The Rubashkin Point Of View, Part 2

Posted below is a video of Getzel Rubashkin, a son of Sholom M. Rubashkin and a grandson of Aaron Rubashkin. Getzel discusses his family's view of the Immigration raid and its aftermath.

As you watch this…

…remember that the US Government seized almost 100 fraudulent IDs, some attached to workers' documents, some found stacked on a desk in the Agriprocessors' Human Services department; that Agriprocessors received the largest fines ever in the history of Iowa workplace safety enforcement; that cild laborers as young as 13 were arrested during that raid; that its owners have repeatedly violated Humane Slaughter law, EPA regulations, and OSHA regulations; that Agriprocessors received 500 warning letters from the Social Security Administration telling the company that employee social security numbers did not match living Americans; etc.

And then ask yourself what type of sociopath can stand up in front of thousands of people (through television, of course) and lie about all of it.

That is exactly the Rubashkin pattern. Aaron does it. Moshe does it. Sholom M. does it. Getzel does it.

These people are sociopaths who truly believe they have done no wrong, even when caught red handed. In their minds, they are never guilty, and it is the Other – the press, the police, the EPA, OSHA, PETA, etc., who are truly to blame.

Can sociopaths like this be trusted to produce kosher meat?

I would say no.

That the OU, Wiessmandal, UMK, and so many other kosher supervisors and Orthodox rabbis disagree is as much a comment on the devaluing of truth in Orthodoxy as it is about the character of those rabbis.

Comments

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/07/21/news/01raid21.txt

Rabbi Shalom Gurkov, a Hasidic Jew like the owners of Agriprocessors, standing on the main street in Postville in his long beard and solemn dress, vigorously disputing the accusations of crimes, inhumane treatment and sexual harassment that have been made by former workers.

Abe Bistritzky, a friend of the Rubashkin family, agreed to talk to the Star Tribune on behalf of the company, which has declined to comment since the raids. He said the illegal workers used fake documents and the company followed the law in verifying paperwork. Most of the workers were happy to have the jobs and were paid and treated fairly, he added.

The Rubashkins “took a town that had balls of hay rolling in it and they built up a community of approximately 120 Jewish families,” Bistritzky said. “They built a yeshiva, a Jewish school for kids,” gave money to the city, to charity and recently sent food to flood victims.

“The Rubashkin family is charitable. They’re not prejudiced; they’ll hire any kind of person, anyone who will walk through the door,” Bistritzky said. “What happened was when (Jews) came to town, they looked at us like we’re Martians. ... They didn’t understand the black coats, the white shirts, the beards, the black hats, and they needed to learn about us.“

The situation at Agriprocessors reveals “a lack of respect of human dignity of people other than you,” Ouderkirk said. “Politicians who should have been leading the way did nothing.”

Bistritzky dismisses most of the worst accusations as fabrications.

“I can’t vouch for what happened over 18 years,” Bistritzky said. “But maybe (the Rubashkins) should have put a little bit more emphasis to reacting maybe to the town. Maybe they had a lack of communication with people.”

[Archie Bunker]

CBS has a video interview with Chaim Abrahams. What kind of foreign accent is that or is he one of those American-born fools that thinks it's cool to manufacture his own haymish-sounding accent?

[Shmarya]

I posted it yesterday.

He's Israeli, I think.

[Plink Plink Plunk]

What happened was when (Jews) came to town, they looked at us like we’re Martians. ... They didn’t understand the black coats, the white shirts, the beards, the black hats, and they needed to learn about us.

Most JEWS don't understand the dressing-up-like-Poles/Lithuanians fetish either.

[Archie Bunker]

ANother PR coup for Agri. WHy make an Israeli with a heavy accent and imperfect English their face to the world?

[Archie Bunker]

How absurd. Are they trying to blame Empire or Alle?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gPTbcw3PrMnPkSg3Pd2IYYetk-MwD926ONUG0

Getzel Rubashkin, an Agriprocessors employee and a member of the family that owns it, said it was unfair to blame his family and Agriprocessors for the raid and theorized that unspecified competitors and enemies of the plant were behind the enforcement action.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080727/NEWS/807270337/1001

Union organizer Jerry Messer said the Agriprocessors plant has the worst working conditions he has ever seen. Messer's union, the United Food and Commercial Workers, has been trying to organize the plant. He called for criminal charges against members of the Rubashkin family, who own the company.

When asked for a response, Menachem Lubinsky, a consultant representing Agriprocessors, said Messer should not be calling for such charges. "It's not his call. In this country, those things are based on evidence."

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331103683&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is really too much. Shlomo Riskin is now going out on a limb in this letter to the Jerusalem Post saying that Rubashkin is now acting in the manner of kiddush Hashem.

[Archie Bunker]

Agence France Presse report:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9I_ty9Pc3E6nBPTJC9cbtQtfyqg

Postville police said the town's relatively quiet evenings are a thing of the past. Now, they regularly respond to calls of public intoxication and drunken brawls on Friday nights.

[Yochanan Lavie]

What kind of foreign accent is that or is he one of those American-born fools that thinks it's cool to manufacture his own haymish-sounding accent?

Archie, like me I'm sure you have met many American born chassidim who can barely speak English and have a Yiddish accent. (Not all, but it's appalling to me that many are like that).

I am losing more and more respect for the Modern Orthodox Rabbinate thanks to Rubbishcan. Does Stevie Riskin say this because he is willfully naive enough to believe it? Or is he nervously looking over his right shoulder, wanting approval from the "real" Orthodox? Instead of being fitted for Cohanim garments, Stevie should be fitted for a straight-jacket.

[John K. Diamond]

The question we might want to start asking ourselves is: "What happens if the Rubashkins are not arrested?"

[Archie Bunker]

Try not to laugh

http://www.agriprocessor.com/agriprocessors_jewish_values/agriprocessors_code_of_conduct.php

Agriprocessors, Inc. Code of Conduct

[Archie Bunker]

Is this playing hard to get or something?

http://www.agriprocessor.com/agriprocessors_opportunities/Workforce_Recruitment_and_Composition.php

On days when Agriprocessors interviews new potential employees, applicants are lined up and waiting to fill the available positions.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Now, they regularly respond to calls of public intoxication and drunken brawls on Friday nights.

Sounds like Rutgers Chabad House. Maybe it's the Fabringens.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The quality of your analysis never ceases to amaze. If I may remind you, "The seal of G-d is truth." I spoke nothing but the truth - and you? Evidently you choose to be among those misrepresenting and distorting.

[John K. Diamond]

I've looked at both of these, Archie, and it was difficult not to laugh.

