something year old. I remember my Haredei yeshiva education. There were kids in my class who could not read English......IN TENTH GRADE. I still remember we did a reading of Macbeth. Oy what a disaster. Like breaking teeth. Anyway, he seems to be weathering the onslaught well. At some point he will have absorbed enough info so that he can formulate a truly informed opinion on this matter.

[Joel]

It took me years to undo what my yeshiva had done. Years of a lot of reading, learning, and absorbing. Thank God I was able to re-educate myself. Not even "re", just educate myself.

[Archie Bunker]

I'm willing to bet one reason why Shmarya will argue this point until he's blue in the face is because he is fressing in non-kosher restaurants himself.

Rabbi Abadi often goes with early minority opinions that were not codified in the Shulchan Aruch. There is a reason why he was pushed out of Lakewood.

While he may feel he is upholding the letter of the law, some of his disciples like Rabbi Gissinger have been creating disasters in kashruth with treif meat / fish in restaurants and insect infested vegetables.

Adin Steinsaltz is a fringe character who never had a formal Jewish education at the radical atheist kibbutz he was raised on. I will still give him the benefit of the doubt that he wrote that nonsense before more information became available in the 1980s regarding insects in vegetables.

[bernice]

Rabbi walks in on congregant being served a piglet in a restaurant.. Howie? I'm shocked..Rabbi I ordered an apple & this the way they served to me....

Waiter on ultra kosher affair comes into salad room " one undressed salad please"

Rabbi jumps up "excuse me, please tell guest this is a verry religious affair- nothing goes out undrressed" farshteist?

[steve]

Bernice,

This is the way I heard the joke:

Rabbi walks in on congregant eating a piglet in a restaurant.. "Howie? I'm shocked.."

"Rabbi, were you watching me the whole time"?

"Yes, I was!"

"So then there's nothing wrong since it is under rabbinical supervision!"

[Yochanan Lavie]

Personally I gave up pork after learning that chanukkah was more than the Jewish christmas, but to each his own. Health issues never entered into it for me.

Bugs that cannot be seen plainly with the naked eye don't count. A thorough rinsing will get rid of larger bugs.

Thank God the MO yeshiva high school I attended gave me a superior secular education. The public schools I attended before it were not bad, but in 9th grade we tackled the Odyssey. That got me hooked on literature- we never did anything real in my prior years. (We read it in an adult translation). Ironically, I now teach in a fairly decent public high school, but I would only teach the Odyssey in that translation (Penguin, prose) to seniors. On the other hand, I have met American born chassidim who can barely speak English.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Here's another joke.

An alter Yid, who has been very frum, dies.
He is taken to Gan Eden to partake of the heavenly banquet. He asks of God "Nu? Who is the mashgiach?" God replies "None other than Moshe Rabbeinu himself!" The man hesitates a moment: "eh... I'll just have a piece of fruit."

[CONSERVATIVE RABBI]

A rabbi walks by a non kosher restaurant, peers inside and sees his temple president sitting at a table eating. He lingers a while while the man finishes his meal and asks as they meet outside "Harry, how could you eat in that place". Harry, the temple president answers "Rabbi, I saw you watching me and realized that the place was under rabbinival supervision."

[Archie Bunker]

"Bugs that cannot be seen plainly with the naked eye"

You'd be surprised how many bugs can be seen plainly when they crawl out of the crevices or stop camouflaging themselves.

[Rabbi Shaina Bacharach]

My first time into this fray, at least on this blog, and hopefully my last. I hope to offer food for thought. I am not fond of internet arguments for many reasons. I did feel it important to make a few points.

Full disclosure: I am a conservative rabbi and member of the Rabbinical Assembly. To publicly state that any of my colleagues do not observe kosher (or other halachot) is blatant lashon harah.

The repeated lashon harah expressed against my colleagues -- especially Rabbi Morris Allen -- does call for a public apology and teshuvah. Even a cursory understanding of rabbinic sources makes this clear. And yet, we're still waiting for an apology regarding the use of a pr firm to slander him.

This is a digression, but Getzel, I'm curious about the justification of food cooked on Shabbat. I am aware that food may be partially cooked before Shabbat and heated on Shabbat, as long as nothing needs to be turned on, but I have never heard that its permissible to cook. I do not allow this in my home or synagogue, even by non-Jewish employees. Shabbat is Shabbat. Why on earth would we want to have something cooked then? If we're en route (stopped for Shabbat), we can still make proper arrangements.

Back to the central issue, I am dismayed at the glaring lack of the word most central to any discussion of kashrut: kedushah.

I (and many other rabbis) are faced with the daunting prospect of teaching about kashrut as well as convincing Jews to remain kosher in light of so many other violations of Hashem's laws in the process.

How on earth can we disconnect kedushah of the process and think we are serving Hashem?

This scandal is not only a shandah, it is public, and an embarrassment to our people.

I would give up meat before eating meat that is not slaughtered and processed in furtherance of kedushah. Hashem didn't just give us technical directions, he gave us a blueprint for living. The letter of halacha can become halachah for its own sake and not Hashem's.

