BREAKING! Rabbi Lerner Misled, Wrong, Postville Clergy Claims

Jeff Abbas of Postville Radio has another good interview, this time with Minister Paul Real and Father Paul Oudekirk of St. Bridget's Catholic Church. St. Bridget's has coordinated the feeding, shelter and healthcare for Agriprocessors displaced workers and has also fed dozens of new Agriprocessors hires too poor to buy food.

These clergy claim Rabbi Pesach Lerner's…

….account of their meeting is inaccurate.

Most of the first section is taken up with where the meeting was held. It seems picky, but you should realize for non-Jews, the difference between a Catholic Church and a Lutheren Church is very evident and significant.

But the end of part one deals with more important issues for us, especially Lerner's claim that Agriprocessors stocks Postville's food shelf., which REal and Ouedekirk strongly refuted.

Another mistaken claim made by Lerner – meeting with a Lutheran minister who is the head of the food shelf board – is false.

A Postville source tells me Agriprocessors set up a meeting with a Presbyterian minister, Rev. Gary Catterson, because he is very tied to Postville business interests and supportive of Agriprocessors.

Did Rev. Catterson say Agriprocessors "keeps the food shelf stocked,: as Lerner claimed?

I haven't reached Catterson yet. When I do, I'll be able to tell you if Catterson said it, or if Lerner is again mistaken. [UPDATE 8-7-08: Apparently Catterson said something like this because he's quoted this way in the Jewish Press, as well. But Ouderkirk and Real say Catterson's statement is false. I spoke with Ouderkirk today and he again repeated that.]

Listen to all three sections if you can:

Part One, Part Two, Part Three.

Each section is about seven minutes long.

Rabbi Lerner's full appearance on Zev Brenner's Talkline Radio Network show can be heard here. Real and Ouedekirk listen to and then respond to clips from this interview.

While I was waiting to hear the interview as it aired, I heard Postville Radio's 1 PM newscast – Arutz Sheva's English language broadcast. Wild!

Comments

who gives a crap. Failedsongwriter.com COMING SOON!

[steve]

THEY JUST KEEP ON SPINNING:

The following statement was just released by Rubashkin/Agriprocessors:

AgriProcessor’s published “job orders” — notices seeking applicants for open positions — always specify that applicants must be at least 18 years old. It has been and always will be our policy never to hire underage workers. Applicants sometimes falsify their ages in order to gain employment. In 2007 Agri fired four women in the sausage department who had falsified their birthdates. Agri had discovered that they were minors by an independent investigation conducted by its HR department, and not by any official notification.

The Iowa Labor Commissioner initiated an investigation into child-labor allegations in January 2008, with a letter to Agri. Agri cooperated in the investigation and responded promptly, explaining its hiring procedure and stating that, to its knowledge, no minors were then employed at its plant. The Labor Commissioner’s Office replied with a request for more detailed information from Agri, and the requested data was supplied ten days later.

On April 3, 2008, the Labor Commissioner conducted a surprise, on-site inspection of the plant. The team consisted of five inspectors, of whom one was described by the government office as a professional in identifying minors. The team walked throughout the facility, viewing the workforce and even questioning certain employees, and identified no minors working at the plant. Nonetheless, two weeks later, a government attorney told Agri that the government believed that some Agri employees were underage. Agri asked explicitly that these workers be identified, so that their employment could be terminated. The request was rejected. The Commissioner’s attorney stated that, before releasing the names, she wanted to review Agri’s records to ensure the individuals in question previously worked or are currently working at Agri. The company offered to allow the Commissioner to review the company’s records on April 30. The Commissioner declined, and stated that the review would occur on May 21. On May 12, before that review occurred and before the Commissioner identified the supposed underage workers of which he was aware, ICE conducted its raid at Postville and arrested persons who claim to be underage and who admit to having obtained employment with false documents.