But I'll just have to have two libations of George Dickel Bourbon (Oh, sorry: Sour Mash Tennessee Whisky) when I go home today.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel, vos hert zich?

America is a medinah shel chesed and as such does not go around planting false evidence to frame people. How do you deny all evidence gathered by Federal agents? The evidence sounds solid enough that even Jim Martin and fetter Milton can't get you off the hook this time.

And what about mashgichim who have confided to Rabbi Yudel Shain about all the kashrus violations?

Learn the posuk "midvar sheker tirchok" before you open up your pisk.

[Archie Bunker]

Or maybe "Getzel" is Engelmayer, who actually has permission for once to impersonate somebody.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

A) No one claimed false evidence was planted. As a matter of fact,
B) No one has presented any evidence at all at this point. Look up the word "evidence" before you open up your pisk, even in pseudo-Yiddish.

Have you ever heard the term "straw-man argument?"

PS It is very rude to imply that I am lying about my identity, as if I am somehow incapable of speaking my mind. But have no fear - I am sure Shmarya is tracing IP addresses as we speak. You'll hear about it if I'm Engelmayer.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Lies of a Clown (apologies to Smokey Robinson)

Now if there's a smile on my face
It's only there trying to fool the goyim
But when it comes down to fooling Jews
Now Motek that's quite a different ploy, man
But don't let my "honest" expression
Give you the wrong impression
Really I'm bad, oh I'm badder than bad
I'm caught and I'm in trouble bad
Like in Clown Heights, I pretend to be glad

Now there's some bad things at Rubbishcan
But ain't too much sadder than
The lies of a clown, when the press is around
Uh hum, oh yeah bubbeleh

Now if I appear to be carefree
It's only to camouflage exploitation
And motek to shield my crimes I try
To cover this guilt with a show of elation
But don't let 5W convince you
That I've been honest since U.S.
Decided to prosecute,
I need to insulate
My crimes against underage workers
But for "Others" I put on tearjerkers, ooh yeah

{repeat CHORUS}

Just like Meyer Lansky did
I try to keep my surface Yid
Smiling in the public's face
But in my lonely plant I disgrace
The laws of the Torah
When there's no open gemorra, oh yeah, bubbeleh

Now if there's a Postville disgrace
Don't let my "glatt" expression
Make you think we are mentschen
Don't let this smile I wear
Make you think that I really care
When really they're goyim…
I’m gonna annoy 'em……

[Archie Bunker]

Uh huh, so fake green cards in the Agri HR office are "false rumors"?

What about recordings that come from secret wires planted on Federal informants?

You also do not address the kashrus issues like mashgichim confiding to outside rabbonim and why Khal Adas Yeshurun pulled out.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I guess you have *not* heard of the term "straw-man argument." To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.

You asked me if I deny the "evidence" and I pointed out that there was no evidence. The two pieces of information you are challenging with tell me you did not take my advice to look up the definition of "evidence."

I have not heard any of the recordings, and neither have you. The inaccuracies in the federal affidavit are well documented and it does not amount to evidence.

I still don't understand the "fake documents in the HR department" argument. Once it has been established that workers submitted false papers that is exactly where I would expect to find them. That is where employee submitted documents are processed, presumably.

I failed to address KAJ because you failed to bring it up. If memory serves, they clearly stated that their leaving was not because of Kashrus violations.

I failed to address unnamed mashgichim confiding in Yudel Shain because, unlike many on this blog, I have a habit of not commenting on matters with which I am not familiar. I trust the Koshrus certifying agencies are doing their job.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie wrote: Shlomo Riskin is now going out on a limb in this letter to the Jerusalem Post saying that Rubashkin is now acting in the manner of kiddush Hashem.

Stevie Riskin just came out with his own version of Stevie Wonder's "Superstitious"

Shlomo's superstitious, writing's in the Post
Sholmo's superstitious, Rubbishcan bout' to boast
Uri L'Tzedek, broke the boycott fast
Many years of bad practices, but now it's in the past

When you believe in things that you don't understand
Then we suffer
Superstition ain't the torah way

Rubbishcan's atrocious, wash their guilty hands
Exonerate their problems, protect the Rubbishclan
Keep us in a daydream, keep lies goin' strong
You don't wanna save us, sad is our song

When you believe in lies that Shmuley don't understand
Then we suffer
Supposition ain't the way, oy vey

Shlomo's superstitious, nothin' more to say
Shlomo's superstitious, the DA's on his way
5WPR, broke the ethics rules
Many years of bad press, don't treat us like we're fools

When you believe in things that we cannot abide
Then your rep suffers
Supposition ain't the way, no, no, no

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, my question is--at a certain point a family that has adopted essentially illegal means to sustain a licit business (I take a 55-75% illegal workforce as defacto evidence of a knowing criminal hiring practices wherever along the 0--no evidence to 10--we have the videotapes and the ID counterfeiting presses spectrum, other evidence falls) comes across opportunities that go the other way, exploiting the business to leverage criminal activities unrelated to that business. Typically Italian families started illegal, formed a supporting infrastructure of legit enterprises and then went back and forth--but those delis and casinos and restaurants and trash haulers and pavers were going concerns even as they were skimmed or "busted out" or violated health and safety codes etc.;

so, Getzel, you there yet? Any temptations to commercial shatnez?

[Yochanan Lavie]

This just in:

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/2008072820080728postvillehearing.html

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/109669.html

Whatever one thinks of immigration policy, it is the law of the land.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, btw, if memory servs those fake documents were in the nature of "blanks" as in, oh, let's say, ID's for non-Hispanic workers in the stages of being reprepped and recirculated--that is the seized false IDs didn't come from the workers who were seized with the altered versions--but this is a minor point, no business ends up with an illegal workforce because it was fooled by wiley wascally amigos from south of the border

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul,
A British author known as Rebbeca West once said "There is no such thing as conversation. It is an illusion. There are intersecting monologues, that is all"

It is an apt epigraph for this blog.

When you are willing to try out that strange thing known as dialogue, which requires an openness or interest in another's knowledge or perspective, let me know.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, you are a well-read fellow but it doesn't get you beyond the obvious point: multiple government charges against a succession of Rubashkin enteriprises and a workforce of undocumented workers--I would be interested in any scenario from anywone as to how any labor management with even minimal commitment to observing this country's immigration laws ends up with a workforce that is minimally half undocumented, misdocumented, and non-English speaking--to the degree that a single raid halves the workforce. What is there to dialogue about?