In the real world, this is hard, and none of us are so perfect that we emerge from life unstained by sin. But aren't we supposed to try? Hashem wants all of us to do teshuvah. Rather than justify past unsavory practices, teshuvah means turning, really turning, not slandering others. It's okay to be wrong! It's just not okay to justify wrong actions.

We are moving closer to 9 Av, and yet different Jewish groups are throwing baseless charges at each other and forgetting that we're all Jews, that lashon harah is a sin, that mistreating people is a sin, that Hashem is King, and we lost our Beit Hamikdash over these same attitudes.

May this Shabbat give everyone a chance to think and turn to Hashem for guidance. May we learn -- and live -- the lessons of 9 Av .
Shabbat shalom

[Archie Bunker]

Nice to see that the "hechsher zedek" gang is promoting such things as thrip infested vegetables. Of course these troublemakers from Commack, NY, have been in trouble for other things besides bugs.

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/print/20080731Yarmeischkosher07312008.html

Published: 07/31/2008

Two kosher butchers filed a motion to stop the state of New York from enforcing its kosher laws.

The motion, filed Monday in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, is the latest twist in a suit aimed at reversing New York laws that seem to favor Orthodox kosher certifiers.

Brian and Jeffrey Yarmeisch, brothers who run a kosher establishment on Long Island, consider certain unmarked foods like frozen vegetables to be kosher -- a practice allowed by most Conservative rabbis and opposed by Orthodox ones.

Under New York law, only products labeled as kosher can be sold as kosher. The Yarmeisch brothers are in violation of the law by selling prepared foods with a kosher label that have unmarked ingredients.

An affidavit submitted by Rabbi William Berman, a Conservative rabbi who certifies the Yarmeisches' food, claims the state is favoring one Jewish denomination over another, The New York Jewish Week reported.

[R]

i would be wary aout eating at non osher restaraunts, simply because you don't know what goes on in the kitchen. Smoked salomon is probaly ok and a plain salad. No one uses un-washed vegetables; it causes food poisoning.
Kosher is not simply about eating healthy as we can see there are plenty kosher foods packed with salt, sugar, fat, sat fats, preservatives and colourings. Health has nothing to do with it.
I know plenty people that eat at veg restaraunts, but vegan/vegetarian does not equal kosher.

[Archie Bunker]

Funny how Shandah Bacharach is using the same disingenious m.o. as Rubashkin supporters by invoking "lashon hara" to silence critics of Morris Allen.

There is of course no prohibition of lashon hara - one is even required to utter lashon hara to warn people who may be harmed. There is a purpose in warning the public of both the dangers of Rubashkin and phony Conservative "leaders" who lead Jews astray with various prohibited behaviors.

[steve]

There are several issues with eating out in non-kosher restaurants. One the main problems is bishul akkum.

[Archie Bunker]

"Smoked salomon is probaly ok"

Non-kosher species have been substituted in place of salmon.

The smokehouse may also be cooking non-kosher items which impart treif into the kosher fish. A non-kosher taste imparted through certain types of cooking renders food unkosher.

[Archie Bunker]

Steve is going to land himself in the doghouse with that bishul comment. Shmarya doesn't like any halachos that put non-Jews in a separate classification.

[Shmarya]

Funny how Shandah Bacharach is using the same disingenious m.o. as Rubashkin supporters by invoking "lashon hara" to silence critics of Morris Allen.

There is of course no prohibition of lashon hara - one is even required to utter lashon hara to warn people who may be harmed. There is a purpose in warning the public of both the dangers of Rubashkin and phony Conservative "leaders" who lead Jews astray with various prohibited behaviors.

There is a big difference, Archie.

Rabbi Bacharach believes her actions and Rabbi Allen's actions are permitted.

Presumably, no Orthodox rabbi believes abusing workers is okay. They invoke lashon hara not because Rubashkin is truly presumed innocent, but because the opposite is true.

[Archie Bunker]

"Bacharach believes her actions and Rabbi [sic] Allen's actions are permitted."

The rank & file of uneducated secular Jews have always been victims of their so called rabbis who know better but purposely lead them astray. The only way Shmarya could be correct in saying that that Bacharach & Allen believe they are correct is if JTS alumni have become so unlearned that they are just as uninformed as the masses and are in error instead of knowingly sinning like the Conservative "rabbis" of old.

[Archie Bunker]

"Presumably, no Orthodox rabbi believes abusing workers is okay. They invoke lashon hara not because Rubashkin is truly presumed innocent, but because the opposite is true."

While Shmarya is correct that there are corrupt men hiding behind the guise of the orthodox rabbinate, I have found that many rabbis are simply naive. If most people were not naive, the likes of Lubinsky and 5W would be out of business.

[steve]

Archie,

Whether you like it or not, halacha is halacha. There are laws regarding bishul akkum according to every posek, whether a Jew has to at least turn on the fire or he has to also mix the ingredients, etc. Some people think that Judaism is one big supermarket where you can pick and choose which halachos to follow. Of course nobody is perfect and nobody keeps every halacha fully. However, denying that a halacha exists or ridiculing a halacha is a lot worse. I have more respect for a Jew who is totally non-observant, but respects our laws and traditions and doesn't dispute them, than one who keeps almost all the mitzvos and ridicules certain halachos.