Notwithstanding the leisurely pace of its investigation, the inability of even the government’s expert to identify any employees in the plant as minors, and the refusal to disclose the identities of any employees who the Labor Commissioner believed to be employed in violation of child-labor laws, the Commissioner has now issued an inflammatory press release alleging that there were “57 cases” and “egregious violations.” Agri categorically denies the suggestion that it knowingly hired or retained minors as employees and it protests the issuance of a press release that has patently been motivated by a desire to ride the crest of the wave of current public opinion adverse to Agri.

[bernice]

Rabbi Lerners Young Israel is the main beneficiary of the STAR-D kosher certification. The Star-D kosher certifies only Cholov-Treif items (all of their products are Cholov-Akum AKA cholov-treif).

The Star-K is the other recipient as they administer the Star-D certification.

The Star-K used to be the accepted Kosher certifier for Yeshiva people because they would only certify Cholov-Yisroel products.

The Star-K realized they are loosing some lucrative certifications that are cholov-akum. They went searching for a cover Organization to be the SHAIGATZ for them.

The rest is history.

[Archie Bunker]

Lubinsky must not be taking on any new clients considering he has to crank up the spin machine for Rubashkin on an hourly basis these days.

[Archie Bunker]

There is a rumor that Star-K is a fake cholov Yisroel in that they used powdered cholov stam in many instances.

[Archie Bunker]

I've been thinking that even Jim Martin can no longer protect the Rubashkins from criminal charges.

This latest trouble is very politically sensitive. The public is more appalled by crimes against children than anything else which will compel politicians to have the book thrown at Agri.

[bernice]

From what I understand, the powdered milk is actually from cholov yisroel powder.

I sure hope that it is that way on a constant basis. My hesitation is due to the fact that for a number of years the Star-K did not remove the treif cows from their cholov yisroel milk.

There are a few sources that can be used for CY powdered milk;
Mehadrin & J&J.
Tenuva's production for Klein's Ice cream.
The Aida Jerusalem should be making a USA production in August.

[bernice]

BTW Milk powder is not used in the capped whole milk, only in the Blue & green capped milk.

[Archie Bunker]

"motivated by a desire to ride the crest of the wave of current public opinion adverse to Agri"

This is rich. When I mention a fact that is not known to most people, Getzel is jumping up & down that it's not the general consensus. Then even when something is the general consensus, they have a problem with that too.

[rebitzman]

++There is a rumor that Star-K is a fake cholov Yisroel in that they used powdered cholov stam in many instances.++

An this isn't LaShon HaRah because.....?

[Carol Ann Varley]

{The public is more appalled by crimes against children than anything else...}

Archie goes to the heart of the matter; the situation is particularly egregious given the dangers of working in the meatpacking industry.

The situation is so serious, I can't even think of a quip to write.

It looks bad.

[Archie Bunker]

"this isn't LaShon HaRah because.....?"

... if true they are perpetrating a fraud against the public and the public has a right to know.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I like how when Agri releases a statement complete with verifiable dates and facts its spin and "ohhh this looks bad."

What, exactly, is the definition of spin in this usage?

I know you all now the answer, because you do this all the time.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

know*

[Take The High Road]

August 6, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
Dark Meat
By SHMUEL HERZFELD
Washington

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/opinion/06herzfeld.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[steve]

I think we're averaging one press release from Agri per day and two articles in major newspapers per day. Keep up the disgrace and the chillul hashem. You're PR machine is really working for you.

[sage]

I believe that Getzel needs to begin spending more time ruminating about his plans for the post-Rubashkin Postville.

The Iowa State criminal charges re: Illegal Child Labor are just the beginning. Iowa State criminal charges re: wage violations are likely to follow.

Then will come a host of Federal Criminal Charges.

Most likely, Agri will have to be sold to an owner who may use the State-Of-The-Art Hebrew National facility as a model to be emulated.

[rebitzman]

++... if true they are perpetrating a fraud against the public and the public has a right to know.++

And if it's not (and this is - by your own admission - a rumor) you've slandered them.

And no one has a right to do that.

I'd of thought an Orthodox "rabbi" would know that.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Archie is a Rabbi??

[Getzel Rubashkin]

No offense. I was just surprised. "Rabbi Archie Bunker..." It's just an unexpected combination.