I work in the real world--I know how documents are checked or not checked. I appreciate articulate PR when I come across it. But I also appreciate businesses not wantonly dumping toxic waste in factory shells and then abandoning them. We may have been born yesterday but it was in the morning.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I did not read part 1 of this post and now that I have I can see that Archie is in good company. Shmarya chose to describe me as the company spokesperson even though I clearly indicated that I was not.

Paul, I did not see a reference to blank cards.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, the workforce, the EPA charges, etc. speak for themselves. You need to dialogue with the realities not your critics.

[John K. Diamond]

You seem to be a very intelligent person, Getzel, and very well read, etc.

That's nice.

But we need you to explain to us why Chief Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen and former Chief Rabbi David Rosen, who both viewed the PETA videos in 2004, gave written statements that the shechita at Agri, as captured in those videos, was invalid.

Please don't respond implying that the videos were doctored or that these Rabbis were lying.

That would not be becoming from someone as well read and cultured as you appear to be.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, ps if memory serves the feds found a cache of cards before they were assigned to Hispanic workers. But, again, the workforce speaks for itself. "Everyone does it" is not enough cover here.

[Archie Bunker]

Part of what Getzel is trying to do is uphold the strictest literal interpretation of guilt. According to this measure, OJ Simpson is not guilty because he was "acquitted". Surely, Getzel never opined that OJ was anything but "innocent".

Again, when you are open to the possibility that there may be something to discuss, let me know. Until then we are firmly in the realm of intersecting monologues.

I also work in the real world. It is a world in which conjecture is of limited value to those interested in the facts and the purpose of investigation is not only to satisfy legal technicalities but to establish the facts.

As the Kuzari and countless defenders of our faith have articulately stated, sheer volume is not a replacement for quality, especially not the quality we call truth.

On the other hand, such luminaries as Stalin advocated repetition as a substitute for facts, so the position is not without its defenders.

I am not saying what those facts are, so spare me the straw army, folks. The facts will be established with time. Until then there is little concrete information on which to build gallows.

[Shmarya]

Getzel –

First of all, It's nice, even under these circumstances, to hear from you. You were always a nice kid. So was Meir Simcha, but he used to head butt everyone.

You wrote:

The quality of your analysis never ceases to amaze. If I may remind you, "The seal of G-d is truth." I spoke nothing but the truth - and you? Evidently you choose to be among those misrepresenting and distorting.

And then your wrote:

I still don't understand the "fake documents in the HR department" argument. Once it has been established that workers submitted false papers that is exactly where I would expect to find them. That is where employee submitted documents are processed, presumably.

The documents were blanks, waiting for names to be added in, and this is mentioned in the arrest warrants for your two supervisors arrested about three weeks ago.

You dismiss all negative reports as unproven, much in the way 5WPR and Lubinsky called PETA's charges unproven, even though the USDA found your family's business violated Humane Slaughter law.

But to agree your family is blameless, at the very least we all must believe the following:

1. Dozens of state and federal officials are lying.

2. Dozens of former Agri workers are lying.

3. Current Agri workers are lying,

4. State findings against Agriprocessors were trumped up.

5. Fedral findings against Agriprocessors wer trumped up.

6. Catholic clergy and laypeople are lying.

7. Every non-Orthodox rabbi who has visited Postville is lying.

8. Dozens of newspaper and other media reporters are lying.

This type of bizarre conspiracy theory may be believable inside Chabad or haredi communities but it doesn't fly in the outside world.

Try this for a change:

1. Tell the truth.

2. Treat your employees with respect and dignity and follow all state and federal laws. Do this in a completely transparent way.

That's not too much to ask from people who claim to be religious, now is it?

[Archie Bunker]

Perhaps Getzel only saw the 2nd letter that KAJ released to the public. There was an earlier letter written to his zaydie that clearly states Agriprocessors is being booted for kashrus violations. This letter was later leaked to Rabbi Shain.

It was pretty disgusting how Sholom Rubashkin & Lubinsky rushed out after the "official" letter was released to imply that they were giving the boot to KAJ when the opposite was true.

[Archie Bunker]

"I also work in the real world."

If the most dangerous & filthy slaughterhouse in the world is the "real world" then we are really in trouble.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel--I went back, and you are correct. There was not a reference to blanks and I did missstate the evidence of company cul[pability found at the HR office. The IDs were not being scrubbed and reassigned, they were being forged. What was directly implicative of knowing management policy would be the statements of the workers, the direct involvemen of vetted Agriprocessor line supervisors, and the "stacks" of forged IDs found separated from any applicable paper work (the inference: before handed out to workers by HR):

------

Postville, Ia. – Federal agents who raided the Agriprocessors meatpacking plant here in May found evidence that the company’s human-resources department helped provide false immigration documents to its workers, court papers say.

The agents said they found stacks of fraudulent resident-alien cards in the human-resources department. Most of the cards, also known as green cards, appeared to have been made by the same forger, the court papers say.

The green cards were discovered during the May 12 raid at Agriprocessors, in which 389 workers were arrested. Most of the workers were charged with using false identities to obtain jobs.

Prosecutors filed the court papers this month to support criminal charges against an Agriprocessors supervisor, Juan Guerrero-Espinoza, who oversaw the beef kill department. He and another supervisor were charged with aiding the use of fraudulent identity documents and encouraging aliens to reside illegally in the United States. Guerrero-Espinoza also faces one count of aiding and abetting identity theft.

The plant’s owners and top executives have not been charged in the case, but court documents indicate a federal grand jury continues to look into the matter.

Immigration agents said in court papers that several former plant workers who were in the United States illegally said Guerrero-Espinoza told them that if they gave him $200 to $220 and a photograph of themselves, he would provide them with resident-alien cards. The workers also told authorities that a human-resources employee, identified as “Subject A,” also was involved in procuring the false cards.

Agents searched the human-resources department and found dozens of forged resident-alien cards, court papers say. Some of them were attached to application paperwork, but others were in stacks.

Workers told investigators that the human-resources employee handed them their fraudulent immigration cards. Workers also told investigators that plant supervisors, including Guerrero-Espinoza, were in a rush to get immigration papers for workers because they feared the plant would be raided.

A spokesman for Agriprocessors said Saturday that the company is not commenting on any matters that are part of the federal investigation. He said that the company is cooperating with the investigation, and that it is working to comply with all regulations.

[Paul Freedman]

Archie,

?

I work in the real world where employment documents can be checked so that an employer can have a legal workforce in a safe and legal business environment--that part of the real world as opposed to the world of appearances presented by PR the world over--

filthy slaughterhouses are real in the real world and in the real world they don't happen accidentally but by policy

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul,
Charges do indeed speak for themselves. All they speak of are accusations, which by definition can be challenged and responded too.