In regards to Rabbi Allen, what the Rubashkins and their supporters are trying to do is create smoke screens. They constantly try to attack the messenger, whether it's PETA, Rav Yudel Shain, Shmarya, Rabbi Allen, etc. They will do anything and say anything to change the subject and to move the spotlight away from them. Therefore, the legitimacy of Conservative Judaism and it's leaders is not the issue here. I welcome their input and they have raised legitimate halachic issues regarding how food should be produced. Let's give credit where credit is due.

Rabbi Breuer zt"l once said that "glatt yosher" is more important than "glatt kosher". Let's give credit where credit is due. With Rubashkin you get neither.

[Archie Bunker]

After reading Shandah Bacharach's discourse on "furtherance of kedushah", get a load of this from the website of her Temple in Green Bay, Wisconsin:

http://www.cnesses.org/index.htm

"As an fully egalitarian congregation, we value diversity, welcome interfaith families, and emphasize inclusion."

And I'm just curious if this self-righteous woman showed up at the Postville protest in her oversized tallis:

http://www.cnesses.org/rabbi.htm

[Archie Bunker]

I don't dispute that the Conservative leader bunch are raising valid concerns. It's just that their hypocrisy is too much for me.

[Shmarya]

Just realize cold vegetables, a veggie burger or veggie stir fry do not fall under the purview of bishul akum, and bishual akum can be handled very easily when it does apply.

[steve]

Here you can read and learn a little about the laws of bishul akkum and where they apply:

http://kosherveyosher.com.au/modx/index.php?id=79

[Archie Bunker]

Assuming that Shmarya is referring to a completely vegetarian restaurant, there are still plenty of kashruth concerns like non-kosher miniature sea horses in sea weed.

I know plenty people that eat at veg restaraunts, but vegan/vegetarian does not equal kosher.

Vegans don't eat any sort of animal product, let alone bugs. Philosophical (as opposed to health-motivated) vegetarians would also not eat bugs.

So, the bug matter, for vegan and vegetarian restaurants, should be a non-issue.

The rank & file of uneducated secular Jews have always been victims of their so called rabbis who know better but purposely lead them astray. The only way Shmarya could be correct in saying that that Bacharach & Allen believe they are correct is if JTS alumni have become so unlearned that they are just as uninformed as the masses and are in error instead of knowingly sinning like the Conservative "rabbis" of old.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | August 01, 2008 at 10:25 AM

While Shmarya is correct that there are corrupt men hiding behind the guise of the orthodox rabbinate, I have found that many rabbis are simply naive. If most people were not naive, the likes of Lubinsky and 5W would be out of business.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | August 01, 2008 at 10:28 AM

So the Conservative and Orthodox Rabbinates are both in the same boat as far as naivete goes, then.

Funny how Shandah Bacharach . . .
After reading Shandah Bacharach's discourse

And calling her "Shandah" just helps so much.

[Archie Bunker]

"So, the bug matter, for vegan and vegetarian restaurants, should be a non-issue."

Theoretically yes, but they are consuming plenty of bugs because they don't check the vegetables properly.

[critical minyan]

To prevent aiver min hachai and animal suffering, after the traditional shechita with a knife, which is no longer the most humane way of killing, the animal should be killed immediately or concurrently with a bolt.
This way kosher meat would be humane enough to be served at mcdonald's. It is shocking that McDonald's might be more machmir than the ultra-Orthodox Rabbi's with the monopoly on the Kosher slaughtering process.
I am all for tradition, but it should not come at the expense of a suffering animal.
Jew's who want to keep Kosher, should switch to meat killed this way and before they bring it into their kitchen's should kasher all their dishes and ovens.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Thank you, Shmarya, for taking the high road by not pointing out the inaccuracy and allowing me to address it before blowing it out of proportion.

I remember reading a quote by Rabbi Allen in which he stated that he is a vegetarian but he does eat at non-Kosher restaurants. I will try to find that quote again, and if I remembered incorrectly, misunderstood, or came to a wrong conclusion I apologize, as I have in the past on this issue. If anyone knows where that quote was, I would appreciate a link. Also, if anyone knows of a place where Rabbi Allen clarified that quote, it would be appreciated as well.

This could all have been in that conversation, and we can all thank Shmarya for dedicating a post to this, taking the opportunity to portray me as a lying monster.

One wonders what is expected. When an apology is offered for an issue which was raised, it is mocked as insincere, and when it is not offered at all the offender is unrepentant.

John: My arguments have *not* been circular. I will not allow you to paint them as such without comment. Please specify my circular argument.

Rabbi Shaina Bacharach: As I indicated, my comment was based on my memory of a quote by Rabbi Allen and my understanding of it. I make no claim of knowing other people's standards. As indicated, I apologize if I was mistaken, as I apologized for my poor choice of words in my first comment.

Incidentally, I was obviously not responsible, but when I heard that he had not received an apology I felt morally obligated to express regret as an individual, and I did so via email.