[Archie Bunker]

The Star-K is guilty of bigger offenses that possibly playing around with powdered milk.

I thought that I had read that on Rabbi Shain's blog but I may have been confused with what Bernice is saying. As much as Rubashkin, OU, Lubinsky and the gang hate Rabbi Shain, he has been proven correct every time that I am aware of.

The Mishna says that there are people that you don't have to give the benefit of the doubt. Rubashkin and Star-K fall in that category.

I don't believe that I ever identified myself as a rabbi here.

[Archie Bunker]

* than possibly playing around

[rebitzman]

++I don't believe that I ever identified myself as a rabbi here.++

Not much of a denial, Archie.

++The Mishna says that there are people that you don't have to give the benefit of the doubt. ++

I love it when someone randomly give a citation.....without actually giving one.

++I thought that I had read that on Rabbi Shain's blog++

Oh....I am CERTAIN you did.

[Archie Bunker]

"randomly give a citation.....without actually giving one"

Try brushing up on your Pirkei Avoth.

We judge people on the scale of merit but those who are already guilty we jump to conclusions in the future to judge them on the scale of guilt.

[Archie Bunker]

Actually, I did say once that my background includes rabbinics, law and investment banking. I am still not a rabbi inasmuch as the term is usually used.

[yo]

how can you post every little piece of info about Agri and not post a link to Shmuel Herzfeld's editorial as a main page post?

[rebitzman]

++Try brushing up on your Pirkei Avoth.++

Like 1:6?

That says you're wrong.

Perhaps you should brush up on Torat Cohanim Parsha Kedoshim, or maybe the gemarah in Balvi Shabbat?

Oh heck - just read the Chofetz Chaim.

++who are already guilty we jump to conclusions in the future to judge them on the scale of guilt.++

By your own admission - you were citing rumor.

Rumor.

[bernice]

Getzel; We have a non-kosher plant or what they call kosher style operating under duress. It's well established that they are selling 70% +- treif. They are minaker in the range of 60 % +-, which would mean that they sell 60% +- of the forequarters as kosher (otherwise why be menaker). That ratio of kosher is the same as Hebrew National. The only difference is that Hebrew National doesn't label anything they need e.g. Bet-Yosef, Glatt, Supreme, etc.

When we have a plant selling 70% as treif,we also have "kol-di'porush" which would make the other meat also Osur.

When we have an established "chazakah" of a treif plant all across the board, even an "aid-echad" or 2 can't change that Chazakah see Darkei Teshuvah YD 127....

[Archie Bunker]

It's funny that Shmarya & his supporters criticize the laws of lashon hara as stifling information that is required to be repeated yet when I do so, the Wisconsin COnservatives here are all up in arms.

http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/aoi_image.php?id=32&width=1324

Meanwhile, he is some information regarding a previous question.

[Archie Bunker]

"see Darkei Teshuvah YD 127"

Not bad, a woman versed in the Munkatcher Rebbe's teshuvos.

Bernice, are you the rebbitzen of Rabbi Shain or some other relative?

[bernice]

Does Agri use any ZEBU (DNA)in any of their shchitas? If no, how is it verified?

[bernice]

I am a cousin to the woman that challenged Rabbi weismandel on his production of Hellman's Mayonaise, that he overlooked a key item. He didn't make another production.

[rebitzman]

++It's funny that Shmarya & his supporters criticize the laws of lashon hara as stifling information that is required to be repeated yet when I do so, the Wisconsin COnservatives here are all up in arms.++

Wow - deflect and run.

The great hallachic argument of "HE STARTED IT!"

++http://hamercaz.com/hamercaz/site/aoi_image.php?id=32&width=1324++

Yep - that Leiberman Clause is a REAL deal breaker.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

bernice: You're quite a scholar. Archie is having problems with a Sugya in Sotah, which also contradicts things you've said, I believe. Go give him a hand.

Your little rant there didn't make much sense, but I did understand that you are making claims as to how much meat is deveined. What is the source of that information?