If this blog is not the only thing on your reading list you will recognize that realities are commonly interpreted in different ways, placed in different contexts. Dialogue, as a human endeavor, will always be about those interpretations and context. As you seem to have been saying before, one cannot argue, or dialogue, with facts.

Again, I did not see a reference to blank cards.

Paul @ 12:04 and the following post by Archie: Please. I find straw-man arguments insulting. I know I sound repetitious but I'm working with what you give me.

As far as John Diamond is concerned, I am not a Rabbinical authority. The Kosher certifiers in this plant are. If you, or anyone else disagrees with them, your argument seems to be with them. I am not a spokesperson for this company but I do know that they comply with their certifiers even at great cost/loss.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya states something misleading about Chabad & Charedi circles. There are only sub-groups within those groups that believe the conspiracy crap from Rubashkin & Lubinsky.

There are many Chabad & Charedi rabbis who tell their followers not to eat Rubashkin for various reasons, be they kashrus, safety, etc.

I recently learned that a distinguished rabbi in the Bobover movement has joined their ranks.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya could be referring above to additional reports.

Gretzel, I don't see where you think you are going. The "sheer volume" here is not of conjecture or speculation but direct, tangible evidence of criminal behavior. This isn't just "where there's smoke there's fire", that ship left the dock a whiles back--the building is gutted, noxious barrels are leaking waste into the basement and the workforce is being perp-walked into the detention center. This is what, a huge misunderstanding, an accident, alien conspiracy?

Well, there are aliens.

I'm publishing a blog called failedsongwriter.com. I got some really cool scotty stories to share with the world. Launching soon.

[Paul Freedman]

Gretzel, not just accusations. There were arrests and deportations, no? Rubashkin management settled with the EPA and so confirmed their responsibility for pollution, etc. There are hiriing standards and practices routinely deployed by those who don't wish to exploit an undocumented work force to end up with a documented work force. The cross-correlation of reportage, accusations, worker statements, filmed practices, and, additionally, Federal accusations presents an extraordinary high barrier to challenge that general statements of epistemological certainty or open-mindedness fail.

[John K. Diamond]

[I am not a Rabbinical authority. The Kosher certifiers in this plant are. If you, or anyone else disagrees with them, your argument seems to be with them.]

Fascinating !!!!

Then the Kashrut authorites at Agri need to explain how "dead animals can walk" or "walking animals are dead."

[Paul Freedman]

Gretzel, expand the reading list as large as Borges' library, Pontiius Pilate and Wittgenstein won't help you out here.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul: Thank you for correcting your statement. That forged documents were submitted is not news.

Cards stacked in a pile is the reality. Your inference is interpretation. It will have its day in court, and until then anything you or I say about it is not evidence or implication.

Statements of workers also have requirements based upon which to establish the veracity and accuracy before they graduate to the status of fact. This system exists not to employ lawyers, but in recognition of the fact that the truth must be ascertained.

When discussions like this take place, and the point is made that much of this is misrepresentation, allegations and rumors, the impression is that the company claims to be perfect. This impression is then spread and ridiculed. Did I mention the straw man argument?

This is a position I have never seen nor heard from the company itself. As a matter of fact, when issues arise the company addresses them. The much-publicized recent OSHA inspection, which resulted in reduced fines is an example of this. Of course, this is then portrayed as the government in bed with the company, when in fact this is common practice at OSHA. They suggest maximal fines and then reduce those fines based on cooperation and response. This has been articulated by OSHA themselves.

And finally, filthy and dangerous slaughterhouses result not from policy, Paul, but from nature. Slaughter is filthy and dangerous work.

[Shmarya]

Cards stacked in a pile is the reality. Your inference is interpretation. It will have its day in court, and until then anything you or I say about it is not evidence or implication.

BLANK cards waiting for names, Getzel. ILLEGAL cards. All in a stack in your HR office.

As fro the rest of what you write, it's BS.

You have perhaps the worst safety record in Iowa. You CHARGE employees for necessary safety equipment.

What is your job with Agriprocessors, Getzel?

[steve]

Inference? Articulated? Since when did Chabad institute vocabulary and grammar as part of their curriculum? I'm impressed.

[Archie Bunker]

Is Getzel auditioning for a spot at 5W or Lubicom?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya is not referring to other reports. I was never a spokesperson for the company. A straw man is a straw man.

Paul, I understand from your comments that in your mind the requirements of the legal system are simply bureaucratic technicalities. I beg to differ. To my mind, their purpose is to objectively determine the facts, context and responsibility, something which is otherwise impossible.

You join a proud group of people who believe in trial by media.

Although sometimes these monologues do appear to be actual conversation and many of you subscribe to the simplistic "if it walks like a duck" philosophy, I would still submit that Shmarya replace his tagline with the Rebecca West quote. It used to be "Truth is the seal of G-d" or something like that. He improved the accuracy by switching to the current tagline and I thing that quote would be a further improvement.

@John: I don't think they are hiding their contact information. Feel free to contact them and report back.

@Shmarya: I didn't notice your comment before. Again. Straw Man. He must be the mascot around here. Your laundry list of conspiracies was never articulated by myself or my family.

Saying something is inaccurate or misrepresentative or out of context does not require one to be lying. The inaccuracies in the affidavit included identifying a non-production area as a production area when it is in fact nowhere near the production area, and is in fact across the train tracks. This was followed by the informant describing conditions at this non-existent location.

Was the affiant lying? The word here is misinformed. Yet you will build a case on that information before it is vetted in a court of law.

I did not see the warrant, but again, until information is vetted in a court of law it is simply not established truth.

His job is too surf the net between naps on his mom's couch in the basement. He also does freelance advertising on the side. It's sad cuz he always wanted to be a songwriter.

[John K. Diamond]

But if he can bring authoritative proof that "dead animals can walk" or "walking animals are dead", we are all in real trouble and a dead person is posting this now.

[John K. Diamond]

[@John: I don't think they are hiding their contact information. Feel free to contact them and report back.]

The burden of proof is totally is on them.

Have the Agri Kashrut experts post here proving that: "dead animals can walk" or "walking animals are dead."

Archie: Please leave your unintelligent comments at the door. I'm sure you can muster up something that adds to our little intersecting monologues here.

Steve: I am going to take that as an honest compliment and not an expression of ignorant prejudice. Thank you. Sorry, its hard to tell which one it is in this environment..

Shmarya: I work here. Sadly, not in the PR department. The fact remains, whether you like it or not, that this company is a company that is committed to doing the right thing. Of course issues, oversights and mistakes happened but they are rectified when they are discovered.