Of course we do not *want* food to be cooked on Shabbos. However, in the event that someone violated the Shabbos, if he did so intentionally, he may not eat that dish forever but others may eat it immediately after Shabbos. If he cooked unintentionally, i.e. he forgot it was Shabbos, even he may eat the dish immediately after Shabbos.
(Shulchan Aruch HaRav)

My point was that there are specific Halachos that effect whether the food is permissible, whereas violating other Halachos does not invalidate the food. Obviously, all Halachos must be kept. I was simply expressing disagreement with the idea that other Halachos invalidate the food, and my position that to state so on the authority of the Torah is to modify Halacha.

As to your thoughts on Kedushah, I could not agree more. If you will read my comments on this blog you will see that I do not deny the fact that there is room for improvement. Neither does Agriprocessors, in my experience, poor PR notwithstanding. They do improve, daily, and an objective analysis of deeds rather than words bears this out.

To go back to my earlier point, giving up meat produced unethically is a beautiful personal decision. My only issue is with giving that Halachic weight.

I would also point out that the (at times poorly chosen) rhetoric of those advocating change is partially responsible for the Chilul Hashem.

Of course, I will be attacked by those who claim Agri is not interested in change etc. But I make this statement from the belief and knowledge that Agriprocessors is interested in, and in fact actively accomplishing, improvement every day.

Those who portray the company otherwise are, to my mind, exacerbating the Chilul Hashem caused by the poor PR of Agriprocessors.

Yes, the poor PR.

Countless companies have dealt with issues such as Agri's without the public uproar, and the public's disapproval is not a "given."

If Agriprocessors was *seen* as actively working to address the issues, as they in fact are, there would be no Chilul Hashem. Their negative image, caused by poor PR and sometimes exacerbated by some of the rhetoric of those calling for change, is the cause of the Chilul Hashem.

That said, it is ultimately our responsibility, and our issue to address.

Realize, however, that having to block punches makes it harder to roll up your sleeves.

[Paul Freedman]

I am surprised at the romanticizatio of non-kosher slaughter--do readers really believe an animal doesn't suffer by having a bolt driven into its skull?

A thought experiment--pretend to be that animal in your imagination.

Zap Crunch Shmush

Is your slaughter pain and suffering free?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Steve: As a supporter of Rubashkin who has neither put up smoke screens nor attacked any messengers, nor attempted to change the subject, I would appreciate an apology for your blanket statement, or at least a clarification.

I made a poor choice of words, was called on it, and clarified. Please do the same.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel is using the same tactics of those covering up child molestation. Accusing the ones who are trying to fix the problem of "chilul Hashem". If the Rubashkins weren't in a corner now they would not be making much if any effort to improve. DOn't blame others for your own chilul Hashem. That is but one of the Rubashkin smoke screens.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, on the other hand, with this attempt to portray me in a negative light without allowing me to either defend my position or apologize, by portraying my apology as insincere etc. *is* engaged in a thinly veiled attempt to attack the messenger.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

and you are engaging in this blog's official past-time "hit the straw man." I clearly stated that it is Agriprocessors responsibility to clear up any misunderstanding concerning their policies and improvements and continuing efforts. I merely pointed out that those who portray Agri in what I know to be a false light are partly responsible for the Chilul Hashem. Take responsibility for your actions. Don't ignore or downplay efforts to improve. And if you do, accept some measure of responsibility for the resulting perception people have of the company.

[state of the Jews]

And I'm just curious if this self-righteous woman showed up at the Postville protest in her oversized tallis:

Heh Archie - did you show up?

Did you try and break into the YI dog and pony show, or did you spend Shabbat in Postville so you could attend the Hispanic House Caucus hearings and hear testimony of abused workers?

Look no one is perfect but we need to keep our eye on the ball and the CM is not the ball.

BTW, there are more then 300 recognized kosher certifying agencies in this country. Think they all agree on kosher standards? We wish!!!

[Archie Bunker]

Lubavitchers should be aware of the shitas Rambam that teshuva is not possible without azivas hachayt.

Getzel claims that there is now a mashgiach temidi on all segments of Agri ("except in the freezer"). This would be a good start, if true.

Agri has to stop the rest of their transgressions too.

- Stop allowing your agents to mistreat the workers

- Stop the throat ripping

- Institute a meat tracking system

- Stop shooting animals BEFORE shechita

- Stop shooting animals AFTER shechita with Belsky's dubious "heter" that no posek in history has ever agreed with

- Stop selling the fake "glatt" beef and stop using "glatt" designations for chicken

- Allow surprise inspections by the hashgochos

- Allow shochtim & bodkim to speak to independent rabbonim without fines & other threats

- Get rid of the treif operations which violates a takkana

- Stop producing ox tail which violates another takkana

- Stop pushing cows suspected of being sick with BSE back into production

- Clean up the filth and pathogens

- Stop altering labels on ancient meat

[steve]

Getzel,

You know very well what I'm talking about regarding attacking the messenger. Here is but one of the many articles:

http://www.vosizneias.com/16735/2008/06/04/postville-ia-deceptive-jewish-rabbis-and-their-hechsher-tzedek-crap/

When I mentioned the Rubashkins and their supporters, I wasn't trying to single you out, or focus on your careless remark about Rabbi Allen. The fact that you later apologized for it is noted and is commendable.