[Archie Bunker]

In fairness to Rubashkin, there is Zebu DNA in much of the US cattle supply too.

[Archie Bunker]

Oh and Getzel, I haven't said I am having shverkeiten in the sugya. If I cross that bridge I will let you know. But thanks for your concern, buddy.

[Archie Bunker]

Bernice should enlighten us about the Weissmandel story with Hellman's. This is so ironic. Gornish makes a big shtink that no one should use any Hellman's product yet he caved in to lucrative prospects and started using Weissmandel's Rubashkin "Supreme". Gornish has about the worst timing in the world as it was 2 days before the world learned that KAJ was giving them the heave-ho.

[yidandahalf]

bernice @9:15 6 August re. Zebu. Bernice, you can see Zebu cattle being schechted in the Peta video of the Weinberg pen in Iowa if this is what you mean. Unless they are Brahmin of course. BTW, it is a great credit to this blog that you post here. I had meant to take the opportunity to comment on that before.

[rebitzman]

++In fairness to Rubashkin, there is Zebu DNA in much of the US cattle supply too.++

In fairness to them - the Zebu was declared kosher by Rabbi Ari Zivotofsky or the OU.

[bernice]

Brahmin is a type of Zebu.Rubashkins claimed the reason their ration of Kosher, Glatt, Bet-Yosef is much higher than industry standard is because they use strictly Black angus, which evidently NOT TRUE. So why is their ratio higher? They have the right Boidkim & the yank the lung after shchita to dislodge the adhessions.

BTW I am a BT. I took this pen name when I became employeed by a Governmental Agency utilising my background in Federal Tax law, not because of my limited knowledge in the Code of Jewish Law.

At least Getzel figured out the Sugya of Shoitah.

Lo-lichinum-hulach-.....Getzel you are in bad company (plant & the kosher supervisor).

[Archie Bunker]

The OU does allow Zebu in contrast to other certifiers who do not allow it since it is forbidden by the Chazon Ish and other authorities.

Rubashkin claims to be at the forefront of chumros but we have yet to see any examples of where that holds true.

[Archie Bunker]

http://postvillevoices.com/

Who is running this pro-Rubashkin propaganda outpost?

[bernice]

As others have said before, let's not confuse Chumrah with Chamoir or Maikil & kal. At Agri we are dealing with kalim & chamoirim-you can't talk sense to them.

[Archie Bunker]

That might inspire a rhyme among cheder kids:

Rubashkin shechor, kal kachamor.

[Archie Bunker]

Next time Getzel tries to convince everyone of Rubashkin benevolence in helping the environment, here is the background of Agri being forced by the Feds to do things to amend for their criminal polluting:

http://www.epa.gov/Region7/businesses/consent_decrees/agr_press_release083106.htm

AGRIPROCESSORS TO PAY $600,000 IN ENVIRONMENTAL CASE

United States Attorney Charles W. Larson, Sr. today announced a settlement with AgriProcessors, Inc., a meat processing plant in Postville, Iowa, that resolves a complaint filed on behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency (“EPA”).

In a consent decree lodged today in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Iowa, Cedar Rapids, AgriProcessors agreed to resolve federal claims that AgriProcessors failed to comply with wastewater pretreatment conditions and limitations, and alone or in conjunction with the discharges of other sources, introduced pollutants into Postville, Iowa’s, water treatment plant that caused the City to violate its wastewater permit. The settlement also resolves claims that AgriProcessors failed to properly submit emergency and hazardous chemical inventory forms and Toxic Chemical Release Inventory Forms for anhydrous ammonia present at its facility and that AgriProcessors failed to develop and implement a risk management program and submit a Risk Management Plan for anhydrous ammonia used in a process at its facility.

Today’s settlement requires AgriProcessors to pay $590,756 for a civil penalty. AgriProcessors also agreed to spend approximately $12,330 for emergency response equipment for the City of Postville Fire Department. AgriProcessors will also conduct environmental compliance audits at both its Postville, Iowa, facility and its facility at Gordon, Nebraska.