I do not comment on matters I am not familiar with, such as the safety record, but I do know that you are misrepresenting it. I would be interested in seeing an honest study of the industry and seeing where Agriprocessors' record places it. If I find any facts on this issue I will share them with you.

As far as the cards go, as I said, until the matter is properly vetted the facts, context, responsibility etc. is unknown. Which of course makes it fair game to conjecture in your eyes.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

John: The burden of proof rests in this case with the one requiring proof. I trust the Rabbis that certify this plant. The fact that they gave and continue to give their certification tells me, and you, their position.

If you want to know what the basis of that position is, ask them.

[Shmarya]

@Shmarya: I didn't notice your comment before. Again. Straw Man. He must be the mascot around here. Your laundry list of conspiracies was never articulated by myself or my family.

Process, Gertzel.

In order to believe your family is innocents, we must believe all these to be true:

1. Dozens of state and federal officials are lying.

2. Dozens of former Agri workers are lying.

3. Current Agri workers are lying,

4. State findings against Agriprocessors were trumped up.

5. Fedral findings against Agriprocessors wer trumped up.

6. Catholic clergy and laypeople are lying.

7. Every non-Orthodox rabbi who has visited Postville is lying.

8. Dozens of newspaper and other media reporters are lying.

As for this:

I did not see the warrant, but again, until information is vetted in a court of law it is simply not established truth.

What type of insanity is this?

What would make it false, Getzel? Lying police, ICE and FBI agents?

Past that, what is your job description for Agriprocessors? What do you do?

[John K. Diamond]

The claim that "dead animals can walk" or "walking animals are dead", was made by your certifiers back in 2004, by their statements that the meat from the animals in the PETA videos was Kosher.

They are the ones, again, who need to prove this to be true.

[Shmarya]

I do not comment on matters I am not familiar with, such as the safety record, but I do know that you are misrepresenting it. I would be interested in seeing an honest study of the industry and seeing where Agriprocessors' record places it. If I find any facts on this issue I will share them with you.

You "know" I'm misrepresenting yet you have no facts and are "not familiar" with the issues.

Now that speaks well of you – not.

As far as the cards go, as I said, until the matter is properly vetted the facts, context, responsibility etc. is unknown. Which of course makes it fair game to conjecture in your eyes.

No, Getzel. They were in your HR, blank and ready to be used.

Whose fault is that? Your father's? Your grandfather's? The HR manager?

Time will tell.

But fault – and guilt, and jail time – will be assigned to Agriprocessors.

[steve]

Getzel,

The basis is trust, with Rabbi Weissmandl and the OU still trusting you and your family, while myself and many other Jews, don't. You trust the "rabbis that certify the plant" and they claim that they trust you. However, we as well as many in the Jewish community, don't. These "rabbis" are not impartial since they depend on your company for their livelihood.

I know that you care about winning back our trust, otherwise you wouldn't be here (if you are who you claim to be). Why don't you implement a foolproof system with professionals that will supervise how each and every piece of meat gets labeled and shipped? Why don't you allow unannounced visits by outside kashrus agencies and mashgichim? Why don't you have strict control over the labels so that not every truck driver and storeowner has access to them? Why don't you stop abusing your workers, allow them to unionize and start paying them according to law? Instead of hiding behind old cliches like "innocent until proven guilty", stand up and admit the mistakes of the past and state unequivocally that there will be full transparency at Agriprocessors from now on. As you can see, we are not falling for all the charades that you've been putting up since the ICE raid. We didn't fall for the Jim Martin charade, we didn't fall for the 5WPR charade, we didn't fall for the RCA/Lubinsky charade, and we certainly are not falling for your posts here today. I know it must be difficult for you with several family members facing prison sentences. I hope for your sake that you won't be included in any indictments. Getzel, if you really care about your customers and about making a kiddush hashem rather than the chillul hashem that has been taking place on a daily basis, then start working on those changes that I have suggested. There are certain things in this world that are more important than money.

[Archie Bunker]

"I would be interested in seeing an honest study of the industry and seeing where Agriprocessors' record places it."

Like what they did at the Senate hearings before Pesach and found Rubashkin to be the worst of the worst. Lowest 15% in Salmonella incidence, no plan to prevent mad cow (besides putting isolated animals back in production after being prohibited by USDA agents), all around disgusting filthy conditions, etc.

If Sholom Rubashkin would have at least cooperated somewhat, several senators would not have complained to the Agriculture Secretary which prompted the raid.

Not to mention that a Federal inspector caught a cow on the "kosher" side being disabled with a bolt stun gun BEFORE shechita which is treif even according to Belsky and the other "heter" specialists at the OU.

[Archie Bunker]

Make that HIGHEST 15% in Salmonella incidence

[Shmarya]

Not to mention that a Federal inspector caught a cow on the "kosher" side being disabled with a bolt stun gun BEFORE shechita which is treif even according to Belsky and the other "heter" specialists at the OU.

Archie –

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Archie Bunker]

Why is Agri in violation of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's tzavoah to R' Aron Rubashkin regarding the Chabad minhag of having a mashgiach temidi on all parts of the operation?

Why is Agri violating the takonna for America signed by all the gedolei rabbonim in 1937 not to have kosher & treif in the same gesheft, that was reiterated by R' Moishe Feinstein in 1955?

[Jason]

Getzel, first of all, I'm glad you're here to have a dialog with us, I only wish that someone who was authorized to speak on the company's behalf would do so, as it would take away the opportunity for you to make your statements, but at the same time claim, when asked tough questions, that you are not a representative/spokesman for the company. Nevertheless, this is the first chance I have had to ask questions of someone with inside knowledge of what is going on at the plant and it is appreciated, even if still lacking.

With all due respect, we are not required to wait for the results of a federal trial before indicting the company in the court of public opinion. The issue of whether there will be legal culpability for company officials or members of your family is different than the issue of whether the kashrut of the meat coming out of AgriProcessors plants is suspect. You say you trust that the certifying agencies are doing their job, but many here do not. Given (i) what I'm sure you will agree is the importance of kosher food to torah observant Jews, (ii) that the whole idea of outsourcing our food production to others based on the certification of Rabbis we don't know is based on trust, and (iii) that members of your family's history of criminal activity doesn't exactly engender the idea of "trust" in may people, please tell us if you can why we should trust the kashrut of your company or any statements you or your family members/representatives say about any of these issues. And whether, regardless of the outcome of any criminal investigation, your family would be willing to try and earn the trust of the community by agreeing to measures that would provide more openness to the company's processes, such as how much money the company pays to the OU; what other rabbis/community leaders are on the company's payroll; allowing members of the community outside the OU/RCA/Weissmandl to do site visits, etc. I'm sure we could all come up with other ideas of things that would bring us greater comfort.