As I mentioned several times, you need to stop making silly excuses and start outlining the exact changes that you keep making vague references to. Please stop blaming your troubles and the chillul hashem on "poor PR". What your company needs is to conduct their business with honesty, integrity, and transparency, in accordance with halacha and the laws of the land. Once you get that down pat, the "good PR" will come naturally. As observant Jews, you need to be a company that others would want to emulate. That is the difference between a Kiddush Hashem and a Chillul Hashem, which is taking place now, almost on a daily basis. I am much older than you and I speak from experience when I tell you that PR is not the answer when one is faced with adversity. You need to own up to all the mistakes and start to make real changes. PR only disguises the problems and creates an illusion that all is well, when it really isn't. PR and heavy weight lawyers is what your company has resorted to every time when faced with another scandal and crisis. It hasn't helped until now and it never will. I don't mean to imply that Messrs. Lubinsky, Torossian and Lewin are bad at their professions. Sometimes the overwhelming truth and evidence cannot be covered up, even by the best spinmeisters.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

There are Mashgichim in all production areas. They are given free reign in the plant. They can, if they choose to, visit the freezer or any other area at any time.

If by "allow your agents to mistreat workers" you mean encourage or condone that behavior, they do not. If you mean failing to address complaints I believe that is the reason complaints now go through an outside contractor straight to Jim Martin. If complaints were not addressed before, someone was failing to do their job.

I do not believe any throat ripping is being done.

There *is* a meat tracking system, and I am tasked with modernizing some of the elements, which I am working on.

I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of, shooting before Shchita.

I have seen shooting after Shchita only in the event that the Shchita was not done properly and the animal was suffering. That is rare, and I know of no other shooting after Shchita.

Selling non-Glatt as Glatt is a serious accusation which I am unaware of, and Glatt chicken is ridiculous. Where have you seen that term? Try calling AgriP or any Rubashkin distribution and asking for Glatt chicken, or for non-Glatt chicken, I'm sure they will explain that there is no non-Glatt chicken, and all Kosher chicken is equally Kosher.

If by "Hashgochos" you mean certifiers of the plant, they need no invitation. If you mean other Hashgochos that has been discussed on this blog before.

I will ask the Shochtim if it is true that they cannot talk to outside Rabbonim.

Which Takanos are you referring to concerning Treif operations and oxtails, and are you familiar with the layout of AgriP and the degree of separation between the two departments?

The next two issues are a matter of complying with government regulations, something which AgriP is committed to doing. Issues that are raised are addressed.

It is wrong to misrepresent a products age and I hope that is not being done.

[Archie Bunker]

"complaints now go through an outside contractor straight to Jim Martin."

Are you saying he is now on top of things and we won't be seeing anymore newspaper reports?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Steve, the fact remains that improvements at AgriP are not noted, and its ongoing commitment to addressing issues is not acknowledged. I am in a position to know that that is not because they don't exist, but because of a lack of effective communication with the media and the public.

PR does not mean misrepresenting facts. It means engaging the public and presenting your story.

[Archie Bunker]

"I do not believe any throat ripping is being done."

We have heard empty promises along these lines from Genack who was later caught with his foot in his mouth (something like hoof in mouth disease that Agri should be aware of in South America)

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Newspaper reports that speak of someone bringing something to the attention of the company and being ignored? I should hope so.

[Archie Bunker]

"PR does not mean misrepresenting facts"

That's funny, considering that Lubinsky does this for your company on an almost daily basis.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I can only tell you what I see with my eyes. I was in there yesterday and saw no throat-ripping.

[Archie Bunker]

"someone bringing something to the attention of the company and being ignored?"

It shouldn't even get to that point. If Agri's employees and outside contractors are disciplined you won't have much frequency in those areas.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I cannot answer for Lubinsky, nor have I really examined anything he's said. I think the PR industry would come down on my side, as far as what they do.

[steve]

Glatt chicken is ridiculous. Where have you seen that term?

It's on every one of your poultry labels. In fact there was a paper attached to one of your chicken products that states proudly "this glatt kosher chicken has been prepared for you by Aaron's, etc.".

[Getzel Rubashkin]

One of the things Jim was talking about yesterday was the increased attention being focused on improving training in those areas and better communicating to the employees the company's seriousness about these issues, but you can hardly expect the company to know of all issues. You *can* expect them to be dealt with when raised.

[Archie Bunker]

"There *is* a meat tracking system"

Really now? So there is no more employee theft to the tune of millions of dolaros? There is no more hefkerus with the kosher labels?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The term has no Halachic meaning. You cannot buy a non-Glatt Kosher chicken. I don't believe that it is intended to mislead. I never noticed that on the label.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Archie, what in the world are you talking about?

[Archie Bunker]

"you can hardly expect the company to know of all issues"

Common decency / basic derech eretz is too much to ask?

[Archie Bunker]

Your father R' Sholom has complained to people about the employee theft but still would not institute a tracking system.

Numerous witnesses have confided to independent rabbonim about label switching.

[HAGTBG]

Archie Bunker,

Just about every kosher restaurant in NYC has a thriving business delivering prepared kosher meals to non-kosher restaurants. Tons of extremely Orthodox persons - far more then just the left wing - eat like this in non-kosher restaurants and it is 100% fine.

To assume that someone frum in a non-kosher restaurant is even eating the food of the place is not a safe assumption.