[sage]

From the 8-7-08 Edition of the Cedar Rapid Gazette on line Edition

THE GAZETTE’S EDITORIAL

Even more troubling charges

Charges that Agriprocessors violated child labor laws on a large scale may be the most damning indictment yet of the Postville meatpacking operation.

The Iowa Labor Commission announced Tuesday that its lengthy investigation has uncovered 57 cases with multiple violations of child labor laws. Allegations include minors working illegally in the plant, exposure to dangerous chemicals and working with prohibited tools.

The troubled company is still under federal investigation for possible violations of immigration related labor laws.

Agriprocessors has been under a national microscope since agents conducted the largest-ever, single-site immigration raid May 12. Most of the 389 workers arrested for using false identities are serving jail time before facing deportation. Six of those arrested were released because they were juveniles.

Advocates for the illegal workers say the company exploited them and even arranged for phony identity documents. Two supervisors have been accused of aiding and abetting illegal workers. So far, management has not been charged. All of which is very troubling and begs for some reform of U.S. immigration law that doesn’t seem to hold employers accountable for hiring illegal workers. Even more reprehensible, if true, are Agriprocessors’ alleged violations against minors.

Child labor is defined, in general, as work that harms or exploits children in some way or blocks their access to education. That doesn’t mean all work is bad for children.

Certainly, kids can learn good skills and responsibility and contribute to a family’s financial well-being with appropriate and limited job duties.

But there are compelling reasons for governments to enforce child labor laws. Abuse was rampant early in the industrial age. Even today, millions of children around the world are forced into jobs that are dangerous, with long hours, poor pay — conditions that most adults would shun unless desperate.

Because of federal and state laws, most Iowans may assume that exploitation of children is rare in our state. Indeed, when found, it usually involves lesser violations and one or two individuals.

But state officials said at least 57 juveniles ranging from age 14 to 17 years old worked illegally at the Postville plant. This is the same place where dozens of broken bones and hundreds of other injuries were reported between 2001 and 2006.

State officials fined the company earlier this year for multiple safety violations.

Iowa law is clear: No person under age 18 may work in a meatpacking plant. Other prohibited workplaces for minors include most manufacturing and mining sites.

Agriprocessors says its policy is not to hire underage workers and to terminate any employees found to be under 18. How well that policy has been enforced is clearly in doubt.

[Archie Bunker]

Rabbi Shain's blog is quoting a magazine report that Rubashkin produces bison in Nebraska. The mesorah to permit that animal is also questionable. the formidable talmid chochom Rav J. David Bleich has written in a halacha journal that Belsky is contradicting himself in being mattir it for the OU.

Another example of Rubashkin at the forefront of chumros?

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel, vu bist du? Du shlofst noch? Shoin elf a zaiger.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

It may come as a surprise to you, but people who are gainfully employed sometimes have things to do at elf a zaiger.

[Archie Bunker]

Ah, gainful employment. I'd love to know which other companies besides Agri & 5W let salaried employees post on blogs a gantze tog. I know you were trying to get in a dig on me but I own my own company.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Than that would explain how you are posting a gantze tog I guess. I guess you can add your company to that list you started.

[Archie Bunker]

It may not have dawned on you that there is a difference between the principal and salaried employees.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Right. The principal has time to fool around and waste time on blogs all day, while the employees have to at least pretend to work. Sounds like an intense work environment over at your place.

Well, being flesh and blood of the principal out here, I guess abit of that leeway rubbed off, and I'm allowed to waste some time on here like you.

[Archie Bunker]

Why are you maligning my employees? You don't know the first thing about them and their work ethic. As it happens, they don't even know I'm here.

Exposing Agri's crimes against the public is a noble enough cause however that I could see myself or others paying employees to blog against them.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Well then your precious time is being well-spent. Maybe you should inform your employees how you are spending your time - I am sure they will be proud of such a noble boss. Maybe they would offer to join the holy crusade and you could actually pay them to blog so nobly.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Getzel and Archie: Behave, boys! Play nice.