[Archie Bunker]

I read 100s of pages of reports on the USDA website, and as linked on Yudel's and UOJ's blogs, one of those reports notes a Federal inspector caught a bolt stun gun in use on the "kosher" side BEFORE shechita. The bolt crushes the skull and enters the brain to disable the animal which is a classic treifa any way Rubashkin slices or dices it. Belsky gave Rubashkin a "heter" to use guns after shechita which EVERY OTHER posek in history and present-day prohibits but no one allows the gun BEFORE shechita.

[Jason]

Apologies for repeating much of what steve wrote; I was writing my post before I saw his. Well said Steve.

[Carol Ann Varley]

I'm confused. If kashrut is about ethical and humane treatment of God's creatures (animal and human) how does Agriprocessors fit with this paradigm?

In other words, is kosher-lite a new standard?

[steve]

Likewise, well said Jason. I doubt that this guy quoting Rebecca West is a Rubashkin. He must be the new 5W sockpuppet that's using an outside computer. It doesn't matter. The Rubashkin/Torrosian/Lubinsky/Lewin team has yet to come up with a new argument since this all began. YL should repost his list so that they can choose from the menu.

[Archie Bunker]

Kosher lite seems to be the standard at Hebrew National which is better than the non-kosher at Rubashkin.

[Archie Bunker]

Speaking of Meir Simcha Rubashkin, mazal tov on his recent chassunah. Is he out on shlichus somewhere or is he already working at Agri?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, I answered your question the first time. You pretend the only two options are believing someone or accusing him of lying. That is a straw man setup. I can state that someone is misinformed, was misled, was taken out of context etc etc. All of these things do not require the suspension of disbelief you claim is necessary to establish that the company was not behind a specific action.

You also conveniently ignore the fact that there are many discrepancies and inaccuracies in the affidavit, among other documents and statements you build on.

I am not familiar with the industry standards and with every incident in the plant so I can not share a fully informed position. However, I *do* know that you are misrepresenting the company record as being poor or below industry standard because I have information that you do not, which indicates that outside companies think highly of our safety record.

You can attempt to discredit that, or you can share objective information that bears out your portrayal - why am I not surprised that you chose the former? Possibly because I don't believe your position was taken based on objective information.

Time will indeed tell. Yet from you, who have already formed an opinion and simply interpret information to support it, that phrase seems hollow.

Steve: Trust is indeed the crux of the issue to the Kosher consumer. The fact that Rabbinical certifiers are paid is indeed a weak link in the entire Kosher industry and I understand that throughout the Kosher industry measures are taken to eliminate as much as possible any benefit or pressure that might influence the certifiers. This is hardly an Agriprocessors-specific issue.

Your list of suggestions suggests that you have accepted a number of things as fact. Abuse of workers is not an accepted practice. It has not been and will never be. Any incidents are addressed appropriately as they arise. The workers were allowed to unionize and they voted not to.

As far as your Kashrus suggestions, again, I am not an expert nor have I been privy to discussion on these particular issues. There may be areas where improvements can be made and I'm sure the company is pursuing improvement in those areas, subject to the guidance of their certifying agencies.

The fact remains that in issues of trust, the decision remains with the consumer. You are welcome to not "fall for" my comments here. I am not delusional. The quote from Rebecca West is echoing in my head as I write this. I know that it is highly unlikely that there is anyone actually listening.

[steve]

The fact remains that in issues of trust, the decision remains with the consumer.

Exactly. And as long as Rubashkin continues to betray that trust, and does nothing except play a game of charades, there is no reason for any Jew, or any human for that matter, to purchase their products. Good luck on your sockpuppeting career, "Getzel".

[Archie Bunker]

Maybe Getzel should familiarize himself with all the issues he says he is uninformed on before coming here to argue.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, I answered your question the first time. You pretend the only two options are believing someone or accusing him of lying. That is a straw man setup. I can state that someone is misinformed, was misled, was taken out of context etc etc. All of these things do not require the suspension of disbelief you claim is necessary to establish that the company was not behind a specific action.

Please.

You have multiple accusers Getzel, many who do not know each other and some o=who are separated by years as well as by distance.

You have hard evidence.

You have numerous third party confirmations.

Add to that your family's long history with law, code and standards enforcement.

Yet you want us to believe all these people, agencies and courts are mistaken or ill informed.

No one should or needs to view your father or grandfather as innocent.

Will they do jail time? Time will tell.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel sounds a lot like Dr. Neuhoff, otherwise known as the Bungalow Putz, who tried to defend the abusers of Ocean Parkway with much hairsplitting.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

My familiarity with the issues is light-years ahead of yours, Archie, and your lack of familiarity has not stopped you or others like you from sharing their uninformed positions. Your ignorant assertions only go unchallenged because you are preaching to the choir.

Steve: Your assertion that I am "sockpuppeting" based on my quoting Rebecca West is quite the bigoted position. I guess no one who is religious could possibly be intelligent or informed. Supersleuth Shmarya will surely inform you that the IP address is on the level.

Jason: After welcoming the opportunity to ask a question, you asked one that is rhetorical. "Why should we trust you?" It seems that Agriprocessors has forever lost your trust. Your suggestions revolve around inserting alternative people in the positions of trust.

I hope that you have made up your mind based on something more than what you have read in the papers, but it is ultimately your decision. I don't think there is anything I can add.

I'm sure the company will incorporate some of the ideas and suggestions for improvement that have come out of this mess, but I am also sure that some of them are not realistic in practice and cannot be adopted. For example, the reason KAJ left was because of control issues, having two certifying agencies over one plant. There are real world issues that have nothing to do with Kashrus or compliance that preclude some theoretically beautiful ideas.

Incidentally, to my knowledge the certifying agencies do not rely on the management to cover any of their areas of responsibility.

[Archie Bunker]

"My familiarity with the issues is light-years ahead of yours"

OK, Captain Kirk, so how do you respond to the many kashrus-related concerns I raise?

[Archie Bunker]

"the reason KAJ left was because of control issues, having two certifying agencies over one plant"

That was ONLY ONE of the reasons as the secret letter to R' Aron Rubashkin affirms.

[Archie Bunker]

"the certifying agencies do not rely on the management to cover any of their areas of responsibility"

Yeah, the OU only allows complete interference with their supposed "independence".

No visits without advance warning where Rubashkin has plenty of time to put on a different display.

We've also seen the secret contracts that Rubashkin makes mashgichim sign that penalizes them with termination & a $5000 fine if they speak to independent rabbonim.