[Archie Bunker]

"I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of, shooting before Shchita."

A USDA Agent notes in a report that he witnessed shooting BEFORE shechita on the "KOSHER" side. The link was provided on 2 other blogs to the USDA webpage.

[Archie Bunker]

HAGTBG, I was referring to those who eat the food prepared by the non-kosher establishment and there are plenty of them who are not ashamed to admit it

[Archie Bunker]

"That is rare, and I know of no other shooting after Shchita."

Rabbi Shain says that Belsky was matir and that he himself witnessed Agri doing this in regular production years ago before he was declared persona non grata.

[Archie Bunker]

"Selling non-Glatt as Glatt is a serious accusation which I am unaware of"

Two points here

- non-glatt or even treif is alleged to be labled as glatt

- Agri also uses a creative interpretation of glatt which I'm told is highly questionable and has never been implemented by any other producer in history

[Archie Bunker]

"If by "Hashgochos" you mean certifiers of the plant, they need no invitation."

Unless something changed very recently, even the top brass of the OU could not come without giving advance notice.

A very prominent NY rov tells me this is one reason why he has not eaten any Rubashkin product in a long time, the other is because of how his friend Rav Chaim Kohn was mistreated.

Similarly, State agents have testified that they can't get into Agri without a signed warrant.

Getzel, there is serious problem with your replies. I do not suspect you of being an outright liar. I think you are being fed a whole lot of hogwash.

[Archie Bunker]

"I will ask the Shochtim if it is true that they cannot talk to outside Rabbonim."

The blogs posted copies long ago of the contract they were forced to sign that seems to be in violation of Federal Whistleblower laws.

[steve]

I don't believe that it is intended to mislead. I never noticed that on the label.

You must admit that it's very misleading, considering that other brands such as Vineland and Kiryas Yoel only state "kosher" on their labels. Whether it's intended or not, the result is the same and it must be corrected at once.

[Archie Bunker]

"Which Takanos are you referring to concerning Treif operations and oxtails, and are you familiar with the layout of AgriP and the degree of separation between the two departments?"

"Degree of separation" is irrelevant. Because of chemdas hamammon, over 100 of the gedolei rabbonei America enacted a takkana that is binding in 1937 that the same company may not have both kosher & treif operations. There is a copy of the letter from R' Moishe Feinstein's beis din that reiterates the issur in 1955.

The OU was put on the spot over this recently. They tried to weasel their way out with a non-answer that is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

There is another takkana from the kadmonei America not to use the entire hindsection of cattle (and perhaps other animals as well) because of shverkeiten with gid hanosheh & chaylev. The Muszay-Ropshitzer Rebbe, Rav Rubin a'h, who also served as Commissioner for Kashrus Enforcement at the NY State Agriculture Dept was furious at the OU for allowing producers to be poretz geder but was too intimidated to carry out his wish of confiscating any such meat and leveling fines.

[steve]

Degree of separation is irrelevant when the there is nobody supervising the labeling and shipping. Also, the availability of labels to anyone from truck drivers to store owners is a serious problem. There was a store on Avenue J in Brooklyn that was caught labeling Rubashkin plain "kosher" meat as "glatt kosher". They were also distributing this mislabeled meat to other stores. Granted this was not Rubashkin doing the mislabeling, but supplying the storeowner with these labels was irresponsible.

[Archie Bunker]

As far as I know, Rubashkin did not supply the labels to the guy on Ave J. There was an independent fraudster working with the store owner who is well known in the kashrus industry who was caught redhanded by a useless mashgiach from Kehillah who let him get away with all the evidence. I don't recall the fraudster's name at this point but there was discussion of him on UOJ's blog at the time.

This is not to say that there aren't problems elsewhere with Rubashkin labels. Rabbi Shain says that even illegal alien Hispanic workers have been in possession of them.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Again, as a private person I can only speak from my experience and present logical arguments.

I did not say common derech eretz is too much to ask.

I don't know what theft you are referring to, nor what tracking system you expect and how the two issues connect, but there is a system.

I cannot answer for R' Shain or what he purportedly saw years ago. I can only share my 14 years of personal experience, during which I spent hours watching the kill floor. I have seen rare occurrences of shooting after Shchita, as I described.

I have never seen shooting before Shchita nor do I know of any reason to do such a thing. If it happened as the USDA witness claimed it did I would suggest that there may have been circumstances which explain or justify that, as it is definitely not a regular practice, and I am sure the animal was designated Treif.

Glatt/non-Glatt: "alleged," "I'm told." 'Nuff said. Anecdotally, I am told the Glatt percentage here has always been lower than the percentage at Alle. If that is true, and AgriP is being creative it would seem to be in the wrong direction.

The local representatives of the Hechsherim definitely have free run of the plant. I don't know about the arrangements with the "top brass." Is your information first-hand?

I agree that Glatt Kosher chicken is ridiculous and should be changed. That said, I don't believe it is misleading because it is common knowledge that there is no such thing. I don't believe anyone looks for Glatt Kosher chicken, believing it to be a higher standard.

No Takkana is as simplistic as you present it, and as I am unfamiliar with the details I will hold off on discussing it until I am.