[Archie Bunker]

"they would offer to join the holy crusade"

Hey, that's one metaphor that Lubinsky hasn't used yet to smear Rubashkin critics as anti-Semites.

[Archie Bunker]

Yochanan, thank you for intervening. I was afraid Getzel would threaten me next that his daddy is stronger than my daddy!

[steve]

Rubashkin is an innovator when it comes to paying people to blog.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie: I don't know if he's bigger, but I'm sure he's richer.

Steve; Nice work if you can get it.

Disclosure: I am a school teacher and am on vacation. Next week I'll be upstate, away from computers, so the song parodies will have to wait (unless Archie fills in).

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Archie, I wasn't going there, but if you ever feel brave enough to come out from behind that pseudonym we can have that discussion if you'd like.

If you do start paying people, tell Shmarya... he would probably qualify and it would only be right.

[Archie Bunker]

Actually, I wouldn't choose Shmarya because he is trying to use this as a device to smear all of orthodox Judaism.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Oh, OK. Good point. That wouldn't meet your objective of smearing only Agri.

[Archie Bunker]

That would exposing Agri, not "smearing".

[Archie Bunker]

"if you ever feel brave enough to come out from behind that pseudonym we can have that discussion"

You need to flush that midas Esav out of your system. Resorting to violence is not the derech Hatorah.

[Archie Bunker]

Should have read: That would BE exposing Agri

[Y. Aharon]

The mesorah to permit that animal is also questionable. the formidable talmid chochom Rav J. David Bleich has written in a halacha journal that Belsky is contradicting himself in being mattir it for the OU. - Archie Bunker

You, of course, are a maven on who is and isn't a "formidable talmid chacham" or is entitled to be called a rav. However, I do not wish to get into a discussion of rabbanim here. I would only point out that the torah gives the definitive simanim of a kosher mammal which the bison easily meets. Chazal give other criteria which the bison also meets. Those who believe that an animal requires a mesorah base themselves on Rav Danzig of the Chochmas Adam. Rav Belsky is permitted to contest that view, and we are permitted to rely on those who permit it. Incidentally, the consumption of bison is inherently more easily justified than that of another new world animal, the turkey.

Y. Aharon

[Shmarya]

I'm a bit behind on reading the comments, but I noticed Y. Aharon returned.

Nice to have you back.

Archie, I have to tell you that Y. Aharon seems to be correct on this one.

[Archie Bunker]

I don't disagree with Y. Aharon here. My point was, as Rav Bleich pointed out, that Belsky has contradicted himself on this matter. I also asked in jest if this is another area where Rubashkin goes lechumrah.

[Archie Bunker]

The OU also may be contradicting themselves in this matter since they do not allow locusts. Locusts are at least part of the Sefardi tradition and they meet all the recognizable criteria.

[Archie Bunker]

As far as turkey, there is a machlokes among those who forbid it as to what the reason is.

Y. Aharon is correct according to the reasoning of the Shaloh Hakadosh, but in the view of Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, there would be no difference between turkey and bison.

[Shmarya]

Let's try this: Even though you clearly dislike Rabbi Belsky, call him "Rabbi Belsky" or "Rav Belsky."

That would be fair. You could also write that you think he's a fraud, if you want.

Fair?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

++Resorting to violence is not the derech Hatorah.++

I did not suggest resorting to violence, but while we are no the topic of Derech HaTorah, I'm pretty sure paying people to spread unsubstantiated rumors isn't Derech HaTorah.

[Archie Bunker]

Y. Aharon seems to be taken aback that I do not assign a title to Belsky. That is due to:

A. his nefarious track record of terrorizing child molestation victims and those who attempt to assist them in order to protect the criminals

B. his involvement in other shady dealings for profit such as shaking down parties in dinei Torah and engineering the most infamous and fake bittul kiddushin in 2000 years.

C. his pattern of creating highly questionable heterim since being employed by the OU

[Shmarya]

Getzel–

I'm pretty sure paying people to spread unsubstantiated rumors isn't Derech HaTorah.