What do the Rubashkins have to hide?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Shmarya, you are mistaken. I am not challenging your right to presume guilt. You can and do, constantly, and not just with Rubashkins but with anyone you oppose. That is your right in our free country.

I am simply calling it what it is. You do not have hard evidence supporting your claims - if you did, charges would have been filed. You have no confirmation that has been judged objectively true. If the day comes when you do your rantings will begin to mean something.

Until then, the only difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that I am constrained by the requirement to stick to the facts, while you feel free to engage in flights of conjecture and inference.

I should point out that the confluence of all these incidents is just thrown around and accepted. In fact many of these issues are unrelated, are presented as willful violation when examination will show only cooperative reform, many of these "issues" are simply standard communication and standard regulatory procedure misrepresented, etc. They are then taken in aggregate and used to vilify the company.

Oh, and Steve, Shmarya can easily debunk your sockpuppeting charge by googling my email address alias. He will find that it is my online alias and has been for quite some time, including on a blog and various 3D computer graphics forums. I know your worldview may not allow for Chassidic people to be involved in things like being literate or technologically cabable, but there you have it.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Archie, if KAJ felt the Kashrus was no good, why did they allow Agriprocessots to continue to produce meat for them until the publicized date?

[Shmarya]

You do not have hard evidence supporting your claims - if you did, charges would have been filed.

Really? So you're an expert on federal law enforcement practices and RICO charges, are you?

There is reams of hard evidence, Getzel, including evidence seized during the raid – and no amount of spinning from you or from your paid flacks can ever change that.

[Jason]

"Incidentally, to my knowledge the certifying agencies do not rely on the management to cover any of their areas of responsibility." -Getzel

From the OU's Kosher Primer:
The butcher must be a person of integrity and the store should be under reliable Rabbinic supervision.

I know you are not here to represent the OU, but the management of the company and its integrity is directly related to the issues here.

Everyone involved is hiding behind someone and the consumer is left without anyone who will take any responsibility. Rubashkins rely on the USDA (whose primary responsibility is NOT to regulate the industry but to promote it) and the kosher certifying agencies. OU hides behinds Weissmandl's supervision and the "integrity" of the Rubashkin family. OU and Weissmandl both hide behind rabbinic rulings that may or may not be accurate and everyone hides behind "loshon hora" and "let the justice system do its job" while Rubashkin-family bag man Milton Balkany pays off Republican politicians to lubricate things for his family's business.

The biggest mystery to me in this whole mess is how the feds came down on these guys in spite of all their donations to the Republican Party. Who did they piss off, or were things so bad that the feds had no choice to act? Or maybe they acted preemptively because the State of Iowa was about to act and everyone involved thought it would be best for the Rubashkins if the Republican controlled executive agencies acted first and protected the family as much as possible. This is all, of course, just conjecture, but in the absence of good information, that is what people will do. That is why the best course for all involved is to come clean here. Things will only look worse when judged in retrospect.

[steve]

Steve: Your assertion that I am "sockpuppeting" based on my quoting Rebecca West is quite the bigoted position. I guess no one who is religious could possibly be intelligent or informed.

I never said that if someone is religious that he can't possibly be intelligent or informed. I don't know what level of religion you're holding, nor what level Getzel is holding. I would like to consider myself a religious Jew who happens to have above average intelligence and is well informed. If I was prejudiced against religious Jews, then I would be prejudging myself as well. I did not base my assumption only based upon your quoting Rebecca West. I find it highly improbable that a Rubashkin family member who works at Agriprocessors, would post on this blog. I was right regarding all the "Norman Greenbaum", "Robert Zimmerman", "Dan Schwartz", and my favorite, "Jonathan Gorn" posts, as well as the Le Marais "Gilad Weinreb" posts. Besides, why should you care what I think? If you were Getzel Rubashkin you should be busy transferring funds to Swiss banks, or planning your father's grand jury testimony, not arguing with a blogger.

[Take The High Road]

I hear that Rubashkin is selling Lubavitch meat from Argentina in order to bolster its output? Anyone have any info on this?

I also hear that David Elliot started to slaughter meat?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Intersecting monologues.

Shmarya: I have no knowledge of what the feds have as far as unreleased evidence goes. I was referring to you and those like you. All you have to go by are inaccurate affidavits, individual statements that may or may not be true, individual statements that may or may not express the truth in terms of context and industry standards etc. You may consider those to be enough, siding with the position that so many people can't be wrong. That is your right.

It is my right to say that you are portraying reality as you would like it to be with disregard for honesty and for the possibility that you there may be another side to the story.

@ Jason's monologue: If you do not trust the current setup of the Kosher industry, the only honest thing to do would be to refrain from eating anything that requires a Hechsher. If you feel reform is needed and you have practical ideas on implementing them, try addressing them to people who can implement those changes. If you have a pragmatic and doable plan to improve the system you can count me in.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

*Laughing* Steve: Damage-Control Mode. Stop repeating your sockpuppet allegations. I gave you a way to verify my identity. Ask Shmarya to check it out. Or check it out yourself. Google Fardak. See if you can find a site with a picture, and compare it to the video at the top of this post. Then ask Shmarya if that is my email address. Ask him to trace the IP address for you.

As for why I care, it's a good question. There's no real good reason, just as there is no reason I'm posting here. But since I decided, for the intellectual exercise, to try to engage in conversation I choose to defend my identity.

[Jason]

I have one practical solution you could get your company to immediately implement that would go a long way to making people feel more comfortable--put glass walls around the killing room and let the public watch what goes on. Granted, even responsible slaughtering operations would prove unpalatable to many people, but there are enough experts who could vouch for what a responsible operation should look like. Then the public could see who was working there, how old they appeared to be, whether they were actually abused, if the animals were slaughtered properly, etc. It is like putting cameras on police cars -- it would be as much for your protection as the public's. If everything is done properly, you would then be able to say that your company is in the right, and no one would be able to argue.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Jason: I agree with you in theory. In practice there may be some issues with that kind of suggestion and I assume a middle ground will be found.

[Jason]

Ok, how about stringing up some webcams? If the company was serious about this, this is something that could be done cheaply tomorrow. But my guess is none of us will ever get to see the inside of the facility, except maybe in some photos put out by the company which may or may not be representative of the typical conditions inside. Please prove me wrong.