[Marvin]

Getzel,
Though I detest Lubavitchers in general and especially the dishonest empty spinmeisters that most of them are,I really want to give you credit for your amazing eloquence (especially for a Lubavitch yeshiva grad)and ability to actually admit to not being 100 % perfect!
I really mean this.
Btw,I'm really amazed at your gift of eloquence especially coming from such a bunch of in eloquent fill in the blanks....

You probably need to get yourself your own career and not be bogged down by your families business which is no place for a nice intelligent kid even if ALL was good and well in Postville.

Btw, your uncle Milton can take lessons from you about p.r, you do a job that's a million times better than his sad attempts

[steve]

Anecdotally, I am told the Glatt percentage here has always been lower than the percentage at Alle.

You know that there's no way of verifying such a statement. The difference is that Alle has no shaychus to the treife meat, so they have no reason to mislabel and misrepresent. The cloud of suspicion will not go away from Rubashkin until the tracking system is in place, special labels designed so that they cannot be imitated and full time independent mashgichim are present when all labeling and shipping is done.

I agree that Glatt Kosher chicken is ridiculous and should be changed.

Baruch Hashem. Now get it done.

That said, I don't believe it is misleading because it is common knowledge that there is no such thing

It is misleading and it gives an unfair advantage over the competition. Empire is also guilty of this and I'm not sure who started it first. Nevertheless, you should take the lead and publicly challenge Empire to do the same. This will level the playing field.

No Takkana is as simplistic as you present it, and as I am unfamiliar with the details I will hold off on discussing it until I am.

Here's a copy of the takkana with the list of rabbonim who signed it:

http://tinyurl.com/6otf97

Good Shabbos!

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, on the other hand, with this attempt to portray me in a negative light without allowing me to either defend my position or apologize, by portraying my apology as insincere etc. *is* engaged in a thinly veiled attempt to attack the messenger.

Your "apology," Getzel, was to say that it was not all leaders of Hechsher Tzedek you meant – just Rabbi Allen.

Since both accusations were untrue – and because your apology for the first was to hurl the second – there is little doubt that your "apology" is insincere.

By the way, I believe Rabbi Allen is still waiting for a formal public apology from your family for the wrongs your PR firm did to him. So is Hechsher Tzedek. Same with John Diamond and the JVNA. Also true for Yochanan Lavie.

Lastly, for a guy who "doesn't represent" the company, you seem to have an awful lot of time to write and post copious blog comments during work hours.

What's up with that?

[Archie Bunker]

"I don't know what theft you are referring to, nor what tracking system you expect and how the two issues connect"

Rabbi Shain says your father gave him a dollar amount in the millions of how much the employees were stealing. Rabbi Shain believes Agri would not institute tracking because it would also stop mislabeling which is even more profitable.

[Archie Bunker]

"I have never seen shooting before Shchita nor do I know of any reason to do such a thing."

One obvious reason is that the animal is stabilized, making it much easier to slaughter.

[Archie Bunker]

"I am told the Glatt percentage here has always been lower than the percentage at Alle."

Insiders have confided to independent rabbonim that Agri's numbers are way too high, that no legit enterprise can have so much glatt output with some monkey business involved. The numbers from what I hear everywhere are way higher than Alle.

[rebitzman]

++Adin Steinsaltz is a fringe character who never had a formal Jewish education at the radical atheist kibbutz he was raised on++

++Funny how Shandah Bacharach . . .++

++After reading Shandah Bacharach's discourse++

Archie: Who was it I read just a couple of days ago boo-hooing about how rudely he'd been treated by the Rubashkins?

What a cry baby....

Oh wait....that was you.

[Rabbi Shaina Bacharach]

Dear Getzel, I wasn't going to post again, especially today, but I want to thank you for your thoughtful answer. I also appreciate the clarification about cooking on Shabbat and citing the source.

I can also see that you are seriously addressing many of the underlying issues.

Stepping aside from specific issues of heksher tzedek and pitting Jewish group against Jewish group, Getzel, I get the impression that you and I are not so different in our thinking and overall priority.

Kol ha'kavod for responding in this forum. Yes, you're blocking punches, but I hope you realize how much good you're also doing.

Some of the responses have given me serious food for thought (ignoring the ones who post without making real points).

I do believe it is important for all Jewish groups to respect each other. I am appalled by Conservative bashers, and equally appalled by Lubavitch bashing. If halachah was as monolothic and set as some believe, rabbis would have stopped writing teshuvot and codes after the publication of Rambam's Mishnah Torah.

I may have been hasty in my call for public apology. I do not wish to embarrass anyone, and apologize if I did.

Where do we go from here? Maybe it's time to stop looking back or even around and move forward -- and Getzel, my impression is that is just what you are trying to do.

Shabbat shalom

[Archie Bunker]

"The local representatives of the Hechsherim definitely have free run of the plant."

Misleading statement.

The OU et al are relying on Weissmandel who is the only one with free run.

[rebitzman]

++was in there yesterday and saw no throat-ripping.++

I'm sure you didn't as the USDA watches according to this rule:

“‘You are the Public Health Veterinarian assigned to monitor a kosher slaughterhouse… Today the establishment is ritually slaughtering cattle. Seconds after the shochet, a rabbi trained as a kosher butcher, cuts a steer's throat, a plant employee steps forward to make a second cut and pull out the steer's trachea, or breathing tube, and its esophagus, or gullet.