True. Neither is paying people to impersonate others, or to lie, or to make it seem as if antisemites or jealous competitors are the cause of Agriprocessors' problems.

Before you respond, remember your paid spokesperson, Ronn Torosian, lied about me. He did not even know who I was, but he made up a false story about me.

He also threatened people – including what could easily be understood as threatening violence – in your name.

And your family and your company have never apologized for any of it.

[Archie Bunker]

"He also threatened people – including what could easily be understood as threatening violence – in your name."

Which Agri critics did Torrossian threaten?

[Archie Bunker]

I see UOJ & friends have been sleuthing around and discovered dozens of lawsuits & legal actions against Rubashkin on the Iowa State website.

http://www.iowacourts.state.ia.us/ESAWebApp/TrialSimpFrame

Does Getzel care to explain why he was personally sued by the town of Postville in case #01031POST006465?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya,
5W was paid to represent Agri. They were not paid, nor were they asked to impersonate or threaten. They are directly responsible for their own actions. That is Derech HaTorah.

And Archie, keep on sleuthing. I think it was an unpaid ticket or something like that.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

nor were they asked,*

[Shmarya]

5W was paid to represent Agri. They were not paid, nor were they asked to impersonate or threaten. They are directly responsible for their own actions. That is Derech HaTorah.

No, Getzel.

Unless your company and family made public protestations against 5WPR's conduct, you own it – it is halakhicly your conduct as well as 5WPR's.

Your family and your company still refuse to apologize.

And 5WPR is still working for Agriprocessors.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

And your source for that in Halacha is...?

[steve]

Shliach Adam K'moto

[Yochanan Lavie]

Getzel: I accepted (and still accept) your personal apology (I would italicize that for emphasis if I knew how). Your family's firm has still not apologized, and is still using 5Wankers. So your family is still associated with illustrious 5W clients such as "Girls Gone Wild" in addition to lying and sockpuppeting.

At any rate, Agri should demand their money back from 5Wankers. You are doing a much better job of publicity (officially or not) than those overpaid amateurs ever did.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Aha, so then you are certainly aware of the clause that says that that is limited to what the Mishalayach requested. How does that support your argument, in light of the fact that Agri did not authorize or condone those actions?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Yochanan: Thank you for the compliment. Simple HTML formatting here.
A sandbox for italics, bold etc. here.

When you use those tags in a comments section like this you just use only the specific tags, without the html or body tags.

Make sure to always use opening and closing tags.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Your welcome, and thnak you for the info. But please address my main concern- why is your family firm still using those unethical clowns at 5Wankers?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

how does that support Shmarya's argument*

(I didn't realize it was steve responding)

[steve]

When you hire someone to do a job for you and you don't specify to him how you want it done, then you are responsible for the damage he causes. For example, if you hire a hit man and instruct him "I want you to take care of so and so for me", and then the hit man breaks so and so's two legs, you certainly are responsible.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel, stop the gamesmanship. Anyone who learned in yeshiva knows that there is also a sug of dinei shamayim.

You know that 5W is breaking halacha and the law of the land yet you did not terminate them. Just retaining them may alsi be in violation of the issur of mesayeye yadei ovrei aveirah.

For argument's sake, even if no halacha was violated in either dinei adam or kelapei shmaya, you have been touting around that the supposed new improved Agri is going to be big on mentchlichkeit.

What your flacks did is anything but mentchlich.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Steve: True. That's why it Agri publicly said that they did not authorize those actions of 5W.

Archie: No one at Agri defended 5W, nor have they publicized whether or not that business relationship had been terminated.

Anyone who learned in Yeshiva also knows that a Dayan is forbidden to rule on a matter without a full knowledge of the matter. What you are basing your smears on is anything but full and most of it is not even knowledge.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Yochanan: I do not know the status of 5W's business relationship with Agriprocessors, but I have not seen any activity on their part, no public statements or representation.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya has still not given a source for this comment:

"Unless your company and family made public protestations against 5WPR's conduct, you own it – it is halakhicly your conduct as well as 5WPR's."