[Yochanan Lavie]

At Steve's request, here is my original list or standard Rubashkin excuses (without the later addendums):

1. It's loshon hara/we should dan l'chaf zchut.
2. It is against Daas Torah to question rabbis.
3. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
4. Shmarya just wanted to bag a Rubbishcan babe; it's a vendetta.
5. It's a vast gov't conspiracy.
6. It's anti-Semitism/self-hating Jews
7. Everybody hires illegals, so it's okay.
8. W/O Rubbishcan, the earth will open up and swallow Postville, IA, because its economy will implode ("it's a mitzvah to provide jobs" is a variant).
9. W/O Rubbishcan, no one will be able to find/afford kosher meat, and they'll have to eat treif.
10. Mr. Rubbishcan is a nice guy who gives a lot of tzedakah.
11. Everyone on this blog is a militant vegan.
12. Everyone on this blog is Gay.
13. Everyone on this blog is liberal.
14. It was like that when I got here (oops, that's Bart Simpson's excuse).

Shmarya nicely expanded on #5, so I am copying & pasting his Rashi on it:

1. Dozens of state and federal officials are lying.
2. Dozens of former Agri workers are lying.
3. Current Agri workers are lying,
4. State findings against Agriprocessors were trumped up.
5. Fedral findings against Agriprocessors wer trumped up.
6. Catholic clergy and laypeople are lying.
7. Every non-Orthodox rabbi who has visited Postville is lying.
8. Dozens of newspaper and other media reporters are lying.

(I wish Shmarya would have also listed Area 51 and the Roswell Greys- they're my favorites.)

Getzel has refrained from the ad hominem numbers, which is to his credit. But he still trotted out variations of my numbers: 1, 3, 8, 10 and implicitedly 9. He did it more articulately than my admittedly parodic and sarcastic manner, but "ain chadash tachat hashemesh." I leave it to those who have a better head for details to argue the finer points with Mr. Rubashkin. I am just a gadfly.

[Jason]

Getzel, you should really consider revealing your position with the company. You are obviously under no requirement to do so, but it would help us to evaluate your statements if we knew whether you were on the killing floor, in the shipping office, or in the IT department. Also, perhaps you or Shmarya can educate us as to your place in the Rubashkin family, i.e. are you a family insider who actually knows what is going on inside your family, or are you just fed the same info we are?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Jason: I understood your glass wall suggestion to be a metaphor for indiscriminate transparency. I agree with you that it is unlikely that the public will get a window into the plant, and there are legitimate reasons for that.

Indiscriminate transparency suffers from some of the same problems as democracy, which is why we have a constitutional republic instead of true democracy, and certifying agencies instead of indiscriminate transparency.

Also, "even paranoiacs have enemies."The fact that you dismiss the claim that this is one grand conspiracy does not negate the very real fact that there are people who seek to harm the company.

I assume that after the dust settles the result will be increased transparency, although not the window we would like.

That having been said, there have been and presumably will continue to be walking tours of the plant in which regular members of the public have seen the inside of the plant on a regular operating day.

I have not revealed my position not because I am being secretive. I do not have a position. I recently joined the company and have been spending time in different departments, trying to find my place.

I spent time in the poultry department, planning schedules and analyzing efficiency. (Incidentally, to familiarize myself with the workings of the department I learned the actual jobs, including a stint cutting whole chickens, which I also did after the raid for a while to improve production.) I spent time as a liaison with the Nebraska plant. I did half a dozen other small jobs.

I am Sholom M.'s son and I grew up in Postville. I now live here with my wife and baby daughter.

[Archie Bunker]

"I hear that Rubashkin is selling Lubavitch meat from Argentina in order to bolster its output"

Rubashkin has long had South American operations

"I also hear that David Elliot started to slaughter meat"

They started producing limited amounts of organic beef about 6 months ago.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Yochanan: I assume 1,3, and 8 to be from the second list, in which case you haven't been listening to me.

I have been saying that the reason we have a process for investigating and testifying is because not every statement is reliable, context is important etc. Thus, any source, to be taken seriously, must meet certain criteria.

The stories some of the workers told were taken seriously and investigated. Some of the stories were admittedly not reported to management. I don't have to go through the catalogue - the point is that to claim that someone is operating in good faith in the face of accusations, it is not necessary to charge the accuser with lying.

His story may not indicate that the abuse he experienced was a policy, or that it was ignored or mishandled.

Shmarya writes a list pretending that the only alternative to blaming the management is to call the source a liar. Then you write a list and project those positions on me, portraying my position as ridiculous.

This is simply not the case. There are myriad ways in which an accusation does not damn the accused that are more nuanced and credible then "liar!" That is what I was saying. Recognize the foundations upon which you are building. You have accepted many of these things unquestioningly.

Please, do not insult my intelligence and at least construct a more sophisticated straw man.

I don't believe I mentioned your numbers 9 and 10. Kindly reference those statements.

Incidentally, there are damning inaccuracies in the affidavit. That is a fact. I haven't properly analyzed many other statements but I wouldn't blindly accept them either.

[Archie Bunker]

"if KAJ felt the Kashrus was no good, why did they allow Agriprocessots to continue to produce meat for them until the publicized date?"

I must say I have lost a lot of respect for KAJ the way they whored themselves to Rubashkin. I could offer speculation in various forms as to why they did not drop Rubashkin immediately. Rabbi Yudel Shain thinks at least one reason is due an opinion in halacha which I believe may be attributed to Rav Schwab, (that as long as they can still be somech on rov I suppose) that they need not pull out at once if the kehillah will suffer embarassment.

It's an outrage that KAJ kept collecting Rubashkin's money after Sholom Rubashkin & Weissmandel conspired to get rid of Rav Chaim Kohn. There is speculation among rabbonim that Rubashkin may still be sending a reduced check to KAJ for keeping quiet.

[Archie Bunker]

"Incidentally, there are damning inaccuracies in the affidavit"

I thought Getzel didn't see it? Now he knows he can refute it?

[Getzel Rubashkin]

By the way, I glanced at the first few comments. I somehow missed this but Archie pasted a quote of me from the AP. I was misquoted. I did not blame the raid on anyone. When asked why Agri was targeted my response was to reject the idea that ICE has specifically targeted Agriprocessors, noting that they raided Swift and others. The rest of my response was quoted in the Times.

Basically, I assume they received information that they felt justified a raid and they did their job. I emailed AP about the misquote. My comments were made in the presence of a large group of people with recorders. I assume they can easily prove the quote is inaccurate.

My only mention of "enemies" was, if I remember the question correctly, in response to a question on the magnitude of the public response and press coverage, and I said that there is no shortage of people who benefit from accepting and disseminating the allegations.

I believe I mentioned the UFCW, the immigration reform movements who benefit from portraying illegal immigrants as exploited, and Hechsher Tzedek. There is also the obvious fact that it makes a better story, although I didn't mention that.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The affidavit I am referring to is the one justifying the raid, not the arrest of the supervisors which I have not seen.