“‘The trachea and esophagus are dangling from the neck of the animal. . . . You are concerned as to whether the animal is sensible during this process…. But before you can call the District [supervisor] or adequately examine the animal . . . the steer begins to right itself, and then stands, and starts to stumble around in the bleeding area, flopping its head on adjacent equipment.’

“In such a situation, the document says, the federal inspector should immediately notify the slaughterhouse that it has a “conscious” animal “at a point in the process where it should be unconscious.” After waiting to verify that the animal has been put out of its misery, it says, the inspector should place a “U.S. Reject” tag on the device that restrains the cattle during slaughter and “inform the plant that the slaughter operation is suspended.

“‘You take these actions because the plant personnel performed a dressing procedure on a conscious animal, and because they failed to react appropriately to address a suffering, conscious animal. In addition, you inform establishment management that they will be receiving an NR [Non-compliance Record] for this egregious violation.’”

It is my understanding that you guys helped write it

[Archie Bunker]

"No Takkana is as simplistic as you present it"

Do I detect some Lubavitcher arrogance here because the Rebbe did not sign the takkanos?

Even so, the Baal Hatanya's takkana was also ignored.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, as I mentioned before, I have goals and deadlines to meet, but am otherwise free to budget my own time. Let's just say that I have taken inspiration from you and have made a personal dedication to blogging on FM, even though it makes my schedule a bit more hectic. I take your example to heart.

My first "accusation" was a poor choice or words, and the apology was not to "hurl the second" but rather to clarify my first comment, which I believed to be true. I was unaware that this was not an accepted fact and will now attempt to verify it. You could have given me the chance to respond before blowing it into a whole new post, but you didn't.

My first apology/clarification was sincere, as will be my second if I conclude that I was mistaken.

Marvin: I'm sorry that you detest Lubavitchers. I hope I can help soften that stance, as I feel Jews should not detest each other.

Steve: The motive to inflate Glatt percentages is present regardless of involvement in Treif. I am not making allegations, I am simply trying to put in context allegations of "creativity."

The improvements you mention are all improvements that I would like to see implemented as well, and am actively involved in, although I obviously disagree with your assessment of the current situation. I am still unsure as to what you mean by tracking system.

Thank you for the link to the Takkana.

[Shmarya]

My first "accusation" was a poor choice or words, and the apology was not to "hurl the second" but rather to clarify my first comment, which I believed to be true.

In other words, you have not really apologized – you have just refined your target.

[Archie Bunker]

Rebitzman, I did not "cry" about my experience and would think you should know the difference between a blog reader and Rubashkin who is in the business of customer service. It's besides the fact that there are times & places where it's appropriate to be rude.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Don't project your opinion of Lubavitch onto me please. As a fellow who seems to know a bit of learning you will appreciate that all legal statements have details and circumstances attached to them.

And the ALter Rebbe's Takkana which you refer to is...?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

No, Shmarya. In other words, I apologized for unintentionally maligning a group of people, when I was simply using "proponents" to avoid naming anyone, and never meant to imply that anyone supporting HT did not keep Kosher.

[rebitzman]

++Rebitzman, I did not "cry" about my experience++

You most certainly appeared to be, but I will accept what you are saying be hallachically I am obligated to give you the benefit of the doubt.

+It's besides the fact that there are times & places where it's appropriate to be rude.++

I see - when it's a Conservative rabbi - you can be rude simply because it's a Conservative rabbi.

I don't suppose you could site a hallachic source or three where it so indicates?

[Shmarya]

In other words, I apologized for unintentionally maligning a group of people, when I was simply using "proponents" to avoid naming anyone, and never meant to imply that anyone supporting HT did not keep Kosher.

No, Getzel. You said very claerly that proponents of HT do not keep "technically" kosher. You then modified that under pressure to refer to Rabbi Allen only.

You were wrong both times. You wrote without even knowing the facts. And you have not apologized, just like your family has yet to apologize to Rabbi Allen, to HT, to John Diamond, to JVNA, and to Yochanan Lavie.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Rebitzman: I don't understand your point about the USDA.

Archie: Which independent Rabbonim have shared this information? Incidentally, my information also came from an industry insider.

Speaking of insiders and Rabbonim, I don't know what contract you have floating around, or who signs it or requires it, but one of the Bodkei Pnim just walked by and I asked him if he knows of any such contract forbidding talking to outside Rabbonim. He said no. I asked him if he has ever spoken to outside Rabbonim about the plant and he said yes, naming the Debretziner and Rabbonim in Israel. I will continue to ask around about that.

Archie, if the O-U is relying R' Weismandl and he has free run of the plant, what exactly is the problem? Why do you portray the situation as if certifying agencies need permission to visit?

[rebitzman]

++Rebitzman: I don't understand your point about the USDA.++

The point is - you guys aren't tearing out throats.

The words I posted were the instructions given by the USDA to their inspectors at your plant. From what I have been able to glean - not only are you complying with those rules, your people assisted the USDA in writing them.

This is according to a USDA source at another slaughter plant that does kosher kills - who also has to adhere to them.