[Shmarya]

Shmarya has still not given a source for this comment:

"Unless your company and family made public protestations against 5WPR's conduct, you own it – it is halakhicly your conduct as well as 5WPR's."

It's a halakha in Shulkhan Arukh. It was cited by the Rebbe (remember him) several times.

Look for talks where the Rebbe says a machoh must be made.

Essentially, when a public action is taken – especially of that action is taken by a shaliach, employee, business associate, family member, etc. – silence equals agreement with that action.

Add to that your family's repeated refusal to apologize for those actions.

Yochanan: I do not know the status of 5W's business relationship with Agriprocessors, but I have not seen any activity on their part, no public statements or representation.

Engelmayer was quoted as an Agriprocessors' spokesman yesterday in several media stories related to the child labor investigation.

I guess you "missed" those.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, you are grasping at straws. I asked you for a source. Book, page, paragraph. That's a source.

Agriprocessors was not silent. They publicly stated that they did not authorize those actions, and they do not condone those actions.

Englemayer was not quoted anywhere I saw. He was quoted as having been called and declining to comment, when clearly the company had a statement. If you have seen otherwise, please share a link.

[Shmarya]

I gave you the book. I also told you your own Rebbe cited it several times.

I suggest you go learn it.

Agriprocessors was not silent. They publicly stated that they did not authorize those actions, and they do not condone those actions.

But Agriprocessors did NOT apologize for those actions.

More on Engelmayer in a minute.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel, what about chilul Hashem on the part of your 5W flacks? Do you really think there is no problem associating with such immoral people? Take a look at Sefer Torah Temimah on the posuk of "kol oraiv lemeenayhoo" and see what he brings down beshaim Ben Sirah.

When Neturei Karta rubbed shoulders with the rotzchim in Teheran, you might argue that they violated no halacha. The Badatz and other batei din put those lowlives in cherem because of the chilul Hashem they created.

Did you ever ask your rebbe in yeshiva what the koyech of a sevoro is? The answer is that a logical sevoro has a din D'Oyreisseh and the logical assessment here is that there is something wrong with the Agri-5W association.

[Shmarya]

Two from 8/5, one from 7/28, all well after 5WPR was caught impersonating Rabbi Allen, etc:

http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=7&a=355109

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jfLzOuvRRF9AaRBh9AzaUKOs7v-QD92CCKP80

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jTl0sGF1ZmzCEhrgZdb5B4baaFxQD9274HPO0

And there are more I could cite, as well.

[Archie Bunker]

"a Dayan is forbidden to rule on a matter without a full knowledge of the matter."

It has been established beyond a doubt that Engelmayer was stupid enough to use his home computer to engage in criminal impersonation. Are you saying you need a dayan to rubberstamp an established fact?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

To back up a claim of Halacha, saying Shulchan Aruch is hardly giving a source. If you are referring to the Talmudic concept of Shtika K'Hoda'a, the statement that it was not authorized and not condoned makes it clear that there is no Hoda'a. Like I said, let's hear a source.

The fact that the AP calls him Agriprocessors spokesman means nothing. He declined to comment on a story that Agri has an official statement on. He is clearly not speaking for Agriprocessors.

[Shmarya]

To back up a claim of Halacha, saying Shulchan Aruch is hardly giving a source. If you are referring to the Talmudic concept of Shtika K'Hoda'a, the statement that it was not authorized and not condoned makes it clear that there is no Hoda'a. Like I said, let's hear a source.

Very childish, Getzel. Perhaps you could ask one of the dozens of rabbis in Postville. I'm sure one of them can pull out a SA for you and show you the exact page.

The fact that the AP calls him Agriprocessors spokesman means nothing. He declined to comment on a story that Agri has an official statement on. He is clearly not speaking for Agriprocessors.

But he did comment on 7/28, something you "forget" to mention.

I'd suggest you have Agriprocessors issue a statement clarifying its relationship to 5WPR explaining when it first retained 5W and when it severed its relationship with 5W.

Without that, like it or not, 5W and Agriprocessors are joined at the hip.